1 10 6 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/2bc9851660203e6fe759d0187a9141d0.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=AHXvYmGCaB%7EHMihy2hUbhsoyoRQYwV4Ij1FNdyfl0YWDebreXF75C1Gfl5phjO1tIi6H0cGE1xqLXLf73Vc5b8i00C7muTxikVxUOkHG6HNCHLdiXS81zDXKmE-jxy6rB34Ks-PErnVprFdBKqtghHpnFw3r8zZPfWcZ%7EwjaXTu1x0X9GPFb8l29DbJ7PsyUntOY0LhCatkhgl7q6QxQpJwRfwBxDZujAgIbUuNovhZwQCsoiu754tQamR-z7bWl1qktXOP%7EEF%7E%7EF%7ENPF-nUcmd%7EAYPLEodJdtlQW8od-L89wQr2X%7ER3Wmfc-2DuIPuBQFgwo1J4AaiBy4iMkVcyOA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9101ab6e6bf5ad1573d8339a03071843 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPCION-GOMEZ MARTHA LUCÍA Entrevistadora: MARINA LOPEZ Narradora: MARTHA LUCÍA GOMEZ Fecha de la entrevista: 17 de diciembre, 2012 Lugar: Charleston Duración: 56:47 minutos MARINA LOPEZ: Mi nombre es Marina López, y hoy es 17 de diciembre del año 2012, y estoy con Martha Gómez para hacer una entrevista del proyecto "Voces Latinas del Lowcountry". Martha, ¿te querés presentar? GOMEZ MARTHA LUCÍA: Bueno, buenas tardes, mi nombre es Martha Lucia Gómez y yo soy colombiana y tengo cuarenta y seis años, soy –llevo en los Estados Unidos ya treinta, treinta y dos años, y acá en el Lowcountry, en Charleston, seis años. ML: Y entonces, decís que sos de Colombia, contame un poco de tu familia, de tu infancia. MLG: Nací en Colombia, en América del Sur y soy la tercera de tres hijos, tengo un hermano mayor, una hermana mayor. Mi hermano vive acá en los Estados Unidos también, mi hermana también con su familia, viven en otro lado –mi hermano vive en Carolina del Sur, mi hermana vive en el estado de la Florida. Y estudiamos siempre en colegio católico, mis padres son católicos, mis padres hoy en día viven y viven también aquí en Charleston con nosotros. Estuvimos toda la infancia en colegios católicos, fui a tres colegios diferentes durante toda mi vida, no llegué a terminar el bachillerato en Colombia porque nos tocó viajar acá a los Estados Unidos, y cuando llegué acá terminé mi bachillerato con un GED, hice mi GED acá. Mis padres siempre nos enseñaron a trabajar con la gente y a que viéramos la importancia del servicio. Mis padres eran dueños de unas fábricas y siempre nos involucraron a nosotros desde muy pequeñitos, nos enseñaron a trabajar con ellos, nosotros trabajábamos – yo me recuerdo, eran las 10, 11, 12 AM y nosotros estábamos trabajando con mis papás, mis �Gómez, Martha Lucía 2 papás siempre estaban involucrados en la costura y nosotros les ayudábamos, a mí me encantaba siempre ayudarles en todo eso. Y a medida que ellos fueron avanzando cada vez un poquito más dentro del negocio que ellos tenían, pues nosotros también como hijos fuimos avanzando y aprendiendo diferentes ramas del negocio. Trabajábamos ya un poquito más grandes con turistas que iban a Colombia a comprar artículos de los que mis padres producían en la fábrica, y ahí es donde yo empecé a trabajar y aprender inglés, porque me aprendí a desenvolver con los turistas para venderles. ML: ¿Qué era lo que fabricaban? MLG: Artículos de maletas, chaquetas, todo ese tipo de cosas, y teníamos muchos empleados, eran fácilmente unos 130 empleados, y yo siempre estuve involucrada con el trabajo de fábricas y los empleados, a mí siempre me gustó trabajar con la gente sencilla. Y en las Navidades hacíamos eventos muy grandes porque se hacían eventos para los niños de los empleados y para los empleados, entonces eso era una cocina grandísima y todos teníamos que empacar los regalos para los niños, y se hacía un arbolito de Navidad grande y se repartían los regalitos, se hacía una fiesta para los niños muy bonita. Y tengo recuerdo de eso desde muy pequeñita, siempre, siempre haciendo ese tipo de cosas y trabajando en el servicio, mis padres siempre han estado muy involucrados en el servicio. ML: Así que la vocación para trabajar con la gente te viene desde chiquita a través de los papás y a través de los que ellos te enseñaron a trabajar. MLG: Correcto, sí, uno aprende lo que aprende en la casa, lo va a hacer después un día cuando adulto, unas cosas. ML: ¿Qué fue lo que nos trajo a Estados Unidos? MLG: Se empezaron a presentar muchos problemas en Colombia, en un momento determinado la situación económica se puso muy difícil y creo que ellos perdieron totalmente todo lo que tenían y nos tocó salir del país muy rápido. Llegamos acá y aquí nos tocó empezar a ver qué íbamos a hacer, por un tiempo estuvimos un poco desorientados y finalmente nos establecimos en Miami porque era la ciudad donde mi papá más podía salir adelante debido a que no podía hablar inglés, y en �Gómez, Martha Lucía 3 Miami, tú sabes, todo el mundo habla español, en Miami el español y el inglés es para adelante y para atrás. Entonces ya nos involucramos en Miami, ya empezamos una vida nueva en Miami. ML: ¿Cuántos años tenías cuando te viniste? MLG: A ver, diecisiete, cumplí mis dieciocho años aquí en los Estados Unidos. ML: ¿Cuáles fueron las cosas que te acordás, que te impresionaron como adolescente, las cosas que te gustaron en tu primera impresión de Estados Unidos, las cosas que te resultaron difíciles, cómo fue acostumbrarse a vivir acá? MLG: El sabor de la comida. ML: ¿Eso es bueno o difícil? MLG: Difícil, el sabor de la comida. Pero, sin embargo, fíjate, para mí no fue muy difícil, más difícil fue para mis hermanos y para mis papás. Yo desde muy pequeña siempre tuve mucha ilusión por las cosas americanas. ML: ¿Cómo es eso? MLG: Siempre me gustaban las cosas de los Estados Unidos, y veía mucho la televisión y veía programas americanos y me encantaba lo americano, me encantaba. Entonces cuando llegamos a Estados Unidos, a Miami, empezamos –bueno, andábamos por varios estados y finalmente llegamos a Miami– a mí me encantaba McDonald's, me encantaba Burger King, a mí me encantaba Kentucky Fried Chicken comer salchichas, no me importaba, que no había ajiacos ok, vaya ajiacos, pero a mí todo eso me encantaba. Las máquinas me fascinan, me encanta la limpieza, no me hace falta mucho Colombia. ML: ¿No echaste mucho de menos Colombia? MLG: No, no realmente, salí muy muchacha también, apenas quinto, sexto año y medio de bachillerato, no había todavía establecido raíces, mis hermanos sí ya un poquito más porque ya estaban al nivel universitario, pero yo todavía estaba – ML: ¿Y tus amigos y tu escuela? MLG: No había problema, no había muchos amigos y escuela, pero no había problema. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 4 ML: Como que pudiste desprenderte sin mucha dificultad de las cosas que había en Colombia. ¿Cómo fue que reemplazaron como familia todo este trabajo que ustedes hacían en Colombia con otra gente, de estar involucrados con otra gente, qué pasó con eso? MLG: Pues la inquietud de mis padres toda la vida ha estado, y la capacidad de que ellos tienen de trabajar con las manos y de manufacturación y el coser toda la vida ha estado con ellos, lo que tú aprendes y puedes hacer con las manos, puedes continuar trabajando el resto de tu vida, es una herramienta muy importante. Y cuando llegamos a Miami, buscamos cómo poder conseguir una maquinita de coser y empezamos a desenvolvernos así. Yo empecé a trabajar, Cristina también empezó a trabajar – mi hermana. ML: ¿En qué trabajabas? MLG: Yo trabajaba cuidando una señora americana que estaba muy enfermita de cáncer y eventualmente falleció, en paz descanse, entonces yo trabajaba para cuidarla a ella, acompañarla, y mi hermana trabajaba en un vivero de flores. Y mamá siempre buscó la iglesia, mamá es muy católica, entonces ella siempre buscó la iglesia y por medio de la iglesia y las condiciones en Miami, empezamos a salir, empezamos a salir y empezaron a abrirse caminos y ellos empezaron a poder trabajar, ellos producían forros para biblias, y con los forritos de biblia empezaron a poder defenderse. Mi hermano se regresó porque continuó sus estudios en Colombia y nos quedamos aquí solamente los cuatro, papá, mamá, mi hermana y yo. Y nos fuimos involucrando en la iglesia y nos enamoramos y me casé y ya – ML: Y te enamoraste y te casaste y tienes dos chicos. MLG: Sí, tuve tres, tuve tres chiquitines, mi hijo mayor tiene veinticuatro años, vive hoy en día en la Florida con su papá, mi niña que le sigue, ella falleció en el mismo momento en que ella nació, y después está otra muchachita que tiene hoy en día veintiún años y tengo que ir a buscar ahora, estudia también en la universidad aquí en Carolina del Sur. ML: No se termina de ser mamá nunca. MLG: No, para nada, mi mamá todavía me dice eso. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 5 ML: ¿Qué te trajo de Miami para Carolina del Sur? MLG: A ver, yo me casé muy joven como te comenté, tuvimos tres hijos, desafortunadamente el matrimonio no funcionó, terminamos divorciándonos, entonces era muy difícil para mí porque yo solamente tenía el GED, yo no tenía ningún otro tipo de carrera, y muy difícil luchar ya con dos hijos vivos, con un divorcio y salir adelante. Entonces me fui a vivir con mis papás, me fui a vivir con mis papás el mismo día del huracán Andrew, 18 de marzo de 1992 – no, 25 de agosto de 1992, veinticuatro veinticinco. Y ya me quedé con mis papás, nos apoyamos entre los tres, mi hermana ya se había casado también, nos apoyamos entre los tres con mis dos hijitos y yo seguí echando para adelante lo más que pude. Eventualmente llegué a poder hacer una carrerita y estudiar un poco, pero no fue nada, así como muy fuerte, estaba más preocupada por sostener a mis hijos y por la educación de ellos. Entonces en Miami las cosas se pusieron muy difíciles en el 2004, 2005, y los trabajos se empezaron a perder, la gente se empezó a quebrar. Y yo estaba trabajando en un trabajo muy sólido, llevaba doce años trabajando para esa empresa, pero yo sabía perfectamente que ellos iban a tener que empezar a disminuir personal. Y ya mis hijos estaban adolescentes y dije "Tengo que buscar algo diferente para mis hijos, no puedo seguir en esta situación". Busqué y busqué lo más que pude en Miami, quise buscar un apartamentico porque quería poder separarme de mis padres, ya llevaba muchos años con ellos, y me encontré con que un apartamento para dos habitaciones me costaba más o menos 1,500 a 2,000 dólares rentado, y dije "Imposible, yo no puedo eso". Así que Lisa iba a entrar a high school y estaba saliendo ya de colegio regular, iba a entrar a high school, y yo le tenía mucho miedo, le tengo mucho respeto a los colegios públicos, mis hijos siempre hasta el último momento hice todo el esfuerzo por que fueran a colegio católico, para mí siempre fue muy importante que fueran a colegio católico. Y yo sabía que iba a ser imposible pagar –que Lisa pudiera ir a colegio católico y Francisco también al mismo tiempo a nivel de high school. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 6 Entonces hablé con mi hermano aquí en Carolina del Sur, le comenté lo que estaba pasando, estaba muy angustiada y él me dijo "Aquí están buscando gente que hablé español, vente para acá". Yo no tenía dinero para poder venirme, y mi hermano me dijo "Yo te pago el tren, vente en tren", mi hermano me dijo "Vente una semana", y mi jefe –que en paz descanse, acaba de fallecer– muy querido, me dijo "Yo te pago una semana extra, vete y busca, vete a ver qué sucede". Y me lancé y me vine, y encontré afortunadamente que con el poquito de estudios que había hecho en Miami –yo estudié administración de salud, una pequeña carrerita de dos años– me sirvió para poder abrirme campo aquí porque conocía la terminología médica y conocía un poco sobre el trabajo en una clínica, en un hospital. Entonces hablé, fuimos con mi cuñada que me dio la mano incondicionalmente, fuimos y aplicamos por diferentes posiciones en el hospital de MUSC, y nos encontramos esta posición acá en la clínica. Y tuve la entrevista, no me concretaron 100% que me daban el trabajo pero yo salí muy satisfecha de la entrevista y la jefa, Patricia, estaba muy satisfecha conmigo también. ML: ¿Puedes decir cuál es la clínica, puedes nombrar la clínica? MLG: La clínica se llama MUSC, Children's Care, ¿Ok?, estoy localizada en el área de Charleston, en el área del norte de Charleston, en el área que se llama Northwood, es una clínica de pediatría que tiene el hospital de niños, el hospital de MUSC para pediatría. Entonces tuve esa oportunidad, apliqué, mi hermano me llevó y aplicamos para poder conseguir un préstamo para una casa, jamás me imaginé, pero me lo dieron por ayuda de mi hermano. Y encima de eso yo estuve luchando mucho para que ellos pudieran entrar al colegio católico aquí, aquí hay solamente dos colegios católicos, y entonces fui, apliqué en Bishop England, hice todo lo que me pidieron que hiciera y en una semana me fui con trabajo, con casa y con los dos muchachos puestos en Bishop England. Así que llegué a Charleston el 5– no, el 6 de junio del 2005 y aquí me quedé. ML: Y aquí te quedaste. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 7 MLG: Aquí me quedé, y aquí empecé a trabajar, empecé a trabajar en la clínica el 13 de junio, le medí una semanita para poder organizarme y nos entregaron la casita en enero, durante esos seis meses estuvimos por aquí y por allá con los dos chicos, y ya después en la casita nos fuimos organizando los tres, y estuvimos haciendo nuestra vida. ML: Guau. MLG: Y aquí estamos. ML: Aquí estamos. Contame qué hacés en la clínica. MLG: En la clínica trabajo de todo un poquito, mi posición, mi título es, en español sería ser navegadora de pacientes o representante de los pacientes para servicios a los familiares y a los pacientes. Entonces mi trabajo es básicamente –tengo varias cosas que hago, una, trabajo todos los referidos de los doctores, cada vez que ellos ven a un paciente y necesitan mandarlo a un especialista, me dan el documento a mí, yo hago la cita para el paciente y le informo a la familia y coloco la información en el record del paciente y llevamos unas estadísticas con eso. Luego trabajo también cuando las familias tienen problemas con situaciones de dinero, yo trabajo ayudándoles a hacer –a buscar recursos para poder pagar las necesidades de sus hijitos. Si los pacientes no tienen aseguranza y necesitan medicinas, buscamos las medicinas para esos niños. Mi trabajo más que todo es apoyar, apoyar, apoyar a los médicos, apoyando a las familias para que los niños estén sanos y estén bien. Puedo trabajar al frente en la recepción si es necesario y hago de todo un poquito. ML: ¿Cuáles son los otros poquitos que haces en la clínica? MLG: A ver, me mandaron a un entrenamiento para poder enseñarle a los padres hispanos a ayudarles con la parte de la disciplina de sus hijitos y cómo mejorar las familias la capacidad para ayudar a sus hijitos a crecer con un poco de orden, que la mayoría de las familias que tenemos no lo tienen. Entonces trabajo de uno a uno cuando me hacen referidos para eso, para eso trabajo de uno a uno con la mamá o con el –y con el papá si el papá viene, para poder trabajar con los niños en la casa y poderles ayudar a mejorar su forma de vivir y ese es uno de los poquitos. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 8 ¿Qué más hago?, tengo, también hago un poquito de trabajo –me gusta mucho trabajar con las familias que tienen necesidades especiales, con los niños que tienen problemas de nacimiento, problemas genéticos o problemas de salud que son crónicos. Me encontré, por medio de mi trabajo, de que estos padres hispanos estaban sueltos por el camino y no había quién les ayudara, y me puse a buscar, a buscar, y pudimos buscar un grupito de apoyo para estas familias, empezamos desde septiembre del 2007 y nos venimos reuniendo, les hemos dado bastante educación a los padres, ya saben defenderse, ya no puede hacer la gente con ellos lo que ellos quieran, ellos ya tienen recursos, y han formado una comunidad entre ellos y se apoyan entre unos y otros, y ahí vamos creciendo y dándonos la mano los unos a los otros. ML: Así que tu trabajo se inició como navegadora de pacientes para ayudar con los referidos en la clínica, pero se ha ido extendiendo a dar estos otros servicios que hacían falta en esta población y que no había quién diera. MLG: Correcto. ML: Los trabajos con las familias con chicos con necesidades especiales y las clases para padre, que también las clases para padres en otros lugares hay oportunidad, pero lo de chicos con necesidades especiales, seguramente no hay. MLG: Hasta donde yo tengo conocimiento, es el único grupo que existimos en el área del Lowcountry, que es un grupo para personas con necesidades especiales, pero es un grupo de apoyo para los padres, no es un grupo de –es un grupo de apoyo, sí, para los niños, por supuesto, y los hermanitos, pero el apoyo principal es los padres. ML: Es a la familia. MLG: A la familia. Es que sepan cómo defenderse en el sistema americano, en los hospitales americanos, en les escuelas americanas, cuando la mayoría de esa gente no tiene ni el menor conocimiento porque en sus países no tienen esas cosas – ML: ¿De cuántas familias estamos hablando, Martha? MLG: El grupo en este momento puede tener más o menos unas cincuenta y cinco familias. ML: Y me decías que las cosas son cuadros crónicos que tienen los chicos, como síndrome de Down. MLG: Sí, tengo niños con –tenemos niños con síndrome de Down, hay niños �Gómez, Martha Lucía 9 ciegos, hay niños con cáncer, hay niños con epilepsia, hay niños con autismo, hay niños que nacieron sin una partecita del cuerpo, sin bracitos, sin manos, hay niños que están en sillas de ruedas, niños que no pueden hablar, niños que son sordos, niños que tienen aparatitos para poder –en el estómago– para poder comer porque no pueden comer nada por la boca, niños que tienen problemas muy serios genéticos y entonces no es solamente una cosa sino que pueden ser dos o tres problemas los que tienen físicamente el niño. Y es muy difícil para estos padres que en su vida se imaginaron tener un hijo con estas condiciones, poder ser papá y mamá de un niño así, en un sistema donde no es tu idioma y en una ciudad donde no conoces. Y muchas veces ni siquiera saben a qué derechos tienen. ML: ¿Cuáles son las barreras que tú ves más a menudo que las familias tienen para acceder al cuidado o a los servicios, ¿cuáles son las barreras a los que se enfrentan, el idioma, dijiste, de estar en un lugar que no conocen? MLG: El idioma, discriminación. ML: ¿Qué tipo de discriminación? MLG: Discriminación, por ejemplo, tengo una familia que tiene tres niños con una misma enfermedad, y recién la semana pasada me estaban comentando de que le llamaron de una oficina donde le dan asistencia del gobierno y la persona que le estaba asistiendo se reía y le decía "Aquí está cogiendo el dinero porque usted lo necesita pero es imposible que usted tenga tres niños con esa situación, esto es una mentira, esto es imposible, que no puedo creer que usted tenga tres hijos que tengan esto", y por supuesto esta señora estaba traumatizada, y le dije "No te preocupes, tenemos todos los documentos médicos que le van a hacer a esta otra persona cerrar la boca. Pero se encuentran cosas de ese tipo, con cosas muy dolosas. Tengo niños con problemas de espina bífida, y los niños que tienen problemas de espina bífida pueden tener el problema que no pueden controlarse para poder ir al baño, y tengo un niño bello que en la escuela y sus compañeros se burlan de él y las personas adultas le están haciendo la vida imposible a la mamá porque el niño se ensucia, y no lo quieren limpiar, y entonces el niño está sufriendo mucho, y no hay derecho. ML: ¿La discriminación es hacia la enfermedad, hacia la diferencia? MLG: A veces hacia la enfermedad y a veces hacia el hecho de que son latinos, y �Gómez, Martha Lucía 10 creen que porque son latinos no tienen cómo defenderse, entonces pueden pasar por encima de ellos y hacer con ellos lo que quieran. Lo que no saben es que estos latinos ya están muy bien entrenados. ML: Y en eso el grupo debe ser – MLG: Y en eso yo trabajo permanentemente con ellos, pero – ML: Debe ser instrumental para que la gente se sienta segura, para que la gente sepa de sus derechos, porque cuando la gente no sabe de sus derechos, también debe ser una barrera, ¿No? MLG: Sí, sí, y todos tienen un gran temor que "Porque yo no soy americano, no tengo derecho", y el que tiene derecho es el niño que es ciudadano americano. E incluso muchas veces el niño que aunque no sea ciudadano americano pero por ser niño, tiene derechos en algunas cosas en este país, como por ejemplo la educación, a ningún niño, aunque no sea ciudadano americano le pueden negar la educación en los Estados Unidos, o sea que todos los niños a partir de los cinco, cuatro añitos de edad, tienen la obligación de ir a la escuela con o sin ser ciudadano americano o con o sin ser una persona completamente sanita o con la persona con la dificultad física que pueda tener. ML: Me dijiste que viniste en el 2005 para Carolina del Sur y has estado trabajando todos estos siete años aquí en la clínica. MLG: En la clínica, sí señora. ML: ¿Cómo has visto los cambios en el servicio a la población o cómo la gente ha sufrido o cómo tú has sufrido en tu trabajo con los cambios en las leyes de inmigración?, ¿Cómo afectó eso tu trabajo? MLG: Muchísimo. ML: ¿Por qué? MLG: Muchísimo, especialmente en el año, yo creo que en 2011 y en el 2012 fueron dos años de mucho dolor, nosotros vivimos mucho aquí en la clínica, los doctores, las enfermeras, en la parte administrativa nosotros vivimos el dolor de muchas familias, mucha inseguridad, mucho miedo. Todavía hay miedo, no se ha eliminado. ML: ¿Miedo a qué? �Gómez, Martha Lucía 11 MLG: Miedo a que sean detenidos por la policía y que sean deportados, a que pierdan sus hijos, a perder lo poquito que han podido organizar acá en los Estados Unidos y que no lo puedan llevarse esas cositas a su tierra. Miedo a regresar a unos países donde ya llevan bastante tiempo están ellos afuera y que no encuentren trabajo, no puedan salir adelante. Al nivel de violencia que existen en los países donde ellos vienen. Miedo a ser metidos en la cárcel y a que su familia se queden los niños sin sus esposas, se queden solo sin ayuda, les da mucho miedo a los papás. Los niños tienen miedo, los niños –a veces he escuchado de familias que dicen que los niños con el sólo escuchar un carro de la policía viniendo, bomberos, se esconden debajo de las sillas en el carro. Conozco también familias que con mucha angustia vienen a pedir documentos permanentemente por parte de los médicos para que les puedan ayudar, a ver si eso les ayuda a que se puedan quedar acá, no quieren regresarse. Y también sé familias de las que ya se han regresado, que están sufriendo mucho porque sus hijitos no tienen el completo conocimiento del español para poder entrar a las escuelas latinas, y entonces están sufriendo una tremenda discriminación allá también, porque tampoco caben allá los niños, los niños son más americanos que latinos, y entonces están sufriendo los niños. Sé de muchos –muchas veces tuvimos oportunidades que en la clínica no llegaba nadie. Pocos, tres, cuatro pacientes en un día, y nosotros "Pero, ¿Qué pasó?", y cuando nos enterábamos, había acabado de suceder una redada por el Wal-Mart o por Stall Road, o por Redbank Road, y todo el mundo se escondía, la gente se escondía. Mucha gente fueron y los sacaron, golpeando por la puerta de su casa y los sacaron de la cama y los niños vieron esto y eso afectó mucho a los niños. Nosotros tenemos muchos niños aquí en la clínica a quienes ha tocado darles servicios psicológicos con el trauma de lo que han vivido. Y las mujeres ni se diga, muchas mujeres embarazadas y sufriendo mucho y se han tenido que juntar muchas familias donde los hombres han tenido que salir del país a la fuerza. Se han juntado tres y cuatro mujeres con niños en un sólo tráiler a tratar de �Gómez, Martha Lucía 12 defenderse y ayudarse, e incluso lastimosamente hay mujeres que han tenido que prostituirse para poder salir adelante, y si no hubieran pasado por eso, nunca lo hubieran hecho. Y los niños están viendo todo esto, y los niños tienen dolor por eso, tienen mucho dolor, tienen angustia, y eso es lo que vemos. Vemos también muchos niños enfermos físicamente pero que no eran enfermedades físicas, sino enfermedades emocionales. ML: ¿A raíz de estos problemas también? MLG: A raíz de toda la angustia que han estado viviendo. Ahorita la cosa está un poco más calmada, ya no hay tanta angustia y tanto temor, sí existe el temor, pero no tanto como hubo en un momento determinado. ML: ¿Cómo te afectó eso personalmente, ¿cómo te afectó la angustia de esta gente?, porque yo me imagino, 2005, estás trabajando con los problemas regulares de la clínica, con los problemas regulares de la población y de pronto hay como un pico de angustia en la comunidad en general, y más problemas que los que generalmente tenías, ¿Cómo te afectó eso personalmente?, o profesionalmente. MLG: Personal y profesionalmente me forzó cada vez más a prepararme más para poder encontrar lo que la comunidad necesitaba. ML: ¿De qué manera? MLG: Me di cuenta de que la gente confía mucho en mí, y la gente me busca, y no puedo fallarles. Entonces para no poder fallarles y para poder hacer las cosas correctamente, tanto a nivel de poder servirles a ellos como también representando el hospital de niños y hospital universitario de MUSC y los doctores y todo, tengo que permanentemente hacer un gran –ni siquiera es un esfuerzo, lo hago porque me gusta– pero aprender, leer, buscar, conectarme con gente que pueda ayudarlos. Lo que a mí eso me forzó mucho fue a tener una sensibilidad especial con esas familias, a comprender los dos lados de la moneda, porque toda la vida tiene dos lados de la moneda, siempre pienso si ocurrió una cosa, el otro lado también está sufriendo, porque mientras que yo estudiaba en el college, ya cuando llegué acá ya pude empezar a estudiar aquí en Charleston, también tuve oportunidad de hablar con personas y recibir clases con personas que estaban teniendo que ver con todos estos trabajos, que estaban �Gómez, Martha Lucía 13 afectando a estas familias. Y viendo el lado de ellos como trabajadores del gobierno teniendo que hacer estos procesos, lo que ellos estaban sufriendo y por lo que ellos estaban viviendo y cómo les estaba afectando a ellos también. ML: ¿Qué tipo de trabajo, Martha? MLG: Oficiales, oficiales, también tuve trabajo con gente profesionales que trabajan en el área de trabajadoras sociales en el departamento de protección de niños, también con gente de leyes, que los traían para las clases donde yo estaba estudiando a hablar sobre determinados temas y yo siempre metía la cucharada y andaba sobre el problema de Miami –de Charleston, perdón– y el problema de los latinos, yo siempre hago que la gente tenga consciencia sobre la situación de los latinos porque me preocupaba por lo que estoy viviendo aquí. Entonces me hizo amar más lo que hago y sentir más responsabilidad por lo que hago. Me preocupa darles seguridad y me preocupa darles apoyo y, sobre todo, lo que siempre les he dicho, es "La clínica donde nosotros estamos y donde ustedes traen a sus hijos es un sitio seguro para ustedes, o sea que el problema que ustedes tengan, ustedes pueden venir a pedir ayuda aquí, nosotros aquí no tenemos nada que ver con los problemas de migración". Yo siempre he tenido un lema personal y lo he compartido con los doctores, es que cuando ayudamos a una –si ayudamos a un adulto, estamos ayudando y estableciendo una estabilidad– quitándole una inestabilidad a un niño. Y la salud de los niños, el bienestar de los niños empieza por el bienestar de los padres, quienes son responsables y adultos y viene con ese niño, tienen que poder hacer lo mejor que pueden hacer en un ambiente de paz, ellos también necesitan seguridad. Entonces hay que velar también por los adultos para que los niños puedan crecer bien. ML: Así que si te entiendo bien, cuando todos estos problemas surgieron, una manera en que encontraste para responder a lo que estaba pasando era formarte más, conectarte con otra gente, buscar soluciones por otra parte, ¿Cuáles piensas que son los recursos que están disponibles para los trabajadores de la salud mental, la gente que �Gómez, Martha Lucía 14 trabaja en la clínica, en el escritorio, la gente que se encuentra con esta gente todo el tiempo, los pacientes, los oficiales, cuáles son los recursos que hay disponibles para los profesionales, para los trabajadores para procesar la angustia y el dolor que ha vivido esta población en este tiempo? MLG: Para mí, yo pienso que lo más importante es primero que nos demos cuenta de que tenemos ese dolor, y una vez que nos damos cuenta de que tenemos ese dolor, podemos verbalizarlo y al verbalizarlo podemos empezar a buscar ayuda. Pienso que, en el área de nosotros, por ejemplo, en el hospital en el MUSC, tenemos varios recursos para los empleados si es que existe una situación como esa, tenemos recursos dentro de nosotros mismos, por ejemplo, aquí en la clínica los doctores han tenido momentos donde han tenido mucho dolor y angustia al ver las situaciones de determinadas familias, y entonces nosotros conversamos entre nosotros. Nosotros utilizamos ratitos para que ellos puedan compartir lo que están viviendo y entonces entre todos aportando un poquito el uno al otro, nos ayudamos y nos apoyamos. Yo también he tenido momentos de dolor y he tenido que ir allá y sentarme con ellos y "Me pasó esto y esto y esto" sin decir específicamente nombres por el derecho a la privacidad, pero podemos hablar sobre el dolor que nosotros mismos tenemos, el problema que estamos viviendo. Pienso que, para la parte de los oficiales, una de las cosas que yo pregunté – porque eso es una de las cosas que pregunté en las clases de social work, de trabajo social – ellos también tienen los recursos, como nosotros en el hospital, para poder hablar con personas profesionales de salud mental para poder desahogar el dolor y las angustias que tienen. Y también creo que el poder comprender de que ellos están haciendo su trabajo y no es nada personal contra quien lo están haciendo, eso también creo que les ayuda. Y la parte espiritual también, ¿No?, la parte espiritual en la gente creo que es algo muy importante, no importa la religión que tengan, pero la parte espiritual siempre es un medio de desahogo. ML: En tu caso. MLG: En el mío y en el de la mayoría de la gente, todos de una forma o de otra �Gómez, Martha Lucía 15 algo tenemos que buscarnos un apoyo espiritual sin importar cuál sea la religión. ML: ¿Has visto algún cambio en las familias que vienen a la clínica a partir de la posibilidad de los chicos, de los adolescentes a aplicar por derecho de trabajo y por estadía? MLG: Mucha felicidad, paz, porque por fin algunos de ellos ya están recibiendo sus papeles y están pudiendo sacar sus licencias de manejar, entonces ahora son esos muchachos los que están manejando a sus padres, ya no son los padres los que están manejando, entonces no los pueden parar y frenar porque no tengan licencia de manejar. Claro, les está cayendo una tremenda responsabilidad a los chicos, pero felicidad de ver de que sus hijos tienen una oportunidad. ML: ¿No tienen miedo que el programa ha sido solamente por dos años, que no se sabe qué va a pasar después de aquí? MLG: No, no, para nada, dicen, no es algo que están preocupados, ellos tienen fe, tienen fe de que algo bueno va a pasar. ML: Ok, y ¿la gente se ha presentado para – MLG: Sí, muchísima. ML: ¿Cómo sabe? MLG: Porque me vienen a pedir ayuda, me vienen a pedir información, nos vienen a pedir a nosotros papeles. Nosotros para la aplicación del Dream Act, la familia tiene que presentar documentos de cuando los niños han estado –desde cuándo han estado donde han estado, y a cada rato nos piden a nosotros cartas, nosotros somos los médicos, así que nos piden cartas con información y se han tenido que hacer muchas cartas, lo cual es una gran alegría. Y los muchachos ven alegría –los muchachos cuando por fin "Ya, aquí está, ya, no soy un criminal más, ahora ya tengo papeles, ya no me pueden llevar a la cárcel, voy a estudiar, voy a poder trabajar, tengo un número de seguro social", es absolutamente maravilloso, y los padres felices, felices de ver que sus hijos pudieron salir. ML: ¿Y me imagino que, así como la tremenda angustia cuando la gente es deportada te afecta en el trabajo, de pronto compartir esta alegría también? MLG: Es precioso, es preciosos, y también he visto algunos casos en donde la �Gómez, Martha Lucía 16 situaciones, aunque han tenido problemas con la policía las familias, ha sido todo un proceso, donde las familias han podido luchar por medio de abogados y ellos también han podido conseguir papeles, y al poder conseguir papeles he tenido más de uno y una que recién reciben un papel, y lo primero que hacen es venir "Señora Martha, señora Martha, mire, ya me llegó el permiso de trabajo", "Mire, me llegó la residencia", "Mire, ya puedo ir a sacar mi licencia de manejar, señora Martha", eso es absolutamente hermoso. ML: ¿Qué te cuenta la gente? ¿Cuál es la diferencia que hace para la gente tener un permiso de trabajo o tener el permiso para trabajar? ¿Por qué les cambia tanto la vida? MLG: Porque dejan de sentirse que están perseguidos, se sienten gente, regresa la dignidad, ya no tienen miedo y pueden ir a trabajar con su nombre y pueden empezar a ser respetados como se lo merecen. Eventualmente podrán estudiar algo, pueden –saben que ya no los pueden botar, ya no los pueden– tienen que hacer ellos algo verdaderamente en contra de la ley para que sean tratados como estaba siendo, tratados anteriormente, pero algo porque ellos hicieron algo grave, entonces se lo buscaron. De la otra forma, están siempre escondidos, incognitos, invisibles, "Vivo, pero no vivo", "Existo, pero no existo", "No soy nadie", y eso es tremendo. Y los niños saben que sus papás viven así y las consecuencias de eso las veremos más adelante porque se verá, nada se queda quieto. ML: ¿Cuáles son las cosas te gustaría cambiar la población que trabaja, que viene aquí a recibir servicio en la clínica? MLG: ¿En qué sentido? ML: Las cosas que le facilitaría la vida a la gente, las cosas que mejorarían en el servicio. MLG: ¿De parte de nosotros hacia ellos o de parte de la sociedad hacia ellos? ML: Las dos cosas. MLG: Para qué pregunto. Ok, de parte de nosotros hacia ellos, yo creo que las familias reciben un buen trato aquí en la clínica, las familias se sienten satisfechas y se sienten –se sienten felices y tranquilas, aunque a veces hay problemas, por supuesto, nadie es perfecto, no hay ninguna institución perfecta. Pero en general saben que aquí vienen y sus niños son tratados, son cuidados, son �Gómez, Martha Lucía 17 respetados y son apreciados, son queridos. Eso es importante para uno como padre. En la sociedad, me encantaría poder ver de que todas estas personas dejen de sentirse perseguidas y con miedo, que se les dé la oportunidad que busquen una forma de poder trabajar decentemente porque no quieren trabajar indecentemente, honestamente, donde paguen taxes y donde ellos no se quieren quedar de por vida aquí, ellos quieren estar aquí por un tiempito nomás. Y que puedan ser seres humanos, pienso que eso sería muy importante. Y no solamente para los latinos, yo me imagino también que las personas que vienen de otros países, que también están bajo esa presión, personas europeas, personas del Asia, todos están bajo la misma sombrilla, lo que pasa es que nosotros somos latinos y hablamos de los latinos, pero los europeos también están viviendo lo mismo y no es justo. No es justo solamente aquí, no es justo en cualquier parte del mundo, todo el mundo debería poder tener derechos de a donde estuviese, de poder vivir, trabajar y ganarse una vida de una forma honrada sin tener que tener miedo de que lo van a perseguir y que lo poquito que tenga se lo van a quitar, y que sus hijos corren peligro de ser cogidos por el gobierno. Eso sería lo justo, pero ese es el mundo perfecto, esa es la utopía. ML: Esa es la utopía. Recién me estabas diciendo que parte de tu estrategia para darte vuelta, para lidiar con el hecho del dolor y las dificultades de este trabajo ha sido que te has empezado a preparar más. MLG: Correcto. ML: Entonces contame cuáles son tus esperanzas, tus expectativas a nivel profesional, qué es lo que querés hacer. MLG: Bueno, trabajar más con el grupo de apoyo y ya trabajaba –porque tengo dos trabajos, trabajo aquí en la clínica, pero también trabajo en el hospital de MUSC como intérprete los sábados y domingos. Y me encuentro con muchas situaciones permanentemente, entonces empecé porque quería estudiar enfermería, siempre me encantó la enfermería, "Voy a estudiar enfermería, voy a estudiar enfermería" pero me casé, no pude estudiar enfermería, tuve �Gómez, Martha Lucía 18 hijos, "No es el momento para estudiar". Empecé a coger algunas clases, dije "Voy a estudiar Psicología", hice unas clases pero nunca me gradué, la vida se me dificultó, me divorcié, traté de seguir estudiando algo un poquito más, y entonces tuve una linda, linda profesora que me dijo – en inglés me dijo "The name of the game is to earn a skill", "El nombre del juego en este momento de tu vida es que aprendas una cosa que te capacite", entonces dije "Computación, me voy a aprender cómo ser secretaria, voy a tener que poder saber cómo ser una buena secretaria". Entonces cogí unas clasecitas en computación, y después dije "Ay, me encanta la psicología", y me seguí yendo por el área de la psicología, al final no me gradué, gasté un poco de plata, gasté un poco de –no gasté tiempo porque lo que aprendí ahí está y lo estoy aprovechando, pero no me llegué a graduar. Pasó la vida, no pude seguir estudiando, me tuve que poner a trabajar, trabajar, trabajar, y de pronto mi mamá insistió, insistió y entonces me metí en una carrerita rápida por las noches que pues saqué la – administración de servicios de salud, ahí me gradué. Pero entonces me vine para Charleston y no me podía graduar porque me faltaban 100 horas de servicio comunitario, es lo único que me faltaba. Entonces cuando empecé a trabajar en la clínica, le compartí a mi supervisora y ella me dijo "Pero tú tienes el español, tú tienes el español, vete al hospital a ver si te dejan ser voluntaria en el hospital hablando español". Y me conecté y me dieron la oportunidad y aprendí a ser intérprete. Y entonces sigue, pero tengo que estudiar algo, yo quiero estudiar algo, yo sé que tengo que estudiar algo porque algún día mis hijos no van a estar conmigo y yo tengo que ver con mi vida. Entonces me puse a buscar, a buscar, a buscar qué puedo hacer que sea rápido, qué puedo hacer que me dé la oportunidad, y me encontré con una carrera en el Trident, en el college acá en Charleston. Trident Technical College que se llama Human Services, servicios humanos. Y es un trabajo que me capacitó muchísimo, una carrera que me capacitó muchísimo para trabajar haciendo lo que estoy haciendo, porque es prácticamente aprender a ayudar a la gente, saber cómo escuchar los problemas, saber a dónde recurrir �Gómez, Martha Lucía 19 cuando algo se presenta y saber qué es lo que tienes que hacer. Me dio mucha formación, me gradué, pero sabía perfectamente que no me podía quedar ahí, sabía perfectamente que con el asociados no hago nada en la vida y ya no soy una niña, ya mis hijos estaban afuera de la casa. Entonces busqué y sabía perfectamente que quería continuar con el servicio, servicio, servicio, me encanta mucho trabajar lo que es el case management, lo que es el manejar el caso de una familia y ayudarlos a orientarlos todo el tiempo hasta que cumplen las metas que tienen. Entonces investigué y en Charleston no había ningún sitio donde yo pudiera encontrar lo que quería, yo quería estudiar para ser trabajadora social. Finalmente encontré este college que se llama Limeston College, es el único donde se ofrece en Charleston yendo a clase la carrera de trabajadora social y estoy haciendo mi bachelors para social worker en este momento y ya estoy bastante – gracias a Dios, ya estoy bastante avanzada y si puedo en algún día, porque tengo que ver cómo lo puedo hacer, haré también el masterado en trabajo social, porque con el bachelors tampoco se hace nada, tienes que tener el Master para que seas algo. Pero no, definitivamente aun hasta donde yo estoy en este momento, todo lo que he estudiado, lo que he aprendido, lo que he visto, el trabajo que he hecho con la gente y el trabajo que he hecho en las dos universidades, las horas de prácticas que he tenido que hacer, me ha dado mucha formación para poder hacer lo que hago definitivamente. Y para trabajar con las familias de los niños también uno tiene que tener mucho – del grupo, tú no puedes abrir un grupo sin saber qué estás haciendo, es mucha responsabilidad, entonces logré finalmente establecer –establecimos el grupo, no lo hice yo, lo hicimos varias personas, establecimos el grupo cuando ya yo había pasado por las clases de lo que son técnicas de formación de grupos y cómo trabajar con los grupos, qué hacer con cada grupo y si vamos a hacerlo de una forma educativa, qué vamos a hacer, y las reglas del juego en un grupo. Y eso me ha ayudado, me ayuda. ML: Si tuvieras que decirle algo a la gente que no tiene experiencia trabajando con gente inmigrante, que no tiene experiencia trabajando con gente que hable en otro idioma, ¿Cuál sería el mensaje que te gustaría pasar? MLG: Que abran el corazón, simplemente abre el corazón y escucha, porque no �Gómez, Martha Lucía 20 importa de dónde venga la persona, el idioma que tenga la persona, todos tenemos una historia y todos tenemos una necesidad. Y no debemos tener prejuicios, hay que abrir el corazón y escuchar, y hoy pueden ser ellos y mañana podemos ser nosotros porque nadie de que vamos a estar toda la vida en un sólo sitio, sobretodo más hoy en día en donde la gente más viaja y vive en otros lados diferentes de donde nació. Y hoy la gente viene para Estados Unidos pero de pronto la gente de Estados Unidos tiene que salir de aquí para ir para otros lados. Yo tuve que salir de Colombia y nunca en mi vida mis papás se imaginaron que iban a tener de su país, llegamos a un sitio donde se podía hablar el español, pero también fuimos emigrantes, somos emigrantes. Y es simplemente abrir el corazón. ML: Ok. Muchísimas gracias, ¿Hay algo que te gustaría decir que no te he preguntado? MLG: Que continúen con el trabajo que están haciendo porque algún día va a ser muy interesante mirar para atrás, va a ser muy interesante mirar para atrás y gracias por la oportunidad de hacer esto, nunca ni siquiera me imaginé poder llegar a hacer algo como lo que estamos haciendo ahorita. Es una gran bendición y es un gran honor poder trabajar sirviendo a otras personas, es una gran responsabilidad y simplemente tenemos que ser sensibles y no juzgar, no podemos juzgar a nadie porque no sabemos nunca por qué los demás pasan o viven por lo que viven. Eso es todo. ML: Muchísimas gracias. MLG: Gracias a ti. ML: Muchísimas gracias. Ok. Guau. MLG: ¿Terminó? ML: Sí. MLG: Ahora, mi mami me ha llamado como 100 veces. ML: ¿Es tu mamá la que estaba llamando? MLG: "Te fuiste a Colombia y no me has dicho nada". ML: Ok, imagínese. �Gómez, Martha Lucía 21 MLG: Tres llamadas. ML: Tres llamadas de tu mamá. Fin de la grabación. Editado ML 8 de abril, 2019 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/da2a0b0780259d235c76d57958ea4e5d.mp3?Expires=1789603200&Signature=K1e2ChOg1PW4W6e5boHlRqiJJjH5GCDpAhejAFGzPlHcL2izuJY2L5NiCcEz27VGHx0lLDS3TRR0rA6SOXC998aavK7YOt4DVBh2JkMz1zbB%7EoGAUrSIz-wkOeYEId75unEtxoQKyKqEiP8e-iUY0s3yhM7%7EBrfyb1EFvwYDzk-9zwDBj-d5WyaHhfNSduP3BQHEZi66J24F06dsK1G%7EcHvH2LE%7ESooDyNpaIhP6n9UKBIWy39wnwUb6pIXQFlRDISY%7EB0G7-PyX31JYpdYN6DguVB6htd2WR-LXlJQCoVaPKvPQAoEHgUtWMojHOrYHhibPrrkZaAgj8YB%7EdDQ9Yw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 01b7de16030f8587096db46aca04550d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marina López Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martha Lucía Gómez Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 57 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of Martha Lucía Gómez, interviewed by Marina López, 17 December, 2012 Subject The topic of the resource Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Latin Americans--Southern States Hispanic Americans--Southern States community leaders Description An account of the resource Martha Gómez (1966) was born and lived in Bogotá, Colombia until she was sixteen when, due to a severe economic crisis, her family moved to the United States and settled in Miami, Florida. Gomez states that her parents, devout Catholics, raised their three children in the faith and taught them the importance of service to others. In the interview, Gomez says she had no problems adapting to the American culture for which she was attracted to as a child. She got married very young and then divorced. As a single mother with a boy and a girl, she set about working to provide for them. In 2005, encouraged by her brother who lived in Charleston, she decided to try her luck in South Carolina. She got a job at MUSC to work at the Northwoods pediatric clinic serving a mostly Spanish-speaking population. In the interview, Gómez explains her functions in the clinic as a translator, patient navigator, and parent educator. She states that the first and only support group for Spanish-speaking families with children with special needs meets monthly at the clinic. She reflects on the importance of implementing services that respond to the needs of the community, providing a place where families feel safe, and the consequences of immigration policies on the health of families. Finally, Gómez says that having achieved job stability and with her children now grown-up, she has been able to focus on her postponed dream: she has resumed her studies with the goal of graduating with a master degree in social work.<br /><br /><p>Martha Gómez (1966) nació y vivió en Bogotá, Colombia hasta los dieciséis años cuando debido a una fuerte crisis económica su familia emigró a Estados Unidos y se estableció en Miami, Florida. Gómez afirma que sus padres, católicos devotos, educaron a sus tres hijos en la fe y les enseñaron la importancia del servicio al prójimo. En la entrevista, Gómez cuenta que no tuvo problemas para adaptarse a la cultura americana por la que se sentía atraída desde niña. Se casó muy joven y luego se divorció. Como madre soltera, madre de un niño y una niña, se abocó a trabajar para sacarlos adelante. En el año 2005, alentada por su hermano que residía en Charleston, decidió probar suerte en Carolina del Sur. Inmediatamente consiguió trabajo en MUSC para trabajar en la clínica pediátrica Northwoods sirviendo a una población mayoritariamente hispanohablante.  En la entrevista, Gómez explica sus funciones en la clínica como traductora, coordinadora de servicios y educadora para padres. También reflexiona acerca de la importancia de servicios diseñados para responder a las necesidades de la comunidad; entre ellos el primer grupo de apoyo para familias hispanohablantes con niños con necesidades especiales; la importancia de proveer un lugar donde las familias se sientan seguras y las consecuencias de las políticas migratorias en la salud de las familias.  Finalmente, Gómez cuenta que habiendo logrado una mayor estabilidad laboral y con sus hijos grandes ha podido enfocarse en su sueño postergado: ha retomado los estudios con el objetivo de obtener el título de Trabajadora Social.</p> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Las Voces del Lowcountry Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource Spanish Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/781 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/645a1307a93e8a15895f4ba776587366.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=eSpfoof-jbkQ1mraU4nWQvIUqXG1QLnBw1hsdmmdjppIrHFbMIhSM3Bt4KddeAZiuW5UG45ugq1eYa13bxxftx%7Ej-aRNSZFUAs1F9G%7EXWFnGbfUikv%7EI12vK4W-z-2pfcNSZAnbuvC8kvvq92nv4SoIs26OaC4Dz2OYhq23ykGVI2Up0Hi7ZxTN0ThVcLiESV8ug2JmiyJWuGpC%7EGSKBYQZEP%7EroGZWT-C45GeHu1OBs0lk3on89-kWai5iBKT%7EBmuSMEIRsbn9x266HcmjH7--bSGfSzgjJsW-Ufdo2eP4zNCSRK7tn9t-Fc3RWkElbDUyzzy-cT2n7LL61311abg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 97ce3def2c3f05169991e2b84dbc0e2a PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPCION - MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA Narradora: MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA Entrevistadora: MARINA LÓPEZ Fecha: 29 de junio, 2016 Lugar: Mount Pleasant, SC Duración: 69 minutes MARINA LÓPEZ: Hoy es 29 de junio del año 2016 y estoy de vuelta con María Asunción Salinas, buen día María. MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA: Buenos días. ML: La semana pasada cuando estábamos conversando me contaste de tu infancia en Chile, de tu vida en la universidad, cuando te enamoraste de Carlos [Salinas]y hasta que se vinieron a vivir a Estados Unidos y habíamos terminado justamente cuando una de las oportunidades que habías tenido de trabajo aquí, era irte a New York y entonces me estabas contando que habías ido a New York por tres meses y también que parte de ese viaje había sido cuando te habías comunicado con la comunidad chilena, que en ese momento se estaba organizando para responder a el golpe de estado en Chile y lo que había pasado, así que esta mañana tal vez nos toca concentrarnos en tu vida en Estados Unidos, cómo ha sido el proceso de acostumbrarte a vivir aquí con tus hijos profesionalmente, por ahí vamos a empezar. MAC: Bueno, al principio fue más fácil, cuando estábamos en Johns Hopkins en Baltimore, vino una amiga nuestra que se hizo cargo de nosotros, es decir, ella cocinaba, cuidaba los niños y se vino acá un par de meses y luego se fue, ahí es donde se puso la vida más complicada porque bueno, primero yo no era de las muy buenas cocineras y �Maria Asuncion Cordova 2 menos dueña de casa, porque siempre me creía poco menos que me iba a ganar el premio nobel, entonces para mí el trabajo era muy importante, pero bueno, salimos adelante, los niños iban a un colegio relativamente cerca del MUSC porque en ese tiempo yo trabajé en MUSC por varios años, haciendo investigación. ML: ¿Qué tipo de investigación hacías María? MAC: Hacía neurofisiología y siempre tratando de orientarla hacia la boca, cabeza y cuello, pero no siempre me resultaba, así que estuve trabajando en trauma en gatos, ahora me duele el alma pensar en lo que hacía con esos pobres gatos, y en ratas y en fin. ML: ¿Por qué no? Porque Carlos tu marido estaba trabajando en la escuela de odontología. ¿Verdad? ¿Por qué no trabajabas también tú practicando odontología? MAC: Lo que pasa que ninguno de los dos podíamos practicar ML: Ah... cuéntame. MAC: No, no podíamos ni siquiera tocar un paciente y de hecho Carlos en investigación, empezó a hacer unas plaquitas que yo a veces hacía cuando él no estaba para los niños, con paladar fisurado, labio leporino y el paladar también abierto y de hecho casi tuvo problemas con el board, porque se metía en la boca de un paciente, entonces lo que hicimos fue, la universidad tenía un programa que apareció por casualidad, en el que permitía que los faculty members o sea los miembros de la facultad, pudieran estudiar en su tiempo de trabajo unas ciertas horas, se llamaba upgrade movility, que era como para mejorar su standard en cuanto a la academia. ML: ¿Y entonces para qué los habían contratado a ustedes, cuando a Carlos lo invitan? �Maria Asuncion Cordova 3 MAC: Para hacer investigación. ML: Para hacer investigación solamente. MAC: Carlos estudiaba genética, él de hecho examinaba pacientes, pero no hacía nada que tuviera que ver con tratamiento, solamente exámenes. ML: ¿Y daba clase también en esa época? MAC: Daba clase, claro, pero ya el hacer esa plaquita para cerrar el paladar y que los bebés pudieran comer, sin llenarse la nariz de comida, ya era un tratamiento y en el fondo era un poco también que la escuela dental cuando nosotros llegamos, era muy progresista, pero rápidamente el board de Carolina del Sur que era muy retrógrado en ese tiempo, empezó a sacar mal a los estudiantes, porque no le gustaba ese progresismo que significaba traer extranjeros, entonces echaron al decano de la escuela dental. ML: De aquí de MUSC. MAC: De aquí de la escuela dental de acá de MUSC y trajeron un caballero que era un [00:05:37] muy conectado, los estudiantes empezaron a pasar de curso y poco a poco todos los extranjeros se fueron yendo y los que quedaron, la vida se les hizo muy difícil y fue un poco lo que nos pasó a nosotros en ese tiempo, encontraron que Carlos hacia tratamiento, inmediatamente trataron de pararlo y un poco de perjudicarlo, a decir verdad, la cosa es que Carlos tenía un carácter inquebrantable, siguió adelante y bueno, ahí fue donde descubrimos esto y empezamos a estudiar, a tomar exámenes, nos aceptaron finalmente que tomáramos el national board con todos los estudiantes y si los pasábamos nos dejaban hacer clínica. El único que se negó a ayudarnos fue farmacología, porque dijeron que las medicinas cambiaban día a día, los tratamientos, así que teníamos que tomar ese curso, pero los demás cursos básicos una vez que pasamos el board �Maria Asuncion Cordova 4 nacional nos aceptaron, ah, y también teníamos que pasar el board clínico, pero que era toda la teoría ¿no? Una vez que pasamos esos dos, ahí nos dejaron recién entrar a la clínica. ML: ¿Cuánto tiempo les llevó este proceso? MAC: A Carlos le llevó como seis años, la escuela en ese tiempo era una escuela de cuatro años y a mí me llevó más o menos siete años, yo me he demorado un poco más por los niños y todo eso. ML: Por eso te pregunto, porque estamos hablando de un matrimonio ¿ustedes trabajaban full time verdad? MAC: Claro. ML: Y después tenían que estudiar y además tenían las responsabilidades de la familia. MAC: De los niños, sí. ML: Y esto estamos hablando que ustedes terminaron como alrededor de los 80 ¿ya? MAC: Carlos terminó el 85 y yo terminé el 86. ML: Casi diez años después de que habían llegado a Estados Unidos. MAC: Claro, claro, pasó un tiempo que no teníamos idea de estos programas ni nada, tú sabes, al principio uno estaba totalmente en la luna, nadie le dice nada además. ML: Claro que no y ¿cómo fue cambiando el estatus legal de ustedes? ¿Porque vinieron con visa de estudiante? MAC: Claro, vinimos con… no era una visa de estudiante, era esa visa la J1, que es intercambio entre gobiernos, que es para becados. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 5 ML: Sí, sí. MAC: Entonces esa beca es la más difícil de conseguir, pero Carlos se consiguió un C1 algo así, era una visa que lo que él hacía nadie más lo podía hacer, ese tipo de visa. ML: ¿Como de trabajador calificado? MAC: Claro, claro, entonces a él le salió muy fácil, a él y a los niños, pero a mí no me la querían dar y fue muy divertido, porque me querían echar, me llegaban cartas de que en quince días tenía que irme del país, cosas así y esto se coló a las noticias y un día yo andaba —en ese tiempo yo trabajaba en el departamento de farmacología, hacía neurofisiología ahí— y un día llegaron la gente de televisión al departamento y yo decía qué pasará, me paseaba por los pasillos mirando, copuchando y ellos dale con filmar a un colega que era hawaiano, porque andaban buscándome a mí, sin saber que yo era mujer ¿no? Sabían que había un extranjero que estaba haciendo ilegalmente empleado de la universidad, entonces como vieron a este muchacho que tenía cara de extranjero, a él lo filmaron y lo filmaron y a mí yo pasaba al lado de ellos ni se les ocurría. Finalmente tuvimos que apelar a la constitución, que no podía separar familias y conseguir toda clase de documentos de Chile, que no les importaba que yo me quedara acá, ya de la universidad me habían echado, yo creo que ya te conté eso. ML: No, no. MAC: La universidad me echó porque pensaron que —me mandaron una carta, tiene que presentarse en quince días acá y mi beca no había terminado, entonces era absurdo volver, entonces en vista de eso hicieron un... ML: Ah en Chile, la universidad en Chile, ahora sí me acuerdo. MAC: En Chile sí, claro en Chile claro, entonces hicieron un juicio e �Maria Asuncion Cordova 6 inmediatamente, me declararon culpable y me echaron y finalmente gracias a todas esas historias, apareció un documento, porque además yo estaba becada por la Organización Panamericana de Salud, que era en ese sentido terriblemente estricta, no me querían dar el pase, en cambio Carlos estaba becado por el NIH, entonces ellos como son de acá, no son internacionales, son internacionales pero son basados acá, no tenían el problema si alguien decía —está bien, quédese— pero finalmente salió todo y no me deportaron. ML: Así que tuviste tu buena cuota... MAC: Horrible, porque yo decía de pronto me usan de chivo expiatorio y me mandan para dar un ejemplo ¿no? Que hay que ser —y eso duró como un año más o menos. ML: ¿Eso fue ante de que estudiaras para ser odontóloga o después? MAC: Fue antes. Eso fue al final del primer año que estábamos acá, que ya era el principio del tercer año acá, entonces ya los dos años de beca se habían acabado, ya era otro tipo, teníamos una cosa como de instructor parcial algo así, temporal, porque tampoco nos dieron inmediatamente títulos de planta. ML: Tampoco, claro, claro que sí. ¿Y hasta cuando estuviste en MUSC? MAC: En el MUSC estuve hasta el año 85, haciendo investigación, finalmente terminé fisiología que era mi campo ¿no? Y ahí llegué ser profesora asistente, hacía clases y todo eso, pero mientras tanto me empecé a dar cuenta que yo iba a tener que sacar un PhD para seguir avanzando, porque ya no era solamente potenciales evocados y ese tipo de cosas que yo sabía ya había que meterse en cultivo de células y todo, porque ya la parte, digamos general, ya se había acabado. Entonces cuando ya empezó a pasar eso, por ahí por el año debe haber sido entre �Maria Asuncion Cordova 7 el 78 y el 80, por ahí, fue cuando descubrimos este programa y nos pusimos a trabajar, primero dimos los boards, después incluso fuimos a Tennessee y a Florida, a dar los exámenes básicos, allá en Tennessee y en Florida si uno tenía un título extranjero, te dejaban tomar un examen preclínico, que era hacer todo lo que tú haces con las manos en modelos, no en gente. Los pasamos, Florida fue terrible, eran doscientos y pasamos veinte, por ahí hacían cosas así y además el ambiente horrible, tú sabes los cubamos llegaron así, pero ya como están establecidos, no dejan entrar a nadie más, entonces son muy, pero muy exigentes, finalmente los exámenes clínicos los tomamos en Tennessee no en Florida, porque ya era demasiado estrés. Sí, porque ellos iban a sacarte mal, no iban a ver si tú sabias, era ir a sacarte mal para que no compitieras. Pensando nosotros hicimos eso que aquí nos iban a aceptar, porque ya teníamos una licencia en nuestro país, en otro estado, pero no, hay que estudiar de nuevo odontología, así que ahí estuvimos en la clínica en la mañana como estudiantes y en la tarde como profesores, así que... ML: Hasta que terminaste y ¿después tuviste clínica privada verdad? MAC: Claro, el año 86 primero yo me fui, terminé el 85 al final de año, terminé todos mis requisitos, mi mami se estaba muriendo en Francia, entonces me fui tres meses a cuidarla, hasta que ella falleció y realmente en ese tiempo no tenía nada que hacer acá, porque no podía ni practicar, ya había presentado mi renuncia a fisiología, porque tampoco iba a estar yo, hubiera sido un poco no ético, si estaba tratando de encontrar otra cosa, entonces estuve con ella hasta principios de abril, ella falleció en marzo y de ahí me vine y en julio di el board y ya después de eso, no perdón, el board fue en mayo, en junio, en julio, yo abrí mi oficina en downtown. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 8 ML: Y ¿cuantos años trabajaste ahí? MAC: Veintidós años. ML: Veintidós años ahí. MAC: Y todavía seguiría si no fuera que me enfermé, de hecho me enfermé muy, muy grave, se suponía que era muy grave, porque no sabían lo que tenía y yo estaba cada día peor, finalmente descubrieron que era mis riñones, mi tiroides, se arregló eso y ahora trabajo como voluntaria en vista de que ya no tengo oficina. ML: ¿Trabajas como voluntaria, como dentista verdad? MAC: Claro, claro. ML: ¿Dónde estás trabajando? MAC: En Our Lady of Mercy en Johns Island. ML: ¿Cuántas veces a la semana vas para allá? MAC: Voy una vez a la semana y cada quince días, es muy lejos y además antes, cuando estaba Carlos, era más difícil porque me quitaba tiempo, pero ahora estoy pensando ir quizás todas las semanas, vamos a ver, porque la gasolina también es cara y es lejos. ML: Sí, es lejos. MAC: Ahora a lo mejor veo aquí en ECCO [East Cooper Community Outreach], la clínica que hay en Mount Pleasant que antes no trabajaba ahí porque no me gustaba el pastor, pero ahora él renunció, así que va a haber otra persona entonces... ML: En una vez en un buen... MAC: Y más cerca pero no dejaría Johns Island es muy lindo. ML: ¿Por qué te gusta tanto Johns Island? �Maria Asuncion Cordova 9 MAC: Es precioso, la gente es adorable, encantadora, la gente con que tú trabajas. John Howard que es el jefe, es un hombre que toda su vida ha estado dedicado a ayudar al prójimo, no es un dentista que ha estado haciendo plata, haciendo dinero, sino que él siempre. Antes trabajó en el Costal Center con discapacitados, imagínate y ahora es el jefe de esa clínica. ML: ¿Es el único trabajo que tiene el Dr. Howard ahora? MAC: Sí, sí. ML: ¿Está full time ahí? MAC: Full time ahí. ML: Y como ¿quiénes son tus pacientes en esta clínica? MAC: Hay muchos hispanos, es toda gente muy pobre, porque son este… De acuerdo a lo que pueden pagar pagan y si no tienen dinero no pagan, entonces tú estás realmente ayudando, yo he descubierto de nuevo la dentística, porque claro en la oficina era terrible, yo no soy negociante, entonces nunca hice dinero, apenitas compraba algunas cosas para la casa, cosas de ese tipo y al menos ayudaba en el sentido de que no pagábamos tanto impuesto, pero en general mi entrada era inmensa, como el gros, no sé cómo se llama eso en castellano, el gros era grande trescientos, trescientos cincuenta, altísimo y yo que sé, yo veinte mil dólares me sacaba al mes, si es que sacaba tanto porque entre que pagaba unos sueldos muy buenos, porque realmente la gente que tenía era muy buena y qué se yo, además yo siempre he estado dando dinero a todas las fundaciones que me parecen buenas, entonces siempre me retaba la persona que estaba a cargo de la oficina ¿no? ML: Sí, sí. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 10 MAC: Pero era imposible dejar de hacerlo entonces... ML: Donde estaba tu corazón y María ¿qué tipo de tratamiento haces ahora en Johns Island? MAC: Dentística general. ML: ¿En general? ¿Has trabajado con niños y con grandes? MAC: No, los niños los atienden una vez a la semana y yo me alegro, porque a pesar de que a mí me va muy bien con los niños, me agotan. ML: Claro. MAC: Porque con un niño tú tienes que estar "la, la, la, la,” todo el tiempo manteniendo la atención de ellos, en el minuto que eso se quiebra "gua....' y se acabó, ya no hay caso de hacer nada con un niño. ML: Tienen mucho entrenamiento de psicología los odontólogos ¿verdad? MAC: Yo no sé, yo no sé si tienen, yo nunca vi una clase de psicología acá y en Chile cuando estudié odontología allá, era una clase en prótesis, me acuerdo que era muy linda, todos fascinados aplaudíamos al profesor, que te hablaba del tipo de pacientes, pero no te enseñan ni psicología, ni tampoco negocio y acá la odontología es un negocio, no hay un hospital, y si hay, hay un dentista en el hospital del lugar, entonces no hay esas cosas que hay allá del servicio de salud, entonces todo es negocio y por eso es que tienen los boards para proteger el negocio, porque si no sería… Montones de gente se vendrían de otros países a trabajar. ML: Contame eso ha sido tu evolución profesional, yo sé y vos me empezaste contar la semana pasada que, en forma paralela a tu trabajo profesional, has hecho otro montón de cosas desde que llegaste. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 11 MAC: Demasiadas. ML: ¿Cuáles fueron las cosas en las que te fuiste involucrando desde que llegaste? MAC: Bueno yo creo que la primera cosa que me involucré bueno, primero fue el Círculo Hispanoamericano que lo fundamos en el 78, hicimos una —el 18 de septiembre es el día de la independencia chilena— entonces en septiembre de ese año hicimos una fiesta y con casi todos profesores del college [College of Charleston] y unos cuantos de MUSC todos que hablaban castellano, porque en ese tiempo habían tan pocos hispanos aquí, creo que no había ni un chileno, quizá ya estaba Cristian Vera, pero no habían más chilenos, así que invitamos a los que conocíamos que hablaban castellano y hacía tiempo que nosotros estábamos con esa idea. ML: ¿Cómo cuantos eran? MAC: Deben haber sido unos quince, veinte personas yo creo, sí, nomás, varios de ellos, la mayoría en realidad están ya retirados, algunos incluso han fallecido y bueno, ahí empezamos nosotros, Carlos sobre todo que era mucho más bueno para hablar que yo, diciendo “nosotros nos vemos tan poco, sería bueno hacer un grupo, organizar algo, en fin” y todos se entusiasmaron y de hecho Gini Benmaman se entusiasmó tanto, que dijo ya, yo los ayudo con el college en fin y entonces este, ese mismo año el 12 de octubre, hicimos una cena en Blacklock House la señora del Blacklock House en ese tiempo tenían una cocinera yo le pasé una receta de paella, había una señora que también está retirada, Isabel Ochoa, que era la directora de la escuela de asistentes dentales, ella hizo flan para todos. Gini nos ayudó con el college para conseguir el Blacklock House, invitamos a todos los que podíamos en ese momento conocer, de hecho llegamos a �Maria Asuncion Cordova 12 ochenta personas y también invitamos en ese tiempo a un senador que era vecino nuestro para darle más formalidad y para que a alguien por lo menos de la comunidad supiera que estaba ocurriendo esto y lo hicimos y fue un éxito y de hecho me acuerdo que yo llevaba la contaduría y quedamos debiendo ochenta dólares que los pusimos nosotros del bolsillo, que era harta plata en ese tiempo, pero bueno. ML: Claro, claro. MAC: Después de eso, lo único que se hacía al principio era esa fiesta y Gini parece que estaba muy ocupada, claro Gini se ocupó muchísimo en hacer esa escuela de intérpretes que hizo tan buena del college y además hizo un diccionario, en fin, varias cosas y que no podía ayudarnos, entonces nos conseguimos en la Medical University, en ese tiempo había una casucha asquerosa era el [00:23:08 Fight Ki Club], en la calle Courtney, así que nos conseguimos esa sala y yo iba y de hecho a veces iba con una amiga argentina que ya no vive acá y echábamos baldes de agua y poco menos que con una lima, limpiábamos el piso, limpiábamos los baños y fueron asco, la cosa que el día que se hacía la fiesta, estaba todo limpio y en ese tiempo alguien hacía un ponche y la gente llevaba cosas y todo el mundo feliz, era siempre un éxito, porque era lo único que había. ML: Entonces cuando ustedes se reúnen, en realidad no tienen una organización formal en ese momento. MAC: Nada. ML: ¿Cómo surgió el nombre? ¿De dónde salió el nombre? MAC: Bueno Carlos trabajó con Jorge Marbán que ahora, que en paz descanse, que era un erudito en cuanto a la lengua hispana y en cuanto a los países y todo, era un �Maria Asuncion Cordova 13 tipo fabuloso de erudición y con él, él dijo Círculo porque eso envuelve, hispanoamericano porque en ese momento no se pensó en latino, porque latino es italiano también, entonces España y todos los países de habla hispana y Jorge Marbán fue el que le dijo que era una sola palabra, no dos y él lo estudió muy bien, así que así quedó como hispanoamericano una palabra. ML: Como una sola palabra. Quiere decir que la idea de ustedes era, si te entiendo bien, buscar a la gente que hablaba español en realidad, la gente que ustedes nucleaban al menos lo que compartían era el idioma cervantino. MAC: Exactamente y la idea era también que fuera cultural. ML: ¿Cómo lo decidieron a eso? ¿Cómo decidieron, estaban reunidos entre tres o cuatro amigos? ¿Cómo fue que surgió decir, nos vamos a reunir, vamos a hacer esta fiesta, pero el foco que vamos a tener va a ser cultural? MAC: Yo no me acuerdo. ML: No te acordás. MAC: No me acuerdo, pero como toda la gente en ese tiempo era del college y no había para ese… nadie que no fuera del college a esas alturas o de la Medical University, ¿no? Entonces era como que caía de cajón que claro a todos les interesa la cultura, ¿no? El baile o qué se yo, otro tipo de actividades, además la cultura incluye todo, esa es la otra cosa pues. ML: Pero no hubo en ese momento ninguna formalización en los papeles. MAC: No, nada, nada, nada. MAC: No hubo en ese momento es decir este objetivo que ustedes tuvieron y el nombre, lo tenían como grabado a fuego. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 14 MAC: En la cabecita, claro, claro. ML: En la cabeza y en el corazón de ustedes, pero no está documentado en ninguna parte. MAC: En ninguna parte. Eso fue apareciendo de a poco. ML: Y vos me dijiste que hace muy poquito que ustedes son ahora un non-profit organization. MAC: Exacto, por mucho tiempo fue, yo hace años creo que cuando la primera vez que me pidieron que fuera presidenta, creo que hice el registro en la ciudad y después cuando llegaron las cosas de impuestos, era tan complicado todo, en ese tiempo no estaba la EC form ni nada de eso que yo no lo podía hacer, el tesorero no era una persona erudita en negocios, lo único que hacía era anotar las cuotas y lo que se gastaba. ML: Lo poquito que había entrado y lo muchito que salía. MAC: Claro, lo muchito que salía, nunca teníamos mucho dinero y bueno, luego empezaron a aparecer actividades culturales, al mismo tiempo en la ciudad empezó a organizar el Spoleto bueno apareció Spoleto y la ciudad fundó el Picolo Spoleto. Y el Picolo Spoleto era todas las actividades de la ciudad, ya no la cosa formal de Spoleto que era trayendo gente extranjera, esto era nada más que para la ciudad y el estado y el día sábado porque el domingo era la final de Spoleto, el sábado se decidió hacer una final de Picolo Spoleto y me invitaron a hacer una de los organizadores de Picolo Spoleto. Al principio era yo, yo digo primero, Paul Figueroa que era el director del museo, The Gibbs Museum y una representante de la comunidad filipina y entre los tres organizábamos, buscábamos entre distintos grupos y al principio era una cosa chiquitita, cada uno llevaba un puestecito y vendíamos comida, ya después se empezó a hacer un escenario y �Maria Asuncion Cordova 15 entonces cada uno llevaba sus bailes y después Paul se fue, esta chica de [00:28:26] se fue también y quedé yo a cargo. Fue una evolución lindísima al final, en una época teníamos dos escenarios, porque había tanta gente que quería participar y un año hicimos un desfile con una gaita delante del Citadel, otro año era otro desfile con una banda mexicana, en fin, fue muy lindo, fue muy lindo. ML: ¿Cómo fue que te conectaron María, para estar a cargo de esta festividad de la ciudad? MAC: Es que en ese tiempo Picolo era todo hecho por voluntarios, había un voluntario que hacia la cosa de poesía, había otro voluntario que hacia la música clásica. ML: Bueno, pero está lleno de gringos, se vinieron a encontrar por ahí la única chilena que estaba dando vueltas. MAC: Claro, yo creo que porque teníamos la organización cultural, yo me imagino que por eso. ML: ¿Cómo los conocían en ese momento? ¿Cómo pensás que ustedes se hicieron famosos digamos saliendo de la comunidad hispana? ¿Cómo piensas que la gente supo que ustedes existían como organización? MAC: Yo no me acuerdo, yo me imagino que a través del college, por otro lado, como el año 80, por ahí por el año 80, a Carlos lo nombraron cónsul honorario y eso también debe haber influido, empezó a salir el nombre de él y yo al lado pegadita. ML: Y sí, es interesante, porque yo te dije que los otros días estuve mirando tu nombre en el periódico, en el Post and Courier y me parece que era el Evening Post, que estaba antes también y entonces hay artículos sobre el Círculo y hay artículos sobre la �Maria Asuncion Cordova 16 participación de ustedes en Picolo como que yo pensé que no talvez encontraba nada, pero sí se ve que ustedes tenían conexión con la prensa local, ¿en ese momento tenían amigos en la prensa? MAC: No, lo que pasa es que en ese momento era una novedad, no había más, era lo único, entonces el hecho que hubiera una comunidad india que participara, una comunidad filipina, polaca, en fin, de todas partes, era una novedad, en una ciudad que era tan este, provinciana, porque piensa tu que cuando nosotros llegamos en al año 92, no, 72, no fue eso 72, el 75, la 95 todavía no salía a Charleston, uno entraba por la 301, estaban construyendo la 95. ML: Claro. MAC: La 26 se construyó unos años antes, entonces este lugar era pero así terril y muy este, como ay —cómo es la palabra— como, como que todos se conocían, todo era chiquitito, los niños andaban en bicicleta por las calles, no había peligro, en fin. Y de repente se transformó, especialmente cuando vino Spoleto, hubo una explosión que a los charlestonianos al principio no les gustó nada, especialmente South of Broad porque de repente fueron invadidos por gente rarísima, del norte, de todas partes. ML: ¿Cuánto tiempo seguiste trabajando con Picolo Spoleto? MAC: Trabajé con Picolo Spoleto hasta que llego Ellen Dressler Moryl, Ellen lo hizo más profesional todo, entonces ya trabajó con algunos voluntarios, pero más bien los profesionales, músicos profesionales, ahora en el intertanto otra cosa que es bien curiosa, en una época trabajé con una chica que era morena, que era afroamericana, y ella, nos hicimos muy amigas en una época que todavía los blancos no se hacían amigos de los morenos y ella me invitó que participara en la inauguración de Moya. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 17 ML: ¿Cómo se llamaba tu amiga? MAC: Se llamaba [00:32:39 Benny Moore?] ahora creo que está en Colombia, pero no estoy segura, yo perdí contacto, pero sé que no está en Charleston. Yo fui a Moja a ver la inauguración y eso fue muy interesante, porque al principio me miraban bien raro y yo me sentía un poco incomoda, pero como estaba con mi amiga yo encantada de la vida. ML: ¿Dónde la habías conocido María? MAC: Trabajando también con la Neighbor Day en la Finale. ML: ¿Con Picolo Spoleto, ahí se habían conocido? MAC: Claro, claro que sí, en una época ella fue parte de mi comité y así nos hicimos amigas y entonces la segunda vez que yo fui a una reunión dije —o hablo o me quedo o me voy— porque nadie me hacía caso y todo entonces un día dije yo, bueno yo pienso que los negros, no dije negros debo haber dicho African American o quien sabe cuál era la palabra correcta en esos años, también hay buenos músicos clásicos y no hay nada de eso acá, entonces yo creo que ustedes deben agregar eso y además pienso que Moja debe ser tan importante como Spoleto y eso les encantó y cuando ya ese día me fui, yo era la sister y todo eso y así yo empecé una parte que se llamaba Classical Encounters y vino una vez una cantante que vivía en Nueva York, me parece que vivía ella, una cantante buenísima, otro año vino un pianista de Atlanta, que de hecho en esa época ya había llegado Enrique Graf acá, entonces él se preocupó de atenderlo y todo y era muy bueno el pianista, no me acuerdo de los nombres. ML: Y cuando vos decís “yo organizaba el Classical Encounters” ¿dónde pasaba eso? �Maria Asuncion Cordova 18 MAC: En el college. ML: En el college. MAC: Tocaban en el college y después, no eso fue antes, empezaron a tocar en el Dock Street, porque el Dock Street, era de la ciudad, así que entonces se podía, lamentablemente iba muy poca gente y yo no sé por qué, porque eran de primera calidad, pero creo que todavía funciona eso. ML: Y eso era parte de tu trabajo en el Círculo o era parte de tu trabajo con estos otros amigos de... MAC: No, era más bien, era más bien nada que ver con el Círculo, como aparte y así como eso hice cosas por ejemplo me hice muy amiga de Robert Ivey cuando estaba con Amnistía, una vez hicimos —y eso fue también con mucho apoyo de los Cox. Hicimos una obra de teatro con estudiantes de Robert Ivey que en ese tiempo enseñaba teatro en el college y él hizo un ballet especial para que tuviera que ver con derechos humanos y entonces este—Ahí yo me hice muy amiga de Bob y estuve trabajando en su board también, todas estas cosas han sido… ML: Espera, cuéntame cómo empezó el cuento con Amnistía, contame cómo fue que vos te involucraste con Amnistía Internacional. MAC: Acuérdate que el año 72 en Chile hubo un golpe de estado o el 73. ML: 73. MAC: Así que yo estaba muy, pero muy tocada por eso, muchos de mis amigos desaparecieron, otros estuvieron presos, otros alcanzaron a refugiarse, porque claro, la academia en Chile había sido el comienzo de la reforma universitaria, entonces eran todos bien, estaban muy bien marcados y en el año 80 un día veo o en mí, yo había oído �Maria Asuncion Cordova 19 hablar de Amnistía Internacional, a todo esto en Chile desde chiquitita, porque cuando ganó el premio nobel, las radios allá en Chile decían Amnistía Internacional premio nobel de ¿Cómo se llama? ¿De derechos humanos? ML: ¿De la paz habrá sido o de derechos humanos? No sé. MAC: No, premio nobel de la paz, ganó el premio nobel de la paz, así que yo conocía al nombre y para mí era una cosa así muy fantástica, por ese mismo hecho y un día en la universidad, de repente veo que hay una película de Amnistía, imagínate para mí fue como que vi el sol así en la noche. ML: ¿En la universidad en Chile me estás diciendo? MAC: No, acá en Charleston, en el año 80, cuando todavía estábamos en la época de la oscuridad imagínate, así que fui inmediatamente y me conecté con la persona que había llevado, que es una gran amiga mía desde ese día Joan Simpson ella era parte de un grupo que había aquí en Charleston de Amnistía Internacional e inmediatamente busqué para inscribirme etc., etc. En ese tiempo la directora de Amnistía Internacional y quizás ahí hay un poco de la conexión con la ciudad también, puede haber sido eso porque la directora de Amnistía en ese tiempo era Laura Katz que era la directora, ayudante o algo de Diane Abbey que era en ese tiempo la directora de la oficina cultural, así que capaz haya sido así como yo no me acuerdo del detalle y con Laura trabajé yo muchísimo, después Laura se fue y quedó un muchacho que era del diario otro año y después me nombraron a mí coordinadora, que era como presidenta, en ese tiempo coordinadora el nombre, la que dirige todo. ML: ¿Qué era lo que hacía la oficina de Amnistía en Charleston? MAC: No había una oficina, era un grupo, el grupo 168, que empezó gracias a �Maria Asuncion Cordova 20 una mujer que se llamaba [00:38:50 Din] el apellido, [00:38:53 Diane Din], creo no, no era Diane, no me acuerdo ahora, pero era una mujer muy activa en la abolición de la pena de muerte y ella empezó Amnistía acá, bueno, después vino Laura, después vino este hombre que no me acuerdo su nombre y después vine yo. Y era —en ese tiempo, era un grupo activo, iba mucha gente, los Cox, iban amigos de ellos en fin mucha, mucha gente, muy bonito el grupo y ahí hicimos montones de cosas. ML: ¿Cómo qué por ejemplo? MAC: Bueno, esa obra de teatro lindísima que era basada en una historia de Argentina, que hizo Harold Pinter yo incluso hice una traducción de la obra, porque era un monólogo sobre un tipo que había torturado, ese tipo de cosas y el teatro de Bob Ivey participaba mucho en la Amnistía Nacional, incluso yo en una época fui jefa del grupo que nominaba los candidatos para el board cosas así. Y ¿qué más hicimos? Hicimos tantas cosas, participábamos en el Neighbor Day con una mesa. ¿Qué más? Trajimos muchas visitas, hicimos una reunión de todo el estado... ML: ¿De Amnistía? MAC: De Amnistía. ML: ¿Había algún cruce entre la gente del Círculo y la gente de Amnistía o solamente vos? MAC: Ninguno, ninguno. Era un animal completamente diferente. ML: Dos animales completamente diferentes. MAC: Totalmente diferente, sí. A mí me hubiera encantado, pero no cabía, derechos humanos no cabía en el Círculo, creo que incluso lo habrían considerado �Maria Asuncion Cordova 21 político, los miembros del Círculo. ML: ¿Y no había interés en el Círculo? MAC: No, no, quizá uno o dos miembros, pero no iban como miembros del Círculo, iban por interés de ellos. ML: Así que tus intereses estaban repartidos. MAC: Totalmente divididos. ML: En distintas organizaciones Así que… Y después también has sido presidenta del YWCA MAC: Sí. ML: ¿Y cómo fue que llegaste al YWCA? MAC: Si fue otra cosa así también, un día veo en el diario que hay un breakfast club del YWCA era a las siete y media de la mañana, muy difícil, pero cuando yo fui era pero de una popularidad increíble, a pesar de que la presidenta de ese breakfast club no era morena, era blanca, era una chica que ahora está muy involucrada en el grupo de mujeres internacionales de business internacionales, Ebert es el apellido, no me acuerdo del nombre, pero en todo caso era precioso y la forma como yo me involucré fue porque ella descubrió que yo era la coordinadora de Amnistía y me invitó a dar una charla sobre Amnistía. Yo en ese tiempo daba a donde me pidieran que hablara de Amnistía, yo iba y hablaba; una vez tuve al Rotary, es decir batuda total, porque eran lugares que no eran muy hospitalarios. ML: ¿Por qué no? MAC: Porque la gente siempre miraba a Amnistía como muy política, porque claro, tú imagínate hablabas en contra del gobierno... �Maria Asuncion Cordova 22 ML: Es una organización completamente política, si se quiere. MAC: Es política, pero es imparcial, pero la gente el hecho de que sea política ya consideran que es parcial, porque claro, en ese tiempo por ejemplo hablábamos en contra de Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brasil, que eran todos dictadores amigos de este país, entonces era como hablar en contra de este país, porque claro también se decía y es posible que la CIA porque en ese tiempo no había seguridad, es posible que la CIA los haya apoyado, entonces todo eso era como que chocaba con la gente de acá. ML: Claro que sí. MAC: Así que no había posibilidades de conectar... ML: ¿Cómo navegabas esas aguas? Como decidías que de todas maneras ibas a hablar con el Rotary, porque eso tiene un costo personal también ¿no? MAC: Lo que pasa es que yo quería, yo era, en ese tiempo para mí eso era, yo en ese momento ya no era la presidenta del Círculo, era Carlos, entonces a pesar de que yo lo apoyaba y hacía muchas de las cosas que él no podía hacer, pero mi gran amor era los derechos humanos, yo en ese tiempo sabía lo que tú me preguntaras, yo estaba erudita completa y me interesaba, era mi pasión, entonces donde me dijeran yo estaba interesada, porque quería que la gente supiera y se involucrara y, en fin. Hacíamos por ejemplo una —se llamaba writetaton, una maratón de escribir todos los ocho de diciembre que es el día de la Declaración Universal de los Derechos Humanos en el Customs House en esa como explanadita que hay... ML: Sí, sí, en East Bay. MAC: Exacto, y al principio se llenaba de gente y yo u otra persona, nos íbamos al mercado con una cosa para firmar y hacíamos firmar a la gente y le decíamos que �Maria Asuncion Cordova 23 viniera, es decir una pasión absoluta. ML: Y vos me habías dicho que como miembro de Amnistía en ese momento no te podías ocupar de Chile, porque las reglas de Amnistía eran que te tenías que ocupar de los presos políticos que estaban en otros países ¿verdad? MAC: Exacto. ML: Pero ¿cómo hacían para de todas maneras contar lo que estaba pasando en Latinoamérica, como manejaban eso? MAC: Bueno, de todas maneras, se contaba lo que se contaba, lo que no podíamos hacer era trabajar mandando cartas y cosas así y en ese momento, yo empecé a usar mi apellido Córdova y saqué el Salinas completamente. ML: ¿Por qué? MAC: Porque Carlos, al mismo tiempo era el Cónsul Honorario de Chile, a él lo nombraron durante Pinochet, no porque el fuera apoyando a Pinochet, él apoyaba a Chile y en ese tiempo había venido un cónsul de visita, Carlos lo atendió por ser chileno, no por ser representante de Pinochet, porque de hecho en Hopkins trabajaba para que Chile saliera adelante con Allende o sea él siempre fue chileno entre comillas y nada más. Entonces en vista de eso, yo simplemente borre el nombre Salinas detrás de mi Córdova, para que no hubiera ningún malentendido y además para no molestar a Carlos, porque a Carlos a todo esto, no le interesaba ese tipo de trabajo. ML: ¿Cómo era la convivencia dentro de la casa teniendo dos posturas tan diferentes? MAC: Tan distintas. Bueno, él no apoyaba al dictador y de hecho yo a veces le decía —mira, pasó tal cosa y te lo digo a ti como cónsul— y de hecho una vez fue él a �Maria Asuncion Cordova 24 una reunión de cónsules a Washington y presentó eso y le pusieron el cónsul rebelde o sea él, ahí hacíamos como que éramos dos entidades, no un matrimonio y bueno, Carlos no estaba de acuerdo, pero cuando yo iba a las reuniones, me iba a dejar al aeropuerto y me iba a buscar y pensaba que era una de mis locuras, para él no era una cosa seria como era para mí. ML: ¿Cómo te afectó eso personalmente? MAC: Tú sabes que yo lo dejaba pasar, quizá en mi subconsciente haya tenido algún efecto, pero en mi consciente yo lo dejaba pasar nomás, él era así y yo así, de hecho, éramos muy diferentes; acá por suerte la política nos juntó un poco, porque los dos teníamos más o menos el mismo tipo de democracia, de idea de democracia, pero en Chile éramos de partido político opuesto, toda la vida. ML: Así que tu trabajo a él como poco no le interesaba. MAC: No le interesaba en absoluto. Ahora yo no sé cuánto de eso él contaba afuera, porque a veces yo sabía que él había contado y fíjate —“la nena hizo tal cosa”— por ejemplo, pero yo eso no lo sabía, así que... ML: Así que él nunca te dijo si estaba orgulloso de tu trabajo o si... MAC: No, no al contrario. “Ay por Dios como pierdes el tiempo, en vez de ser tu dentística mejor”, ese tipo de cosas. A lo mejor tenía un poco de razón, quien sabe. ML: ¿Hasta cuándo trabajaste con Amnistía? MAC: Bueno, ahora lo que hago estoy en contacto, lo que pasa es que hubo un quiebre en un momento en Amnistía, yo lo que hice después hice montón de cosas, primero fui coordinadora del grupo, después fui coordinadora de Carolina del Sur, después fundamos cuando yo era coordinadora, fundamos un grupo para que todas las �Maria Asuncion Cordova 25 coordinadoras de todo el país se juntaran steering committee se llamaba, después hice el comité de nominación para el board, un año me presenté al board, quedé justo al final donde cortaban, después me llamaron porque alguien se retiró, yo ya no quise, porque no había servido, una tontera porque en realidad siempre pasa eso, que alguien se retira y después el que sigue lo ponen; pero yo en ese momento no sé en qué onda estaba, dije— si no me han elegido no voy—. Así que me perdí esa oportunidad que hubiera sido lindo hacerlo. ML: ¿servir en el board internacional de Amnistía? MAC: No, el nacional. ML: El nacional. MAC: Hubiera sido lindo, porque yo en ese tiempo todavía tenía esa pasión y después estuve coordinando, hay otros grupos que son los especialistas de países, yo me especialicé en Argentina, Uruguay, justo en la época en que todavía estaba la dictadura, pero no en el máximo, era más bien cuando ya estaba cambiando a la democracia. ML: En la transición, como 82, 83. MAC: Exacto, estuve yo mandando cartas, haciendo cosas, con cómo se llamaba este hombre que apareció Scilingo [Adolfo Scilingo], te acuerdas ese soldado que declaró y contó como tiraban la gente al río y todas esas cosas, toda esa época yo era coordinadora de Argentina y Uruguay y después me empecé a enfriar un poco, estuve de tesorera por muchos años del grupo, estuve un poco de parte del grupo de steering y me empecé ¿Sabes qué pasó? Que con la oficina, empecé a tener más obligaciones, tenía que hacer las declaraciones de impuestos. ML: ¿Qué pasó también con tu interés cuando nuestros países entraron en la �Maria Asuncion Cordova 26 transición democrática, mantuviste la misma pasión? MAC: Sí, sí. ML: Todavía después. MAC: Claro, porque había mucha impunidad, acuérdate que al principio nadie fue puesto preso, no hubo juicio en Argentina, era punto final. Esa época fue bien interesante, apareció ese libro sobre esa mujer de Uruguay, que había encontrado a su hijo y el hijo no quería hacerse el DNA del examen, porque sus padres eran militares y estaba contento, en fin, una serie de historias fascinantes, las madres de la Plaza de Mayo, las abuelas de la Plaza de Mayo y mientras tanto, yo había interesado a mi hijo Carlos en Amnistía y él de estudiante, de coordinador estudiante nacional, pasó a ser el Director de la Oficina de Latinoamérica y el Caribe. ML: ¿Y él sigue trabajando ahí? MAC: No, el ya dejó. ML: El ya dejó MAC: El dejó, cuando lo nombraron director interino, se dio cuenta un poco que Amnistía funcionaba como una corporación, porque bueno, sino como se mantiene ¿no? Y eso no le gustó y se retiró. ML: Así que él siguió, el agarró la antorcha en tu familia. MAC: Sí y mucho hizo y lo que hizo fue estupendo como director. Cosas así de trabajar toda la noche para liberar a alguien, sacar a alguien de Colombia porque lo habían amenazado de muerte y estaba rodeado de soldados para matarlo, cosas así increíbles hacía. ML: Qué decía Carlos de eso, de que el hijo siguiera, ¿Era el más grande verdad? �Maria Asuncion Cordova 27 MAC: Ah, imagínate —Ahí si mi hijo debió haber sido abogado— toda la vida decía lo mismo, pero también a él nunca le dijo —“estoy orgulloso hijo”— a lo mejor le dijo alguna vez, no sé, pero que yo haya visto no, pero cuando hablaba de él hablaba con mucho orgullo, pero no le decía a él. ML: Y entonces así que poquito a poco te fuiste enfriando con Amnistía y dejaste... MAC: Bueno, cuando él renuncio... ML: Sí. MAC: Yo estaba tan involucrada en ese momento con el trabajo y con el trabajo de él y todo, como que a mi algo se me desarmó, más que nada porque vi que él se desilusiono y él estaba mucho más interiorizado y la verdad es que de ahí hasta hoy, ha habido muchos problemas políticos. ML: Y esto estás hablando que te desvinculaste de ellos ¿Cómo para que época María? MAC: Me desvinculé de ellos hace dos años, recién. ML: Recién hace dos años. MAC: Sí, porque yo seguía haciendo Argentina, Uruguay, en una época hice Paraguay, porque no había nadie y ya estaba como que ya los problemas no me interesaban tanto. En Argentina por ejemplo aparecía un travesti que lo habían torturado en Mendoza, cosas así, pero ya no era esa investigación espectacular de antes, perdí el interés y luego apareció un grupo nuevo que no me gustó, eran, no sé, estaban como inventando de nuevo la rueda, entonces ya eran como cansador. ML: Ya no quisiste. Sabes que... �Maria Asuncion Cordova 28 MAC: De hecho, la última vez que fui fue hace, antes que Carlos falleciera, fui a Atlanta, a una reunión del sureste y fue bien desilusionante, porque era como, bueno, en esa época había problemas políticos terribles en Amnistía y feos, de orgullo, de deseos de sobresalir, gente incapaz, esas típicas cosas que pasan cuando una organización se hace muy poderosa creo yo. ML: Sabes que te iba a preguntar, cuando ustedes llegaron aquí, no solamente Charleston era una ciudad pequeñita, un pueblito en el que todo el mundo se conocía, la comunidad latina era una comunidad chiquitita también. MAC: Pequeñísima, incluso en North Charleston, había siempre gente en Johns Island, pero eran como un mundo aparte y Johns Island era tan lejos. ML: ¿En ese momento era lejísimo? MAC: Claro. ML: ¿Cómo has visto la evolución de la comunidad latina desde que llegaron a vivir hasta ahora? MAC: Increíble, nosotros por ejemplo en la Medical University, a veces hacíamos un almuerzo para los latinos, los hispanos latinos y éramos veinte, nos conocíamos todos, en el college nos conocíamos todos, ahora ni en la Medical University yo sé quién hay en el Citadel, en el Citadel éramos amigos del chairman también, que nos - cómo se llama esa sociedad de honor de... ML: Sí, yo no sé si es el Spanish Honors Society MAC: Es un Honors Society, nos hicieron miembros de eso - Society, pero era, o sea ahora yo no sé ni en el Citadel quiénes son los hispanos que hay, en ninguna parte. ML: Claro, somos muchos ahora. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 29 MAC: Claro, es que ya han aparecido club de salsa porque eso es otra cosa, mucha gente era miembro del Círculo porque una vez al año, dos veces al año en realidad, para fin de año y para 12 de octubre, hacíamos una cena bailable y era la única parte donde se podía bailar de toda la ciudad y entonces ahora no, ahora hay en todas partes bailes, entonces ya mucha gente no se interesa. ML: Así que ¿Cómo has visto el Círculo acompañando la evolución de la población? MAC: Fíjate que lo que inmediatamente me sale a relucir, es que se ha ido empequeñeciendo y que hay que evolucionar con la comunidad, entonces ahora por ejemplo antes no hacíamos esto a pesar de que es parte de la cultura muy importante, pero ahora por ejemplo estamos muy interesados e involucrados en la educación. Porque claro, la comunidad que ha llegado ahora, está llorando por educación. ML: Claro que sí. MAC: Ya nos hemos enterado que nosotros somos la comunidad que tiene menos estudios superiores, incluso high school, es mucho abandono del colegio. ML: Sí, tenemos los porcentajes más alto de abandono junto con los chicos negros. MAC: Exacto —sí, mucho más que los negros. Yo creo que con los nativos tenemos más o menos parecido, es terrible; de hecho, la escuela dental es una maravilla cuando llega un hispano, por ejemplo. En la época que estaba Carlos, los conocíamos muy bien a todos. ML: ¿A los estudiantes? MAC: Claro, claro. �Maria Asuncion Cordova 30 ML: Entonces, y eso significa como un cambio, cuando decís que nos queremos involucrar en educación ¿En qué tipo de cosa piensan que sería bueno involucrarse? MAC: Bueno de apoyo, apoyo en lo que se pueda, por ejemplo ahora Paula [Tejeda] que es la vicepresidente, ha estado yendo a unas reuniones a Stall [High] el colegio de North Charleston que están tratando de hacer una casa para los chicos que son alumnos brillantes de cualquier etnicidad, pero que no tienen casa, para que tengan una casa, hay una pareja de profesores que se quedaría con ellos, entonces es un programa fantástico, entonces ahí nosotros vamos a apoyar, no vamos a dirigir eso porque no es esa nuestra misión principal, es una de ellas. En una época hicimos un concurso de poesía, empezó en el año 80 me parece eso, claro en el año 80, con la [00:58:58 Lapreble] que era una profesora del college, después Del Mastro nos apoyó también en eso, pero al final se desvirtuó, porque se veía mucho la mano de los profesores. ML: [Risas]. MAC: Claro, los chicos no sabían ni pronunciar las palabras y había unas palabras muy rebuscadas, muy bonito, al principio era lindísimo porque era un castellano así como... ML: ¿Casi le estaban dando el premio a los profesores en vez de a los chicos? MAC: Claro, al principio era precioso porque era un castellano como otro idioma, pero que tu entendías lo que querían decir y eran cosas típicas de jovencitos, lindas, y de hecho lo que hacíamos más que nada era corregir un poco nosotros, para que se pudiera entender, pero era el mensaje que ellos querían dar, pero ya después fue mucho así que finalmente lo paramos en el año 92 cuando fue el sesquicentenario de la llegada de �Maria Asuncion Cordova 31 Colón, a Carlos lo eligieron, la ciudad lo eligió para hacer el presidente del comité para celebrar esto en Charleston, que de hecho trajo las carabelas, casi se volvió loco con ese negocio que hizo y ese año decidimos hacer la beca que hasta hoy funciona. ML: Que es la beca para los chicos que van a la universidad. MAC: Claro, de enseñanza superior. Ahora el sueño nuestro es hacer algo más con high school, pero todavía no tenemos la economía, por eso ahora el 501(c) sí va a ayudar y en eso estamos ahora por ejemplo Elba Moisa ofreció contactar a los negocios que ella ayuda como CPA, para pedirles apoyo, tenemos que ir a las grandes oficinas como Boeing. ML: ¿Alguna vez han considerado trabajar en... cómo se dice, el Círculo no, no intervino nunca en política ha intervenido en cuestiones culturales y educación, pero alguna vez han considerado ser como una voz política en educación, de decir nuestros chicos realmente abandonan la escuela antes que los otros, nuestros chicos están en condiciones de educación que son peores que el resto de la población , nuestros chicos están impactados por la pobreza y por las leyes injustas de inmigración, yo digo injustas, por las leyes de inmigración? Alguna vez han pensado en tener una voz de decir OK, hace falta que la gente del Círculo escriba una carta a los lectores, como vos escribías con Amnistía. ¿Alguna vez ha sido parte de la conversación? MAC: Claro, en la época que Carlos era presidente, él mandaba muchas cartas, ya sea respecto a la salud, respecto a cualquier tema que aparecía en las noticias. ML: Él lo hacía. MAC: Él lo hacía, pero yo creo que ya no hay nadie que quiera hacerlo y yo no me atrevo porque creo que hay mucha gente que se molestaría, porque como somos �Maria Asuncion Cordova 32 "apolíticos", yo no sé de qué partido político es cada persona y prefiero no preguntar, entonces podría ser que pisáramos muchos talones. Y por otro lado, si alguna vez hacemos pedido a un grant, que necesitáramos apoyo de un político, a lo mejor no nos daría el apoyo porque dijimos algo que ellos no están de acuerdo. Entonces por ese lado sí es algo que parece como esto del colegio, apoyar a los chicos, pero la inmigración es muy politizada, entonces meterse en eso una organización cultural, es un poco como cerrarle la entrada a mucha gente, que te voy a decir, a mí me cuesta muchísimo porque yo quisiera que fuera política. ML: Yo te estoy escuchando por eso y por eso te pregunto, porque la comunidad ha cambiado mucho, yo me imagino cuando éramos poquitos aquí en Charleston, nos podíamos ocupar de lo que pasaba en nuestros países, pero cuando una comunidad es tan grande como la nuestra, la caridad empieza por casa dice el dicho ¿no? Y entonces tenemos asuntos, tenemos asuntos de derechos humanos, la educación es parte de derechos humanos. MAC: Claro ML: La salud es parte de los derechos humanos también... MAC: Claro, claro. ML: Pero yo no encuentro por donde todavía. MAC: Claro no hay posibilidades, porque mira, en este momento tenemos muy poca gente, tratando de aumentarlo, creo que la mitad de esa gente se iría si hiciéramos algo que parece político inmediatamente, así que es una frustración que hay que dejarla ML: Pero tú has convivido con esta realidad durante todos los años que ha estado aquí que el Círculo tenía sus objetivos... �Maria Asuncion Cordova 33 MAC: Claro. ML: Y que vos canalizabas tu energía y tu amor a la política y a los derechos humanos por otra parte. MAC: En otro lado, claro. ML: ¿Tenés alguna otra organización ahora? ¿Algún otro grupo en el que estés participando en este momento en el que podés canalizar estos otros intereses? MAC: En este momento no, pero siempre estoy atenta a lo que hace el cómo se llama Women’s Borders, American University Women, y todavía no sé, porque mi energía no es la misma de hace veinte años atrás, entonces estoy siempre atenta, estoy siempre yendo cuando puedo a alguna reunión en la Y [YVCA] por lo menos logré que se hiciera la parte que hacías tú, cuando yo estaba de presidenta, porque antes no hacían eso, el lobbing pero más no, en este momento todavía estoy entre mi gimnasia y el Círculo , en fin. ML: Has hecho un montón por la ciudad y has hecho un montón por Chile y por las organizaciones en las que estabas trabajando y también es justo que te dediques a la gimnasia y al Círculo. [Risas] ¿Has visto alguna manera en que se hayan ido formando las próximas generaciones? Es decir ¿a quién a la gente que fue tan activa en su momento le pasa la antorcha? ¿Has visto algo de esto? MAC: Ese es el gran, el gran problema que tengo en este momento con el Círculo, que necesitamos gente joven y gente joven que quiera seguir con el tipo de mandamiento que nosotros tenemos, el mandato y eso es lo que a mí me deja sin dormir a veces, porque esa es la parte que nos falta y de hecho estaba pensando en preguntarte a ti si - �Maria Asuncion Cordova 34 ML: [Risas] Eso cuando terminemos la entrevista. MAC: [Risas]. ML: María, yo te agradezco tanto el tiempo que me has dado. No te he preguntado ¿Cuáles son tus sueños? MAC: Sabes la otra cosa también es este el Shem Creek ahí estoy en contacto, todavía no he podido ir porque a mí me pasa eso mucho, estoy muy en contacto todavía hay gente que me conoce de mi época antigua y entonces cuando me encuentro con ella Ay, ya voy a ir a las reuniones. Y no voy. Shem Creek ahora lo que está haciendo es yendo a las reuniones de consejo, para evitar que sigan con esta brutalidad de desarrollo que hay en desarrollo. ML: Claro que sí, claro que sí. MAC: Así que esa es otra organización que quizás va a ser la que me voy a... ML: Bien local, bien... MAC: Y siempre estoy en contacto con Amnistía, mandando cartas, apoyando al grupo de acá, que de hecho cuando empezó el grupo de nuevo después que se adormeció, yo ayudé al nuevo coordinador a encontrar gente, al final yo nunca fui a las reuniones, porque claro tenía la oficina y en fin, ni digamos toda la lista. ML: [Risas]. María, ¿hay algo que no te he preguntado y que quieras contarme o algo más en lo que quisieras reflexionar de lo que hemos conversado? MAC: En este minuto no sé, seguramente, yo reacciono muy tarde, seguramente en la noche o mañana voy a decir - porque no le dije esto a Marina. ML: Me llamas por teléfono. �35 Maria Asuncion Cordova MAC: Te lo mando por email. ML: Y lo volvemos a conversar, muchísimas, muchísimas... MAC: En todo caso para mí lo más importante que haya justicia y por eso, es decir hay tantas organizaciones Green Peace, Medical Without Borders, en fin, tantas, tantas, tantas, yo en este momento no puedo ayudarlas a todas, ni puedo participar en todas y eso me frustra, porque yo ojalá tuviera unas cuarenta y cinco horas al día, a lo mejor ahí podría. ML: Pero si yo te entiendo, en este momento estás haciendo servicio directo con tu odontología, todavía estás haciendo servicio a larga distancia con Amnistía. MAC: Indirectamente sí. ML: Estás tratando de trabajar en tu propio vecindario con Shem Creek. MAC: Sí. ML: Y estás tratando de mantener viva la organización que fundaron, a la que le dieron nacimiento junto con Carlos, no estás muy desocupada. [Risas] MAC: Claro, lo que pasa es que antes hacía más y además no me cansaba, hoy me canso, esa es la diferencia. ML: Bueno, muchísimas gracias. MAC: Ha sido un placer linda, un gran placer. End of recording. Edited by Marina Lopez 8/9/2018 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/4a8502f0dbca6525906b3c1df9d884f0.mp3?Expires=1789603200&Signature=G7Uen%7Eb8kvaQiVwlLCSdZmEDKnBVSIQDI1ZKGXOPHr2TIM03W4kGHDQWie7CxZHVw%7EYt8iiR0i4ke0jd9UtHJf4qJwW9-eh9OulDZU-diml5-wN%7Ei6%7EZ1DhsBiTrcKrSbsRFw-9gPG57L99FdeL0q5AZntdJ7FHvxR3faM7tXRU-KynG6pV%7ETe89sPLMroTpZxamHcPr8k%7E8SEF2HaKlCzrqBYX2amHOMKEWU-ibehpfMxFBBJV2E288DoogvouqODs5NR8C5CtpxPLA6z2pROB1%7ESAc9KXSv76JaMmXDty3-LVFJLJDY1noWM7xQm8mTclMQtb0rKq1IatzWB3RTA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 191b95680a5c89e91a571197575f2b20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marina López Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed María Asunción Córdova Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 10 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of María Asunción Córdova, interviewed by Marina López, 29 June, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Women--Employment--United States Latin Americans--United States Hispanic Americans--Employment Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Description An account of the resource In this second interview, Córdova delves into the vicissitudes of her family, professional and community life in Charleston, South Carolina, where she has lived since the mid-70s. Córdova remembers the obstacles and challenges she faced as an immigrant in establishing herself professionally in the United States, and talks about the beginnings of the Círculo Hispanoamericano de Charleston in 1978, reflecting on the past, present, and future of the organization. She also recalls her participation and leadership in Amnesty International, YWCA and the first editions of Piccolo Spoleto Festival. <br /><br />En esta segunda entrevista Córdova profundiza en las vicisitudes de su vida familiar, profesional y comunitaria en Charleston, Carolina del Sur donde reside desde mediados de los años setenta. En la entrevista, Córdova recuerda los obstáculos y desafíos que sobrellevó para establecerse como profesional extranjera en Estados Unidos y rememora los inicios del Círculo Hispanoamericano de Charleston en el año 1978 reflexionado acerca de la trayectoria, presente y futuro de la organización. También cuenta acerca de su participación y liderazgo en Amnistía Internacional, YWCA y las primeras ediciones de Piccolo Spoleto Festival. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Las Voces del Lowcountry Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource Spanish Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/773 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/36f81f665f5e399824e7a5e9c57c3f7f.mp3?Expires=1789603200&Signature=YHwGRZKXLG%7EOouI02cLfdy1nAuW790bxjkMEm-SQ7La53KlbE5y4eXhlkV0sX0nTwVGxTMC-Z1ba1LINpqvw9uCMzEW4TefhTCF84VvAtvhL0HYa6c5NosXjoIz5XJwPaHxoDUFXppMDx8xoBca-16dda-9qIqsj5rDBkIAiFwBqy6muUFjXZs%7EpSZKuAbCqktPjZtjWWE0XzQ7vrZuwPdOBZUtlh040mW6rKVg913P7cCw1RYtCqqx%7EVHvO81yw87MxuBZsi%7ETeVPyWCkPPMtiuy44QJgUdpOhPtTLM8NqJevySt5BrfIjC37%7E1ldt5rsAtqiC6ePCjTxd6DaKDiw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 4eca797dc61e13d80f84b56d8d07eec8 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/0651553d934699e0773504195b11c64f.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=Mpe4nlwcPFL5z-FVrxTy-99aUlaD4Zmbi3OCPeH0G3aCCNb4MAR84jkXxnnkeu4Z9utP3kU6uE442NkxBF62EBSGjLRu7MH5JCXuazhehi887A8%7EQOhi697v45EM1xIUxQphsowfQQtavytDJ8tYr7plUXAY0rldgxoyhCFshb7B4%7EQ4se2tTB%7EMPClPysQIDT3j9Ph8n8jHO9KEgCnKG9t4FoO0U-B%7Enlcy6PmfBHAVjpkQ7Byf-idHmwq%7EpJYlOX38wbmgtM-w445h-OdtCcyF0URsnLdnjIlgm6QU4HjjYOlMr1XDbhzxojmS4lynha6r1IVrOJJFeGZVKNyyRQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 416894e0b5875c330476b580d4f0a109 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPCION - MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA Narradora: MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA Entrevistadora: MARINA LÓPEZ Fecha: 21 de junio, 2016 Lugar: Mount Pleasant, SC Duración: 54 min. MARINA LÓPEZ: Mi nombre es Marina López y estoy haciendo una entrevista para el proyecto de historia oral, Voces Latinas del Lowcontry. Estoy con María Salinas, hoy es 21 de julio. MARIA ASUNCION CORDOVA: Junio. ML: ¿De Junio? ML: Sí. 21 de junio de 2016. ¿María, te podés presentar por favor? MAC: Sí, buenos días ¿qué hora es? Las once y media de la mañana, estamos en un lindo jardín trabajando, yo soy María Asunción Córdova Requena, en este país soy María Asunción Córdova Salinas, porque hay que agregar el apellido del marido, pero en muchas partes, he sido nada más que María Asunción Córdova, cualquiera de mis actividades personales era María Asunción Córdova ¿qué más? ML: ¿Me puedes decir dónde naciste y cuándo naciste? MAC: Ya ni me acuerdo. [Risas] MAC: Hace como un siglo, yo nací en Punta Arenas [Chile], en la provincia de Magallanes, mirando al Estrecho de Magallanes y viví ahí hasta los11 años. ML: ¿Qué estaba haciendo tu familia tan al sur María? �MAC: Bueno, es una historia larga, mi papi [Miguel Córdova] desde luego fue el primero que se recibió de profesional, sus hermanos eran profesores, pero normalistas, que en ese tiempo no era considerado profesional y él entonces en vez de volver a Antofagasta, que es donde él vivía, obtuvo un cargo en Punta Arenas, fue el primer bioquímico profesional que llegó allá, trabajaba en un hospital. Por otro lado, mi mami, ella nació en Coronel Pringles cerca de Buenos Aires, su abuela, su mamá quiero decir, en ese tiempo parece que llegaron argentinos habían venido de la provincia de Gualeguay creo que era en ese tiempo de Paraguay, pero de alguna manera quedaron finalmente en Argentina. Una de sus hermanas de mi abuela, se fue a vivir a Punta Arenas y tenía una sombrerería, en el intertanto, mi abuela se casó con mi abuelo Blas, que era un valenciano muy vivo y como todos los españoles, que se creían caballeros, consideraba que trabajar era un poco como deshonrado, así que en general no trabajaba mucho, pero sí le gustaba jugar y arruinó a mi abuela y mi abuela tuvo que llegar, ir a Punta Arenas donde su hermana y empezar a trabajar con ella. El intertanto mi abuelo decidió irse a vivir a España con su hermana y con sus hijos ML: Tenés idea, ¿cómo fue que tu tía fue a poner una sombrerería en Punta Arenas? MAC: Ni idea. Yo me imagino que, en esa época, Punta Arenas era una ciudad tremendamente exitosa como ciudad, porque tenía—primero no estaba el Canal de Panamá, así que todos los barcos pasaban por allá, el primer Banco Británico de todo Suramérica fue en Punta Arenas. ML: No tenía idea MAC: Claro y bueno, era puerto libre, en fin, tenía un montón, era extremadamente fácil de tener éxito en ese trabajo, en ese lugar. ML: Así que no sabes nada de cuál fue la jornada de ella desde Coronel Pringles, cómo �llegó hasta allá, no tenés ni idea. MAC: No, lamentablemente no y tenía un tío que había quedado en Buenos Aires, vivía en Esparza 15, que era profesor también y yo era muy joven, no me interesaban esas cosas y ahora lo lamento porque él no tuvo hijos y el que sabía más era otro tío, hermano de mi mami, pero también ya no queda nadie de ellos. ML: Y entonces tu mamá se mudó a Punta Arenas y ¿ahí se encontró con tu papá? MAC: Exacto, después de España, finalmente mi abuelo se empezó a morir y entonces decidió volver a Punta Arenas y de hecho falleció al poco tiempo y mi mami quedó allá, estudió el último año de humanidades allá y luego estudió dentística en Santiago, después que llegó recibida, conoció a mi papi. ML: Así que se fue a Santiago a estudiar y le fue… MAC: Después se volvió a Punta Arenas y ahí lo conoció. ML: Y ahí lo conoció. ¿Y ahí naciste? MAC: Ahí nací yo. ML: ¿Cómo fue tu infancia en Punta Arenas? ¿Qué te acordás de eso? MAC: Muy rica, muy, muy rica. Primera cosa muy interesante, yo nací en mi casa, que todavía existe en Punta Arenas, en la Calle Roca, argentino ¿no? En la Calle Roca y en esa época todavía no era muy adecuado usar hospitales y no habían aparecido las clínicas, ya mi hermano dos años después, nació en una clínica, pero yo fui en la casa. ML: Sos la primogénita. MAC: Claro, yo soy la primogénita. ML: ¿Cuántos hermanos tienes María? MAC: Dos, dos hermanos menores, que ahora son los mayores por supuesto. �ML: ¿Ellos te cuidan? ¿Por eso? MAC: Sí, se preocupan de mí, pero más que nada, pretensión tú sabes, que mi abuela, por ejemplo, para poder jubilarse, tuvo que aumentar como 20 años, porque se quitaba la edad, porque eso era terrible decir la edad y yo quedé con esa tara. ML: [Risas]. Ahora te entiendo. Así que no confesás cuantos años tenés. MAC: Me cuesta mucho, lo hago cuando es absolutamente necesario. ML: Te vamos a perdonar en esta ocasión. MAC: Te voy a contar que mis nietos no podían entender, porqué yo era menor que su mamá ML: [Risas] MAC: Hasta muy poco tiempo atrás, cuando de repente descubrieron mi edad y entonces me miraban con cara de sospecha. ML: ¿Así que ha sido coquetería toda la vida? MAC: Toda la vida, tú sabes que más que coquetería es algo… acá no dicen el peso, nadie te dice el peso, allá especialmente los españoles y los chilenos, tampoco te dicen la edad, de hecho, tú sabes que es famoso en Chile celebrar el santo, no el cumpleaños. En el santo nadie te pregunta cuántos cumpliste. ML: Tienes razón. ¿Cuándo es tu santo? MAC: El 15 de agosto, el día de la Asunción. ML: El día de la Asunción, que no es tu cumpleaños. MAC: No es mi cumpleaños. Yo ahora acá celebro mi cumpleaños, trato de que nadie me pregunte la edad y, además, lo celebro con mis hijos nada más, porque ya ellos me han descubierto. �ML: [Risas] MAC: Los dos hijos mayores tienen ya 50 años, yo les digo - Ah, tenemos la misma edad. ML: [Risas]. MAC: Ya me alcanzaron. Y ellos… en fin. ML: Revolean los ojos, solamente. MAC: Eso es, más o menos eso. [00:07:27 interrupción]. ML: Te criaste en Punta Arenas, ¿cómo era tu infancia en la ciudad en Punta Arenas? MAC: Mi infancia bueno, fue muy protegida, mi papi era muy cuidadoso en las amistades que teníamos y fui a un british school, que tenía profesores que venían directamente de Inglaterra, así que yo aprendí a leer y a escribir primero en inglés que en castellano. Después cuando me fui a Santiago a un colegio laico normal, fue terrible, porque yo me sacaba un uno toda la vida en dictado, porque no sabía escribir. ML: No sabías escribir en español. MAC: Claro, no había aprendido, digamos eso qué hay después de la “n” de la “s” todas esas cosas de gramática. ML: ¿Cómo te explicas la decisión de tu papá de mandarte a una escuela británica? MAC: Pues, es una buena pregunta, era un buen colegio, la otra posibilidad eran las monjas y ni él ni la mami a pesar de que eran católicos, de casarse en la iglesia y cosa, no iban a la iglesia, entonces no querían que tuviéramos esa educación tan extremadamente religiosa, en el sentido antiguo, que era muy lleno de culpa, sobre todo las monjitas. Así que, y no había otra alternativa, la otra era el colegio alemán y ni ellos ni nadie sabía �hablar alemán, excepto los alemanes. ML: ¿Así que en cierta forma eran progresistas tu mamá y tu papá? MAC: Sí, sí, muy progresistas. ML: ¿Eso corría en la familia también? MAC: Claro, mi tío era uno de las eminencias grises de los socialistas. ML: ¿Quién era? MAC: ¿Mi tío? ML: Ajá. MAC: Se llamaba Luis Requena y el segundo apellido de ellos era Aizcorbe. Él vivió en España con mi mami, hizo amistades allá, él era mayor, así que aprendió mucho, era la época de la, más o menos, ya había movimientos de pre-guerra civil y él en la época de la guerra civil sufrió mucho, ya estaba en Punta Arenas. Él era intermediario de cartas, de gente que estaba escondida, gente que se había ido a Francia para que no los descubrieran y luego después escribía a veces, muchos de los discursos de los presidentes socialistas en Chile los escribía él y cuando ya estaba muy enfermo, vino el último presidente que ya, cuando él ya estaba casi por fallecer, que fue el presidente [Ricardo] Lagos, hizo un viaje a visitarlo a Punta Arenas, porque siempre fue muy- y lo más interesante de todo esto, es que a pesar de su- que todo el mundo sabía que era socialista, no era, era un hombre muy sensato, amigo de todo el mundo y de hecho en la época del golpe de estado, era íntimo amigo del obispo de Punta Arenas. Cuando vino el golpe de estado, la mayoría de los socialistas y la gente que estaba en el gobierno, cayó preso a la Isla Dawson y era cerca de Punta Arenas y él tuvo una semana un bus militar afuera de la puerta de su casa y aterrados pensando en cualquier momento lo vienen a �sacar y finalmente entró un oficial muy serio, él lo hizo pasar, lo sentó en el living y cuando llegó mi tía aterrada, temblando, estaban hablando de esoterismo y cosas, no le pasó nada, era un hombre muy, muy especial, porque era muy humanitario, él era socialista y muy socialista, porque creía en la justicia, hoy en día creo que estaría muy enojado con los socialistas en Chile. ML: ¿Con lo que está pasando en Chile? MAC: Claro, porque están —todo el mundo ahora tiene un precio, todo el mundo ahora se compromete para obtener algo— en esos tiempos tú eras lo que eras y punto, no comprometías. ML: Tu mamá me decís que era profesional también ¿verdad? MAC: Sí, ella era dentista. ML: Ella también tenía trabajo social, trabajo en la comunidad, ¿lo aprendiste de ella también? MAC: Bueno, ella trabajaba en el servicio de salud, entonces cuando era pequeña yo, trabajaba en una clínica para niños, se llamaba Protinfancia, protección de la infancia, siempre estuvo muy preocupada por los niños que ella atendía y después llegamos a Santiago [de Chile] y finalmente también fue a trabajar en un colegio, ella siempre se envolvía, no es que fuera a las casas a dar dinero, pero se preocupaba mucho y era muy progresista, bueno y también era escritora tu sabes. ML: No sabía. MAC: Claro, era dramaturga y fue muy, muy famosa en su época, escribió obras históricas y obras en general costumbristas, todas basadas en realidad. ML: ¿Cómo se llamaba tu mamá? MAC: María Asunción Requena, tengo una foto de ella, te la voy a mostrar, así que �bueno, te imaginarás la infancia nuestra, bueno en Punta Arenas fue muy rico, muy protegido, pero mi mami se separó de mi papi cuando yo tenía once años, nos fuimos a vivir a Santiago y en Santiago la vida cambió muchísimo. Bueno, aquí te la muestro. La vida cambio muchísimo para nosotros, porque bueno, de yo ser la reina del universo en Punta Arenas, llegar a Santiago, donde teníamos que viajar en bus todos los días, la gente era tan anti cívica que reclamaban—ay estos niños que están aquí. Fue un año bien feo y en el colegio a mí me saltaron, llegué al colegio, tenía que ir a quinta preparatoria y la profesora encontró que yo estaba muy avanzada y me pasaron a primero humanidades, me saltaron quinto y sexto y resulta que yo con once años, tenía compañeras de quince años, totalmente paradita sola en un rincón, porque las chicas no tenían nada que ver conmigo. ML: Otro universo. MAC: Oh, claro, iban a fiestas imagínate, yo ni medias nylon, porque en esa época llegaba una edad que tú te ponías medias nylon. ML: Claro, claro. MAC: Yo ni eso. ML: Ni eso. MAC: Así que ese año fue malo. Después ya me fui a un liceo, eso fue mejor, ahí ya tuve amigas, las chicas eran más de la edad mía. ML: Había alguien. ¿Por qué tu mamá eligió Santiago para mudarse? MAC: Bueno porque Santiago es donde pasan las cosas. Chile es tan centralizado, algo hay en Valparaíso que está cerca, pero —algo en Concepción y ahora han puesto universidades en todas partes, de hecho eso lo hizo Pinochet, que por un lado fue bueno, porque hay centros culturales, pero por otro reventó a los colegios de profesionales, entonces ahora si bien es cierto �hay muchos centros culturales que son buenos, también hay muchos que hay hampa, que aparecen por todas partes, por ahí hay una escuela de dental que no tiene ni clínicas, se enseña todo en el pizarrón y bueno y esa gente sale y saca su licencia, porque allá no hay como acá un board y bueno, dejan tremenda cosa. ML: Cuándo tu mamá se va a Santiago o antes también en Santiago, ¿ella tenía su carrera profesional y también trabajaba en el teatro? ¿Hacia las dos cosas? MAC: Sí, en esa época estaba escribiendo, es muy divertido, en esa época, ella estaba todavía muy influenciada por el teatro español del tipo de García Lorca, con poemas y cosas, así que escribió unas obritas por ahí que nunca más se vieron ¿no? Y varias poesías, se ganaba los premios de poesía la Reina, La Fiesta de la Primavera, la poesía, todas esas cosas ella se las ganaba. ML: ¿Irse a Santiago fue un cambio para ustedes también para estar más expuesto a esta otra oferta cultural? MAC: Fue la realidad de un viaje, claro porque bueno, ella también por otro lado, había escrito recién una obra allá, que la terminó en Chile, en Santiago, y ella quería realmente escribir y en Punta Arenas no había dónde y en Santiago estaba la Escuela Experimental de Teatro, que ahora se llama Instituto del Teatro, que era de la Universidad de Chile que tenía los mejores profesores, entonces ella empezó a ir a clases y escribió una obra en clase que se llamó Fuerte Bulnes. Fuerte Bulnes es el centro que ahora es una reliquia, donde llegaron los primeros habitantes a esa zona, tuvieron ahí un año creo, sufriendo de increíblemente y luego se movieron hacia el lado de Punta Arenas, que era clima mucho más agradable, más hospitalario. ML: Así que esa fue tu experiencia entrando a la adolescencia y te recibiste muy jovencita entonces del high school. �MAC: Claro, claro. ML: ¿Qué hiciste después de que te recibiste de high school? MAC: Bueno, cuando salí del high school, allá salimos con el bachillerato, creo que igual que en Argentina y yo pasé por todas las carreras. Bueno, cuando era pequeña, pasábamos los veranos en una casa de la playa frente al mar, que era una zona muy honda del estrecho, así que los barcos de guerra pasaban muy cerca y yo aprendí a saludarlos con bandera, a veces mi papi iba a hacer este... porque él era patrón de yate que era, no sé esas cosas civiles de la gente que le gusta el mar, entonces a veces él iba haciendo práctica, nos tocaban el pito, ¿cómo se llama? ML: El silbato, la bocina. MAC: El silbato del barco, así que fascinante y yo entonces quería ser marino y mi mami me dijo que la única parte del mundo que había marinos era en Rusia, así que yo decía bueno, me iré a Rusia o sea ahí empecé, de ahí pase... ML: ¿Tu amor a Rusia? MAC: Mi amor a Rusia, claro, porque para mí siempre Rusia fue fascinante y después más grande, pasé por, qué se yo, de todas las carreras que te puedes imaginar, menos dentística. Y mi mami después cuando se separó de mi papi, apareció un tío nuestro que no era tío, pero que había sido muy cercano a mi mami desde que era pequeño, mucho menor que mi mami además y él siempre me decía “te vas a casar con un dentista y vas a estudiar dentística” y yo decía “ni por nada.” Bueno y llegó el momento de decidir qué iba a hacer y me presenté a la escuela dental y todo el mundo se presentaba a varias escuelas, medicina, dental, otras servicio social, otras pedagogía, yo puro dental, qué lanzada, porque yo podría no haber quedado y me quedaba todo el año, pero quedé. Ahí fue dónde estaba mirando yo mi resultado y al lado mío había un joven muy grande, �muy buen mozo, reclamando, porque teníamos el mismo puntaje y por qué a mí me habían puesto primero, y ese era Carlos [Salinas]. ML: [Risas] Así se conocieron, compitiendo se conocieron. MAC: Compitiendo sí, él furioso porque teníamos el mismo puntaje, pero claro, yo soy Córdova, él era Salinas, entonces primeros pero el no, catorce y quince ya el número menos, así que así fue, así lo conocí. Y bueno, en Santiago la vida no fue fácil al principio, porque mi mami estaba muy ocupada creciendo ella, entonces nos tenía un poco abandonados, por suerte, como los tres éramos bien unidos, no nos dimos cuenta del abandono y estábamos muy contentos y bueno con las novedades y a veces era difícil viajar al colegio, sobre todo en una época que vivimos en un barrio muy lejos y a veces nos tocaba viajar de noche al colegio en bus y esos buses con gente en la (00:20:56), una época que no fue muy agradable. Después ya se empezó a componer, nos cambiamos a un barrio más bonito y yo empecé a tener buenas amigas, no me dejaban ir a fiestas, pero me iba a alojar a donde mi amiga, que sí la dejaban, íbamos a fiestas con ella. ML: Te escapabas y encontrabas tu manera de ir a las fiestas. MAC: Claro, claro, mi mami me dejaba ir a alojar porque era una buena amiga, ella conocía a la familia y todo, así que ahí se compuso todo. ML: Ahí se compuso. ¿Cómo siguió la historia después de que se encontraron ahí mirando la nota del ingreso con Carlos? ¿Cómo siguió la historia de ustedes? MAC: Bueno, ese año había una, porque imagínate, “C y S” bien lejos, éramos cien alumnos en ese momento, después quedamos como setenta algo así, bueno, quedaron, él —por alguna razón empezaron hacer— había una huelga que duró mucho, en ese tiempo no me �acuerdo ni lo que querían los estudiantes y nosotros fuimos víctimas de eso, entonces lo que hicimos fue un grupo para estudiar y parece que nos agruparon por puntaje, porque como todavía no había una lista, la cosa es que yo quedé en su grupo, quedamos él quedó en mi grupo digamos. Ahí nos hicimos amigos, fuimos íntimos amigos, pero así íntimos amigos por un año, yo estaba enamorada de un chico, él estaba enamorado de una chica y nos contábamos las penas, íbamos al cine juntos, lo pasábamos regio, pero íntimos amigos, hasta que un día de repente todo cambió y fue en un año nuevo en una fiesta, el papá de él era dentista del ejército, fuimos a una fiesta de año nuevo y ahí empezamos a bailar y que se yo, de repente como que el baile se puso más romántico y terminamos siendo pololos y por supuesto fue un pololeo que toda la escuela estaba al tanto, porque peleábamos, nos volvíamos, una época nos había dado por casarnos, éramos la parejita. ML: Era la pareja de las revistas. MAC: Claro, todo el mundo enterado de todo lo que estaba pasando “están peleados de nuevo.” Yo me iba a Punta Arenas y Carlos acá furioso, porque yo de repente tenía algún admirador en Punta Arenas, porque mi papi cuando se separaron, se volvió a Punta Arenas, así que él vivía allá, así que pasábamos los veranos con él. ML: ¿Así que dejabas al pololo y te ibas para Punta Arenas? MAC: Claro y aparecían montones de admiradores, incluso una vez tuve una fiesta en la primavera y me eligieron reina, así que fue —Carlos desesperado y en ese tiempo no tenía todavía fondos como para viajar a Punta Arenas, así que sufría, sufría. ML: No te podía perseguir. MAC: No podía perseguirme. �ML: No te podía perseguir. Y ¿cómo fue que se convirtieron en novios finalmente y se casaron? MAC: Bueno, tuvimos una ruptura seria, yo me enojé, me fui a Punta Arenas y me quedé allá más del tiempo necesario, hasta que llegó a Punta Arenas y ya cuando llegó a Punta Arenas, ya cuando yo lo vi que estaba tan bonito, se me pasó toda la rabia y ya ahí decidimos que nos íbamos a casar y de hecho creo que; no me acuerdo, creo que ya estaba en el último año, yo perdí un año por eso, estaba en el último año. ML: ¿Por estar enojada con el pololo perdiste un año? MAC: Claro, me fui a Punta Arenas furiosa y me fui. Él terminó en mayo, junio, algo así y en julio nos casamos, con el puro papel en la mano, porque no tenía ni trabajo, ni nada. ML: Se casaron de ganas de casarse. MAC: De ganas de casarnos. ML: ¿Cuánto pasó entre tiempo en que se habían conocido hasta que se casaron? MAC: Imagínate, la escuela dental son cinco años y más el año que yo me fui seis años. ML: Seis años, seis años, y entonces ¿te volviste con él a Santiago? MAC: Bueno, yo volví a mi casa, él volvió a la de él, nos casamos, ah no, yo me fui a estudiar a Viña del Mar, porque pensé que iba a tener otro compañero, iba a ser una. No me hizo gracia y la verdad es que me fui a Viña del Mar y fue lo mejor que pude hacer, porque de ser una estudiante del medio, me transformé en una estudiante de las mejores y eso fue muy bueno para mí, incluso para mi ego ¿no? Y además era una escuela pequeña, los chicos eran adorables, habíamos dos, tres mujeres, una no se contaba porque tenía un novio y andaba siempre con él y las otras dos, nosotros éramos intimas amigas de todos los chicos, así que fue muy bonito esa estadía en esa escuela. �ML: ¿Y eso fue antes de casarte? MAC: Es decir, yo llegué a esa escuela, en marzo empezamos, yo me casé en junio, en julio, el 27 de julio. ML: ¿Entonces casados estuvieron en Viña del Mar por un tiempo? MAC: Claro, cuando nos casamos, Carlos se vino a vivir a Viña y mi papi en esa época nos arrendó un departamento, no teníamos todavía un peso nosotros y Carlos empezó a trabajar un poco en Santiago en la clínica de su papá y otro tiempo se conseguía a veces los sábados una oficina donde algún colega y ahí llegaba siempre cuando tenía mucha, mucha suerte, porque a veces no teníamos ni para comprar la comida y él siempre llegaba con dinero, era muy fácil y yo terminé mi último año de dentística, ahora, mientras tanto yo pensaba que iban a pasar cinco años sin que yo tuviera niños, pero no tenía idea como se evitaban los niños, nadie me había enseñado, mi mami jamás hablaba de esas cosas, además ella no estaba muy contenta con el matrimonio. Así que a los cinco meses quedé embarazada, en enero me hicieron un diagnóstico de embarazo y Carlitos nació en septiembre, así que yo el último año lo hice con Carlitos. El penúltimo año fue, iba yo en los buses, pagaba escolar, porque allá había un… Con mi tremenda panza, los choferes furiosos, pero yo nada de cosa, yo decía—sí soy estudiante—no se usaba en esos tiempos y después el último año, a veces iba con Carlitos a la escuela. ML: Cuando decís no se usaba, quieres decir que la sociedad chilena era... MAC: Claro, una mujer embarazada no estudiaba, estaba en su casa y, de hecho, cuando yo entré a la escuela, en medicina había una pareja que no se habían casado y ella había quedado embarazada y fue por años se hablaba de eso y ellos fueron muy valientes, porque todo el mundo supo esto y nada, eso era muy mal visto. ML: De que década estamos hablando, cuando vos fuiste a la universidad como... �MAC: El 60. ML: ¿60? MAC: Sí. ML: En los 60, así que no les había llegado la revolución. MAC: No había llegado. ML: No había llegado para allá. MAC: Así que todas esas cosas eran... ML: ¿Cómo respondió Carlos al embarazo y que vos quisieras seguir estudiando? MAC: Él encantado, él siempre dijo que él era feminista, pero hasta que llegaba a la casa. ML: ¿Le creías? MAC: Cuando me dejaba estudiar por lo menos y me ayudaba mucho, siempre fue muy protector y siempre me ayudaba y siempre preocupado de que yo no fuera, a veces demasiado, como que yo no era capaz de nada, era muy, muy protector, así que siempre me apoyó en ese sentido para que estudiara, si tenía yo que quedarme, si tenía que quedarse con Carlitos; yo por ejemplo teníamos por ejemplo una nana que llegaba, ponle tu a las once de la mañana, y él había conseguido un trabajo en el hospital que empezaba a las once, yo salía temprano a estudiar y él se quedaba con Carlitos encantado de la vida, de hecho por ahí tengo una foto muerto de la risa con Carlitos, aquí arriba encima de él, chiquitito, imagínate de dos meses, tres meses. ML: ¿Cómo fue para vos empezar tu carrera profesional, en que no pensabas tener un bebé tan pronto? ¿Cómo fue para vos establecerte como profesional teniendo un bebe tan chiquito? MAC: Tu sabes que yo era muy irresponsable, para mí no era ningún problema, yo empecé, además no hice mi carrera, no empecé mi carrera en mi profesión, sino que me fui a la �universidad a enseñar y empecé a hacer investigación, primero en deglución, después este terminé y de hecho hice una investigación bien avanzada en deglución, la presenté y ya después pensé, no hay nadie que me ayude, no hay nadie que le interese y me fui a meter a investigación en el sistema nervioso y ahí también era un poco como la regalona de ese departamento, siempre era yo la que hacia las cosas y yo que rico, de hecho fue hace poco de visita hace unos años ya y se acordaban de mi como que yo era algo tan especial y yo decía—pero de dónde-—y a lo mejor era ¿no? A lo mejor era porque yo estaba muy dedicada a esas cosas y a veces los niños me molestaban. ML: Tu hijo. MAC: Sí, porque yo era muy inmadura, igual salía con ellos y los regaloneaba y todo, pero en mi fuero interno yo sentía que eran un estorbo. ML: ¿Qué quieres decir con que eras inmadura? MAC: No había asumido bien mi maternidad obviamente. ML: Te pregunto... MAC: Intelectualmente, muy madura, estaba al tanto de la vida, de la política, cualquier cosa, pero emocionalmente no tenía esa cosa de la mamá, que tiene que estar protegiendo a sus hijos, que se siente como que, qué dolor irme y dejarlos con la nana. ML: No sentías ese dolor de irte. MAC: Para mí que rico, me voy, dejo a los niños con la nana, ella los va a cuidar. ML: Te pregunto, ¿por qué decir inmaduro? Porque a mí me suena como a una mamá muy contemporánea, me suena como una mamá de estos tiempos, que uno tiene intereses profesionales, intereses intelectuales, intereses de mirar el mundo y de pronto... MAC: Yo tenía demasiados intereses. �ML: Y de pronto hay que compartir el mundo con estas creaturas que necesitan tanto. MAC: Claro, claro, claro. ML: ¿Ese era el mensaje que tu comunidad te daba? ¿Qué eras una mamá inmadura? MAC: Seguramente, porque yo sentía que yo no era una buena madre, yo estaba muy ocupada con mis cosas, entonces. Y esa sensación que tiene uno cuando es chico, cuando es pequeño, que, si no mañana el mundo se acaba, tengo que hacerlo, ese tipo de cosas y yo lo veo ahora en los chicos del college, así que la inmadurez en realidad yo más bien la digo ahora y no en ese tiempo. ML: En ese tiempo. MAC: Para mí en ese tiempo era lo normal, así tenía que ser y me envolvía en política, cuando fue en los años, cuando ya tenía mis tres hijos, se empezó una reforma universitaria en Valparaíso, yo estaba ahí a la cabeza de todo, porque muy política, muy muy política. ML: ¿Qué era lo que estaba buscando la reforma universitaria? ¿Porque estaban peleando? MAC: Bueno, en realidad fue—Ahora yo no estoy tan de acuerdo, la idea era que todos participáramos en la gobernación de la universidad, porque te ponían profesores que no eran buenos, a veces incluso cuando yo estuve en la escuela dental, echamos a un profesor con una huelga que duró tres meses, que me siguió mucho a mí porque fueron los tres últimos meses, no, los primeros tres meses de Carlitos, así que pude estar con él todos esos tres meses. ML: Porque estaban de huelga. MAC: Estaban de huelga claro y a pesar de que yo había instigado esa huelga, después me desaparecí, lo cual fue muy feo, pero bueno tenía una buena razón. ML: Y me decías que te habías envuelto en política, en el gobierno de la universidad. �MAC: Sí. ML: ¿Carlos también participaba en eso contigo? MAC: Carlos era mucho más— primero no era tan progresista entre comillas y segundo estaba con los pies más en la tierra, en esa época lo habían puesto por un tiempo reemplazando de jefe de departamento y estaba más dedicado a su cosa, carrera más que nada no, no, desde luego no, no le parecía que era lo que yo debía hacer, para el yo perdía el tiempo haciendo esta cosa y en realidad con mi bebé desde maternal claro que estaba perdiendo el tiempo. Pero eso era lo que a mí me interesaba, siempre yo he tenido eso desde chiquitita, esa sensación de que la justicia es lo más importante, lo justo es lo que vale, puede ser algo, qué se yo, cualquier cosa, siempre para mí lo justo y eso era justo, porque la universidad estaba funcionando mal, algunos profesores, de hecho en Valparaíso habían unos profesores horrendos y en Santiago buenísimos, entonces eso no era correcto, éramos universidad de Chile, también así que y lo interesante de eso fue que en Valparaíso se empezó ese movimiento y luego se extendió por todo el país. ML: ¿El movimiento estudiantil? MAC: Claro, se extendió por todo el país y bueno, después vinieron los cambios políticos, se eligió a Allende. ML: ¿Ustedes estaban allá todavía cuando se eligió Allende? ¿Estabas en Valparaíso todavía? MAC: Claro, claro, en Valparaíso y bueno esa elección fue peleada, no fue fácil y hubo mucho trabajo en Valparaíso para eso. ML: Para que ganara Allende MAC: Claro, y la esperanza de que todo iba a ser bueno y se empezó un poquito a �desvirtuar, porque alguna gente se puso demasiado extremista. Había especialmente socialista que al final ni siguiera quedó de eso, que hacia discursos y decía—¿ven ustedes esa casa? Esa casa no va a ser de ellos, va a ser de ustedes —y cosas así que no eran la idea, porque Allende era socialista, pero era un socialista bastante derecho y eso no era la ideología del partido socialista, quitarles a los ricos para dárselo a los pobres, era hacer justicia, dar más educación, más salud. ML: Ustedes salen de Chile o al menos llegan a Estados Unidos en el 72 ¿verdad? ¿En qué estado...? MAC: En ese momento estaba terrible, fíjate que Carlos se vino en septiembre del 72 y por ahí por octubre se estrenó la última obra que estrenaron de mi mami, yo no pude ir a Santiago a verla, porque había una huelga de camioneros que fue terrible y que fue la que terminó destruyendo a Allende y entonces tenían en los caminos unas cosas que se llamaban miguelitos [explosivos], ¿tú los conoces? ML: Sí. MAC: Y entonces—Y no había ruedas, porque todo, todo, todo desapareció, los almacenes no tenían nada, si tu querías comprar una rueda para tu auto, tenías que hacer una cola a las cinco de la mañana y cuando llegabas al final ya no habían, fue un caos espantoso, terrible, terrible, terrible. ML: ¿Qué fue lo que los decidió a ustedes a salirse de Chile? MAC: Bueno, no fue que nos decidimos a salirnos, nosotros desde el principio queríamos salir becados, porque uno cuando trabaja en la universidad, ese es el fin. ML: Claro que sí. MAC: Y becados para tener mejor formación y volver y entregar lo que tu aprendiste, y �en el año 72 a Carlos le salió una beca para el NIH [National Institutes of Health], que fue la primera beca que le dan a un dentista en Chile, porque esas becas siempre se las daban a médicos. Así que fue una cosa fantástica, yo a esas alturas tenía ofrecida una beca a Checoeslovaquia, que era donde estaba un centro de electrofisiología de los más avanzados, pero decidimos que Checoeslovaquia, porque nunca pensamos que iba a pasar todo lo que pasó en Chile. Nosotros pensamos, bueno, va a haber un gobierno, va a ser complicado y luego seguiremos con las elecciones como siempre, así que decidimos que mejor venir acá porque después iba a haber más negociaciones con Europa, que, con Estados Unidos, así que por eso decidimos venirnos para acá. Así que yo conseguí una beca con la Panamerican Health Organization, parte de la World’s Health y nos vinimos a trabajar a Hopkins [Johns Hopkins University]. ML: ¿Conseguiste tu propio trabajo? ¿Él se consigue su beca? MAC: Claro. ML: Y tú también te consigues tu propia beca. MAC: Claro, yo me consigo una también ML: Bien luchadora ¿eh? Porque te digo, otra mujer hubiera dicho, mi marido consiguió un trabajo, yo vine así, o mi marido consiguió un trabajo y yo lo seguí. Tú te buscaste tu propia beca también. MAC: Claro, claro, el me costó. ML: Me imagino. Y ¿ya a esa altura tenías los tres niños? MAC: Claro. ¿Qué diferencia tienen tus niños de edad? MAC: Bueno, Carlos y Andrés tienen un año y nueve meses y Lolita tienes tres años de �Andrés o sea que... ML: Así que tuvieron unos años trabajando como profesionales allá, hasta que se vinieron. MAC: Sí, claro y Carlos era el dentista de moda. ML: ¿El dentista de moda en Valparaíso? MAC: En Viña [del Mar], claro. Sí, nosotros vamos a volver. ML: Claro. MAC: Porque teníamos una vida bastante rica en Viña y bueno nos vinimos a Hopkins no fue fácil, para Carlos fue muy bonito, para mí fue un poco más difícil, porque estaba en el departamento de neurocirugía, trabajando sola, hice una cantidad de trabajo increíble, pero nunca nada se concretó en algo, yo ahora miro para atrás y digo, yo podría haber hecho tantos trabajos, por ejemplo armé, trabajaba con monos, los macaca mulatta, que son esos monos experimentales grandes, los armaba por ejemplo y les hacia un estudio de sueño toda la noche, entonces armaba el equipo de tal manera porque yo sabía mucha electrónica en ese tiempo, ahora ya no sé nada, es increíble como a uno se le olvidan las cosas, yo en ese tiempo desarmaba y armaba condensadores, lo que tú me dijeras, la cosa es que armé un equipo de tal manera, porque en ese tiempo era con tinta no había digital, para que no se acabara la tinta, y entonces le puse electrodos, para saber qué pasaba con su sistema nervioso, porque la idea mía era que con la epilepsia, se producía algo, era una forma de evitar que la persona dejara de soñar y por lo tanto no se volviera loco, porque cuanto tu pones a un animalito y no lo dejas dormir, empieza a tener epilepsia y así se repone, entonces al final nunca pude probar esa teoría obviamente y de hecho la epilepsia sigue siendo la fuente de mucho conocimiento, pero nadie ha sabido como pararla, excepto con medicinas. �ML: Además de tu dificultad en el trabajo ¿cómo fue tu proceso de adaptación como esposa cambiando de Chile a Estados Unidos? MAC: Fue más fácil, porque como estábamos, éramos una especie de núcleo contra el mundo, porque no conocíamos nada y vino una chica a ayudarnos, que se quedó con nosotros tres años me parece, muy amorosa. ML: ¿Una chica de Chile? MAC: De Chile. Y la novedad para mí, yo nunca en mi vida había cocinado, pensar en Chile que tenía que decirle a una señora que es lo que va a hacer hoy, ay era tan terrible, imagínate llegar acá, bueno, mientras estaba Lorenza, ella hacía la comida, teníamos un horario, el lunes tallarines, el martes guate y así ¿no? Así que era más fácil, pero cuando ya se fue ella, fue horrible, lo hice, pero yo siempre decía, mis niños nunca van a echar de menos mi comida. ML: [Risas] MAC: Porque yo hecho la comida que hay acá y la de allá, hacia unas mezclas bien rápidas y salía la comida. ML: Y ahí arrancaba. MAC: Las veces que hacia buenas comidas era para los años nuevos y las navidades y Thanksgiving, después, porque al principio Thanksgiving, si no nos invitaban, ahí quedábamos tranquilos, los niños furiosos porque ellos ya estaban aprendiendo ¿no? Hasta que finalmente Andrés el del medio, es el más tradicional, él dijo, no mamá, vamos a tener que hacer un Thanksgiving, porque mi amigo tiene un pavo de treinta y tres libras, nosotros tenemos que comprar de treinta y cinco y así empezamos. ML: [Risas]. Escúchame una cosa y como fue y esta es la última pregunta y así cortamos y después podemos seguir otro día, ¿Cómo fue el cambio, por qué terminaron viniendo a �Charleston? MAC: Bueno, un año de beca fue muy corto, entonces pedimos autorización para quedarnos otro año, porque en realidad tú en el año estás abriendo los ojos, casi no aprendes mucho porque estás adaptándote, el segundo año es más productivo y ya en el segundo año viene el golpe de estado y mi hermano menor que estaba muy, pero muy, así hasta "acá" envuelto en política, gracias a Dios estaba acá con mi papi visitando, mi otro hermano trabajaba para el gobierno, entonces rapidito también salió. Mi mami que era tan progresista, después de un tiempo dijo yo no aguanto esto y se fue invitada a Europa y se quedó en Europa y llegaban rumores de que por ejemplo a los niños, desde preparatoria los iban a hacer una especie de servicio militar, después llegó un telegrama diciéndome, “si no se presenta en quince días, vamos a tener que cortarle su contrato”. Yo no me podía presentar en quince días, imagínate, si estábamos en la mitad de una beca, así que me echaron de la universidad y a Carlos también y entre todas esas cosas y todos los terribles rumores que se producían. Carlos trabajaba con un muchacho que era también dentista, que también estudiaba genética en la Clínica Moore, en Baltimore, en Johns Hopkins y él lo invitó que viniera acá a trabajar, porque había una escuela dental muy progresista y que estaba recién empezando. Y así llegamos acá, cuando vinimos a conocer, fuimos al camino ese al [00:46:49] y dijimos esta es la avenida Perú, era igual así con el río, como el mar allá, así que nos gustó mucho y nos vinimos en el año—ahora esto fue en el año 75 y lo que yo hice, porque me habían invitado a New York también a una clínica, también de brain research, me habían invitado a una clínica de New York University, entonces nos vinimos acá y yo volví a New York y me quedé allá tres meses y ellos se quedaron acá, Lorenza se quedó con ellos. �Y esa es otra historia, lo pasé estupendo, la inmadura encantada de la vida conociendo el mundo. ML: Y conociendo el mundo bien independiente. ¿Tus nietas saben todas estas historias tuyas? MAC: No. Fíjate. ML: ¿No? MAC: No, yo me hago la mojigata. ML: [Risas] Yo voy a hacer esta entrevista, la voy a hacer pública para que ellas sepan, bueno, porque realmente que interesante esto de ver, uno dice las mujeres de antes se quedaban en la casa cocinando y que hay tantas hermanas, hay tantas hermanas y almas con las que uno se puede identificar en otros momentos de la vida y de la historia ¿verdad? Qué bueno que te pudiste tomar todas esas libertades ¿y Carlos? MAC: Carlos reclamaba un poco, pero se daba la razón o qué sé yo, porque no era muy razonable, pero pensaba, cómo le voy a impedir esas cosas, eso fue un tremendo avance para mí. ML: Y vos te lo habías ganado, todas las cosas por las que vos habías trabajado muy duro. MAC: Claro y me habían invitado o sea no es que yo hubiera pedido o algo así. ML: ¿Cómo fue vivir la tragedia política de Chile desde el exterior para vos? MAC: Ay horrible, horrible, primero los primeros. Primero, estábamos pasando el verano nosotros andábamos, habíamos ido a Cape Cove, habíamos ido a Canadá y ya estábamos volviendo por las Cataratas del Niágara, era el último stop que íbamos a hacer y llegamos a un hotel y nos dicen “ay ¿ustedes de donde son?” “De Chile”, “ah, hay una tremenda revolución” “no, no, no en Chile, debe ser Bolivia, Perú, Chile tiene cincuenta años de democracia.” Ese era �nuestro orgullo de venir de allá, cuando prendemos la tele y vemos el avión bombardeando La Moneda. Ah, se nos cayó el mundo. Menos a mi hermano menor que estaba ya con nosotros, que ya sabía qué iba a pasar, pero no se vino por eso, sino porque mi papá insistió en que lo acompañara, así que fue horrible, doloroso, doloroso, no saber, no saber qué pasaba, los universitarios todos sufrieron muchísimo, muchos desaparecieron y luego mi mami como era intelectual, había aparecido en el diario apoyando a Allende, habían puesto una montonera de nombres y caras así en la tapa de un diario, no me acuerdo que diario, apoyando a Allende, entonces peligroso también, porque qué sabías tú lo que iban a hacer con la gente y mi hermano que trabajaba en el ministerio con él, pero poco a poco se fue aclarando y bueno las cosas siguieron por muchos años. Yo empecé trabajar con Amnistía Internacional, así que no podía trabajar con Chile en ese tiempo, porque no permitían que uno trabajara en su propio país. ML: Porque esa era la manera en la que—sí, no sé si sigue trabajando de la misma manera... MAC: Ahora sí, ahora cambiaron, ahora acá trabajan con Estados Unidos, antes solamente se podía trabajar con la pena de muerte, ahora se puede hacer cualquier cosa. ML: ¿Había en ese momento en Estados Unidos una comunidad chilena o una comunidad internacional, haciendo presión por las cosas que estaban pasando? MAC: Muchísimo, muchísimo. ML: ¿Cómo se comunicaban María, antes del internet? MAC: Bueno, en New York se juntaban y así iban juntándose y haciendo reuniones y cosa. Yo justamente llegué a New York en esa época y venían, yo me acuerdo que vinieron por ejemplo los Intillimany con la señora de Víctor Jara, ahí se juntaba la gente, enseguida se �planeaban otras cosas, muy activos, muy activos a diferencia de acá que no pasaba nada. ML: Y habrá sido difícil eso para ti MAC: Horrible, horrible, bueno no había Facebook, así que era por teléfono y nada más y teníamos reuniones, yo iba, Carlos me permitía eso también, me dejaba ir a las reuniones a pesar de que para él yo perdía el tiempo, pero me dejaba, no armaba escándalo, a veces cuando iba a buscarme estaba medio murrado, pero se le pasaba. ML: Se le pasaba. Yo vi una carta tuya en el diario contestándole a alguien que hablaba sobre Chile y vos hablas de Allende en la carta y le decís que... MAC: Ah, sí, esa carta era un artículo de Bob [Robert Cox]. ML: Ah, no digas, entonces vos le contestas la carta, el original no la vi, pero le contestas que Allende era un presidente que había tenido treinta años trabajando en el congreso y que era importante rescatar eso y que no hacía falta hablar de los problemas personales de él, porque no le agregaba nada a la conversación. MAC: Claro, claro Bob había escrito un artículo contra Allende. ML: Ah no te puedo creer, pero a mí me resultó... MAC: Esto debe haber sido... ML: Ochenta y pico. MAC: Esto debe haber sido algo, no fue contra Allende, algo escribió porque Bob como estaba trabajando con Argentina tanto, estaba muy envuelto también en ver lo que estaba pasando en toda América, entonces escribió, hizo un comentario así a la pasada, un mujeriego presidente y cómo se llama, Pinochet voto a este presidente que era un mujeriego y un bueno pa’ nada, una especie de cosa así. ML: Y la carta es del 84, así que probablemente haya sido un análisis de las dictaduras de �Latinoamérica o algo así. MAC: Exacto, entonces él habló de Allende en una forma que a mí me pareció incorrecta y yo le dije a él y se moría de la risa, él estaba esperando a ver que carta sería. ML: Pero qué interesante, pero qué interesante lo que me decís, porque a mí me llamó la atención, que hay varias cartas tuyas, cartas de los lectores, pero, pero, que te tomaras el trabajo de aclarar en Charleston quien era el presidente Allende, entonces… ML: No, y en esa época yo estaba muy, muy involucrada con Amnistía y los Cox trabajaron conmigo mucho tiempo en Amnistía, hicimos cosas bien lindas, bien, bien. ML: Bueno todo eso vamos a hablar en la próxima vez. Muchísimas gracias por tu tiempo, muchísimas gracias. Final de la entrevista Editada por ML 08/08/2018 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/129756f8b2717994c725a050bf30b87d.jpg?Expires=1789603200&Signature=jaSVUZfnNrzkkr9zFOL3YXK4cnHzEumY%7Egivd3C15mDUFQAF%7EqmwQ7UqK91BaqECBed-CW7Negqha4P-Tu6dJ-ESkYUVu4Qa3bbzmqgcf8MTz4vVuX4sdcFZ6EFlMJEMw6RrpPHk%7EeMPEfxfRFJU2avu-Q-uOti0ohB3M6QutzNyF9TxiEOuS-fBaVLsuJA86u7Mc7B3cWpHD01aeQTY2tdN3NNMpNM5DS6nQyJ5Dari2jBXznTIYotsNyLaVML6%7ELm3qJ4ql8dwkeJBV6guZV%7ELf4uh10VoBt96p4tXNup4SvkTd0EUduiXy1rXsRJXtlF5RljGKbYv-Qas8rELfg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 94de48c3f28cdf0d5dfc795dd5e5d161 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marina López Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed María Asunción Córdova Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 55 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of María Asunción Córdova, interviewed by Marina López, 21 June, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Women--Employment--United States Latin Americans--United States Hispanic Americans--Employment Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Community leadership Description An account of the resource María Asunción Córdova was born and grew up in Punta Arenas, Chile. She is the daughter of Miguel Córdova and the writer María Asunción Requena. When she was eleven years old, her parents divorced and she moved with her mother and her two brothers to Santiago de Chile. Cordova attended the University of Chile, where she graduated with the title of Doctor in Dental Surgery. There, she met her husband, Dr. Carlos Salinas. In 1972, Córdova and Salinas relocated to Baltimore, Maryland to work at Johns Hopkins University. In this interview, Córdova remembers her life in Chile and reflects on her experiences as a young professional, mother, and activist. <br /><br />María Asunción Córdova nació y vivió su infancia en Punta Arenas, Chile. Es hija de Miguel Córdova y de la escritora María Asunción Requena. Cuando tenía once años sus padres se divorciaron y tuvo que mudarse junto a su madre y sus dos hermanos a Santiago de Chile. Córdova estudió en la Universidad de Chile, donde se graduó con el título de Doctor en Cirugía Dental. Allí conoció a su esposo, el Dr. Carlos Salinas. En 1972, Córdova y Salinas se radicaron en Baltimore, Maryland para trabajar en la Universidad Johns Hopkins. En esta entrevista, Córdova recuerda su vida en Chile y reflexiona sobre sus experiencias como joven profesional, madre y activista. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Las Voces del Lowcountry Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource Spanish Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/772 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/e6996b60ec5ff3d42debdab699582a1c.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=rI0JeRHzvbO6vehkcYAQDoGenJfHyEVQlOlhXO1fBnQIhiAar40w71Job0TzXxCTWNbGlqNoyQ-fOFqt7DUMLpRsQ1h0djVDPyUwmkykLu4YqPgIof%7E1ggcXmXCNcsOHmMd2JxXQn0uxItNoct4dDK3SCm6Vfq7T68V2ncBnZ8Jw5bS6M0-Puvze4YlFfQoB778OnQ11gULo-x16Rw%7Ej8uuWFq8sGsVDiqSSAQGXYU7%7E9yFZh2amfUkkn43R8uNR2mXe5cia33dvuMFGFuEPZXumn-UY23m3D5UvwraMMF595cjEdKDDHcxhFkqd2uhZ-jDBxnc4XCToPXWyVWjvnA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a8f0c4c73540a2c69a52ec24f40249a8 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT: MARY MOULTRIE, WILLIAM SAUNDERS, ROSETTA SIMMONS Interviewee: MARY MOULTRIE, WILLIAM SAUNDERS, ROSETTA SIMMONS Interviewer: Kerry Taylor Interview Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Local 1199-Charleston, 1111 King St., Charleston, SC Length: 88 minutes, 41 seconds Kerry Taylor: You all met Mrs. Mary Moultrie, who was among the key leaders of the strike, who was coming out of MUSC, right? Mary Moultrie: Yes, uh-huh. KT: And I think Rosetta Simmons said she's going to wander back here. MM: Yes. KT: And she was more active from County. MM: County, mm-hm. KT: She worked at County, and then Mr. Saunders, who played a key role in convening the first group, even before the union, or before SCLC came into Charleston, you know, this group of concerned workers was meeting with Mr. Saunders about how to try to address some of the concerns that the workers were facing at the hospitals. And Mr. Saunders and Mrs. Moultrie both had, even before 1969, had long histories of working, you know, for human rights, and in the Charleston movements going back to the late '40s, right, even? But definitely the '50s and '60s, and Mrs. Moultrie, you became active in the '60s? MM: In the '60s, yes. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 2 KT: The other thing I was going to say about Mr. Saunders is then he played a continuing, key role in the strike in terms of organizing community support on the ground. And as you know from the film that we saw and from the readings, the strike became kind of a coalition effort, where you had the leadership and organizers from the union coming out of New York and the northeast, and then you had the people coming over from Atlanta and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, who provided key community support in working especially among the church communities in town. But then you had the workers on the ground, who were out on the picket lines and also trying to really maintain and sustain the strike, and then there were Mr. Saunders's forces, you know, working the streets, and generating broader support in the community. So what I thought we'd do, if maybe each of you could talk a little bit about your involvement in politics and in the struggle for racial equality and economic justice before 1969, just as a way of introducing you. MM: Yeah, well, I had very little to do with politics or anything up until the hospital strike. However, when I was in high school, I worked with Mr. Esau Jenkins, I guess you heard about him. I worked at his restaurant, and I did a lot of traveling around the states with him, making speeches and stuff like that. It was basically voter registration. But I graduated from high school in 1960. I left Charleston for a few years, lived in New York. I returned in '67, and got the job at the medical university hospital, and that's when I became kind of active. I had worked at a hospital in New York, and when I got back here I found that things were completely different, because that was my first time working out, really, in the public sector. Because I worked at Mr. Esau Jenkins's restaurant, where we all were, you know, equal. I worked in New York and it �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 3 was a big difference, although I worked with all nationality of people, when I came back to Charleston, it was a big difference. Then a few months after being at the Medical University hospital, is when the nurses got fired. And that's when I became, you know, active. I went to Mr. Saunders, and told him what had happened at the hospital. These five people had been fired. And the rest was history. KT: How did you know Mr. Saunders? MM: (laughs) How did I know Mr. Saunders? Mr. Saunders has been active in the community for many, many years. (overlap) William Saunders: Everybody was around Esau Jenkins. He was a catalyst for basically everything that was going on. I think one of the questions that, you know, people keep asking are how, you know, somebody just volunteered to get involved. I haven't found anybody yet that wanted to do what we ended up doing. It's not something that you go looking to do; it just gets thrust upon you. Mrs. Moultrie just talked about the five nurses that was fired, and she didn’t mentioned that they was fired wrong. I mean, they wanted them to do something illegal, or the head nurse wanted them to do something illegal and they wouldn't do it. And they got fired. But people got fired for that many times before, but they were the first five that had enough guts to say, well, you know, we'll just walk out, if you're going to fire us. And then got to Mrs. Moultrie, so Mrs. Moultrie got to me, and I got to a guy name of, oh God--. MM: Reginald. WS: Reginald Barrett, who was on the civil rights committee from Washington, to look at the Medical University--Medical College then, it was not a university, it was a Medical College. And they were looking at all kinds of things over there. The Medical �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 4 College had the tenth floor, is where mentally ill people stayed. But when the civil rights group went up there, they were all white people, and they wanted to know, "There ain't no crazy black folk in this city?" (laughs) It caused some serious questions about that, and that made them change that policy also. KT: So the mentally ill were also segregated? WS: Yeah. The black mentally ill were sent to Columbia, on Bull St., but the white mentally ill person had a nice beautiful tenth floor of the Medical College. So those were the kinds of things that, you know, that we got involved with initially. I don't think that Mrs. Moultrie had no interest in them, but to be thrust to, you know, even when y'all came, y'all called her a hero, and she said, "No, I'm no hero." You better take it when they give it to you. MM: (laughs) WS: You caught a lot of hell for calling, be called other names. MM: Oh, yes. WS: And when she came, even when the hospital strike started, they started saying, well, somebody sent her to New York, and then she came back from New York with this agenda to do this thing. And none of this was the truth. And at that time, I was called a communist. I went to Korea, fought a war, got wounded, and things were just so bad, because I found myself fighting for freedom for Koreans, and coming out of Korea, find I'm not free myself. You know, like a fool, damn, how could anybody be that stupid? And so that started me looking at voter registration and all that kind of stuff. And Esau Jenkins ran for the school board on district nine in Charleston, there on Johns Island in 1956. They didn't hold another election from 1956 to 1970. They just stopped having �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 5 elections. And Doctor, to this day, I don't know how you legally stop having regular elections. But they just did. Anything that they wanted to do, they did it. KT: So that standing board just stayed? WS: The standing board just stayed, or if one of them got off, they appointed, the Charleston County delegation appointed another person to that board. It was a seven member board, and they just continued to do that, coming up to that hospital. What we did over there, I organized a group of people on Johns Island called the Concerned Citizens, even at that point, Johns and Wadmalaw Island. We gave them three names of people that we wanted on that board. If they didn't appoint those three people by a certain date, then we had a planned election, we were going to hold an election for school board. And we were going to elect a black school board and we'd have a white school board, just have two school boards. And the percentage of blacks in the school system over there was about seventy-five, eighty percent. So what they did, instead of having that showdown, they appointed Esau Jenkins, who ran for the school board in '56, in 1968, '67, they appointed him to that board, with one of the members that we wanted. And the reason that they did that was very simple. Esau was a part of SCLC, with Dr. King and nonviolence, I was a part of what they called the Black Power movement, Stokely Carmichael was a part of my, my group. Matter of fact, Stokely Carmichael came straight from Cuba to Johns Island in 1967. And that solidified the fact that I was a communist, because he came from a communist country straight to Johns Island. So they knew that Esau, and they appointed Esau so that Esau and I was going to have a fight. Because Esau would say that he was not, he was non-militant, non-violent, and folks were saying that I was violent. And the reason that they probably said that I was violent, because I said that �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 6 I'm not going to allow anybody to hit me. And they had a problem with that Mary? (off topic regarding phone call) WS: And anyway, and so go ahead Mary. And Esau, because I went and I spoke to Esau about that, and I told him he was a lot more militant than I was, because everywhere that I went, I had guys with me with guns. You know, he'd been all kinds of places by himself, just by himself; meeting with white people at ten, eleven o'clock at night, by himself. I always had some folks, some protection around me, I never had that kind of guts. And he understood that, and he got on that school board and did a heck of a job. And we had the smoothest integration at our school over there than any of the places in Charleston County. The black militant groups are the ones that starting organizing the hospital workers. So SCLC, none of those people was involved. They just didn't want to have anything to do with us. And they also told the mayor, Mayor [J. Palmer] Gaillard at that particular point, that the mayor didn't have to worry about it, because none of them, none of the black leaders in Charleston was involved with the hospital workers. And so the mayor, they sort of ignored what was happening around them until it got, really got out of hand. They had, at that point, they had even things like, only four blacks in the whole city of Charleston could go to talk to the mayor, so if you wanted to talk to the mayor or had any problem, you had to go through these blacks. And I told them in a meeting one night, you know, why couldn't everybody have access? They end up with me being a very, very bad person. They had a petition, the black leaders got a petition against me, went to Columbia, to the governor, and asked him not to certify an election that I'd won on Johns Island, Wadmalaw or James Island because I was just a violent and a bad person. I was working at a mattress factory, at that time I'd been working at a mattress �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 7 factory about twelve, fourteen years. Was married, had a bunch of children, and all that, but it still made me a bad person, and the reason I was a bad person, that I would not say that I would just totally let people beat me up. So we got to organizing, and started organizing in Mr. Barrett's house. We asked Mrs. Mary Moultrie to bring a person, and the other five ladies to bring a person, so they brought five. So we ended up with twelve in the beginning. And we asked that twelve to bring one extra the next week, so we had about twenty-four people. And we started organizing, and we went in the DPO hall, which was the tobacco workers' hall, and that's how we got started. KT: So this is still months before SCLC was on the scene, or 1199? WS: This was almost a year before that. We were organizing before Dr. King got killed. When Dr. King was shot in April of '68, we was in the DPO hall organizing at that particular time, and Mr. Isaiah Bennett came to us while we were organizing and said to us that, you know, Dr. King was shot, but he was not dead. And then, you know, we kept on organizing, and then he came back a little bit later and said Dr. King had died. We had a leader, we had a heck of a good group of leaders, but we had one, Otis Robinson, who was a black Muslim leader here. And he was the speaker, I mean, he could motivate people. He was the one that came up with the theme, thing that you know, "I Am Somebody." Because they were talking about the hospital workers being non-professional workers, and he went down to tell them, you are professional, you know? You do all of this stuff for the patient. You are professional, you are somebody. And then somebody took it from there, but he was the one that started that. I just, I got into, he was just asking the question about how long before SCLC and them got involved about a year or more that we did. We started organizing, I think it was November or December of '67. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 8 MM: It was, yeah. It was December '67, when the five nurses were terminated. WS: And at that time, I used to put out a small paper called the Low Country Newsletter that we used to do, an underground newspaper from Johns Island. I don't know if any of you ever heard of the American Friends Service, a Quaker outfit out of Pennsylvania, who's been involved in so many changes. And, you know, they're the ones that started Penn Center in Beaufort and all that. And they had a press in a building in North Carolina almost as big as this room. It was an old, old press. And we bought it, and we put it in a house way out in the woods on Johns Island, and we had a white guy that was working for us, Roger Phenix, and he was a brilliant brilliant guy, and he could make plate for that press out of cardboard. So we would strip it out of our work, everybody that was there was working a full time job, and then we would meet at night. You know, somebody smoked marijuana, somebody drank moonshine, other drank good liquor, and we just spent four, five hours putting a paper out. But by the time, you know, four, five hours passed, we had a paper. KT: So he came down from North Carolina to help set up the press, or you would take it up there? WS: No, they brought the press in pieces, and Roger and them knew how to set it up, we set it up on Johns Island. KT: Because you couldn't go to any legitimate business in town to get your newsletter printed. WS: No. Matter of fact, when we got started with the newsletter, we would run into, talking to a young group of people like this is kind of hard, because there's some ancient stuff. We had what they called a mimeograph machine, back in those days. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 9 [?]: I know what that is. WS: And we had to type what we call a stencil, and so what we would do when we first started the newsletter, we had one of our members working at the Navy yard. So we would type up the stencil, and he would take it to the Navy yard, and he would sneak it in with the other stuff and have it run off, and then bring out 200 copies out of the Navy yard. So that's how we got it out before we got the press. It's sort of getting away from the hospitals, and everybody talks about the hospital strike, which I always have problems with, because it was a hospital workers' organization. We were trying to organize people for the purpose of trying to better themselves. We looked at putting together supermarket, we had folks to register to vote, we had all kinds of high ambition with that union and folks kept talking about the hospital workers' organization, because we were saying to folks that, you know, the doctors got a union, an organization. The nurses got a union, the lawyers got one. Every group in this country that's any profession, got it, got all--the mayors got a group, you know? All the mayors meet and make decisions with lawyers and stuff. The only people that don't have that right is poor people, at the bottom. Hospital workers don't have that right. Right now the sanitation workers don't have that right. That was the thing that we wanted to change, and they would say that the union, that the union is illegal in the state of South Carolina, that the government can't recognize a union. KT: And Ms. Simmons, you were organizing at the County hospital. Were you facing basically the same kinds of issues? Rosetta Simmons: Same, same issues. No, no difference, just a different complex, that's about it but no difference. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 10 KT: And had you had any history of activism before 1968, '69? RS: No, no. KT: No? How about as part of the Charleston movement of '63, with the protests on King Street, anything like that? RS: No, I was just docile and nice. (laughs) But things were, you know, at, where you work, you see those small things, when you looking at and see the big things, there's small things that's growing, you know, erupted into a strike like at the university. KT: Others should jump in, too, with questions. RS: I'm Rosetta Simmons, from Charleston Memorial Hospital. It was Charleston County Hospital then, it's Charleston Memorial Hospital now. WS: It's totally dead now. (overlap) RS: It's been changed to Kindred Long Term from a Medical University, use the long term patients, who need the nursing skill, and be sent to a nursing home, so they use that facilities for those long-term patients who are on ventilators and stuff like that. Female voice: How long was it after y'all walked out, before you got your jobs back, before you were reinstated? MM: It was a hundred days, we were out, like, a hundred days. Female voice: But now you walked out in December. Was that the five quit? MM: No, we didn't look at it then. (overlap) Female voice: Oh, I was thinking you walked out when you went to Mr. Saunders. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 11 WS: No, no, that was a different group of people. MM: Yeah, that group started the ball rolling. After we went to Mr. Saunders, and we got together with the five people, and they had grievances. So we found out that everybody had a grievance, and that's where we got that initial group back. Mr. Saunders and Reginald Barrett, and them from Department of Health, Education and Welfare, after they got those five back together, we continued meeting. And we found out that that was not just an isolated case, that was widespread, throughout the hospital. And there were all kinds of grievances that people had. You know, it was not just being fired by students, but it was a lot of discrimination, was a lot of heavy workload, was nurses, they're referring to blacks as monkey grunts, and all sorts of things that they had to either tolerate it or you're fired. But we didn't have no means of grieving, you know, if you had a grievance, you know, that was your business. You had no place to take it. WS: They didn't even have job descriptions. No, they had no job, you know, and you raise a question for Mrs. Moultrie when they walked out. They didn't walk out, they got fired. Those people that, those ten, and Mrs. Moultrie, got fired. MM: Yeah, twelve, twelve of us got fired. WS: And we were doing something with the organizing the whole time, telling everybody that an injury to one was an injury to all. An injury to one was an injury to all. So then they fired those twelve, that really put us in a spot. Because we were not prepared to strike. And the SCLC was here, and even the union was, but we were not prepared to strike. And the hospital, with the political wing, had hired a labor lawyer from Greenville. They decided if they fired those twelve, which were the leaders, and then even if they strike, they would get everybody back except for the people that they didn't want back. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 12 That was the game plan. And they did, so they fired those, and they were assured that within, you know, ten or twelve days, everything was going to be back to normal. But again, we also had our own plans, and Doctor referred to it a little bit because we organized the community. And we had people out there, and we also made sure that everybody that was working there, because they tried to, they had buses, to try to carry a busload of people into the hospital, so they can have their labor there, and because we sort of followed that up a good bit. We knew where the people lived, you know, how to talk to their families, and those kind of stuff. And we had some pretty rough fellows and women working with us, that nobody even knew who they were. Course, then you got that look on your face, is anything turning, is anything turning over there? I like to watch [Everybody Loves] Raymond, there's nothing going on up here. Joi Mayo: That was, I know in the article we read, they talked about how, I don't know if some, one of the people involved is telling them that, you know, it was okay to have, if you have like a record or something, like, you should get involved any way you can. And it was almost like, almost like guerilla tactics. Like, anyway you can, kind of get at the people. You know what I mean? WS: Yeah, you're not being as blunt as you could be here. Yeah, you know, we were organized to do whatever was necessary to do that, and we had the FBI and folk come, in fact, they came to me and, you know, talked about how to avoid violence and all of that stuff, and, you know, and I told them that we in Charleston was not going to throw bricks at tanks, like folk did all over the country, that we were prepared for war. So you're saying exactly what it is. And of course, the beautiful thing about this is Mrs. Moultrie, or Ms. Simmons, they knew nothing about those. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 13 (off-topic) WS: And one of the things, that the questions that you, Mrs. Moultrie or Ms. Simmons, or none of the hospital workers knew anything about this group of people, that the group of people that we had organized worked independently. So there, and we believed since early that if you didn't know something, you can't tell nobody. So it was not necessary for everybody to know. I mean, we used to have meetings with that group, we would have it in a, in a joint or something, right up near the jukebox, so we could talk there and, you know, even if the FBI recorded it, they couldn't, you can't do that these days, because they've got machines now that don't care what, how you do it, they can decipher what went on. But at that time, they didn't have those kind of, type of stuff out. So the people that met and did the work like Ms. Simmons, that had walked the street during the day and did the picketing, and during the night when there were curfews, there was other folk that was out there. When Reverend [Ralph D.] Abernathy was about to go to jail, you know, we had a group of those people went to jail. These guys that we had working with us been in jail many times before, and when they went in jail, they took over the jail. You know, they became trustees, they went in the kitchen, and we wanted to make sure that Abernathy and them had protection when they went to jail. And none of that stuff had ever been talked about in that sense. Female voice: So you're quoted as saying, every time that the power that be got rid of the person that they thought was bad, the next one was worse. WS: Mm-hm. Female voice: And what did you, how did they get rid of? WS: Either they would have them arrested, but sometimes they would buy them, �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 14 buy them off. But they had a methodology of getting rid of the leader. And what we've been trying to do, and still have not been totally successful is to establish leadership instead of a leader, because you can always get rid of a leader, but if you have leadership, getting rid of one person you haven't done any good. And we sort of taught them a lesson, with even the SNCC with Stokely Carmichael. Because they wanted to get rid of Stokely Carmichael, and they got H. Rap Brown who was totally crazy. I mean, (laughs) they would prefer Stokely than have Rap. So it's that kind of process. Female voice: So how did you stick around? WS: I don't understand the question. Female voice: (laughs) Well, I mean, if you, they didn't buy you off or get rid of you. You're still here, and how is it that you prevailed? WS: Because most of the people that was involved in these things normally was either from someplace else or they were students. I was from here, I was in the church, had a family, worked in a factory, you know? And also was able to educate my bosses about what I was doing, everything I did, they knew. I used to get arrested, almost on a weekly basis for a while. And I started borrowing the truck from the mattress factory to go home at nights, so they wouldn't know what I was driving, because they would stop me. I'd been put in jail for muffler, for lights, for inspection stickers, for not dimming my lights, for brakes, those kind of stuff. And that's what, that's how they do. Female voice: Just wear you down. WS: Yeah, that's, that's how they do it. And, you know, and folk give up, doing that. We met during the time when the strike was going on, the head person here was a guy and SLED was, Pete Strom and he came to meet with me, and he wanted to ask me, �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 15 called me at the mattress factory, asked me would I meet with him, and I told, "Well, you know, you're the head man. If you say you got to meet, I'll come meet you." He wanted to meet up in the north area, and I worked, the mattress factory was on 28 Anson Street. We're going to meet at five o'clock that afternoon. I could, when I left Anson Street, I could see cops lined up everywhere, all the way up to North Charleston where we were going to meet. And I talked to a lot of young people, even at the James Island High School the other night, other day. When you're young, you think you're so smart, you know? And you, you only get stupid as you get older, but young folk got so much sense. And I went up there to meet the chief and I got to the car where I saw that they had the cops all over the place in the corner of the parking lot. Then I got out my car, I opened the trunk, and I just went into the trunk. Now, that doesn't make no sense at all. And I just stood there. And all the cops, they didn't know what the hell, was I going to come out of there with a gun, or what I, what I was going to do. And, you know, that was just a dumb thing to do. But that's what I did, and I, then I walked around and I closed the trunk, and everybody breathed a sigh of relief. (laughs) KT: Were you deliberately taunting them? WS: Huh, yeah. (everyone laughs) Yeah, you know, again, even with Mrs. Moultrie and Simmons, some of them folk that were, if you weren't willing to die with that thing, you couldn't do it. You had to be willing to give up all of it, and that's how some folk was so much at peace with themselves, because some of us, two, three of us that were there, didn't expect to live through that. So, you know, they had spies in that meeting that we had, they had Clifford Smith, you remember Clifford Smith, who was the IRS's black agent, and he was the informant in the group working with us. And we �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 16 had really caught him spying and doing some stuff, and we had a trial for him, some of them talking about we tried him, and found him guilty. And scared the hell out of him, and I've never seen anybody cry, where water just come out their eyes and don't touch nothing, just roll, and just keep coming down. And, you know, he just figured we were going to do something to him, because he lived on Spring Street. And he went, and of course he got SLED, and SLED then took him and his family out of town, and some of his fraternity brothers went around there that night and got beat up at his house, because they had cops in the house. They thought we were going to come by. But, you know, we could wait, for we had no rush to do anything, we just wanted to scare him. But my point is, he was in the car with chief Strom when I met with him, and they had proof that there was some folk that wanted to kill me, and that they wanted to make sure that they could provide some protection for me. And I told him, "You know, y'all didn't protect King, y'all didn't protect Kennedy, and the hell I'll allow you to protect me. I got my own crew for protection." And we knew the people, Mary and I talked to them, but they were the union, white union folk in Mt. Pleasant that had the plan against what we were doing, and they had some plans against me, but we were prepared to deal with that. And I would not accept any protection from them. Chief Strom and I got to be kind of friendly after that. We met a couple times after that, and I told him about being arrested so much. And he gave me a card and said that, you know, "Anytime anybody arrests you, you just use this card and call this number." And I refused to take the card, because there was so many of us were getting arrested. And that was another way of how they got rid of leaders, because if I had used that card and called, and said they're going to stop people from arresting me, then they would use that, that I was involved somehow with law �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 17 enforcement, that I was an informant or something. So I refused to accept that. Anyway Mrs. Moultrie got to go in a few minutes. Christina Shedlock: When the hospital was segregated, did you perform different duties than, like, a white nurse's aide? Did you work with white patients, or could you only work with--? MM: During that time we had very few white nurse's aides, but the few that were there didn't get the heavy workloads that we got. And it was my understanding that they were paid differently. Nothing I could prove, you know, but I was told that they were making more than the dollar thirty an hour that we were making. And they certainly didn't work as hard as we did, so it was a difference. When we came out on strike, we had two nursing assistants that had been up and down with us all the time we were organizing, and they were given jobs at the VA Hospital that they didn't apply for, just to get them out of our group. Female voice: Did y'all feel like your lives were threatened with what you were doing? MM: Oh, we were, yeah, we were threatened, you know? Female voice: Is that right? Wow. MM: Phone calls, letters, you know. But I guess I was crazy at that time, because it didn't phase me. I knew what I had to do and I just did it. Female voice: I know in the article you talked about how some of the Charleston blacks didn't really support the strike, and I don't know, one of the quotes is like Dr. Thomason, or something, is there a reason why these people didn't support the strike? MM: Well, at first, a lot of the blacks were reluctant about what we were doing. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 18 Some of them thought that it was unnecessary, that we didn't need to be out on strike, and the ones who could go back to work should go back to work, and those of us who they refused to take back should get jobs elsewhere. But as we got support from different places, and people started getting on board, we basically got everybody on our side, after they saw exactly what was going on, the fact that we weren't giving up. And we were predominantly women with lots of children. We had some women out there that had about ten children, and it was somebody's family, somebody's wife, you know? They’re in somebody's church, so they got on board like that. And Mr. Saunders, I didn't say we were all women, now. WS: No, but y'all go there sometimes. MM: Yeah. (laughs) I didn't go there. WS: We had a real divide on who there were, and it got to, because that's, again, how people divide you. The hospital workers was about hospital workers. It was not about women, it was not about men, it was about the workers. But at some point, somebody started writing, "These, all of these women got together and did all of this good stuff." And that was not, that was not the truth. There was a lot of, the orderlies and cleanup folk, and everybody, all of these folk was involved. But the division came later on. The other thing that you raise a question about, the people coming on board, we began to get so much support from other places, from Washington, from New York, from Detroit. I mean, these folks had to come on board at that particular point, because folk, and then we were doing them the same way like George Bush tried to do with the American people. We were saying that if you're not with us then you're against us, you know? And that also continued to bring people on. At a point, when they saw it was a �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 19 possibility that it's going to change, a lot of them came on board. And, you know, we start this thing saying that the State of South Carolina was saying that it did not come under Federal guidelines to pay minimum wage. They didn't have to pay minimum wage. There was an article in yesterday's paper where our state government just made a statement again that the House and Senate, that they are going to resist any Federal laws that come in the stimulus package or anything. They're not going to accept any, those stuff that unconstitutional, the same thing they did in 1860, the same thing that they did during 1968-69, when they refused to pay minimum wage to the workers. This is a hell of a state. And nothing has changed in the state of South Carolina. It's the same thing that they've been doing, doing it over and and over and over again. Nothing has ever changed in South Carolina because South Carolina thought it was a good thing to do for its people. Everything in South Carolina that ever changes has been because Federal government or somebody raised enough hell, or they had to kill enough people to make the change, whether it was at South Carolina State College or wherever. That's, that's where South Carolina was working, and it's not about change at all. And that's one of the things that I keep saying over and over to younger people, that y'all are going to have the problem, because this kind of thing is not going to go away. All of this stuff that Mrs. Moultrie and them fought for and did, and went about, basically, the hospital's basically back to the same. The suffering over there is just as bad now or worse than it was then, and the people over there that's working, the blacks that working there are coward, totally. They want somebody to go over there, or come to Mrs. Moultrie, "Go over there and beat them up for us," because of their mistreatments. And, you know, if you get mistreated, you'll have to stand up, yourself. It has to start with you. There ain't going to be no more Martin �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 20 Luther King. I wouldn't allow nobody to be a Martin Luther King. I mean, the kind of suffering that Dr. King and people that did that stuff went through, there's no reason for it, for people to have to suffer that way, when people could collectively do what's necessary for themselves. Female voice: What kind of complaints are y'all getting about how they're running things over there right now? WS: Mrs. Moultrie? MM: They're just back to where we were, when we were in the hospital. People still getting fired, they still haven't got a voice. There's no grievance procedure, but it's not working. You know, if a person is fired, they come back with a lot of trumped up charges, and they're still fired. So they've still got the heavy workload, some of the nurse's assistants. What are they called now, they're not called nurse’s assistants. Yeah, but anyway, they've got heavy workloads, and the salary has increased, but it always can be better. I'm not saying that they're making any money over there because they're not. And it's just a mess over there. WS: And they all seem to be--. MM: They're still, they're being disrespected. WS: And the other thing that they created was a situation where they can have permanent temporary workers. I mean, they're really abusing people through that. Folk got a job working every day, three, four years as a temporary employee, you know? And, and they're not subject to any benefits, they can get fired, they don't have any kind of grievance or anything. And that, again, is South Carolina. That's not the Medical University. They're doing that all over South Carolina. Any way that they can hurt �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 21 workers, South Carolina does it. We've got people over there that have been over there twenty-five years that came to Mrs. Moultrie to complain the other day, that they're going to downsize the department, and they're going to get rid of the one that's been there twenty-five years and keep the one that's been there five years. The reason for that, the one at twenty-five years is making more money, got all these benefits up to the time that you might get sick, so you don't have to pay nothing for this worker, you just let them go. So we're getting those kind of complaints, they're coming through here now. But nobody, none of these groups are willing to do anything collectively. They want somebody to come over and--. MM: And there's a lot unfair, one young lady told me that when you get a job, going through orientation, you're told if you join a union, you talk to anybody at the union place or any union activities, you're automatically terminated. Female voice: Isn't that illegal? MM: I thought, think it's illegal. WS: There's nothing illegal in South Carolina. (laughs) MM: You know, I just try to tell them, look, you know, you ain't got no chains on you, so you're free. And I could see if you're doing union activities when you should be working, but when you're off your job, you're free to do whatever. But they're so afraid, a lot of people ask me, why this fear? And the only difference I could see at this point, that the young people have invested in so much. A lot of them got so many credit cards that they're maxed out. They've got cards that they really can't afford, and it's a lot of things that they're so afraid of losing. And it's just a mess. So they have to stay in and take the abuse. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 22 WS: Well, we would even say to some of them, if you stand up, we'll back you. But they wouldn't even do that. Because we could support anybody that's been mistreated over there. There's enough organizations, enough things around to make that happen. But their fear is so heavy, all they want to do is come, secretly give Mrs. Moultrie a piece of paper, and give her the background of what went on and so, you know, get Batman or somebody to go over there and straighten it out. KT: I was just wondering, how were you able to balance out with all these, the influx of organizers from the union, from SCLC, other outsiders coming in, how are you able to balance all of the competing agendas within the context of the organizing struggle? Was that challenging? MM: You mean, during the hospital strike? KT: During the strike. MM: Yeah, no. (laughs) KT: No, you felt people were mostly on the same page? MM: Not, huh? There was so much that I didn't even see. You know I didn't even entertain who was in charge or what. The only thing I knew that I had lost my job, and I was trying to do what I needed to do to get my job back. So, in terms of the structure of the union, and who was who and what was what, at that point, I wasn't there with that. So I walked the picket line, I did a lot of traveling, you know, soliciting support for the strike. I didn't sit in an office behind a desk, trying to, you know. (overlap) Yeah, excuse me, when I went on strike, I had some shoes, but when the strike was over, there was a hole in the bottom of my shoes, you know? So that's the kind of things I did. RS: And you know, we knew what we had to do as the workers, you know? We �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 23 had to be out there and make ourselves seen, you know? Had to be just there, visible, on the line. Because we had picket lines that was, actually, we didn't have picket lines at twelve midnight, well, we did at twelve midnight, but we didn't have at six o'clock in the morning. It would start again, it would start all over again. And we had to organize those picket lines, to keep somebody always there, visible. WS: But, you know, there were that division, that you raise a question about. The thing that we did, to make sure that the workers were shielded from those kinds of thing that was going on, there were, we had some real difference of opinion with SCLC and some stuff. We had difference of opinion with the union in a lot of stuff, and we was able to work through some of those, some we were not able to work through. But the end results were more important than some of those things. But we saw a lot of things at that time that could've been handled better, and we could not resolve those things. But then again, the workers knew nothing about those kind of stuff. They're talking about the twelve, six o'clock, and of course the curfew kicked in at six or seven, so, but we had people meeting with folk. I used to meet with the vice president of the hospital at ten o'clock or eleven o'clock at night, whatever. Mr. Huff used to be the vice president of the hospital. We would talk about the difference between what we were trying to do and what his trustee board. We were able to eventually work out where the trustees would meet with Mrs. Moultrie and then a group of people up in Moncks Corner. And that was something that brought some semblance of change and respect to that process. But that was a long time, that was about seventy, eighty days before that meeting occurred. KT: Yeah, but that meeting was a breakthrough. WS: It was. But again, it just really took a lot, and what we did is that nobody �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 24 from SCLC or the union was at that meeting, but I was there. But, you know, Mrs. Moultrie and them had their orders. They had ten, I think ten things that they wanted on the agenda. And what they did at that point, the trustees had reached, I think eight, eight of them. Now, there's two of them that they, anything they got to that they didn't agree with, I wouldn't let them argue about it, just move on to what you agree with. And then there were two of them that they couldn't agree with, and we were supposed to meet the next week or something, down at the municipal auditorium and resolve those two, and of course the president of the hospital took a different turn, and he started talking about the professionals and the nurses, and the doctors is going to walk off if those twelve people are brought back to the hospital. That was his thing. And that's how the Nixon cabinet got involved in that, at that particular point, because they wanted, if the hospitals were on strike and hurting the whole, his whole administration was hurting everybody, and he wanted it resolved, and that's how it sort of got resolved, when they told him to cut off the money from HEW to the hospital. There was a lot of stuff that was going on that has not ever been written about or talked about. KT: The background, the kind of back-channel negotiations? WS: Yeah, you know, who was doing what, that way, who had their own agenda. And the governor came to me in, this was in '69 when this thing happened. Governor McNair came to me, I think it was about '98, 1998 and apologized to me for stuff that went on, and thanked me for that stuff didn't go as bad as it could. Because one of the things that didn't happen, nobody got killed, nobody got shot. And that was a very unusual thing. We had a chief of police here that was brand new, Chief Conroy had just came. He was a professional guy, a Marine, and he told folks nobody would shoot a gun �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 25 until he ordered it. He locked me up and all that good stuff, but he, he was pretty fair. Mrs. Moultrie? MM: No, that's about it. You had a few more minutes. Female voice: I had a quick question. You mentioned that a lot of the workers, female workers had children and lots of children. And how did children play a role? We saw in the video that there were some children involved. MM: Yes, a lot of the workers brought their children to the union hall, because we had people there that cooked, you know, every day, and they would just bring the whole, you know, their whole family of children there, and they would eat, and they did games, and you know, we did activity things there for them. And we also had them out on the picket line, picket line. We led a group of children, I think Jack Bradford. RS: That picture's on the wall up front, too. MM: And some people marched, even in the marches, and kids in the stroller and stuff. So the kids were visible. WS: You know, there's a lot of young people that got involved in that strike. I mean, there was a lot of [school] bus drivers, at that time, students would drive a bus. A lot of the bus drivers brought their bus downtown and just parked it and joined that strike. You can imagine having forty, fifty buses. (laughs) You know, so that there was so many young high school students got involved, and directly involved in that strike. It was the only thing except for Hurricane Hugo that I saw that brought the community together. I mean, we had the beauty shops doing people's hair for free, and barber shops cutting for free. The ministers came together, white and black ministers that had never got together. The Catholic priests did so much, I mean, it stood up a lot, and there were some sisters �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 26 and stuff. So, you know, there was a lot of good things came out of that, with people that had never worked together before. We understood, some of us that did some of the planning, we understood that the thing that drives everything, that especially drives Charleston, is the economics. And when you close down Charleston from April to July, billions of dollars. When you've got all these hotels and fancy restaurants, nobody, totally empty. I mean, that, that was something. You know, there was a Greek guy that had a store right on the corner of Calhoun and St. Philip Street. MM: Kelly? WS: Yeah, he put a sign in his window, said, "Kelly ain't mad at nobody." (laughs) And a lot of the merchants did that, and then nothing happened to them, because they just said, we're not involved in what's going on. But it really, brought some respect to people that never had respect before. I don't know that the folks that was in charge would never believe that poor people could stop the city of Charleston, you know? One of the things that they sort of promised they're not going, it'll never happen again, because they're going to make sure that they would work with people and find out stuff in advance, but that's not happening. It's going back the same way, and they just believe that. And, you know, to me, again, although it just went down that way, this state is still also into a class society. There's a lot of things, there are a lot of poor, we found there was even some of the poor whites who was working in the hospital, and they had all kinds of special favors, special restrooms and lounges and all that stuff. But we did some studies later on, they weren't making no money. They wasn't making the money, but they had this special privilege over blacks, so that divide was very important. And you can make the Black Muslim and the Ku Klux Klan fight, the people in charge wins. You �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 27 know, so I've always thought about the Klan, basically, I used to attend Klan rallies during that hospital strike, they used to have Klan rallies on Johns Island and Beaufort. I never was afraid of the Klan. They had [the power to] kill somebody, but they don't have nothing to do with schools, they don't have nothing, no power in health, they don't have no power over employment, over nothing, except for a little bit of violence. My enemy's been the government, and that general assembly that has the power to pass laws, and decide where I go to school, what I do and how I do it. And that's what got Dr. King killed. Because he was fixing to do that Poor People's March on Washington. He was bringing all poor people together, talking about what's going on with poor people, and that is one of the things that got him killed. The FBI got involved, and that just wiped him out. Mrs. Moultrie, you said you had another meeting, so you're fixing to go? MM: Yeah, if--. KT: Well, we'll save you pizza, and we'll say goodbye before we head out. MM: Yeah, okay. (laughs) KT: Because you're going to be in the front room. (off-topic) Female voice: What was the Klan's response to the strike? WS: I don't know they had a problem with the strike. I used to attend Klan rallies-. Female voice: That's amazing that you did that. WS: Yeah. Stupid. (laughs) You know, you're twenty, twenty-five, you're just so brilliant, you know? You get to be fifty, sixty, realize you know very little, and you learn how to shut up. But, you know, the Klan, [we] used to go to the rallies. They would have, �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 28 you know, they all, "Got the niggers on the TV, and the Jews are running all this, and we've got to shut them down!" They don't even have shoes. Kids ain't got nothing. Just poor leadership, and they've got a flag and Christianity, you know? And just, it's, anytime, right now, we're doing an organizing that's getting a little bit away from, but it's still the same thing. But on Johns Island right now, that I did on Johns Island, we're trying to block a road being built across Johns Island that's, and what I did is I was able to get the guy that I am working with, his great, his grandfather, I used to work on that farm. I used to make a dollar a day on the farm, and what I am saying to them the last two years, we've got the same problem. The original people of Johns Island, white and black, got the same problem with the mayor coming in and annexing all of this stuff, and they're going to, right now, they got seventeen million dollars or something to do the airport on Johns Island. My church sits right there, been there since 1869, and that airport's getting closer and closer to the church, you know? And eventually, the church is going to be gone. So those are the kind of, and I've got a couple of the guys that was in the Klan that I knew, are part of this organization that I got, trying to stop some stuff, you know, Maybank Highway from being widened and some of this stuff, you know? Because we've got the same problem. We got the same enemy. And what I don't allow us to do, we don't talk about religion, and we don't talk about politics. We just talk about the issue. And if you know a politician that's interested in the issue, then you can raise that person's name. But they don't get involved in religion and politics, because that is a divider. And we don't use those, those divider, then, then you don't have no problem. But this hospital thing started a lot of things, and the thing that most people don't realize, and I'm meeting with some folks today, some black people today, and they're talking about how, how we're going �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 29 back, and how we're losing so much stuff. And I was trying to make sure that they understood the fact that when you learn something, your enemy also learns something. And none of us have given our enemy credit. They've got the best collection methodology now, getting information. They've got the best methodology of dividing people. I mean, there's so many things that are happening right now, that they can prevent folk from getting together, and it's just that simple. We meet here with the sanitation workers on Friday, and the people that are in charge of the sanitation department drive up and down the highway or street out there, to make sure they know who's here. And then what happens is they go back and talk to one or two of them, and then the other one is afraid of these two that they saw talking to the foreman, because they say they're being an informant. So they start that fear and that division within the people that really need help. I mean, folk are, you can tell, folk are getting hurt, I mean, or being mistreated, the same as the hospital workers. And we had a sanitation strike the same way, after that hospital strike. And things supposed to have changed that time. And what they did, and this has proved what I'm saying, what they did, they got all of the white leadership of the sanitation department, which folks saw as the enemy, and they put in black leaders. The blacks are now worse, treating blacks worse than the white leaders did. It's the system. It's not the color, it's the system. And, you know, and these guys, the black guys are really being just brutal on the people working. And right now it's almost a third of the people that work at the sanitation department are women. Women are driving these trucks and doing the collections and stuff. Got the same, like Mrs. Moultrie was just talking about, got three or four children they bring sometimes, they've got to bring the children here to the meeting. And as the one, you know, they would say that you have to, they're going to �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 30 fire her if she don't get to work on, right on time at six o'clock, she takes a seven year old child and leaves it in front of a school with nobody at the school, so she can get to work. And the supervisor, black supervisor is looking for an excuse to get rid of her, because she would speak up. So things have not changed, things have not gotten better. They've got more sophisticated, and the methodology of doing it has gotten different, but the suffering is still the same. And they got people working in the sanitation department, saying, like they did at the Medical College, that they have people working there that have been in trouble before, or that the education level is pretty low. And the fear of losing that job and can't get another one, and now the sanitation department hasn't talked about this, but they're doing the same thing like the Medical College now, they've got people on permanent, permanent temporary. So they've got, they brought folk in that they don't have to give them anything, and they can't really be a problem with this kind of organization. KT: They're doing that at sanitation as well now? WS: Right, right now. Which as I speak. Female voice: They're doing that at a lot of places. WS: Yeah. Male voice: Decreased benefits. KT: Do you, you know, I'd imagine that, you know, among your coworkers, that the strike was hard on family relationships. I mean, did you have, you know, friends whose families were stressed by, you know, a hundred days of being out on strike, and the, the picketing, the arrests? What was the personal toll that the strikers suffered? RS: You know, there was some, there was stress. Stress just knowing that you �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 31 don't have a job. Number one. But they know that they were out there because of the conditions that they were suffering while they were working. So the stress, then, outweighed the, what they had to do, in other words. They knew that they had to be there because of better treatment for themselves, and respect for one person. And that was my main goal, dignity and respect. You do that, as a human being. And those were my, my little petty things, they're not petty, little things that I had, for me, to think about. You know, if you are not treated as a human being, you're treated like an animal. So you needed to, I mean, they needed to know, management needed to know that we are human beings, and we ought to be treated with dignity and respect. Money will come later, but just those things, being treated as human beings and being treated with dignity and with respect. And I think, when I think about all of what we went through, we got some respect, in a sense. Monies, a few pennies came. But it was not overall the big thing. The big thing, as far as I was concerned, is that we were being treated as a human being, and before that, we weren't. You know, you were told to do so you did it, not in a comfortable way, but as if you're just another thing, in other words, and this is why my, this was my, my baby, being treated as a human being with dignity and with respect. WS: But, you know, and something did come out of that. The Human Affairs Commission grew out of that, and that's a grievance mechanism for everybody that worked for the State of South Carolina. Folk are not utilizing it this year, but it's there. That was set up after they ended the strike, that was given. And then, to go back to your question, Dr. Kerry, there was some family, we had some broken homes that came out of that strike. We had some unwanted pregnancies came out of that strike. A lot of things happened, but that's the toll that comes. We have a few people, some SCLC or the union �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 32 workers tell them, you don't need to be here, you need to be in New York someplace. So they hired up and left, and suffered. But, you know, it was minimal, based on the fact that we had good people involved, that we also could counsel with some of the folk that had had problems. But there were problems. Lisa Wu: Y'all were in a lot of danger. Did your family members, wife or husband, ever kind of wear you down, try to like, don't go out tonight and things like that? WS: You know some of that occurred with some folk. My wife was working at the cigar factory at that time, and she was working at night. So I used to have, we would have somebody to drive behind her going to work, and stuff like that. Because there was a lot of those kinds of threats, and things like that. But again, we had people that were strong enough, and when the ministers really got involved, and the black community is a very religious community, we had the kind of leadership and ministry at that time that is good, and then folks could stand up, but there was a lot of threats, you know, and promises. And as a matter of fact, what we used to do, we would threaten people back. So, and you know, and it's funny, but it worked. Because a lot of people that threaten people really don't worry about themselves. But if you make them begin to worry about themselves and their family, it changes a lot of things. (off-topic) WS: We made some promises. You know, if something happened to so-and-so. I mean, the guy that said that, you know, if anything happened to Bill Saunders, he would come after him. Ivy Farr: (overlap) It seems like that maybe brought the community together too, �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 33 you were saying if a leader went to jail, there would be other people who went to jail with him and made sure that things were--. WS: You know, when I went to jail with the hospital strike workers, I just really knew, everybody was depending on me, I was telling a group the other night. And they put us in a cell, right at dark, and the cell was kinda underground with no windows, no nothing. And scared the hell out of me. I, normally I don't get scared that way, but I was, claustrophobia and stuff sat in on me, and I just, I'm a person that talks all the time. But I had nothing to say, but there were guys that we had involved with the workers, that these were all workers at the hospital. And one of them started telling jokes, the other one started singing, and I mean, then they started doing this, and it just really got, I didn't have to say anything. But they took it over that this was joking, singing beautiful songs and stuff. And what they did, they took us out of that dark cell and moved us into, up into a light, almost Biblical in a light up cell, but these guys continued to sing until three o'clock in the morning, when folk came and took us out of underground in that cell. And one of the things that's so religious about, if you've got any religion at all, there is a purpose for all of us. All of us got a talent. And if we stick around, there will come a time when you use that talent. Some of the guys that did that singing and talking, telling jokes in that jail was with us for about a year and half, and never said anything. They were just always there. But at that point, right time, when it was time for them to do something, they did. And so that, that's a lot of history. Mrs. Moultrie, you know, she went through a lot. She would not even attempt to go back through what she went through, but she went through more than anybody with that strike. And a lot of stuff that, it was so bad, she just had to block out a lot of stuff that started coming back to her in the last six months or so, �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 34 because she went through a lot. And then they had her traveling all over the country, speaking other places while this thing was going. But, you know, we had a lady that assisted, Miss Alston. RS: Martha? WS: Not Martha, not Martha. RS: Eva? WS: Eva Alston, she was another person that never said anything. But she was Mrs. Moultrie's bodyguard, she didn't, Moultrie didn't know that. (everyone laughs) She was a mean lady, too. I mean, she--. RS: She was. I was, I was hospitalized out there, because I lost my baby during the strike, and she came in Medical University, on Eight West, with two armored guards to make sure that I was all right. I mean, she, she scared me. I leaped out of the bed when I heard her voice. I said, "Oh my God!" She said, "I just wanted to know that you," I said, "I'm all right, I'm okay. Okay. Just, you know, you take it easy." Because she was about to take them down. I mean, she was equipped to take them down. WS: She used to have (laughs), she used, she would have a bottle of battery acid in her pocket, and she would--. (laughs) KT: She was ready to go. WS: Yes, sir, this sister was bad. She was not a speaker, she was not anybody like that, but she loved Mrs. Moultrie and Ms. Simmons and those folks, and she would do anything, she would die for any one of them. And she was, she was good, I mean. And we had so many folk in that strike that was that way. And that's one of the things that really bothers me when we talked about it, because none of those folk get any recognition �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 35 at all, none of them. None of the folk that did the really heavy lifting behind the scenes get any recognition at all. (off-topic) (food is served) KT: How long was it, because it was several weeks after the strike until you got your job back? (overlap) RS: Well, Medical went back in June. (off-topic) RS: We went back in July, county workers went back in July. (off-topic) RS: I didn't, I didn't go back until November. (overlap) (off-topic) Joi Mayo: What do your kids say about when you were involved? Do they really know what was going on? How old were they? WS: Some of our kids knew, you know, what was going, they were old enough to know what was going on, and stuff like that. My, one of my daughters right now, she teaches at James Island High School, she went to the College of Charleston, and the professor there used to just mistreat her, just awful, I mean. My office was on Morris Street, and she used to walk from the College of Charleston to tell me about it, just crying. And they would tell her, you know, "Just let your father teach you," or, "Let your father do what needs to be done." That, there's a lot of cruel stuff that went on, a lot of cruel stuff went on at The Citadel. I mean, just telling them the other day, those first blacks that went to The Citadel. I used to run a business on John’s Island called the Progressive Club, and they would come out there to stuff that we would have, black �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 36 record artists and stuff. And those guys would come and try to tear down the gas tank, or kick stuff, or bother people. Lisa Wu: You mean the Cadets? WS: Yeah. It was just the frustration, the suffering at The Citadel. They would come out and take it out on, on blacks and folk in the community rather than fight the enemies that were within The Citadel itself. Those guys caught some hell, it was really something. And one of them, I think, ended up committing suicide. That was real bad. Christina Rae Shedlock: In the article, they were talking about damage to property and firebombs. Was that people attacking the strikers' homes? It never really said. Were your homes damaged, were you? WS: No, no, and there were very few firebombs and stuff happened. Some stuff happened to some businesses, but some of it was being done by the former chief of police, I don't know if that's a part of what y'all got there. But what he did, he had a group of people from a detective agency, and they were going around robbing places, and having it blamed on the hospital workers and people doing with the hospital. They did a father and son store. You remember, Ms. Simmons, that father and son store? RS: Next to Edwards? WS: Uh-huh, yeah. Chief and them, they found that they locked some of them, Chief Conroy caught some of them and put them in jail for that. But they were blaming all of the stuff on the hospital workers, and the hospital workers told them they had nothing to do with it. But he was really a crooked guy. KT: That was the chief prior to Conroy? WS: Right. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 37 KT: So what happened? I mean, within a year, 1199 was virtually gone, right? After about a year? Was it just a matter of them pulling out, not providing sufficient resources? Where did all of this energy go in 1970, 1971? RS: Well, like I said, I went back to work, 1969, November 10, 1969. The workers from Charleston Memorial Hospital at that time went back to work on July 18, but they made it a point that I was not going to be rehired at Charleston Memorial Hospital. KT: So you were one of the last hired back. RS: I was one of the last hired back, and if it wasn't for my manager at that particular time, who gave me information that was coming in, because it, my job, my job title, there was no opening for me at that time. She kept me up to date. She was white, she was a white RN from Wadmalaw Island, as a matter of fact, is where she stayed. And I found out that they were hiring, because I'm an LPN, hiring LPNs back. And I called Mr. Black, who was the county manager at that time, that had hired us as LPNs back in the operating room, and that I needed my job back. So he told me I should call Mr. Kim, who was the hospital administrator at the time. And he said yes, there was an LPN hired in the OR, and you've got to find some other job opening. So that was a Friday, I went back to work that Monday, November 10th. It wasn't easy. It was not easy, but I made up my mind that I was going to do my work from A through Z, and we had it catalogued. So I didn't have any problems. I was working three shifts in one week, which was not hospital policy. I worked two, and I called in the third. And I decided one day, I said, you know what, they're trying, I know they're trying to get rid of me, so what I'm going to do is, the three shifts that they had assigned me, I worked it. And they quit, they quit assigning me �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 38 three shifts. From then I was, I stayed there. I did, you know I did my job, so they couldn't, I went to work on time, I punched out on time. I went when I was supposed to tour, and I did my job. So they didn't, didn't have any more tactics that they were, had planned for me, because I knew that they were trying to get rid of me, or trying to make me make a mistake, so that they could fire me. Female voice: And by three shifts, do you mean, like, they made you--? RS: Seven to three one day, three to eleven, and the next day, and the next day would be eleven to seven. And that's against hospital policy, you know? They knew that, but like I said, I didn't work it. I called in, and they decided to keep on doing it. I guess they figured they'd break me down. But I decided that I was going to do it, and see what happened, didn't decide to quit. WS: And you know she worked for the county. We didn't have any [problem] at the state, we really did a job on the state, and the state had to change at The Citadel and wherever the state owned any property, everybody came under that rule, but the county did not come under that, and they had some real people scheming that was in charge of county. A matter of fact, the same Esau Jenkins that Mrs. Moultrie was talking about, she, he made somebody go to this guy who was head of the county council over McClellanville, ten or eleven o'clock one night, and said, "Now, y'all got to do something, y'all are going to do something about the workers getting back to work." So Esau went over there, got Reverend Alston to take it, and to make some changes with that. But there's a difference in between the county and the state government. Matter of fact, that guy that did that, I mean, that he's, right now he's got a bust of him somewhere by being one of the greatest leaders in the state of South Carolina, with the county �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 39 association. I'll be surprised who the heroes are in the state of South Carolina, county of Charleston. (off-topic) KT: Are there things that you might have done differently, either personally or strategically? RS: I would not have, because like I said, you know, when you are treated badly, and there's a way where you can correct some of it, you stick with what, you know, what you have, the help that's been out here for you. Because when Medical started organizing, I wasn't aware of it until early part of '68, when I joined in with them. And I didn't realize that some of the workers who were at Memorial Hospital were receiving the same kind of treatment over there, and this was how I started organizing at Charleston Memorial Hospital. And there were really anxious to come over, to, you know, receive some help. Because help was available, you know? Like Mr. Saunders said, everybody, some people, fear is always in you when you think your job is threatened, and your economic, is more important, it is important to you, you know? And there were a lot of people who, not a lot of people, some people who were displaced because of not having a job. There were electricity problems, you know, like, not being on--. But then their family supported those who were out too, because I didn't live alone, me and my older sister lived together. So I didn't have that pressure on me, per se, economically. You know, so I knew what I was going to do, I knew what I had to do, and I was going to stay out until the end, if need be. And this is what, the attitude some of us did take. Now, there were some employees at Charleston Memorial Hospital who did not ever get rehired, because there were, we started with a hundred, and we dwindled down to sixty-nine. They hired forty- �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 40 two, and that left twenty-seven persons out. They never got rehired, so they just went and found jobs elsewhere. Joi Mayo: In the article, I know we're talking about the MUSC library, or not library, but the hospital downtown, you now since Mrs. Moultrie is here, but they were talking about how, like, some of the other people came in who were hired during the strike, and their husbands would drive them to work, you know, up to the hospital. You know, they had, like, a weapon with them, just in case, I guess, people would retaliate, since, you know, I don't know if they're breaking the strike, or, you know, they were hired late. Or how did y'all feel towards those kind of people who were, you know, kind of going against y'all? RS: Well, I can tell you, we, I found out at Memorial Hospital, that we had persons who were coming here, coming at the union hall, to the meetings, and they were going to work. So I called dietary, these couple of persons who were working, they answered the telephone. So I hung up. So the next morning, we got up at four o'clock that morning. We went because the time for them to go to work was five o'clock. Se we stationed ourselves where we could see them. They came in, and they went, you know, you know where Charleston Memorial Hospital is, right? They went to the, not Lockwood, the street, the road above that, and they came over, and then they went into the hospital. So we saw them. They came here to, they came to the union hall, and those girls was, they had two by fours, and they really wanted to put something on [them]. I said, "No, we don't do it that way." We don't. I mean, because they were scabs, is what we called them, scabs. You know, they were here receiving state benefits, they were here listening to all that was going on, and they were still going to work on the jobs. �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 41 KT: Because you could get some payment from the union if you were, you were on the picket lines. RS: You did, you did. You were. There were strike benefits available, and there was food every day, every day. KT: Do you remember how strike benefits compared to your regular pay? RS: Oh, it was nothing compared to your regular pay, nothing at all. KT: Just a little bit to maybe pay some bills, buy some food? RS: It's maintenance of either transportation, or buying some lunch, or if you prefer not to eat, you know, well, the food was available for that. I never received strike benefit, because economically, I was not, like I said, me and my older sister lived together, so therefore, and at that particular time, I was about to go on maternity leave. So I was little stash here, and a little stash there, and a little stash there. So economically, I didn't, I wasn't better than nobody else, but I was preparing, you know, myself for me being out from work anyway, to a degree. But I was out longer than I had expected, because I didn't go back to work until November 10th of 1969. But there were available funds for all persons who were out on strike, through the national union. Lisa Wu: Would you have done anything different? RS: When we hear about it now, it's so many people who was involved with the hospital strike, and names you've never heard of before, faces you've never seen before, but they're carrying the banner that we were on strike, we were on the picket line, we were on everywhere. And they say, you know, you have to, I just listen, really. WS: Now, see, very rarely you find people that do the heavy lifting, get the reward out of what they're doing. There's so many gains. That strike changed the state of �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 42 South Carolina. Blacks beginning to get jobs that they never would have gotten, all over the state. And what the state leaders done, they would never hire anybody that was a part of even getting in the civil rights movement. So the top black that they hired over at the Medical College was Marion, Judge Marion, who'd never been involved in anything, but he ended up with a real powerful job at the Medical College, but after the strike was over. And we find that that happened all over the state of South Carolina. The Human Affairs Commission got started, and Jim Clyburn, who's now the Majority Whip, ended up being the commissioner for that Human Affairs Commission. So, and you can see how that have catapulted him, had changed right there, right after that strike. I mean, blacks began to get elected to office, statewide office, in the city of Charleston. Herbert Fielding got elected in 1970, right behind that we got three or four other blacks that got elected. And so there's a lot of things that, good stuff that came out of there, and there's a lot of people that got benefits out of that. But the people that did pay the price, none of them got any benefits out of that. And that has caused a lot of bitterness around some people, in terms of, you know, because when you talk about the hospital workers, you talk about letting that not happen, that there's a lot of folk that have enjoyed a good life today because of that strike. And again, none of that has been written up, in terms of the ripple effects of that strike. And things changed at The Citadel, you know? And that's how I ended up being a commencement speaker for the graduate school over there at The Citadel. I mean, they put a better group of people to talk about community relations and race relations, and all of that came out of that strike. There's a lot of, lot of good things that happened. One of the things that Ms. Simmons talks about all the time, and one of the things that came out of that was the respect. Well, I had, and I still got it, my motto is, either you �Mary Moultrie, William Saunders, Rosetta Simmons 43 respect me or you fear me, and I don't give a damn which one you choose, because there's a very thin line between respect and fear. So you respect me or you fear me. But, you know, you've got to know that I'm present. And there was a song that the Temptations made during that strike that I used to play, when I went into radio business that, why do I have to throw a brick before anybody recognize me or know that I'm here? And people still have to do that. Why, why should you have to do something like that, without, before anybody will recognize that you're a human being or that you're there? Lisa Wu: Is there anybody in particular that you feel that should get some recognition from this, that's been forgotten? END OF INTERVIEW Matt Allbritton March 20, 2010 Reviewed by: KG April 14, 2010; SW September 24, 2010; KT June 6, 2011 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kieran Walsh Taylor Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Moultrie William Saunders Rosetta Simmons Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2 hours, 28 minutes Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of Mary Moultrie, William Saunders and Rosetta Simmons, interviewed by Kieran Walsh Taylor, 5 March, 2009 Subject The topic of the resource Hospital Workers' Strike, Charleston, S.C., 1969 African Americans--Civil rights--South Carolina--Charleston Hospitals--Staff--Labor unions--South Carolina--Charleston Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Description An account of the resource For over three months in 1969, four hundred African-American hospital workers from the Medical College of South Carolina and Charleston County Hospital walked off their jobs in protest over discrimination and the right to form a union. The state government and hospital boards argued that workers receiving pay from public funds could not engage in collective bargaining. The hospital strikers were mostly women, some of whom earned below the federal minimum wage; white hospital workers performing the same jobs were paid higher. This interview details the experiences of two women involved in the strike, Mary Moultrie and Rosetta Simmons, and a local civil rights activist who helped organize the strike, William Saunders. Moultrie and Simmons describe the working conditions before the strike and their demand for “respect as human beings.” Saunders remembers the racial tension in the city during the strike, detailing threats made by local officials and the false arrests of activists. All three interviewees report that African Americans at the hospital today are “afraid” to push for better pay and working conditions. Saunders also comments on the fact that “nothing is illegal in South Carolina,” referring to the fact that the state continues to deny public sector workers the right to collectively bargain. The session, which took place at the office of the union representing City workers (Local 1199-Charleston), was part of a Citadel graduate course on local history. Citadel history professor Kerry Taylor guided the initial portion of the conversation and various students followed with their own questions. For additional interviews related to the hospital workers strike, visit the Southern Oral History Program collection at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the Avery Research Center at the College of Charleston.<br /><br /><h3><strong><a target="_blank" href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23445" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library</a></strong></h3> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-03-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/192 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/d3049919ab71cac7cfc219df98872089.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=Jk%7E53iE0TRorhi2-sLzs6A%7EV655AE2ElWMLXDfo0-o8D5gQk0CaMFpfJhcCcUoLOI--mhpQ9BMT7Xw8KaJft8W6h2JNYYnczwMbkmsyZ4UqeOOj1E1ZdPnNhE4mK3lUk1%7E8hpaQhggK5BU6-APaqjGmwEh2A72aaI9FtIViRYhraPwhA97wa4iOWXNEsV2sTujDOu3ClKP1K1eymWj7hrOurPEibyTGGPWNzghrJyJhMjxYIM0MjUIV2vt4p9YVJXQ-hNXu4mDn5bEmS4c2sEC2kCXLJRzS2zfCt22LQ8el%7ECJfIMcvPliDZUUO8MXDYdXAK-TWBFOqRXQhV045VHA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 8a7d6c7d72dda6907cf778a4e5e31bff PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT - ERIN MCKEE Interviewee: ERIN MCKEE Interviewer: JASON (PINO) Interview Date: Nov. 14, 2013 Location: Charleston, South Carolina Length: 66 minutes JASON (PINO): My name is Jason (Pinot) and I would just like to ask you to state your name and where you were born. ERIN MCKEE: Erin McKee, Brooklyn, New York. JP: Okay, and your profession, you were a prior flight attendant, or you're still a flight attendant? EM: Prior. JP: What were some of the hardest things pertaining to that job that you faced as a flight attendant? EM: Staying awake with very long duty days; trying to get Europeans, especially Italians and Greeks not to smoke on the airplane when they weren't supposed to. Those are probably some of the toughest. JP: What is the different, in your opinion, between the way it was back when you were a flight attendant and the way it is now? I know like in Hollywood, they glamorize it and make it look like Pan Am where everybody's weighing in and things like that. Were you subject to any of that? EM: Yes, I had to weigh in to get hired; only to get hired. And you had to have your fingernails painted and you had to have your hair up. And I have very fine hair, so I �Erin McKee 2 would put it up in a ponytail and then in a bun and put pins on it. And I would lean over to give somebody a drink and all the pins would fall out. Of course it just wouldn't stay, but yes, we had to weigh a certain amount, and we had to have our hair and our nails done all the time. JP: Why do you think that is? EM: I think they wanted everybody to look attractive. JP: So, as a flight attendant and as a stewardess in that profession, I imagine that you've traveled all over the world and seen tons of different cultures and different people and things like that. Can you elaborate on some of the more interesting places that you've been and things you've seen and done? EM: I've been to little huts in Africa. I've been to Surinam, which is a country I never even knew existed, (00:02:09 unintelligible) over in Japan and Korea. We did actually a lot of military flying, so I've been to bases all over the world. I love Europe. It was fun. JP: Were there any scary moments as a flight attendant? Being in the air, it's by definition a pretty dangerous profession, you know, getting off the ground. Do you think there were any moments where you were unsure about the safety of the aircraft or anything like that? EM: Well, I was on an aborted takeoff in Ireland. And I was pretty new at the time. And I think that I probably wasn't smart enough to be afraid, but we had a nun sitting across us on the jump seat, like crossing herself and praying. We landed in Israel on fire once, but it wasn't a bad fire. And we were met with the fire trucks. A couple of scary landings just due to weather, but that was about it. �Erin McKee 3 MALE VOICE: So, did you say born in Brooklyn? Is that where you were raised as well? Was it your childhood? Tell us a little bit more about the family. EM: Okay. I was born in Brooklyn. And I have a brother and sister. When I was five, we moved out to Long Island. And when I graduated high school, I went to Brockport, New York for my first year of college. And even though I grew up on Long Island, New York, that was way too cold for me, so I came back and I went to a community college, and then graduated from Baruch in the city. And I had been a waitress putting myself through college. And I enjoyed it, but actually my father said, "Why did I help pay for college and you're a waitress?" So, he saw the job for the flight attendant in the newspaper and said, "Why don't you try for it?" And they said experience or a language preferred, and I had none, so I figured I could go and they wouldn't hire me and everything would be okay; I could continue waitressing. And I made good money; very good money. But they hired me and I worked there for a year and a half with the first company. They went out of business while I was on a trip in Rome, and I had to fine my own way home. Luckily, some other airlines had heard that the company was going out of business, so they let us fly free. But you'd go to the airport every day and wait and see if they had available seats. And I guess I was on unemployment for about three months, and got hired by the second company with a second airplane. It had one route, just JFK to Tel Aviv. And I got hired with the second plane. We did a lot of military flying. We did a lot of charter flying, vacations. We did some religious trips. We did a lot of refuge trips out of Russia, out of some African countries. We did very different types of flying. And I moved down to South Carolina in 1996. �Erin McKee 4 JP: Okay, so would you say - you said you started off with your father kind of pushing you towards the route of being a flight attendant. Did that become a passion of yours? What was your original - if you had an original goal, like what was it that you were going to college to do and try to be and things like that? EM: Well, I got a degree in business administration and marketing. I always wanted to be a teacher, but at the time, I had three cousins that had just graduated college with teaching degrees and there were no jobs, so I switched. And I never really wanted to be a flight attendant. And you'll laugh at this. I don't like to fly. I think it's kind of crazy. But I love to be in different places and travel the world, so you've got to fly to get to most places. JP: Absolutely. And as far as - what was your favorite country to visit, like if you had to choose one. You've been to many obviously, but if you had to choose one? EM: Probably Greece. JP: You mind elaborating on that as to why? EM: The history - I mean there's two places in the world that really when you see them - and the Acropolis is one of them - is just amazing. But the history and the people; they work hard, they play hard. The food is good. The beaches are beautiful. It's a really nice place. But I love Europe in general; Prague also was just breathtaking. They have a nice lifestyle there. JP: Absolutely. Now the coastal kind of vibe that you get going to Greece because I myself have been to Greece - is that kind of where - why you chose Charleston as the place for you to stay now? Is that kind of right along the line there? EM: No. �Erin McKee 5 JP: So, why Charleston of all places that you could live? EM: The rest of my family had moved down here. I was a single parent trying to fly, so I moved down here so my mother could babysit my son. JP: So, your mother lives in Charleston? EM: No, she got sick shortly after I moved down here and passed away. But she did, and that's why I came down here. So, where have you been in Greece? Let me interview you a little bit. JP: Where have I been in Greece? I've been to - wow, turn the tables, wow. I've been to - Santorini is the only place that I've been in Greece; and Kantakalon where they host the Olympics, so that was pretty cool. EM: Santorini is beautiful. JP: Yes, absolutely. MV: So, you were what, basically nineteen when you started flying? EM: No. I was twenty six. Yeah, I took the six-year college because I wanted to have my own money, so I worked through college; took me six years to get out. MV: So, when you hired, what was the first company you worked for? EM: It was a company called National Airlines. We flew DC-8s. And then I got hired with Tower Air, and we flew 747s. MV: So, when you hired in, were you a stewardess? Was that the job? EM: Yeah. But they don't like you to be called a stewardess. They want you to be called a flight attendant. MV: But at that point it was commonly referred to. EM: Yes. �Erin McKee 6 MV: Talk a little bit about that transition though because I think many people don't realize that took deliberate work to make that transition. EM: Yeah. Again, back in - well, when they first started in the airline industry, I think they wanted you to have a degree in nursing also. But then it got to where they just wanted attractive women on the airplane, and of course there were problems with that. Everybody should be entitled to a job if they're qualified. So, we had to - the unions basically had to fight that there were no longer restrictions on your weight, as long as you could do the job. And you didn't have to have your nails done all the time. So, it took some transitioning to get - and to be referred to as a flight attendant because while they wanted attractive people to serve you, the main reason that a flight attendant is on the airplane is if there's an emergency, to get you out of that airplane safely. It's not to look good. It's not to serve you meals really. You're there by law, federal regulations, to get people out of a plane in a certain amount of time if there's an emergency. JP: So, when about in timeframe did that priority - did those priorities switch? And were you around for that transition, like as far as switching from everybody being really good-looking to actual practical application for the people being on the airplane? EM: Oh, God, it was probably in the late '80s, early '90s, and we didn't have an airline - I mean a union at the airlines that I worked. The second one we organized one. And we didn't get paid a lot of money. But when you have week layovers in Greece and Rome and Paris, you don't really care about the money. But what we did care about is sleeping. We worked - and I'm not lying - thirty, thirty-five hour days. There were no regulations against scheduling somebody to work that long. And we would get to the �Erin McKee 7 hotel, and sometimes we'd have six hours in a hotel, and get back on the plane and do it all over again. So, we organized because we wanted to have single rooms, and we wanted duty time legislation because again, if you have six hours in a room, especially a female, most of you have short hair, but for females, if you have six hours to sleep, somebody's going to have to get up an hour earlier to get in the shower first, do their hair and do their makeup. And we were tired. So, we organized. It took us four years to get our first contract because it was during Desert Shield, Desert Storm. And it was hard to get everybody on the negotiating committee to meet because Tower Air flew more military back and forth than any other airline did during that time. JP: Can you kind of elaborate on your involvement a little more as far as being within the union and what your role was personally? EM: Yeah. I helped try and organize it. And then I figured I'd let somebody else do it, and I'd sit back. And I was probably - we might have had about eighty flight attendants at the time, and I was probably about number forty-five or fifty in seniority. Well, all the people that wanted to lead the union were all in the top ten. So, some of the people that kind of - in the thirties and forties in seniority came to my room in Rome one night with a bottle of wine, and said, "Would you please be on the negotiating committee because we should not have everybody high in seniority on the negotiating committee because they'll be looking out for their interests instead of everybody's." So, they kind of talked me into it, and I became the secretary/treasurer, and was on the negotiating committee. And then the union had asked if I would go to Washington, D. C. and speak in front of a congressional subcommittee about duty time legislation. �Erin McKee 8 And I was kind of nervous about it. I had written a speech, but got there and was sitting in this capitol saying, "What am I doing here?" And someone from the FAA got up and spoke against it. And he said that if there was an accident, that our adrenaline would kick in and we didn't need duty time regulations. So, then I was so angry that I couldn't wait to speak, and had everybody laughing at one point. But they did not pass it that time. Two or three years later, some other flight attendants went back and brought it up again. And they finally got duty time legislation where they could not schedule you, I believe it was more than eighteen hours. But that did not mean you could not work. It just meant they couldn't schedule you more than eighteen hours. JP: So, you really just ended up being on the books for eighteen hours, but you would be able to work however much they actually needed you to work? EM: Yes. It was to cut down on the real abuse, but still give the airlines the flexibility that if there was a delay or something, you didn't walk off the airplane and say, "My eighteen hours is done." JP: So, what's to prevent them from - like is there a kind of an overtime compensation thing that goes on with that, or if you work your eighteen hours and they say we still need you, you're only getting paid for eighteen hours, is that kind of a loophole type deal that they've got going on? EM: Well, since organized and we had a contract, we got paid overtime. And actually we got paid pretty good overtime. JP: So, what have you seen as your biggest benefit from being a flight attendant? What have you taken away from that? �Erin McKee 9 EM: Well, to see the whole world was absolutely wonderful, how other people live, how Europeans have so many things that we don't in this country, like healthcare. If you got sick, you could just go to the drug store and tell them you had an earache and you got medicine; and that they all took vacations was nice. But one of the main things from being a flight attendant, after we got the union in, is that I had good health insurance. I had retirement, and you know, being a single parent that was really important to have some good benefits. JP: So, prior to the union development, there weren't any healthcare benefits for flight attendants or anything of that nature? EM: It would go union by union. I mean airline by airline, what you had, and what you fought for. JP: So, the second airline you flew for you said was - what was the name of that second airline? EM: Tower Air. JP: And they took care of you pretty well, I'm assuming? EM: Mm-hmm. JP: Okay, and the first airline, did they have any kind of infrastructure as far as providing people with medical insurance and things like that? EM: I did have medical insurance. I don't believe I had any retirement at that airline. JP: How does it work taking care of your kids when you're spending hours and hours on an airplane? I mean I understand you said you gave your kid away to your mother, or your children. �Erin McKee 10 EM: I didn't give him away. JP: Well, not gave away. I misspoke. EM: Well, before I had my son, I would look for long layovers because again, I loved to go different places. And after my son was born, then I chose to try and do turnarounds, so I'd fly to LA and back, or I would fly twice a week. I would fly - once I moved down here, on Saturdays I would go up to New York. Then I would fly New York-Miami, Miami-Rios, six hours in the hotel, and do it all back. And I was home by Monday. So, you were gone for a lot of hours, but when you think about it, I was gone a lot of times when my son was sleeping, whereas people that work Monday through Friday, they're gone all day long. So, when I worked, I worked. But then when I was home, I spent all my time with him. JP: So, do you think there were any times that you missed, that if you'd been in another profession that you would have gotten to be there, as far as maybe the development of your child or something like that? EM: No, I don't think so because even if you have a regular nine-to-five job, Monday through Friday, you still might miss the first step or whatever, which I didn't. But you never know. And again, when I was home, I was home all the time. But I will tell you that that is only because my seniority number was eighteen. There are flight attendants that sit two and three years on reserve. That's why after the airline I worked for went out of business, I never chose to go to another airline because I would not be at the bottom of seniority and be on reserve. It only worked because I was so high up in the company that I could choose my schedule. JP: Absolutely. How does the seniority process work in the unions like that, like �Erin McKee 11 how do you go up in rank I guess you would say? EM: Well, I can only tell you about the flight attendant, and I can tell you about where I work now. As a flight attendant, your date of hire is your seniority date, or at least it was where I worked. And every month, a schedule would come out. And you would bid, and you would get it according to what your seniority number was. Where I work now, I work for an Electrical Workers' Building Trades Local. And their seniority is of course the day that they get into the union. But to get a job, they have to sign what's called a book, and it's an actual book. We have the same one since 1975. They sign for a job .They have a book number. And then if we have a job available that day, it's like a hiring call. They come in and sign a day sheet, and it goes book, and then day sheet for them to get a job. JP: So, there's no like this person has worked this many hours. It's just when their date of initial employment is when they - ranks them in seniority? EM: That's how it was for us, yes. JP: So, there's no like this person is more qualified than this person to be - to have more say within the union? So, the most - just the oldest person has the biggest say within the union? EM: Well, not really. You get to pick your schedule that way, and then you have on airplanes, you have what's called a purser. And that is like the lead flight attendant in charge. And again, probably different airlines do it differently. What we did was once we organized and had our union, we told them if you want to have an upgrade for pursers, make it available to everybody. Give everybody the opportunity to apply to do it. But if they don't work out, you as management have the right to get rid of them. It wasn't just �Erin McKee 12 because you were senior that you automatically became one because not everybody is qualified. But we gave everybody the opportunity to try it out. And then again, it's management's responsibility if they cannot do the job, that they push them back to a flight attendant. JP: Okay. Now, attaining a job as a flight attendant, especially after the recent terrorist activity and things going on like that, how has that increased the difficulty in receiving employment with those kinds of airlines or institutions, anything like that? EM: I don't really know because I stopped flying, I guess in 1998. I don't think it's difficult to find employment. Everybody still likes it. I must say that I'm probably glad I don't do it anymore. I miss it, but I'm probably glad I don't do it anymore. JP: Okay, was there any time when security was constricted, and if so, how did that impact your work, if at all? EM: Well, I worked for an airline that was owned by an Iraqi Jewish man out of Israel. And we started with one flight. It was JFK to Tel Aviv. That was it. So, we were already a target. And before every single flight - and we were on 747s, and some of those airplanes had - largest had five hundred five seats on it. We picked up every seat cushions. We looked in every seat back pocket. There was a time when we used to open up the food trays that came in, and just glance at them. We went in the bathrooms and we checked behind the toilet paper and the paper towels. And we did more security than most airlines did way back when. JP: What was the protocol had you found something? What would have had to have done? EM: We would have had to tell the lead flight attendant, who would have called �Erin McKee 13 security. JP: Very concise sequence of events. MV: Erin do you remember your worst day as a flight attendant? EM: There are some memories. No, I really don't. JP: Now on the flipside of that, how about your best day as a flight attendant? EM: Probably - I can't tell you the best day, but I can tell you kind of the best feeling was on a Friday night when you show up at work and everybody's going on vacation. The other thing that was also very - because they were in a good mood. The other thing that was also very touching was when we did Desert Shield, Desert Storm, some of the guys when they joined the military, they really never thought they would have to go into a war-type situation. And some of them were scared. And we wrote letters. And then bringing them back, that was pretty good. JP: I'm sorry, you were carrying the letters or you wrote them? EM: No, we wrote them letters. Some of them, when they came back, came to my house and visited, and bringing them back, they always invited us to t heir parties. Every time they landed, all the family members were there. And it was pretty touching. And we actually got some medals and certificates because once - if you are in what's considered a war situation, flying in and out, you are actually given some kind of ranking with the military because if something happens, you will be in control. And we had one crew that ended up having to stay outside the airplane when they first started with the Scuds in tents with gas masks. We also had - and I didn't do any of these because I was negotiating the contract - in and out of Mogadishu, they started firing at one of the airplanes. So, it was pretty hairy sometimes. �Erin McKee 14 JP: You were on an aircraft that got fired upon? EM: I wasn't on it, but one of our planes, yes, in Mogadishu. JP: That's terrifying. As far as you said that you get honorary rank from the military, like how does - I'm not sure how that works. EM: You know, I can't remember, but you get into a certain - with the military, you get into a certain situation where if you are flying troops, you get some kind of ranking. And I wish I had brought what they gave me because I still have the medals and the certificates at my house. MV: Were you a captain like me? EM: I don't think so. I don't know, I'll have to go check. JP: So, you picked up officer just by - that's awesome - by flying troops. That's so cool. EM: But it was just a temporary thing. It wasn't that we were in the military. It's just if something happened on the airplane, you know, with the military there's a chain of command, so we had to be in that chain of command. JP: Oh, okay, so it was they would answer to you if certain things happened, as if you were a member of their chain of command? EM: Yes, on our airplane. JP: All right. That makes a little more sense. So, at the time, did they have to salute you and call you ma'am? EM: No. JP: No? So, they didn't have to snap to attention? EM: No, we got our medals and our certificates afterwards. They sent them to us. �Erin McKee 15 JP: That's an interesting dynamic. MV: The company went out of business. How did you leave the industry? Was it purely because the job ended? EM: Oh, no. Actually, I took a leave of absence because my mother got so sick that she couldn't watch my son. And while I was on the leave of absence, they went out of business. And despite the fact that we organized and we fought with the company trying to get duty time legislation and single rooms, we had an okay relationship with the owner of the company. And once a year, whoever is in New York, he usually takes them all out for a big lunch. And that company went out of business probably in maybe 2000 or 2001. JP: What was the recourse of people getting laid off? I understand there would be grievances and things like that, but were there any other union ramifications or anything within the union that said you can't lay people off after they've been employed for this long? Anything like that? EM: No, a layoff is when there's just not enough work, and you really can't file a grievance unless they don't do it properly. And in the airline industry, again, it's that seniority number. So, it goes reverse. The last one that's been hired is the first one that is going to get laid off when it gets slow. JP: Why do you think that is? Because it's counterintuitive for somebody who's just getting hired who isn't getting paid as much as somebody who has been in the business for years and years - it's counterintuitive to - because those people are going to be making more money anyhow, so why do you think that's the order of progression with regards to employment? �Erin McKee 16 EM: Because that's what we fought for in the union contract. And that's when you have the most experienced people on the airplane. When you do overseas flying, there's a lot of international paperwork. When you do military flying, there's a lot of additional paperwork. You've got duty-free on the airplane. You don't want somebody who's at the bottom of seniority and getting rid of all the people that have the experience that's needed in handling the situation. I mean it's a safety job. You have to go once a year for three days of recurrent training, to make sure that you know what to do on the airplane. So, they don't want people there that are not that experienced. JP: What is that training like? Was there any kind of schooling that you had to have prior to becoming a flight attendant? And can you elaborate on that, like what that was like? EM: You have to learn each airplane. For me it was pretty easy because one airline was a DC-8 and one was a 747. Some of the bigger airlines, they have a whole bunch of planes. And you have to be certified on each plane. Before you fly on it, you have to know where all the fire extinguishers are. You have to know where all the first aid kits are. You have to know first aid. You have to know how to get everybody out of a plane. And you do a mock-up evacuation. I think a 747 had to be evacuated within either two or three minutes. You have to jump down those slides, open those doors, the windows, everything, get in the life raft. JP: So, you have recurring certifications to where you have to do these tests once every three years, you say? EM: One year. JP: Every year. �Erin McKee 17 EM: Every year. Mm-hmm. JP: Okay, so right now you couldn't go and be a flight attendant. EM: No, I'd have to start at the bottom. JP: Right at square one again. EM: Mm-hmm. JP: So, was there any - when you first started off, there's recurring recertifications. What additional schooling was there when you first started as a flight attendant? EM: I think mine was two weeks in the classroom, again, to learn all the airplanes and take all the tests and do the first aid, and do the safety with the fire extinguishers and the life rafts and everything. JP: What was your biggest struggle as a flight attendant, as far as dealing with people or I don't know, getting the food tray out of the thing? I don't know how it all works out. I’m sorry. EM: Again, the biggest problem was when people used to smoke. They had to smoke in their seats, and they didn't want to. They wanted to get up in the back of the airplane. Now the reasoning was that if somebody - and it made no sense to me, and I'm glad they don't allow smoking on the airplane. But if somebody was sitting in the seat and you hit turbulence, hopefully the cigarette would fall back on them. Whereas, if they're standing and it rolls on the floor, you could end up with a fire. And that was probably the biggest problem was again, monitoring that because you certainly don't want a plane catching on fire. JP: I know there's a level of couth that comes with being a flight attendant. Was there ever a situation where you just could - where you were struggling to handle a �Erin McKee 18 specific passenger or anything like that? EM: No, not really. I mean some - it was tough, but you have to just be kind of easygoing, and you have to learn to just let it go and laugh about it. Otherwise, you shouldn't be in the business. JP: Makes sense. I couldn't do what you do. I couldn't do it at all. MV: I’m sure there were plenty of drunks. You've got to learn how to handle EM: Yeah, again, you laugh at them. JP: Was there ever somebody that was belligerent to the point where you had to get several people in on sitting them down or anything like that? EM: No, I never had that problem. When I first started, I used to work the back of the airplane, which was very, very big. And one day - and we had an upper deck on a 747, only fourteen or sixteen seats up there. But a lot of flight attendants didn't want to work up there because they had to deal with the pilot. And the pilot didn't like the flight attendant up there, so he said, "I want somebody else." And I was the bottom of the seniority list, so they sent me up. And I kind of never left because I can usually get along with everybody. So, I didn't have too many problems. Sometimes people would argue about their luggage, getting it underneath the seat. You've got to keep the aisle clear. If there's an emergency, you can't have bags there. So, that could be a problem arguing with people, but that was about it. JP: Now as far as dealing with your superiors in a male, especially when you are a flight attendant, it was a very male dominated environment. How did you handle that as far as being a woman and dealing with potentially misogynistic male counterparts? EM: Well, the males were really the crew in the cockpit. And again, I usually can �Erin McKee 19 find a way to get along with everybody. So, I knew who wanted rice. I knew who wanted Tabasco sauce and that we couldn't leave the ground without it. We had some flight engineers right here from Charleston. I would carry instant grits in my bag, so I would know who I was flying with and make sure I had what would make them happy because that just made everything go much smoother. JP: Now was it like Pan Am where you guys all went out on the town and hung out with the crew and things like that? EM: Yeah. JP: So, can you give us one of your more exciting stories, as far as being in a particular country? EM: This is the Citadel. I can't do that. No, I can tell you though, that if you ever go to Frankfurt, if you go to the (00:33:03 Bas Lareck), because that was one of our military flights into the Frankfurt airport, you'll still see the little Tower Air sticker. And that was one of our hangouts where we would all go and eat. And it was an airline crew hangout, so he treated us very well. And at the end of dinner, he would come over with shots of Schnapps in all different flavors. And it was pretty interesting. And we had another favorite place in Belgium, of a retired prostitute, who opened up a restaurant. And that was pretty interesting. It was in the red light district of Brussels. And you know, we had our favorite hangouts. In fact, Greece being that it was one of my favorites, I used to try and spend five or six weeks every summer there. And I like to shop. And I had friends that liked what I brought back, so I'd buy them stuff. And then I made friends with everybody in the (00:33:57 Placa), the main shopping area. And I would bring them goods that they couldn't get in Greece. And I never made any money �Erin McKee 20 off of it. I just did it because I felt bad for them. And I made friends with them. And one time he Air Force One crew was out our hotel. And we were up at the pool, and they were asking about shopping. And somebody said, "You go see the lady over there." So, I took them all down to the (00:34:24 Placa) shopping with me. And I knew most of the store owners, and I could walk into a store. And in Greece, they always have beer and liquor for their customers. And I would go in the back and get everybody what they wanted to drink, and they just thought it was wonderful that I took them around shopping and could go in and just help myself and get them whatever they wanted. JP: Now you said just now that you've been with Air Force One and things like that. EM: Just the crew. JP: Okay, just the crew from Air Force One. But have you met any really notable characters like famous people, people that are known in history for doing something phenomenal I guess? EM: Not really. Connie Francis was on one of our flights, but she didn't talk to anybody. That was about it. JP: I'm not familiar with Connie Francis. MV: There's no need for you to be. JP: Okay, fair enough. So, Air Force - what is the difference between like the Air Force One crew and a regular commercial crew, if there is any between how they act? EM: Off the airplane? JP: Both. EM: Well, since I didn't go on the airplane with them, but I'm sure Air Force One, �Erin McKee 21 on board, is much different than flying for Tower Air. But off the airplane, they wanted to have a good time. They wanted to do what we liked to do, is see the sights, shop, eat, drink, have fun. MV: Probably got about a half hour left, but do others have questions? MV: Is it confusing because if you fly all day, like jet lag, how does that work? EM: Again, because I did international flying, I think you get used to being tired, seriously. But you really didn't notice it unless you had more than three or four days off. And then by the third or fourth day, it really hit you. But when you're going and going and going, you don't even have time to realize it. But when I would travel from one country to another country every single day, there were times when I would go and try and put my key in and it wouldn't work. And I'd go downstairs to the desk, and I'm trying to get in the room number I had from the night before because you're just so exhausted. Again, we worked thirty, thirty-five hours in a row. And that was rough sometimes. But the jet lag, not until you had a vacation did you really realize how tired you were. MV: Yes, as a flight attendant back then, you couldn't actually do the job all over again, the post-911 era, and all that stuff that happened now, like a few years back, like the underwear bomber in Detroit, you think you could actually handle that type of stress now, now that there's a new aspect of that career? EM: I probably could, but I wouldn't want to. Again, I'm very lucky for the type of flying I did, the time that I did it. But I don't think I'd want to do it again, not now. Again, I was single for most of the time that I flew. I only had my son the last probably three or four years of flying. But I don't think I'd want to do that now. �Erin McKee 22 MV: What do you think about flight attending and its relevance to pop culture. I'm sure like Pan Am and stuff, they glamorize it. What do you think about that stuff when you see it? EM: I only watched probably one or two shows, and I enjoyed it. It can be a really wild different time. And I'll tell you that one of the girls that I flew with, she went afterwards and worked for a company that she could not tell me who she worked for. She could not tell me where she went or who she flew. I know she spent a lot of time in Romania though. It can be really, really interesting when you fly international flying. MV: You say you did - more like I guess Tower Air did like refugee trips out of Russia, and I guess the eastern bloc countries. Did you ever do any of this and what was that like? EM: Mm-hmm. It was really strange. We would get in about four or five in the morning. Nobody really knew we were coming in. If somebody, say my age or forties, fifties, wanted to come to this country, they had to take of course their children. They had to take their parents. We had four cots and doctors on every single flight. We never had that before. They reconstructed the airplane to put cots in because there were people that were sick, very sick; a lot of hypodermic needles all over those airplanes. But they had - if the family wanted to leave, they had to take everybody. So, again, some of these elderly people, they don't want to come here. We had to sometimes get security to come and very gently try and get some of the passengers off the airplane because they were afraid. So, that was some different flying. JP: When they rebuilt those planes, how did they account for all of the medical �Erin McKee 23 equipment and things like that? Did they make it a double wide plane? EM: No, the plane was the same. They took out seats and made - you know, instead of having seats, they had cots there. We also did a trip around the world Praying For World Peace with some Indian guru. I should have brought pictures. It was wild. And on that flight, they actually turned a couple of the seats into a podium that he sat in. And again, they had to have it approved by the FAA that he could sit in that seat with his seat belt on. With that type of a flight, I think there were probably around two hundred people and the plane held about - that one probably about four hundred seventy five. So, when you went beyond a certain point in the airplane, you had to take off your shoes. You could not use the restrooms in the back, and you could not eat. And everything was vegetarian on those flights the whole ten days. We would get on board and the ladies would open up their suitcases and give us clothes to wear. And we would put on their clothes, and they have us singing and dancing in the back with them, and praying. And then on the return flight to JFK - and our supervisors were not happy - we landed in Indian dress instead of our uniforms, at their request. And then the (00:41:51 Bapu) wanted to have one last prayer before we all left. And every single person including the captain, got out of that airplane and sat on the tarmac in the rain for one last prayer. That was pretty interesting, too. JP: So, everyone had to get out so he could pray, like they didn't put you back into your Indian garments? EM: Oh, we landed in our Indian garments. JP: But then you had to leave the plane for him to pray? EM: Mm-hmm. �Erin McKee 24 JP: I don't understand. MV: They all prayed together. JP: Oh, okay. But he was in the airplane and you guys all had to leave because you were what, the Americans? EM: Oh, no, we didn't leave. We joined them. Everybody had to get off the plane. JP: Okay, I thought you - he stayed on the plane with his (00:42:39), and then you got off the plane. EM: No, no, everybody got off; the passengers, the crew, everybody, and sat in the rain for the last prayer. We did some - we took two 747s full of Catholics over to let's see, I think we started in Lourdes, France, and went to Portugal, and Czechoslovakia. That's what it was at that time - and Poland, and then to Moscow and St. Petersburg, two Catholic churches. And everybody - all the passengers had blue coats, and nobody was allowed to drink on that flight. But at the end of the flight, the priests said, "We know you have alcohol in those beverage carts. Can you give us a couple of bottles of wine?" So, it was pretty interesting. JP: So, as far as the most interesting people you've dealt with, the guru would definitely be right up there at the top? EM: I don't know. Probably the one I remember the most is when we stayed in the Fiji Islands. We would stay for like three weeks at a time, and every third day fly to Australia and back. And we stayed at this resort. And I don't know how I made friends with this little Indian man who worked at the hotel. And he had his wife make me breakfast every morning. And he brought it to work with him. And he would crack open a coconut for me every day about four o’clock and bring it to the pool. And he invited me �Erin McKee 25 and some other flight attendants to his home for dinner, and we met his wife and his children. That was one of the most memorable. And one day I went to another island. I went overnight, and some of the flight attendants didn't want to spend the money; they came the next day. There was my breakfast. He brought it to the hotel, gave it to them. They got in the plane and brought it to me. JP: Wow. As far as - you said earlier that Greece was the favorite place you visited. As far as the culture, is that your - outside of the US, is that one of your more favorite cultures, or do you have any culture that you've found interesting, or anyplace that you'd like to go back and experience that again? EM: I really like all of Europe; I really do. I like their values. Again, they work hard, but they play hard. They take time for vacations. They've got some decent benefits over there and I kind of like that lifestyle. JP: So, we're going to re-open the floor up for questions again, if anybody else has anything to ask. MV: I've been a twenty-six-hour flight before twice, and the food is awful. Did you actually bring your own food for long flights, or did you eat whatever it is? EM: Yeah, I used to always bring food. I like to cook anyway. And again, to keep the pilots happy, one time I made an apple cake and left it on the roof of my car and drove off. But yeah, I always brought food. Believe it or not though, that Indian trip, it was all vegetarian and it was actually pretty good because we didn't have time to get our own food there. And that, we went to I think the Fiji Islands, and then we went to New Zealand. And then we went to India. We were on the front page of the Bombay newspaper because it was Bombay then. That was pretty neat. But yeah, we brought out �Erin McKee 26 own food. And Greece, those were long flights, so we'd go and we'd get tomatoes and potatoes and onions and make our own stuff on the airplane. But sometimes you were stuck eating it. JP: Now with flight becoming a lot more commercial than it used to be, because I know there were only - earlier on in aviation history, only the people who were really wealthy could afford to fly on an airplane. And now, more recently, it's become so commercialized that just about anybody and their brother can fly on a plane. As far as the quality of like the food and things like that, like he was asking, has that altered? Has that changed any? Has the quality gone down? EM: I haven't been on a flight that actually served a meal in a long time, so I don't remember. I mean they used to serve a meal on even two-hour flights. But now, it seems to be you can buy peanuts. Now they're selling food. So, I don't really know too many flights that still have meals, or at least I haven't been on one in a long time. MV: Were some of those cutbacks taking place while you were still flying? EM: No, not really. We served - yeah, we served meals on most of our flights. JP: Even those two-hour - what are now known as connecting flights, they serve meals on those flights as well? EM: Mm-hmm. Because ours were never really connecting. We only - at the height of Tower Air, I think we had twenty two 747s, so we flew to where we were going and that was it. MV: On those long international flights, did you all play movies in the flight? EM: Oh, yeah. MV: Did you have to watch the same movie over and over again? Was it always �Erin McKee 27 something different? EM: It was for a month the same thing. But we would read or - upstairs, I'd go in the cockpit and play cards. We didn't have to watch movies, but they did for a month. MV: I know that like you picked your flight schedule and your rotation and stuff, but did you ever work specifically with other people, like did you ever work with like the same crew all the time, or did you just I'll work with this person, I'll work with this person? EM: For the month, you usually worked with the same people. If you were on people on reserve, they never knew what was going on. They could call you and say be here in two hours, and you had to be there in two hours. But again, I was pretty high up in seniority, so I basically knew who I was flying with. MV: So, you didn't rotate - did you all rotate like lead flight attendant, or like you're going to work the back of the aircraft, did you all switch that up? EM: The lead was called a purser, and they had to apply for that, and go through an interview process, and then see if they were good enough to do it. And other than that, it went by seniority what position on the airplane you got. MV: Did you ever do that? EM: No, I never did. To do that, you lost seniority, and I spent four years negotiating a contract, and after that, I had just had my son. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted what - the schedule I wanted. JP: What was the favorite position on the aircraft, as far as like where you worked? EM: Everybody had a different opinion. Most of the time, you know, when I first �Erin McKee 28 started, I worked the back of the plane. I had a good time. And upstairs, I enjoyed it. It was first class or it was all the - with the military, of course the people higher up in the military were up there. And you had to deal with the cockpit. But I liked it up there because I get along with most people. JP: Now, upper and lower deck, so there used to be two stories to it? EM: On a 747, you had a little stair - spiral staircase that went up to the upper deck, and there were fourteen or sixteen seats and the cockpit. JP: Wow, I've never experienced anything like that. The commercial flights now are all in one seat, so that's pretty interesting. Is it like a double-decker bus type situation, where there's the upper class people on the top deck? EM: Well, when you had upper class, it was usually upstairs and the first section of the airplane, because there were only again, fourteen to sixteen seats. So, first-class service was usually both. JP: Now this is something. When I'm getting onto airplanes and things like that, like it just seems counterintuitive to lead - to load the airplane from the front to the re All right. I understand that people pay more for it, and that would make sense. But I mean I don't understand why it's not loaded from the back to the front. EM: It was when I was a flight attendant. I don't know why they do that now. MV: It's because you left; the whole industry JP: Yeah, exactly, it all went to pot as soon as you left. MV: So, they don't tell you where to sit; you just sit - back to front, or front to back, you just sit? JP: I mean loading front to back, it just seems like - because then you're running �Erin McKee 29 through people. EM: You're going over people, yeah. I don't know why they do that now. JP: I know it's a service priority for people who have paid more money, but I don't know, it just seems like they're going to be on the plane anyway. They're going to be either sitting on the plane or waiting to get on the plane. It just doesn't seem to make that big of a difference EM: Everybody takes off at the same time. JP: Absolutely. EM: Did you have a question? MV: Yes, what about discounts? Did your family receive any travel discounts? And can you please explain the type? EM: Mm-hmm. God, again, that was a long time ago. But I got two free buddy passes a year, where I could bring somebody for free. And my family got a discount. And of course, I could fly on a jump seat if there was availability, anywhere I wanted to go. We had one guy that liked white wine, but doesn't like the sulfites that we put in our wine, so he used to jump seat over to Rome, (00:52:59), and buy as much wine as he could to bring back, and come back the next day because he didn't have to pay for it, and he was crazy. But yeah, my family got a discount. I can't remember how much, but I got two free passes a year, and a discount on the family. And again, the flight attendant themselves could fly anywhere if there was a jump seat available or a seat available. MV: How often did you use those specials? EM: It depends on the person. But I mean I went over to Greece on vacation. Even though I was there a lot in Athens, you really couldn't go too far, especially during �Erin McKee 30 Desert Shield, Desert Storm, schedule changed, so I never really got to go to the islands, so I did go on vacation. And I went out to Puerto Rico, and to California. So, I used it Miami. But that was up to each individual flight attendant. And a lot of flight attendants, again, we started one airplane, one flight, JFK to Tel Aviv. So, we had quite a few Israeli flight attendants, and they used the benefits a lot going back and forth. MV: Talk a little bit about what you did when you left the industry. EM: When I left the industry, I was down here, and I put on my resume looking for a job, that I was the vice-president of my local; I negotiated a contract; I spoke in front of Congress. And my phone never rang. And finally, a union insurance company called me and they liked that I had a labor background. And I got hired by American Income Life Insurance Company that basically deals with groups. And they started working just with unions. And now they work with credit unions and associations. And when I went to my first labor council meeting, they said this is a right-towork state, and I said, "What's that?" And when they told me, I said, "But this is the United States of America; how can they do that?" So, it's been a strange thing being in the South. So, anyway, they hired me; worked there for quite a few years. Now I work with the electrical workers [IBEW776]. And I'm also the President of the State Labor Council. And I still do some side work for American Income. JP: So, you're actually taking that business administration degree that you started, or you - I am assuming you finished your degree - that you actually were originally planning on doing. Was this - what you're doing now, was that your passion that you had back then prior to being a flight attendant? EM: Oh, no, once we got in the union, I thought it would be really nice if �Erin McKee 31 somebody did the work for me. But that just didn't pan out. And we all have to look at ourselves in the mirror, and I can't expect anybody to do what I won't do, so I somehow have ended up in these leadership positions. JP: What is your being in this leadership position - what does that entail, as far as the things that you need to do for people, or people you need to meet? EM: Well, working with different coalitions, of course trying to get all the unions to know each other and help each other, and understand what solidarity is all about; dealing with legislation that is good for working people; being active in the community; those are kind of some of the things that we do. JP: Now I can imagine that being a flight attendant, you've met probably hundreds of thousands of people, not necessarily on a one-on-one basis, but I'm sure some of them would go, "Oh, my gosh, that was the flight attendant when I was on the flight from here to here." Has that profession had any benefit now as far as your current profession? Have you ever ran into somebody that you were a flight attendant for? EM: Not really. But you know, even though the company closed years ago, we have a Tower Air Facebook, and we all communicate with each other, and there are some people that still want to fly, so the ones that are still flying let people know when they're hiring. And of course, doing the work of the union up there kind of prepared me for being down here. JP: How would you say that being a flight attendant gave you the skill set that you needed to be proficient at your job now? EM: Well, when you live in one area your whole life, you don't - and I see this with a lot of people. They don't have an understanding of what other people's lives are �Erin McKee 32 like, and they don't understand that some people really - to me, what it made me see is I think the biggest entitlement that most people have is the family they're born into - there are exceptions to every rule. But if you are born into a very poor country, you're probably statistically speaking going to live a very poor life. I think it made me have more compassion for other people. I mean as they said, I've been in homes that are tiny little huts in Africa. In the Fiji Islands, when he took me to his house for dinner, their kitchen was outside in another building. Their toilet was somewhere else. I mean we take so many things for granted in this country and in this area. So, it made me really see that there's a whole big world out there, and everybody is not like me. JP: What would you say that your biggest - well, obviously that was a very big take-away. Would you say that's the biggest take-away that you have from your career as a flight attendant? EM: That, and seeing so much beauty, and seeing all the things that you read about in history books. JP: That's definitely - I can't attest to your experience, but I feel like seeing it in a textbook is just two completely different experiences. As far as like let's go into that a little bit more. Anything that you saw in a textbook, let's say when you were younger before you were a flight attendant and said, "I really want to see that," did you ever get to see something that you always dreamt about seeing? EM: The Acropolis, Notre Dame, I think those were probably two of them. JP: What was your mindset when you were at these places? EM: Wow. I mean it's just amazing. �Erin McKee 33 JP: Yeah, definitely makes the world seem a lot smaller. Does the world seem smaller since you've been well, all over it obviously? EM: Oh, yeah. And I'll tell you something else. I didn't go to Europe the first time when I was a flight attendant. When I was nineteen or twenty years old, I wanted to go to Europe, and I had a - my best friend - and I said, "Let's go for the summer, and we'll just get an open-ended ticket for the return." And she had started dating some guy, and she said, "No, I'm not going to do that." She said, "I'll go for one month, but we're getting a return ticket." So, we started out in Amsterdam, and we went to Brussels and Germany, and Rome, and then over to Venice. And we took the boat down to Athens. And then we went back to Zurich, where we came home. She married the same man. She's still married to him today, so I forgive her for making our trip short. In growing up, my parents took us cross-country, and to Puerto Rico and Florida and stuff. So, my father always loved history, and he loved experiencing travel. So, I'm thankful that he kind of pushed me into it. JP: Now, are you going - with the experiences you've had, and you've obviously had a very long and fulfilling career in this particular career field - are you going to try to push your children in that direction, so that they can kind of share a similar experience with you? EM: My son graduated from Academic Magnet last year, and about five days later he was on a plane going over to Europe, where he stayed for about two weeks. JP: Okay, so what is your son doing now? EM: College, Charleston. �Erin McKee 34 JP: Okay, so does he have any desire to follow in your footsteps and get into aviation or flight attending? EM: No. No. This year it's economics. Last year it was arts management, and I said what's that? But now he's saying economics. JP: So, it's just you and your son, correct? EM: Mm-hmm. JP: Okay. MV: Do you have any kind of final bits of wisdom for us? Are there any questions that - maybe something you touched upon that you wanted to elaborate on, or maybe a question we didn't ask that's very important to your life and experiences? EM: I would just say to all of you, travel if you have the opportunity. And remember that everybody is not like you, and that I would say that most of us sitting in this room have been very fortunate, and that other people are not as fortunate as we are, and remember that. You see a lot when you travel. I will also tell you one other story that you didn't ask. I had a trip to Rio. And I think we went New York - Chicago, Chicago - New York, New York Miami, Miami - Rio. Tons of delays, but we had met some people on the airplane, and we were all going to meet at Copacabana. So, we shower and we go downstairs, and we asked the concierge how to get to Copacabana. So, he tells us t to go across the street and take a public bus. Well, there was a hotel bus that took you, but he didn't tell us that. So, we get on the bus. And I knew how dangerous it was, so I had five dollars in this pocket. And I had suntan lotion in this pocket. And actually, I shouldn't even say that. It wasn't in my pocket. It was with a safety pin to my underwear. And no jewelry, and we're sitting �Erin McKee 35 on the bus, and I felt a hand in my pocket where the suntan lotion was. Now I don't care if anybody takes my suntan lotion, but my reaction was someone putting their hand in my pocket was to swing. So, I did. And I got up and started fighting with this kid who looked probably about twelve years old. And then the friend I was with said, "Erin, turn around and look at the front of the bus." And there's another kid who was probably about fifteen or sixteen, and he's robbing everybody at gunpoint; and sees the two of us fighting, and comes back and says, "You are dead, lady," and smashes me over the head with the gun. And I had hair probably down to about here. And you know, your head bleeds. But the bus driver just stopped the bus and let them get off. I guess that happens all the time in Rio. So, my friend said, "Do you want to go to the police station or a hospital?" I said, "Is it deep or is it just bleeding a lot?" She said, "It's just bleeding a lot." I said, "Well, then I'd like to go to Copacabana and meet our friends like we planned on it. Otherwise, I might get really upset." So, we went and we drank our caipirinhas, and we got back to the hotel. And of course, she called the lead flight attendant. And then they made me go to a military hospital. And I got lecture on never taking public transportation in Rio again. So, that was pretty interesting. JP: Wow. Thank you so much. MV: Thank you very much for taking out the time. EM: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And be nice to the flight attendants when you're on the airplane. It's not easy. JP: Absolutely. EM: And bring your own food. End of recording. �Erin McKee Edited ML2/15/16 36 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Pino Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Erin Mckee Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 5 minutes Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of Erin McKee, interviewed by Jason Pino, 14 November, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Flight attendants Labor unions Labor movement--South Carolina--Charleston Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Description An account of the resource Erin McKee was born in Brooklyn, New York. Right after college, Mckee started her career as a flight attendant with National Airlines. When this company went bankrupt she joined Tower Air. In this interview, Mckee recalls some of the most dangerous, most difficult, and most satisfying moments she experienced working on international flights. In the ‘80s when she started working with the airline industry, flight attendants were expected to look attractive, they have to be slim, have their nails done, and their her hair up. It took time and work to change the requirements for applicants to meet the real focus of the position ‘the main reason that a flight attendant is on the airplane is if there's an emergency, to get you out of that airplane safely. It's not to look good. It's not to serve you meals really. You're there by law, federal regulations, to get people out of a plane in a certain amount of time if there's an emergency." At the end of '80s early '90s McKee and her coworkers organized a union to demand better regulations regarding the scheduling and number of hours they were forced to work. She became the secretary/treasurer of her union and was part of the negotiating committee. Because of her experience, she went to Washington, D. C. to testify before a legislative subcommittee about duty time legislation. Mckee moved to Charleston in 1996 and around 1998 Tower Air closed and she was out of work. She thought that her vast experience with unions would help her to find a job quickly but her background was not seen as an asset in a right to work state. She finally started working with American Income Life Insurance and then with Electrical Workers' Building Trades Local IBEW776. In 2013 she became the President of the State Labor Council (AFL- CIO). <br />This interview is a part of the COHP's "Working Charleston" series. Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives &amp; Museum.<br /><br /><h3><strong><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:93886" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></strong></h3> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/152 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/f404585b8d4ed971a84991d7b1a4a885.pdf?Expires=1789603200&Signature=Llor0IL7puYj-yirq0hZmLDTJ%7EGH8uxy-ilUP--CH6DPPIQiuEOVsrQMpah0-qooOyGWRYYtclAEFS9SaJ0shfmAbikotyEh8MzfdHvE0v0fYlF2YWlgXHe2znVw7JP3Qxufxp0kGmZvfL9nC1s1Zi90Mk90f6Gt0AWXrHxxkE59PyLZW0tD3h1xZO30BDBCIiQL8PR-qF9eVgLkPN6UN1DaPsHBKPotcFhsoTkmOVgAFSLgmX0pFVpnIcPIEjiCz5TM6vkFOiVehwfB35u2Quq8SrghhaiznAd7cpCHUsNkRnB7gtyEFRVaOiiMuDRUX6txNvrqDhN5okbhG8cb2Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 19af4bdb12c2238f38c133a847a9e4a2 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT - CAROL TEMPEL Interviewee: CAROL TEMPEL Interviewer: JORDAN HARDEE Interview Date: November 19, 2015 Location: Charleston, South Carolina Length: 75 minutes JORDAN HARDEE: All right, this is Jordan Hardee here with Miss Carol Tempel CAROL TEMPEL: Dr. Carol Tempel. JH: Dr. Carol Tempel. Excuse me. And we are here in Charleston, and it's in November of 2015. All right. So, let's get started with your life history. CT: Okay. JH: So, according to my research, you were born in Chicago, Illinois in the early 1940s. So, what was it like growing up in Chicago, such a cosmopolitan place, in [00:00:27 unintelligible] post-WWII, kind of Cold War containment culture? What are your memories? CT: Oh, well, I mean, one of my first memories is I probably was, you know, three or four years old. I remember my mother's ration book for sugar. So, I remember us going to the store. I lived right in the city of Chicago. We lived at 35th and Damen. And so, you know, I was young. I don't remember much about that. But I do remember about the civil-rights movement, because my highschool class in 1955, we were the first high school or first class at Lindblom High School to integrate. And we had eleven African-American students there, several of whom �CAROL TEMPEL 2 became really good friends. And we, you know, we were the class that, you know, started to get to know each other as people, because prior to that, my neighborhood was just all white. And so, the integration of the school was the first experience with that. JH: So, when you speak about integration, it makes me think about the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. Since you were in high school, were you very aware of that at that time, or just you weren't really aware or cognizant of the news? CT: No, I mean, I was aware and I was aware that we would be the first class and we had - I can't say I had any pre-conceived notions about it. Yet, as the school started to integrate and as more African-Americans were coming up North for jobs, there was a push on the neighborhoods. And so, I can remember, you know, our parents and neighbors talking about the red line, you know, how African-Americans were moving into houses and there was this panic of selling houses because of your property going down. And then, I can remember people saying, "We love our homes. We don't have to succumb to that." So, it seemed to stop after a while. There wasn't that, you know, panic. But I can tell you that I was friends with some of my African-American classmates and one particular time, I was invited to a birthday party and my parents talked with the boy's parents and they agreed that, you know, that I could go. But then at the last minute, his parents felt that they - that I wouldn't be safe and so I didn't go to the party. So, those were just, you know, some memories. Since, I've connected back with one of my classmates, Carl Boyd, who also followed the path of education and has done a lot with the achievement gap and that kind of thing. JH: Well, let's dial back a little bit to your family life. And what memories do you have of your parents' marriage and also their roles? Did your mother - did she work in the �CAROL TEMPEL 3 home? Did she work outside the home? CT: Well, my mother worked in the home until I was probably ten. And then she went to work for several years. And then, my sister was really uncomfortable with my mother working, so then she stepped out of the workforce and didn't really go back into the workforce until after, you know, into her late fifties and then worked until she retired. She worked as a young girl in a pillow factory. She was making twentyfive cents an hour, and I think this sort of speaks to my mom's energy about, you know, what are women's rights. And she found out that she could get a job at Montgomery Ward for a higher salary and she talks about her mother being, you know, very resistant about her losing a job and fooling around trying to get something better. But my mother said, no, she was going to go after that job. So, you know, she had a spirit about her. JH: Did your father agree with her working outside the home, or did she have to, because you said your sister kind of was uncomfortable with it. CT: My father was comfortable with it and my father was actually someone who really advocated for me as a young woman, as a woman, because the company that he worked for, Danly Machine, had a practice of hiring young men who were going to go to college during the summer. They would hire them during the summer. And so, when I got to be sixteen and I was trained as a secretary - I mean, I have typing and shorthand skills, because that was the back-up situation for me. That's another story. But anyway, he went to the human-resource people and he said, "You know, my daughter is going to go to college and she needs a job, too, and it would only be fair if we started hiring women." So, then, I was hired, and I worked from the time I was sixteen until I was twenty-two, summers, all those summers. So, I was able to earn �CAROL TEMPEL 4 quite a bit of money to - I figure I was probably about half of my college costs through that summer job. Well, college wasn't that expensive then. JH: That would be nice. So, you would describe your parents' marriage maybe as like egalitarian, you would think, like it was equal? CT: Oh, yes, yes, definitely. And my parents' marriage is interesting from this perspective. My dad was Roman Catholic and my mother was Missouri Synod Lutheran and they met each other when they were sixteen. My dad was also Polish and my mother was from German-Czechoslovakian descent. And if you were living in Chicago at that time, you would be quite aware of the differences between ethnic groups. There was a lot of, in Chicago at that time, people really lived in their ethnic groups. And my parents, their family homes were only two blocks away, but my mother's parents were very upset that she was dating and eventually married a Polish person. JH: Were they first-generation over here? CT: Yes. Yeah. And so, what eventually happened was because there was just this unacceptance from my mother's family, my parents eloped when her parents were out of town. So, I think that speaks to their, you know, character. But it was those, I think those experiences are really the thing that helped me understand what the civil-rights movement was all about, what discrimination was all about, what prejudice was all about, because it was unfounded on knowing people as people. There were these preconceived notions about, you know, who people were and what they did and so on. JH: So, what would you say that your family's politics were, your parents' politics? CT: I would say my dad was a Democrat and my mother was a Republican. Her �CAROL TEMPEL 5 parents were involved in politics; my dads', not so much. But, yeah, so, we had that. I don't really know - I don't know how they voted when I was young. My parents were always - if there was, you know, when Eisenhower came through the city, you know, we went to the parade. I remember my dad, we were at a football game and President Truman was there and my dad took me up to, you know, meet President Truman. JH: Wow! CT: So, anyway, you know, I have those memories. JH: That's fantastic. So, according to my research, you went to Augustana. Am I pronouncing that correctly? CT: Augustana. JH: Augustana College in Illinois, and this was between 1960-1963? CT: '59 to '63. JH: And you majored in Biology? CT: And Secondary Education. JH: And Secondary Education. So, what memories do you have in college, of being in college at this era, what's still considered not a traditional route for a woman to go. I mean, you mentioned previously that your backup plan was to be a secretary, so I'm just interested in how maybe your gender affected your experience in college or you don't think that it did. CT: Oh, no, it did. My gender definitely affected my experience. I was just one of maybe two of us who followed getting - and I might be wrong on this, but this is my perception of it, that there were only two of us who were really in the sciences. And I can remember being counseled, "Oh, you should pursue teaching." It was never suggested, �CAROL TEMPEL 6 because I was taking the same courses as pre-med students, that maybe I should pursue thinking about medicine. When I was a young girl, I had thought about nursing. And then I gave that up, because I didn't really - I didn't understand the full realm of nursing. When I thought about it just being bedpans, I was like, "No, I don't want to do that!" And then, when I was sixteen and my biology course - by about twelve years old, I knew I wanted to be a teacher, because I had been doing a lot of teaching in Sunday School. And, you know, assistant teaching in Sunday School. And, so, I pretty much knew I wanted to be a teacher, but I didn't know what I wanted to teach, until I took my biology course. And then I decided at sixteen I was going to be a biology teacher. So, I was pretty intent on that and made sure I had all my college requirements, but my parents were very insistent on me having a backup career skill set. So, and I was very good at it. So, yeah, in college, you know, that kind of was my experience. I mean, I felt like my professors were fair with me, but it was a struggle. There was only, you know, my friend Kathy and I were the ones who could study together, because in college, you know, the boys were on one side of the campus, the girls on the other. So, there wasn't much, you know, study time together, so Kathy and I were really, you know, we talked about that. We hadn't seen each other for almost fifty years and we were at a class reunion and we since have seen each other a few times since then. But we were study buddies. This might go - this might be another question, but I do want to talk about this in terms of discrimination. I had been teaching my first year in Los Angeles. And I was twenty-one years old. I was in San Pedro High School, a very diverse school, but the �CAROL TEMPEL 7 faculty was very old. And I went out there all by myself and I didn't know anybody and I decided it was very lonesome. So, I decided that maybe I should just come back to the Chicago area. So, I had two friends who were teaching at Reavis High School. One was in English and one was in Social Studies. And they let me know that there was a job in Biology. So, I contacted the superintendent and submitted my application. And in the conversation I had with him, he said that, you know, everything looked really good and my recommendations were good, but they wanted to hire a man. And I said - this would have been '66. This is right after - no, '65. This would have been - wait. This would have been '64. So, put that in perspective what was happening nationally. And so, I said, "Well, that's unfair. I should be able to get this job just on my credentials." He said, "Well, we really want a man, because we know they're going to stay longer." And I said, "Well, I'm not even engaged or seriously dating, so, you know, how do you know how long I'm going to stay?" And so, anyway, I didn't - nothing happened. Well, a second position opened up. And so, I was a backup person. So, I taught for a couple of years, you know, leading, fully committed that I was going to have to stay, even though in the back of my head, I wanted to go on to graduate school. And now I had a job. I had the resources. I knew I could go. So, anyway, the young man that was hired before me, he left to go to graduate school, and I said, "Well, hell with that." The next year, I left to go to graduate school. JH: And in grad school, you pursued biology, is that right? CT: Yes. �CAROL TEMPEL 8 JH: Was it a similar atmosphere to undergrad? Were you just a minority? CT: Oh, definitely, definitely, definitely a minority. And I'll tell you two stories, one that's kind of funny. This is how I met my husband. We were both in a neurophysiology class. There were eleven of us, ten men, one woman, me. And the professor had assigned a hundred questions. So, anyway, the next day, or the next time we had class, George said to me, "Carol, the guys and I all met, and we've divided up the questions. We're each going to take two, and I'll make sure that you get questions, or you, you know, you'll get the information." And I said, "Wait a minute. Why didn't you divide this by eleven? You know, I'm thinking, what skin do I have in this game? I don't even really know, George." And I'm not going to trust that I'm going to get the, you know, the questions. So, I thought about it and I thought, I don't really - I really wanted to take this class, but I don't really need this class, so I checked out of that class and I, you know, took some other classes, because I thought, you know, this is really going to be unfair and I'm not going to be beholden to that situation. So, that was funny. And so, then, George and I started dating. We only dated a year, and we got married. So, it was pretty quick, a quick decision. But this was, I think, discrimination. When I had my defense, I didn't do a thesis. I did a few extra classes, because I was going into teaching, so I felt some of the other courses would be better. And I convinced my professors that that would be a good plan for me. So, anyway, but during my defense, I was asked the question, "How does the female reproductive system work, and what were all the hormones involved in that system?" And, you know, after I - I mean, of course I could answer that question, but I �CAROL TEMPEL 9 thought it strange that they didn't ask me about the male system. And then I had asked several of the guys in my class, "Did you get a question like that for you?" And they said, "Well, no." So, I was like, isn't this interesting? It was very interesting. So, yeah, there were - oh, and the other thing is the - one of my major professors said to me, after the defense, he said, "I don't know why you've worked so hard and studied so hard, because you're just going to get married and have a family." And I said, "How do you know that?" So, anyway, I think it was - I mean, it was - so, along the way, you can just see that, you know, women's issues from, you know, my dad having to advocate for me, for me being, you know, a minority in the field of science - of course, it was after '59. It was, you know, Sputnik came about. And then through, even through teaching and through graduate school and then understanding discrimination from all this ethnic stuff that was going on in Chicago, can you understand why I got involved with the Equal Rights Amendment? JH: Yes, ma'am, absolutely. But I did also, before we start talking about that, I wanted to ask, in high school or college or undergrad, were you ever involved and campus community life, in any leadership positions, or any kind of organizations? CT: Well, in high school, I was involved with the girls' athletic program, but not in a major sport, because we didn't have major sports. So, I was a gym leader, you know. That meant that our P.E. classes were pretty big, so it would be the teacher and maybe two of us who were designated to, you know, help during the class demonstrate, you know, referee games kind of thing. Our P.E. classes, of course, were not integrated. And I lettered in high school, but my letter was in biking, hiking, bowling, you know, �CAROL TEMPEL 10 volleyball, that kind of thing. So, you could rack up your points. I mean, there was a path to get a letter for girls, but it wasn't because we were playing baseball or anything like that, not even basketball. JH: Were you all not allowed to play basketball? CT: No, they just didn't have it organized. JH: Just didn't have it there. CT: Yeah, yeah. So, I was active that way, and I'm trying to think. The other thing was, I was involved with my yearbook, and I ended up being the editor of my yearbook the senior year. So, that was pretty much my activity, because my other activities were I was active in my church - it was Lutheran at that time. I'm Unitarian now. But at that time, I was Lutheran, and so, I was very active in the Luther League, the youth program, and had gone, been sent to camp to be a counselor. And then, I was also active in Job's Daughters, which is a branch of the Masonic group. My mother was an Eastern Star, and my grandfather was in the Masons. So, there was this group for girls called Job's Daughters. And so, I was very involved with that. And I know that that was a group where I learned a lot of leadership skills, because I eventually became the equivalent of what was the president. But there was a path to doing that. So, I was pretty involved with that in high school. JH: In hearing your experience and your story, it definitely makes sense that you went this route for fighting for the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment]. But I'm interested in, what was your first experience in campaigning for that, or how did you become interested in that? CT: Well, we had just - George and I had just moved from Kansas City to �CAROL TEMPEL 11 Charleston in '78. And I had previously been a member of the League of Women Voters in Kansas City, and so when we came to Charleston, I joined the League of Women Voters. So, I said at one of the meetings - they were, you know, looking for people to be in charge of projects and portfolios. And I said, "Well, I'd be glad to do education." And they said, "Well, we already have somebody for education. We don't have anyone to head up the Equal Rights Amendment." I said, "Oh, well, I could do that. I mean, I'm interested in that. I'm all for that." That's how that started. So, where it went from there was, if you can imagine this, in '78, women were, especially in the South, were - and I'm coming as a Yankee, okay? All right, so, women in the South were really... they were not into the Equal Rights Amendment as a whole. They had dower rights that they thought they should protect. They were hesitant about men and women using the same bathrooms. They were not in favor of women going into the military. The women in my neighborhood, settled on James Island, they were all homemakers. Most of them did not have education beyond high school. So, coming into my neighborhood and into the community, I was kind of an anomaly, because now here I am. I'm a woman, older woman with two kids, coming from the North, being very liberal, having had experiences where I felt discriminated against, that that was - I was really an anomaly. So, and the other thing is that when I started working with the League of Women Voters, not all of the women were in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment. I mean, they had said, "You know, we know it's a national position, but we don't always go along with all the national positions." So, when I was trying to work to organize an effort, �CAROL TEMPEL 12 because we knew that the legislation was coming forward and we needed to act, I finally reached out to other groups and found the same situation. There were different groups of - women's groups, who had that little advocate or had that advocate for the ERA but not their whole organization. So, we formed a coalition of those organizations, and that's how we then worked in that coalition. It was not - the League was part of it, but it was not the driving force behind it. So, how was this? Okay, well, I'll tell you two stories. One story is about being interviewed on television about the ERA, because there were several articles in the paper, you know, with my picture. But this was a TV interview. So, we were out on the driveway and they were interviewing, you know, what are you doing, why are you doing this kind of thing? And so, that happened. So, you know, I'm out pushing the stroller and, you know, walking with my kids and I remember having a conversation with a couple of the neighbors that were, you know, gathering. And they said, "Oh, hi," you know, and, "Oh, hi," you know. And they said, "Oh, we saw you on TV." And I said, "Oh! Great!" And they said, "You know - " I had red hair then. "Oh, your hair looked so pretty. It just glistened in the sun." And I said, "Well, what do you think about what I was saying." And they said, "Oh, we don't talk politics." So, that was, I think, you know, how you could feel like - you could only imply what your neighbors were thinking. All right, so then here's another story. So, one day I go to get my hair cut and I'm coming out of the beauty salon and I run into one of my other neighbors. These are not the same two women I'm talking about but my other neighbors. And she said, "Oh, hi," you know. "Oh, well, what are you up to today?" And I said, "Oh, I'm going �CAROL TEMPEL 13 downtown." And she said, "Oh, what are you going to do downtown?" And I said, "Well, I'm going to do - I'm meeting with a group of Lutheran pastors today, and we're going to talk about the Equal Rights Amendment." And she said, "Well, where are you going to talk about that?" And I said, "Oh, we're meeting at St. Matthew's downtown." She said, "That's my church! My women's alliance is not for the ERA." And I said, "Well, your ministers are very interested, and I'm looking forward to having that conversation." I was, you know, that was the second story. And then the third story is - involves women in the carpool. When we moved to James Island, the kids were at Stiles Point, and it was - I found a group of women that we found it very hard to volunteer at the school. We found people who were willing to do the air conditioning projects and put up curtains in the cafeteria, that kind of thing. Well, that wasn't me. So, I wanted to do something, you know, more meaty in the school. So, anyways, several of us got together and we decided to form this little volunteer group, but we would be a volunteer group that would assist the teachers. We would help them set up their science equipment or help them grade papers or tutor kids or run off papers on the video - or the machine kind of thing. So, we formed this group. You know, I forgot what I was going to - hold on a minute. Oh, okay, the carpool. So, anyway, so, understand that this was going on, that I had now organized a group of women who were doing work that was quite different from the traditional women doing things. So, anyway, we were trying to form in my neighborhood a carpool, because now several of us were starting to work and it wasn't �CAROL TEMPEL 14 always easy to, you know, get our kids or be home, whatever. But I have to tell you, I got booted out of the carpool, and the reason was because of my work with the ERA. JH: Oh, wow. CT: So, anyway, that was kind of an interesting JH: Were they explicit about that? CT: Oh, yeah, because one of the women, who was - she was a professor at the College of Charleston, she said, "Well, Carol, you and I will carpool," she said. "We can work this out between ourselves." So, I was booted out of the carpool. So, you know, I know that we were - I know when we came to Charleston, I think that was a really rough period. And, I guess, the last story I'll tell you is, confirmed that something was different. You know, we were perceived as being different, because I'm sitting at lunch with soccer moms, and the conversation always started, "And where are you from, Carol?" And I remember, and we're friends now. She doesn't remember that so much, but I remember it. And - hey, Bob! How are you? Good, good! Bob: I worked through the night at the CT: At the Justice Ministry? Yeah. Bob: Everything all right? CT: Yeah, we're doing great. They're interviewing me. Bob: Oh! Excuse me. A great candidate. I don't know what it's about. CT: So, anyway. JH: This will be really funny for the archive. CT: Yeah. So, anyway, we're sitting at the table, and as I said, the conversation �CAROL TEMPEL 15 started, "And where are you from," and my friend sitting next to me said, "Now, we're not going to do that anymore to Carol. She and her husband teach our kids in Sunday School. They volunteer at the school. They coach the soccer team. So, just forget it, you know?" So, because that was the - that was the leading question. And the other leading question was, "Where do you go to church?" Want to hear that story? All right, where-do-you-go-to-church story. I'm glad to be able to tell these stories. JH: Oh, absolutely! CT: And people have said I should write it down, but I don't know how you write these stories down. But, anyway, all right, the go-to-church story is, we, you know, I went to a Lutheran college. So, we're coming, you know, my husband and I met in California. We lived in Bloomington, Indiana. We were in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City. And along the way, he was Episcopalian. He was originally Episcopalian, and I was Lutheran. And when we were living in the South - which I consider Indiana, Bloomington, Indiana, and Columbia, Missouri, the South - we just fell out of line with the traditional churches. And so, we started to go to the Unitarian church. And that was the place where we felt really comfortable. So, when we moved the Charleston, we joined the Unitarian church. So, now the conversation in the neighborhood would be, "And where do you go to church?" So, we would just say, "Oh, we go downtown." So, that seemed to last for a year. And then, somebody said, well, again, you know, same people, "Where do you go to church?" And I said, "Oh, you know - " I talked about my Lutheran background. "Oh, I went to Augustana. Do you know I went to Augustana College, a �CAROL TEMPEL 16 Lutheran college," so I just, you know, just deflected that. So, now the third time we're asked, it's like, finally like, "Where do you go to church downtown?" And we said, "Oh, we go to the Unitarian church," and the response was, "Oh, that heathen church downtown." So, you know, it was interesting. My neighborhood was very interesting. JH: It sounds like it. CT: I finally got over it and finally just, you know, was finding my way. I remember getting really angry one day. My husband came running out thinking I was crazy, because I finally had taken the hoe to the oak tree that had its yellow ribbon around it and I just was banging on it and cussing like every cuss word I had and it was like, oh, okay, I'm over this now, and we're moving forward. JH: So, you definitely feel because of your, not just - or do you think it was your activism in the community that kind of drew a target on your back, or was it your outsiderness? CT: Oh, I think all of it. Oh, I think all of it. You know, George and I were, you know, we were Unitarians. We were Democrats. We were, you know, from the North. We were, you know, highly educated. We were open, you know, to other people. I mean, this is a discriminatory story. When we had moved here and my son was going to have his - I think it was his seventh birthday, and I had a mom call me and say, "I notice that you and your husband talk a lot with black people. Are there going to be any black children at the birthday party, because, if so, we won't be sending my son." So. JH: What did you say? CT: I said, "Well, yes, my son has a couple of black friends, and they've been �CAROL TEMPEL 17 invited. I don't know whether they will be comfortable coming." JH: Did the little boy go? CT: No. JH: I'm just curious. He didn't. CT: No, the little black boys did not come, and this boy did not come, either. But I think that, you know, that has to tell you a lot about what was, you know, going on at that time. So. JH: Do you feel that the most pushback you received for your activism and your outsiderness, was that from other women, or was it from men? CT: It seemed to me like men seemed to understand it but women didn't. All right, here's another story. The yacht club, the James Island Yacht Club. I was asked to go speak about the ERA to them, and so I went. And George and I had been considering joining the yacht club, because it was close to our home and we thought it would be a good, you know, activity for our kids and a good, you know, sense of being in the community. But when I went to the meeting, I found out that if George and I had bought a membership in the group, that if he died, I could not become a member. I could not continue the membership. And I brought that up at the meeting. I thought, well, you know, why is that? And the women said, "Carol, you just don't get it. We don't want those single women around our husbands." So, the women didn't see that as an inequity, either, which I thought was, you know, really interesting. JH: So, what form did your activism take with the ERA? Were you mostly out there giving speeches? Was there ever a protest that you were a part of, a sit-in that you �CAROL TEMPEL 18 remember? CT: Oh, yeah. We were very active. We had phone banks. We had postcards. These were some of the postcards that we did. We made copies, because I don't have these are the ones I have. So, we had postcards. We did writing campaigns. JH: Are these things you all would hand out to people walking around on the street? CT: No, no. We would have meetings of groups, phone banks. We would find an attorney's office that would let us use their phones. We had - at our meetings, we asked, you know, them to write their legislators. So, we did a lot of writing. Along the way, the National Organization for Women had a sense that South Carolina - we were down to three states needing to ratify. And so, South Carolina was a target. And so, the National Organization for Women [NOW] really thought that we had a chance here. So, they sent [00:37:54 Audrey Gazzoni], who was an attorney with NOW. She was from Washington, D.C. And she stayed with George and I for several months. She wasn't there consistently, because she was traveling around the state meeting with, you know, different legislators. I was pretty much tied and my children were young, so I couldn't do that. But speeches, letters to the editor, letters to the legislators, conversations with legislators. I remember a group of us going one time to a bar, because that's where we knew one of the legislators hung out. So, we lobbied him in the bar. So, we went to legislators' offices to, you know, lobby them. So, that was our activity. Now, the protest I remember. I don't remember organizing any walks or things like that. We were pretty much working in the legislative-writing mode. �CAROL TEMPEL 19 But we did have - there was a hearing in South Carolina, the Legislature. So, I remember a huge group of us going up to the Legislature, and I'll never forget this. We were walking to go up the steps, and all of a sudden [00:39:24 Martha Canapo] said, "Lock arms!" And I'm like, "What do you mean, 'lock arms?'" We were all dressed in green, or some kind of green. She said, "Lock arms!" She said, "Look who's behind us." And there were all these women with these, you know, red signs, "Stop the ERA" kind of thing. And she said, "We've got to get up these steps and to the Senate chamber before they do." So, we did, and we were like in the front row of the chamber doors, you know, locking our arms, you know, listening to the testimony, nodding, whatever. The funniest thing was, we had - there was a state coalition of ERA, so people came from all over for this hearing and the state group had organized them, a woman to play the role. It was Susan B. Anthony. So, she came in dressed. I don't know if you heard this story. JH: I've never heard this. CT: And one of the senators - I don't know, remember who it is, but maybe it's the literature somewhere - said, he was speaking and he said, we overheard him say, "I thought she was dead!" So, that was funny. But, anyway, you know, it didn't pass. We felt like we - it was going to pass. And this was interesting, because the Legislature had always ended their session early, or had always extended their - I didn't say that right, had always extended their sessions. But that year, they cut it short, because we think we had the votes. I mean, Audrey feels like we had, based on it, we had the votes. So, anyway, it was disappointing to, you know, to lose it, because we were down to, you know, the three necessary states, and then the time ran out. So, as it is, '82. �CAROL TEMPEL 20 So, from '78 to '82, that's where I was kind of involved with it. JH: And it's interesting to me, just in researching about your life, finding out that it still hasn't passed. CT: No, no. JH: And I feel silly in my ignorance, because we think that this is something that was taken care of, you know, decades ago, but it's still not. CT: No, there's still a big pay gap. And it's still interesting when women - I had a conversation with women not too long ago about the pay gap, and she said, "I'm really don't think there is that pay gap. I think that it doesn't really exist." And I'm like, I said, "You remember - " I'm State President for the American Association of University Women. And I said, "Look at this study that we've put out here. This pay gap exists." And I think it's less in agencies that publish their salaries, because people know, but I can tell. I'm in a women's group that formed - I guess we've been meeting almost thirty years now, and that group formed. It was formed with women from the Medical University and the College of Charleston who were very upset about their salaries. And that's how I met them. They were meeting as just a, you know, a support group, and they asked me to come speak about the Equal Rights Amendment. And that was their concern. They were very concerned that their pay as professors with similar qualifications, these were women who were in the sciences. But one was, you know, in the arts and a German professor, but the women at the Medical University were very concerned about their salaries, because they weren't the same for the same job. And then during also this period, kind of pre the Women's Center, we had �CAROL TEMPEL 21 meetings down at the Blalock House at the College of Charleston. We would meet once a month. It was a networking group, and, you know, there would be one hundred, two hundred women who would gather there. And that was a group that, you know, we used to advocate for the ERA. I mean, that was another group where we passed out cards and, you know, got women to participate. And I know it was hard for me, because it was like that five thirty time and, you know, so my husband would have to fix supper for the little ones and I would go down and we would meet. But that group stayed together for a long time. It was a way for women who were professionals to network with each other, because that didn't happen. And so, that was also started by some women at the - between the College of Charleston and the Medical University. JH: What do you remember specifically about the day that the news broke that it didn't pass? Do you remember going home and maybe your neighbors, were they all elated? CT: I don't remember much. I don't really remember much. No. I mean, nobody I mean, as a group, we were, of course, you know, disappointed, and we knew, I think, that, I mean, the struggle was so hard in South Carolina. It was we had a lot of support. I have, you know, a whole list of people we called. We knew who the supporters were. We had women who would give us money, you know, so we could print these postcards, because it cost money. I mean, I was only able to get like twenty-five dollars from the League of Women, you know. I remember buying rolls of stamps, you know, so we could do this kind of work. But we had women in the community who would slip us money and, you �CAROL TEMPEL 22 know, say, "I just - I can't be associated with this, but I'm with you," kind of thing. JH: That's interesting. CT: So, they - we had a lot of closet supporters. It was hard, because if they had stepped forward and then more visible, it would have helped. It didn't help, but they didn't feel, for whatever reasons. But, you know, you take it on the chin, because I had applied, then, for a job at a school. I don't feel comfortable naming the school, but it was a private school. And I was slated to be hired to direct their science program and - funny was interviewing with the department chairman in the lounge. And one of the women, who was a member of the League, came in and said, "Oh, Carol! What are you doing here today?" And I said, "Oh, I'm interviewing for this, you know, position. I'm looking forward to having a chance to work here." And she said, "Well, we need you. We need equal rights around here." Well, guess who didn't get the job? JH: Oh. CT: And people came back to me several years later and said, "You know, you were just too active in the Equal Rights movement." And the department chair had just recently been divorced and he was pretty bitter about that divorce, so, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's what - I mean, I didn't get the job. That conversation occurred. You know, I could tell that after the woman had made that statement that the conversation between me and the department chairperson, you know, changed, and I ultimately didn't get the job. But ultimately, people came back and said, you know, it was JH: Because of that. CT: Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I have felt discrimination along the way. And when �CAROL TEMPEL 23 you feel it, you know what it's like and you know that it's wrong and you know that you have to - you just have to stand up to it. Otherwise, it keeps going on and on. And thankfully, so many have. You know, Charleston is a different place. I mean, we have now the Charleston Area Justice Ministry, which is a coalition of twenty churches, and, you know, they just voted the other night to take on - to come up with some way to address racial discrimination. And so, I think that says a lot for Charleston and the time that we're talking about, from my entry, '78, to where we are now, 2015. That's huge. That's huge. JH: I'm interested in this notion of closet supporters. These women that were closet supporters, would you say they were your stereotypical Southern housewife, or were they outsiders like Yankees? CT: No, I think they were Southern women who had status in the community. You know, they would have been people, maybe - I don't want to name organizations, but - wait, this is buzzing. Oh. I can get back with her. It's the Mayor of Folly Beach's wife. Anyway, they seemed to be women, some of them living below Broad, kind of this upper-echelon status, you know. Their husbands were, you know, probably doctors, lawyers. You know, they had status in the community, economic status, wealth status, business status. So, they just didn't feel they could, you know, come out, which sometimes - it often surprised me, because sometimes in talking with their husbands, they were like, yeah, we get it, you know? But the women seemed, you know, they were not used to this kind of activism. You know, they were white women who were just not, you know, for it. And I can't say much about the African-American community. I mean, I �CAROL TEMPEL 24 knew Septima Clark and I knew her on the level of what we were doing for education, because I was also involved through the League with the education piece that I did was oh, the schools were atrocious here! Do you want to hear a story about that? JH: Absolutely! Yes. CT: Okay. So, we come to the - my husband takes a job at the Medical University, and they have the medical wives' group. And so, one of the first - and I had always been involved with, you know, some leadership position when we were at Indiana University. So, I thought, well, okay, I'll join the women's group here. So, they had a - we were all at the closure of this meeting and we're all in a circle and we're like, "Well, you know, let's help our new members know how they can be active in the community," because they really encouraged that with hospital help and everything. So, people are going around, and some of the women were talking about working down at the historic homes, changing the drapery with the seasons, polishing the silver, you know, setting the tables with the, you know, the seasonal china and everything. And I'm getting green with this. So, when they get to me in the circle, I asked the question, "Well, can you all tell me anything that anyone is doing about, you know, education in the community and the poverty that I see," because, I mean, the poverty I saw here was - struck me more than the poverty I saw in Los Angeles or Chicago or Kansas City. It just struck - I don't know why it struck me. I think it was such a beautiful place, and yet there was this extreme poverty. And these schools looked like they never intended the schools to educate kids. They were the worst buildings I had ever seen. They were non-functional. They were not clean. They were just made out of, you �CAROL TEMPEL 25 know, cement blocks. So, anyway, so, I asked the question, who was, you know, working on education or poverty? And several people said, "Well, we just send our kids to private schools. We're not into the public schools." So, I came home that night and I said, "You know, George, I have supported you in your career all along the way," but I said, "I am never going back to that group, because I just - I'm not going to be able to relate to people who think that way." That was it. So, what we did, then, with the League, was because the buildings were they were terrible, is we organized - I helped organization go-see tours, and we got busloads of people to go around to see how it gap and to see some of the schools on James Island and the schools downtown. And we began to raise a consciousness among a very prestigious, intelligent group of women that something needed to be done about education and the facilities. So, then I got involved in a different way in '82. We had constituent school boards, so in '82, I ran as a write-in candidate for the School Board, the constituent - James Island Constituent School Board, and I got more votes than anybody who was on the ballot. JH: Wow! CT: So, anyway, so, then I served as chair from '82 to '88. In '88, I got a job at the school district. So. JH: What are some of the notable accomplishments that you remember from your tenure on that board? CT: Well, we were involved with rezoning the schools, because the schools here �CAROL TEMPEL 26 were not well-integrated. And the zoning was just off. It just didn't make any sense. So, we were involved with that. We were involved with helping the - there were two high schools. So, we worked to help those two faculties, you know, set the tone for - those two faculties needed to get together, you know, work together, that they not need be turf issues. So, we worked on, you know, how do you do that? How do you build these relationships? It's all about relationships. The other thing that we did was we instituted having conversations with students and teachers and principals. Once a month, we took some mix of a group to lunch. So, we had that conversation. But we also, when we were looking at the discipline hearings, we started to look at the kids who were being expelled or suspended. And for the most part, they were overaged students who were in middle school. So, our board worked really hard with the other boards and the superintendent and we instituted - we got them to finally institute what we call the HS8 program and it meant that the overaged students from middle school could go to high school - could go to a high-school program. It was an eighth-grade program, and if they were strong in certain areas, they could start to take some of their high-school classes but get the remediation that they needed. So, I think that was a huge accomplishment. And that continued for a long time and eventually there was a middleschool program that started, too, because there were overage middle-school kids still in elementary and they needed to move on. It was just not age - we were not delivering ageappropriate education in a respectful, you know, climate. And it came to me, because my boys were four years apart, and I thought, you know, how they get along. No wonder these, you know, kids are acting out. I mean, �CAROL TEMPEL 27 your high-school, middle-school kids can drive you nuts. JH: That's for sure! So, you mentioned your children, and I really wanted to ask you a question about that. Do you ever feel that your role as a wife and a mother ever came in conflict with your activism, or do you feel like those things fit together? CT: Well, yeah, I mean, I think they fit together. I mean, I was - I had my own career prior to having children, because I was thirty when I had my older son, Michael, and thirty five when I had Aaron. So, I had my career prior to them and all of my education. And then, I was able to stay home with them, but I balanced. Like, when Michael was - I think he was two, I was teaching part-time high-school in Columbia, Missouri. So, I taught in the morning and picked him up from day school and graded my papers while he took his nap and then we had home time. So, that, you know, that was a balancing act. And then when we moved to Kansas City, I had a little part-time job at a private school that had just gotten some new science equipment, and so I taught the fourth- and fifth-grade glasses on Friday, but then I taught the teachers how to use those instructional materials. So, that was kind of part-time. And then when we came to Charleston, that was hard. The salaries were so poor. I mean, it was like - you'd make twenty-five dollars a day substituting, and the daycare was fifteen dollars, and it was the daycare, in '78 through those early years, was just somebody's home turning on the TV. I mean, there was no Linda O'Quinn at that time. Came into play soon after that, but there was just really nothing of quality. So, then, you know, then I started my own business, because it was really hard to get a job. It was like I was a biologist and I was wanting to teach middle school or �CAROL TEMPEL 28 high school Biology or Life science, and those are plumb jobs, you know. They don't open up. So, you know, they would be like, "Well, you know, can you teach Physical Science," or, "Can you teach this or that?" And it's like, no, I'm not qualified to do that. I don't want to do that. That's not who I am or what I want to do. So, salaries were low, the job opportunities were not really frequently available. I applied - the thing I was really working on was to be a curriculum specialist for science. That was, ultimately, when we came to Charleston, that was where I wanted to be. And, again, not having taught in Charleston, it was the good-ol'-boy system was in place. And so, you know, without having taught, I wasn't going to get hired for that. So, I did several things. One, I started my own business, which was herb and spice sales in the market. That's a whole 'nother story how that evolved. But I did that. And then in '82, I partnered with [01:00:27 Jackie Boyd], who had been on our ERA steering committee. She had just graduated from college and wanted to start a business, and I said, "I have a business." So, we opened In Good Taste, which is a gourmet food store, and we had, you know, wine, cheeses, cooking classes, events, catering, I mean, you name it, we did it. And I left that business in '88. Jackie managed it until, really, she kept the business going. It lasted 25 years until she just retired last year. So, it was a, you know, when we came to Charleston, you couldn't buy a coffee bean or a tortilla or, you know, nobody knew what brie was or buffalo mozzarella. JH: Oh, wow! That will bring in some food culture. CT: Yeah. So, it was very exciting to be in that business. And so, through that, you know, through being on the School Board and then through the business, I, you know, I just met tons of people in the community. And then, finally, in '88, you know, �CAROL TEMPEL 29 things were opening up in Charleston. We had, you know, now we had a superintendent who wasn't from here. We had [01:01:41 David Sklars], who came from Boston. And so, the position for the curriculum specialist for science opened up in '88, and I interviewed and they hired me on the spot. So, then, that was really the start of my career with the School District. JH: So, I also researched that you pursued and obtained the Ph.D. in Educational Learning. CT: And Ed.D. JH: An Ed.D. CT: It's in Educational Leadership. JH: Leadership. CT: Yeah. JH: What inspired you to do that? CT: Oh, I always wanted to do that. In fact, I had been working on a doctorate program when we were in Kansas City, and then when we came to Charleston, the only option for a degree was to go up to USC, and that was just, I mean, driving, you know, three or four times a week was just impractical. So, that was on hold. And then, you know, then I was raising my children and then I had the business. You know, the primary financial goal was to get the boys through college without loans. So, finally when I got it, Aaron had started college, and I said, "Well, now it's time for me." JH: To do your thing. CT: Yeah. JH: Well, just in some concluding questions, what's, in your opinion, would you �CAROL TEMPEL 30 consider your crowning achievement in activism or as a mother or in your career? What do you look back on and think that that was your crowning achievement? CT: Well, I think the crowning achievement - I mean, of course, I have two great sons and four wonderful grandkids and a terrific husband, so I think my family life is just, you know, is just, I mean, a wonderful part of my life. So, I don't want to overshadow that. But I think if I look at a contribution, you know, that time at the Medical University when I saw the poverty that was in this community and what the schools were like, I felt like - and I love science and I knew that - I knew in my heart of heart that, you know, it was good for people to read, but they were not going to get a job if they did not the skills in math and science and technology. So, when I worked in the school district, I worked really hard with educating teachers, a lot of professional development of teachers to know how to teach science, because I know that as a little girl growing up, I did not. I had no image of myself as being a scientist. I mean, I thought that was for boys. And I really didn't have the confidence to think about science until one of my high-school teachers said, "You know, you're really good in science. You should think about that." So, I knew it was really important for future jobs. You know, if you're trying to get out of poverty, you have to have good jobs. You can't just be working in, you know, these fast-food places. So, I worked really hard to educate teachers, and especially elementary and middle-school teachers, how to teach science. And I think my crowning achievement is that I was able to get a five million dollars National Science Foundation grant, and we were able to promote the �CAROL TEMPEL 31 teaching of science, but we were able to establish a Science Material Resource Center so that now all those supplies that teachers need to teach science come to their classroom. They don't have to use their personal funds to go buy, you know, whatever it is at the store in order for the kids to have science, because, to me, that was the great equalizer, that every student could have - could learn science, hands-on science in their classrooms, because their teachers, one, had the knowledge to teach it, they had the materials to have it. So, I'm really proud of that. JH: Wow! When was this? CT: That was in - well, the grant was from 2000-2007, but we started the Material Resource Center in '98. It was just about the same time that I was getting my degree. I mean, it was all together. My degree in Education was about studying the achievement gap, and my project for my thesis was helping teachers look at their teaching practices in terms of whether their teaching practices enhanced the learning of boys, girls, AfricanAmericans. So, we were looking at the achievement gap So, I think, you know, I think that period of work that I did, you know, with the teachers was really important. JH: That is fantastic. So, I'm interested also in, who would you consider your biggest role model in life, whether it was when you were little, because you said you thought scientists were for boys, but you later on went and pursued advanced degrees in science. So, who did you really look to, whether it was a man or a woman? CT: I think it was more about - I don't think I can pin it to any one person. I think of all the encouragers along the way, you know, from my eighth-grade vice principal calling my parents in and saying, "You know, Carol is smart enough to go to college," and my dad saying, "Well, if she is, we have to start saving money, Ed," you know? And �CAROL TEMPEL 32 Dad saying, "Well, you're going to get a job at sixteen; because this isn't going to happen without you earning some money." So, I think that my parents, you know, they didn't restrict me. They encouraged me. Teachers along the way encouraged. They - I always say that - I'm going to choke up about this - that my teachers saw things in me that I didn't see in myself. JH: Oh, wow, you're - So, you would say it took a village of strong people encouraging you. CT: Oh, yeah, definitely. And that's, you know, that's what I always have said to teachers. I've said, "You will see things in your students that they will not see in themselves. And that's what your role as a teacher is, is to - " This is embarrassing. JH: Oh, no. It's your passion. CT: "And that's your role, is to see in them what they don't see in themselves and bring it out in them." JH: Wow. And this is also kind of an aside, but I'm also interested in being a teacher one day, and I completely agree with what you're saying. CT: Yeah. Well, it's a wonderful profession, and I think that, you know, I had a chance to really grow from being a teacher to being a curriculum specialist to advocate, you know, to reach. I always felt that the work I was doing with my students was really important. But the activist part of me said you can't make a difference until you can reach the teachers. So, that was the path I followed. JH: Wow. Just two more questions. CT: Oh, my gosh! JH: Oh, no, you're doing fine. In your own opinion, what would you consider a �CAROL TEMPEL 33 feminist? CT: Oh. JH: Who do you think a feminist is, or what does she look like? CT: I think a feminist is someone who cares about helping others, that she sees that everyone in some way needs a helping hand and that if you discriminate against anyone in any way, you don't have the spirit of what a feminist is. I think you're a woman who is proud of being a woman, that you are interested in helping others, and you especially help - interested in helping young girls be the person that they can be, because it's easy - I think it's better now, but it was easy to be beaten down, to be stereotyped into a role that maybe that wasn't the role you thought you ultimately wanted. So, I see that person as an encourager. JH: So, what would you say, or, who is a Southern woman? What's your perspective on Southern womanhood? I'm particularly interested in your perspective, because you're not native to the state. CT: I don't know. I think I've seen - I'm trying not - I don't want to stereotype, because I don't think that that's helpful, but I think Southern women have been growing and becoming their own person and finding their own voice. You know, I think if a -You know, if a woman only saw herself in terms of her being a wife or a mother, that that's not broad enough. And I think Southern women are - I think they're growing in that aspect. You know, I mean, they're being liberated just as, you know, it sort of follows this kind of path of slavery. I mean, we had that mentality of slavery, the submission. You know, so, I see Southern women as, I think as they grow in their strength, I mean, I think it moves the whole society forward. �CAROL TEMPEL 34 Yeah, so, I think - I mean, I've just seen so many changes since we came. I mean, I think of the women in my neighborhood who, you know, went back to school and sometimes were in my workshops learning how to teach science and then becoming some of the teacher leaders. I mean, I just see that they are evolving as our society opens up and opportunity is there and that we're cognizant of what's going on. And I see so many of them, you know, especially now that we're working in the Justice Ministry, that they are stepping out and they are doing significant work for others. I don't know if that's good. JH: Well, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you consider critical to understanding your experience or your life? CT: You asked a lot of good questions. JH: Oh, thank you! You told a lot of amazing stories. CT: So, no, I think that's it. I think I've said enough. JH: Well, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much. CT: You're welcome. So, how does your project evolve now? End of recording. Edited ML 1/19/16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jordan Hardee Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carol Tempel Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 14 minutes Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of Carol Tempel, interviewed by Jordan Hardee, 19 November, 2015 Subject The topic of the resource League of Women Voters of the Charleston Area American Association of University Women Civil rights movement--South Carolina Feminists--United States Equal rights admendments Women--Employment--South Carolina--Charleston Description An account of the resource Carol Tempel was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1941 to first generation Polish and German- Czechoslovakian parents. Her father was a Roman Catholic Democrat and her mother a Missouri Synod Lutheran Republican. She credits her parents' experiences as the foundation for her understanding of civil rights; " I think those experiences are really the thing that helped me understand what the civil-rights movement was all about, what discrimination was all about, what prejudice was all about, because it was founded on knowing people as people." Her father encouraged her to attend college and pursue a career in science even when in 1963 it was an uncommon career choice for a woman. She graduated from Augustana College, majoring in Biology and Secondary Education. Later she pursued a master's degree in Biology and completed her PhD in Educational Leadership. In the interview, Tempel tells about the times when she was denied employment despite her qualifications because of her gender. In 1978, Tempel moved with her husband, George Tempel, and children from Kansas to Charleston. Tempel remembers feeling she was "an anomaly" among the other women. She joined the League of Women Voters and soon was deeply involved in the Equal Rights Movement. She tells about the efforts to reform the legislation in South Carolina, the criticism she received in her own community because of her activism, and finally the frustration when despite all the hard work in 1982 the legislation did not pass. Tempel never stopped working in the community; from ‘82 to ‘88 she served as a chair of the James Island Constituent School Board and was the owner of a small business. In '88, she was hired by Charleston County Schools as curriculum specialist and she worked with the school district in many different capacities until her retirement. She is the president of the American Association of University Women of South Carolina. In the interview, Tempel reflects about the motivations behind her activism, her biggest accomplishments, and what means for her to be a feminist and a southern woman. <br />This interview is part of the COHP's "Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement" series. These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives &amp; Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:93887" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/141 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.)