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our Guide, our Helµer and our Friend ;&#13;
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Despite notable events and then-President Theodore Roosevelt's visit to the exposition in April 1902, the South Carolina Inter-State and West Indian Exposition was a financial failure, with only 674,086 attending.&#13;
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The City of Charleston created its Hampton Park site after the exposition ended, on what was the exposition's eastern grounds. The exposition's bandstand still remains within Hampton Park, although it was moved from its original position. The State of South Carolina acquired the western part of the former exposition site, which served as the new Citadel campus when it relocated there in 1922. &#13;
&#13;
This collection is comprised of official items from the exposition, including a Presidential schedule book, exposition tickets, and photographs.&#13;
&#13;
Source: Edgar, Walter, ed. (2006). South Carolina Encyclopedia. Columbia, South Carolina: University of South Carolina Press. pp. 898–899 </text>
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                    <text>TRANSCRIPT - LILLIAN GREEN
Interviewee: RAYNAULD TURNER
Interviewer: LILLIAN GREEN
Interview Date: NOVEMBER 21, 2016
Location: CHARLESTON, SC
Length: 69 min.
RAYNAULD TURNER: Okay Ms. Green. If you could tell me where and when
were you born?
LILLIAN GREEN: In Charleston. Downtown Charleston.
RT: Mmm.
LG: And in fact, Magazine Street.
RT: Okay.
LG: And the year was 1934.
RT: Amen. Amen. Was it, he’s asking the questions. How was it growing up? I
mean how was life at that time?
LG: Well in the Black community, because I was raised up, end up being raised
up on Short Street. And that’s exactly what it says, Short Street. It runs from Logan back
to. What’s the name of the street? I’m trying to think, downtown. But it’s one block from
Broad Street. In that community we were treated great.
RT: Okay.
LG: Because it was predominantly Black and you had to listen to the Black folks.
It didn’t matter. Mom, Dad, neighbor, whatever. But I had to walk from there which is
like walking from Broad Street to Calhoun Street to go to school.

�Lillian Green

2

RT: Mmm.
LG: So you see that walk. If I left Short Street and turned into Queen Street and
then remember to cross, go across the street, the school that was right there, there was an
elementary school. Because you know those days, White, Black. If I didn’t cross, the
little White kids would call me the N word.
RT: Okay. Mmm.
LG: And there was a policeman in that area and if I stopped, sometimes I ignore
them, I’d make sure, try to get across that street before I’d have to pass them. And he in
turn, sometimes if I’d turn around and say something would call me peckinanny, take his
little club, push, “get away, get away”. And so but my mom taught me really to hate
White people. And these racist policemen. Because my mother said you can’t hate
anybody because, she said, and it get so she wouldn’t use the word hate. We couldn’t use
it in the house.
It was like it was a curse word. She said you can’t. And she told me one day if I
continued when I went up to the altar to take communion that she would come and get
me.
RT: Wow.
LG: Because we said the prayer before, again, love and charity with our neighbor.
Intend to lead a new life. She says so you can’t take that communion if the hate is in your
heart.
RT: Absolutely correct.
LG: So I still felt that way though until later on. She worked for a family and the
wife treated her. I saw the wife treating her like a person.

�Lillian Green

3

RT: Mmm.
LG: You know? And of course she was still the maid, but she was, she treated her
nice. And then when I started at nursing at old Roper, I met a doctor. A Dr. Julian
[0:03:40 Bachsen]. And he was just so nice to the Black patients because of course you
had Black surgical, Black surgery, Black medicine, White surgery. So but on the floors
that Black patients were on, that man was so nice and for a while I was confused. I said
now, he’s White, she’s White. And I learned to - like my mom said there are nice White
people. There are bad White people. There are nice Black people, there are bad. You
have to take them individually.
RT: Okay.
LG: And I learned that as I was about to say, if I walked Logan Street to St.
Phillip, right in front of Logan Street there was Memminger Elementary.
RT: Okay.
LG: I had to pass that.
RT: Mmm. So you’re passing two elementary schools.
LG: Actually three because Beaufain turns into Phillip. The College of Charleston
has a building. I forgot the name of that school. There was another school.
RT: Wow.
LG: On St. Phillip Street closer to Calhoun. And but like I said, it was times then.
But it seemed so odd. And then Buist school, a lot of kids were at Buist school. We had
to split going to school.
RT: Wow.
LG: Some of us had to go 7:00 to 12:30 or 1:00. Can’t remember. Then the other

�Lillian Green

4

group came in and was there until 5:30 or 6:00. Our days were short.
RT: Wow. Interesting. Very interesting.
LG: Yeah and now you could hardly get a Black kid in Buist school still because
now it’s Buist Academy.
RT: Mmm. Absolutely right.
LG: Yeah, so it’s—all in all I was happy that as far—a little Black kid, it’s
confusing. It was confusing and I don't think a lot of people realize, thinking about this,
they say kids, but they weren’t thinking about Black kids.
RT: Right. And around what age were you when you were walking, were you
walking by yourself or were you walking with other girls at that time?
LG: No. Actually when I first started, your grandmother Bee, she took me to
Buist school to teach me where to be in school and then right to Emanuel Church because
we went to Emanuel Church. So after I learned my way there, I would walk.
RT: Okay. Okay. Oh, that’s excellent.
LG: Yeah they would take me, showed me we couldn’t walk King Street because
the shops were there. Anything happen in any of the stores, the first Black person, they
say y'all did it. So King Street only on Sunday because the stores were closed then. Not
like now. But so we went either St. Phillip Street or I walked down to Meeting Street to
Calhoun.
RT: Okay. Now just to clarify those who are listening, Bee is my grandmother.
And who is Bee to you?
LG: My cousin.
RT: Okay. Excellent. Excellent. So tell me a little bit more about your family at

�Lillian Green

5

that time because I can really hear it in your voice. You’re really passionate about the
family.
LG: Yeah, well Bee was my cousin and they lived on Charles Street and some
people call it - oh it has two names. And we lived - so it was all in the downtown area.
And Bee’s grandmother that we called Aunt Annie, she was - and my mother’s - I’m
trying to think, they were - their parents were sisters.
RT: Okay.
LG: Yeah, so that would be your great-grandmother.
RT: Wow. Wow.
LG: Yeah so we always said cousin Annie. Yes, and any time there was a
hurricane or something coming we would go on Charles Street and we would all be there
because the house we lived in, the people who lived in the front house, they were from
Adam’s Run and then they would go to Adam’s Run, boat up and go to Adam’s Run and
so instead of us being there. Because there were a lot of trees in that area.
RT: Mmm. Well did that area flood or?
LG: It flooded downtown. Yeah, not as bad as the city floods now because I think
they’re tearing down so many places and build houses years ago, they didn’t allow you to
build. You go downtown. I mean they’re so squeezed up and you couldn’t down that
thing.
RT: Wow.
LG: But yeah we would go there, so that’s how your grandmother Bee - so yeah, I
miss all of those old people because then we knew who cousins were. Because if they
would come up the country, there’s cousin so and so, but now with my mom gone, cousin

�Lillian Green

6

Annie’s gone and Lula.
RT: Right. Lula.
LG: So those - they’re - yeah.
RT: You talked about your school. Now it was a labor of love for you to get to
school.
LG: Yes.
RT: What are some of your best memories about school?
LG: The teachers were - they were fantastic and they actually - integration was
good because the kids didn’t have to do what I have to do. Now it’s almost back. I don't
know. The system is so - it’s crazy now. But those teachers taught us. If there were some
kids who were slower, they could divide them in the class and while we were doing one
thing they would be sitting there helping the slow students.
RT: Okay. Can you describe some of the classroom? What did it look like when
you were in there? How many kids?
LG: We had maybe around about thirty. About thirty.
RT: Okay.
LG: Yeah and we didn’t think it was over crowded. And then of course you have
the radiator heaters.
RT: Okay.
LG: Radiators be making all that noise.
RT: So where was the radiator heater? Was it in the back of the room or was it in
the middle of the room?
LG: I’m trying to think. I think it was - well it was kind of hard to say if it was

�Lillian Green
back, front. When we entered - well that would be the front because the teacher’s desk
and the radiators were like on the side. Like how this - along, yeah.
RT: Okay.
LG: And we had the coat rack sitting to the back.
RT: Okay, so you mentioned that the teachers were the thing that you remember
the most. They were fantastic.
LG: Yeah.
RT: Can you go into some of the things that they’ve taught you and maybe it’s
something to help you in life? Did they share anything?
LG: Oh yeah. We learned - oh, English. You couldn’t use bad English in class.
RT: Oh excellent.
LG: Because they would - of course now, the kids, that’s a special language.
Because I know my granddaughter one time was talking on the phone and she said - no,
where you at? And her mother, my daughter that was a pastor that died, said what? My
mom talk - so when she got off the phone, Mama said where you at? Well that’s how we
talk. Mama said not in here.
RT: Oh wow.
LG: Yeah. She said no. Not in here. She said you know the correct way. Do you
say that in school? No Ma’am. She said well, you don't say that here. You say it
correctly. She said well some of the kids don't like you to - she said I don't care.
RT: Wow.
LG: She said you speak correctly. Where you at? Girl, where you at? Uh-uh. No.
No. And but our teachers, they were great. And it’s so odd we didn’t have the room but

7

�Lillian Green

8

we would have the hallway at certain times. We did music. We had somebody would
teach us. So we got music. Pianos in the hall and we had operettas there. We’d have,
instead of plays, we’d have the operettas and we’d sing the parts. And of course then
we’d have to go to Arches School because they were the only Black school that had an
auditorium.
RT: Wow.
LG: So all the schools had to use Henry P. Archer Auditorium. But it was great.
So we had music and at recess the teachers were out there. They assigned different ones
to keep order and because at Buist School we didn’t have a cafeteria. We had - it was like
a house and they did the food in that little building and then they had - well now it would
come in handy because we had little tables outside. We would get our lunch and eat up
there.
RT: Okay.
LG: But in school and in church we were just happy. But once we got into the
outside world then we realized it’s - it was different. Because of our skin color.
RT: Yeah. Right. But no, excellent feedback. And actually we’re - that’s the
perfect segue into our next question. How did you get your job at Roper hospital?
LG: Well I went to the nursing school.
RT: Okay, tell me a little bit about that.
LG: Okay. I went to - they had an LPN school. Practical nursing school. And so I
went there because I went to New York for a year to get residency up there so I could go
to nursing school to be a registered nurse.
RT: Oh wow. Okay.

�Lillian Green

9

LG: But then my mom got sick and then I came back home. We she didn’t tell
me. A neighbor told me that my mom was sick and she said, I don't know if she told you.
So I came back home. And so Medical University was there. St. Francis Nursing School.
I couldn’t go. Because I was Black.
RT: Wow. So where did you get your residency in New York when you went up?
LG: Well I was living with my godmother in the Bronx. And if you were there at
least from six months to a year, you could get help. You were considered a resident and
so the tuition would be much less.
RT: Did you find that to be kind of a normal trend? If you wanted to go into
nursing? Because Mary Moultrie had to do the same thing.
LG: Yeah but then I also found out up there, I mean the schools were open to you
and everything, but you still had the little - some White folks don't want to say they’re
racist. But they’re prejudiced.
RT: Okay.
LG: It’s just - it wasn’t as bad as here. It’s sort of under - you’d have to kind of but so I came back and then I end up going to Roper’s Practical Nursing School.
RT: Okay.
LG: And see now that’s an odd situation again. I could go to the practical nursing
school but Roper’s was segregated. Everything was segregated. But I wanted to be in
nursing and so I got. And so afterwards they told those of us who wanted to walk at
Roper if we filled out an application and a lot of our graduated went to Medical.
RT: Okay.
LG: A few of us stayed at Roper.

�Lillian Green

10

RT: And when did you graduate?
LG: Oh gosh.
RT: You knew I was going to ask that question.
LG: I can’t - I have to go back. I’m trying to think.
RT: Or how big was the class that graduated - because you mentioned that some
did go to the Medical College in addition to Roper’s.
LG: Yeah, we had maybe about twenty-five. Yeah about twenty-five in the class.
RT: And we can come back. That’s no problem. When did you more or less we’re talking more since we’re kind of going in a direction toward the Medical College
and the strike itself. How was life - and you kind of touched on it - was it - good evening
Sir, how are you?
Male Voice: I’m fine, how are you?
RT: I am fantastic. When did you realize that they were organizing at the Medical
College? Did you hear anything prior to the strike or did you hear about them forming a
union or anything like that?
LG: No someone told me that. Mary Moultrie. That’s who. Was kind of fed up
with how things were going at Medical.
RT: Okay. And what did you hear? What were some of the things you were
hearing?
LG: Disrespect. The pay was different for the same position. The whole setup, it
was just different for Black and White. And we were surprised there was going to be a
big strike like - I don’t think we were sure that it was going to be - they were going to.
And I think in the beginning it was just the local people. Bill Saunders was helping them

�Lillian Green

11

and I think Reverend [Frederick Douglas ] Dawson. He’s since passed. Because he was anything that’s not right, Reverend Dawson was there. He was at Calvary Baptist, was at
Sumter and Ashley but they just built a new church.
And some local people and I think most of them were people who did not have to
depend on White people for their livelihood.
RT: Interesting.
LG: Because if you were out there, your face was out there and you worked for
some White company or something, you may lose your job. So city Reverend Dawson
was pastor, Black church. That’s why I think a lot of pastors were not involved.
RT: We very involved. Okay.
LG: Because they depended on the people in their church. You know, and RT: Mmm. Well Bill Saunders, he worked for the paper company but they were
Jewish so they were very supportive in his activism.
LG: Mmm. Yeah, because Jews, a lot of Jews that helped. I told somebody with
all the things we’ve gone through, they were people who helped.
RT: Oh wow.
LG: And they - a lot of Jews, people were members of the NAACP.
RT: Oh that’s right. Okay.
LG: Mmm. So and plus Bill, I think had some other things that he did personally.
So I guess if he got fired he knew he could do something else. And so they started to
strike and then I think Mrs. King eventually came and some old folks that I probably
can’t remember all the names now, but when the strike was going on, I guess they
thought it was just going to be for a couple of days or so. But it went on. And so the

�Lillian Green

12

governor and I can’t even remember who the governor was.
RT: McNair?
LG: And they sent - oh.
RT: The National Guard?
LG: The National Guard. And they were all around and it was so interesting. I
would walk from my house where I was living on - I know it was somewhere in the
Hampton Park area but I always walk. I never learned how to drive so I walked
everywhere. Except now I can’t. I should have learned how to drive. (0:21:35) I don't
need to learn how to drive. I walked everywhere. And when they saw the - you know, the
malls and stuff, I could take the bus and come. On my day off I’d come. And so - I lost
my train of thought.
RT: Oh no you’re fine. You were talking about the organizing kind of surprised
you and shocked you. You didn’t know it was going to kind of blow up like it did. So you
thought it was only going to last a couple of days.
LG: Yeah I think a lot of Blacks - I think the general population, and so I’d walk
to work and when I got to the corner of - oh that’s Bee Street. No, passed Bee and then
where the medical psych unit is right now because then that unit was not there. I’m trying
to think. People lived in the area, a little alleyway that was there then. And then (0:22:4)
Porter Gaud School was still across the street. That’s now West Ashley. But the National
Guard was helping Black people as you’re entering the hospital area. “Where are you
going?”
I’m in uniform. I said “I’m going to work.” “ Do you have some ID?” “I said it’s
at work.” Because I would leave my hospital ID, I’d throw it in my locker. Because they

�Lillian Green

13

wanted you to have it on at work and sometimes if I changed uniforms I’d just throw it on
the dresser or something and forget it. So I’d leave it in my locker. And so one of them
said “ Well we need some ID for you to go in this area.” I said “Medical is that way. I’m
going this way.”
RT: Interesting.
LG: And so they said “Well I’m sorry, that’s what we were told.” I said “Okay,
fine, I’ll go back home and tell them you won’t let me come.” So I guess it was
somebody who was over him or something was like, “well where is she going?” I said
“right around the corner” because Roper back door was right there. And I said “you could
follow me and walk in”. And yeah, and I’d look and I saw White folks who would park
somewhere going. I said so “you’re only stopping Black people?” Because they didn’t
answer me.
I was just so glad when they realized they couldn’t do without those people. So
they had to cancel some surgeries. They had to - they couldn’t - it was a lot. It hurt them.
They didn’t think it would, but what happened also with the strike, it helped those of us at
Roper because then Roper’s was saying hey, this is going on for a longer time than we
thought and it might RT: Impact us?
LG: Yeah. And so they made changes. Because they weren’t giving us the respect
that we needed. And some - I found this out from a young lady who notified somebody in
Washington. She found out that the position she had and the position this White lady had
were identical, but she found out - because one time the paychecks came out and they
were not - they just came out to the floor and actually, in alphabetical order and you

�Lillian Green

14

could actually look and see somebody’s pay. And she found that out that way.
RT: Wow. So was there the same discrepancy in pay at the Medical College at
Roper at the time?
LG: With some people. See, we didn’t know - we actually didn’t know because I
never did look at anybody’s paycheck. I just wanted to make sure mine was in there. And
so this person notified somebody in Washington and they had an (0:25:54) and so it was
settled. And then the checks start coming out in the envelopes.
RT: Interesting. Very interesting. Very interesting. So when did this happen
because you remember with the strike when it actually happened, then county
[Charleston County Hospital] also went on strike. So did anybody approach you guys and
say hey?
LG: Some people did. Because a lot of times you’d have relatives or you’d have
friends who were you know RT: And what were your thoughts when they approached you?
LG: Well I really couldn’t. I was a single mom.
RT: Oh, interesting.
LG: And I had my kids. But they knew we were with them, but I couldn’t. But
what happened, one day all the Black nurses in the OR called in sick.
RT: Mmm.
LG: The LPN’s anyhow. And so they had to cancel a lot of surgeries.
RT: Mmm. And how many times did they do that? What that just a one-time
instance of protest?
LG: They did it for a couple of days.

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RT: Wow.
LG: And then some things started changing because actually Roper had - we
could not use the same restrooms the Whites used. So it’s - they had - it was - well they
all, because even St. Francis, they were a Catholic Hospital. When you went there you
were not put in a room with a White patient. They - I know Cheryl was over there
because things were supposedly integrated then. But Cheryl was admitted and she was in
a semi-private room and so this White lady did not like that. A Black roommate. She
didn’t just come out and say it but we figured that out.
Because they said well they weren’t sure what was going on with Cheryl. And
they put her in a private room and St. Francis at the time was downtown and some of the
rooms did not have a window and it was private. And I went I told them Cheryl’s
insurance didn’t pay for a private room. And I said plus, I said, that room, no window?
And so when I came back the next day because Cheryl called me, told me they put her in
another room. But it was private. I said okay.
When it was time for her to check out and she said they were telling her about her
bill and I went down there. I was nice, I thought. I said Cheryl did not have anything
contagious. I said I asked her doctor, he did not request a private room. Her insurance
does not pay for a private room. We are not paying and don't bother sending the bill
because we are not. Because I said I will tell them she was moved because that White
female did not want her in that room.
Because some people, was about two Black persons in the office and of course the
White they just look up. Well we’ll check on that. I said check all you want. We’re not
paying. She did not request it and her doctor didn’t. I said the person who should have

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been moved was her roommate.
RT: Interesting.
LG: So it’s a little thing but they finally made changes at Roper also. First the
restroom issue and even the nurse’s lounge. Because we had a separate lounge and in fact
one time the doctor asked us, “why are y'all eating back here?” And we said - and he said,
“in this day and time, really?”
RT: Wow.
LG: And we said, yeah. He said “well I’m going to mention that to someone when
we have a board meeting.” That there were - they gradually made changes.
RT: Okay. But it didn’t happen overnight.
LG: No, but they tried to get us straightened up because when the strike went on
and on, they were like oh wow. And especially when it went over to county. So you had
people - all circling all around.
RT: Did you see any of the strikers? Did you see LG: Oh yes, we did.
RT: Can you describe what you were seeing?
LG: We were just walking peacefully.
RT: Okay.
LG: Some had signs.
RT: Do you remember any of the signs you saw?
LG: No.
RT: Okay.
LG: Equal pay for equal work or something like that. But it was interesting, we’d

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look out the window and some of our White co-workers were out RT: Did they make any comments.
LG: A little nervous. I hope y'all don't go out there. I know one of my co-works
said “I’ma be out there next week.” It was Helen Campbell that was there to fix it, while
I’ll just them go and get nervous. Yeah, it was interesting because we could - if you
picture where local hospital is and where County is and Medical, you could go to the
window and look and see. And so - and I know one of the pediatricians I work with told
me that they ended up doing a lot of stuff that the nurses would do, because he said you
didn’t have - you mess those folks and he said - he was telling them I don't know why
they don't just go and settle everything.
RT: Mmm. This is one of the doctors at Roper?
LG: Yeah.
RT: Wow.
LG: Well then he was doing his internship or residency at Medical.
RT: Oh so he was at the Medical College?
LG: Yes, he was there. Because on the pediatrics floor, since he was going to be a
pediatrician they had - it was a Black RN who was in charge, which was unusual. And he
said when they go to check on a baby or something they said oh, she needs changing. Oh,
her husband’s a AME preacher over at Mt. Pleasant. I can’t remember the name right
now. But she said change it. So he said they’d look at each other and he said some of the
guys in there had never changed a baby before.
RT: They’d never changed a diaper. They usually had the workers take care of it
for them.

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LG: Yeah because the nurses would make sure. They’d check and see if they had
been changed and they’d go to do something and “say oh, (0:33:50) has a poopy diaper.”
She said “change - go ahead and change him.”
RT: Wow.
LG: So he was saying gosh they just need to settle this. This is nonsense. You’re
doing the same work and then they call you by your name but everybody else is
addressed - because Roper did that too.
RT: Oh, interesting.
LG: Oh yeah. And a notice came around about how to address people. Yeah so
that’s what I’m saying, Medical and County strike made changes at Roper.
RT: Interesting.
LG: Yeah.
RT: So did that notice come out immediately or did it come out - because you
know the strike itself ran for 119 days. So did it come out kind of in the middle of that?
Do you remember?
LG: I think probably in the middle because like I said, I don't think anyone
thought it was going to last as long RT: As long as it did.
LG: They thought they’re going to get tired. They didn’t. And so we were happy
for them and when they’d have meetings sometimes, some of us would try to go.
Happened at different churches.
RT: Right. So did you attend any of the ones at Morris?
LG: A couple. Not a lot.

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RT: Okay.
LG: Yeah, so they gradually started changing things at Roper. So that’s why I said
the strike made things change at Roper.
RT: Okay. Well going back to some of the meetings you went to, can you
remember any of some of the things that were said? Were they more encouraging
meetings or were they kind of status? Oh we’re going to be doing this or hey we’re going
to boycott that?
LG: No, it was encouraging because they knew that some people who were still
there - because some of people still had to work there. You had people who worked in
environmental services. Then it wasn’t environment services. They called them
housekeepers.
RT: Okay.
LG: But they were working and some of them would say how things were
changing and that they were trying to not say well we give up, this is the medical
establishment. And when you went to the meetings, they said we’re going to keep at it.
Because you know, until we realized that you need it. You need it. And it took them they were just bull-headed. It took them a while because then you - those people were
doing their job.
RT: Wow. What are some of the highest points of the strike and what are some of
the lowest points of the strike that you can remember?
LG: Now I think lowest points, like some folks and it was predominantly White
people, when they went there to work they knew what the salary was, so why are they
making a big deal out of it? But every job you go on you know what the pay is. And you

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might say oh wow, that’s good. And you might say well I thought I would be getting
more. But as you work, you - most people have a system where you get good review and
so you get more money.
And nobody’s salary stays the same. I mean maybe McDonald’s and those, not
even those people, they need to make more money. You can’t live off of that money. So
yes, you knew what the salary was. But you expect to get paid raise according to what
you do because some companies, that’s how they have it. If you’ve done well, at a certain
point, if the company is doing well then everybody get like maybe two percent of their
percentage raised. Nobody’s salary stays the same.
I mean even these politicians. They vote raises for themselves. So we heard a lot
of that. And of course you have a few Black folks who are like they’re still doing that?
Those people are not going to give in. But those are the folks who - I guess some have
faith. You have to have faith to take up a cause and continue it.
RT: Okay, so what are some of the highest points? You talked about the lowest
points being - we’re still fighting for fair salaries. So what are some of the high points?
LG: The high points I think was the young ladies, because I knew quite a few of
them because it’s like I said, some were in the class with you when you graduated from
the school. They were very optimistic. They knew there were going to be changes. And
one person said maybe not for me but the person who comes behind me.
RT: Wow.
LG: And so they were optimistic. They - like the song says don't let anybody turn
me around.
RT: Alright now. Alright now.

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LG: Yeah, so - and Mary Moultrie, she was out there. She was out there from the
beginning to the end.
RT: Right. Did you get to hear her speak or anything? Or meet her in person?
LG: Well I knew her from years ago and had not had too much contact with her
working over in Medical, I’m there. But even her family members. Because my daughter
Donna went to school with one of her sisters. It was her niece. Because they’re such a
close family together. And then my other daughter that died also, Dawn, she went to
school with somebody in that family. So when we were living as they say back to
(0:40:38), they lived - their family lived on Allway Street.
And so Allway Street is right there in the projects. Yeah, and so we knew the
family. Not personal, not to visit, but yeah.
RT: Okay. What about - you talked about Robert Abernathy, did you get to hear
him speak or did you get to see him?
LG: I got to see him. I didn’t get to hear him speak, but yeah.
RT: Okay, do you have any memories of him?
LG: I just thought that he - all those folks who did it. I just thought that they were
brave because of the causes they took up - they were like going to Afghanistan. It was
dangerous.
RT: Right. It’s a very LG: It was dangerous.
RT: Wow. Abernathy. He was being tested special with MLK just passing.
LG: Yeah.
RT: And he’s taking over the reins.

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LG: Yeah and so I just admired them. And I’m just trying to think when - at one
point I know when we were talking about protesting, I don't know - it was in the nurse’s
march when Reverend King and those were down, and so a group of us said we were
going. And one thing they ask you not to do - not to be violent. Don't care what people
did. But we were on King Street one day because I did it twice. Somebody - they were
spitting on it. I can’t - told my girlfriend, I said no. I said that part, no. And we would go
to the meetings at the different churches.
One night we were at a church on Meeting Street right in front of where Piggly
Wiggly was. Methodist Church. We were in there and Reverend - young Reverend Blake
and some other young people, they were talking and then they were singing and firemen
and policemen came in, said we had to leave the building. Somebody said they put a
bomb in the church. And so later on we were laughing because two of my girlfriends and
I, we were sitting and we were like - we were getting our purse and stuff and the young
kids said start singing we shall not be moved. Going around the church and then they
were like oh god, if they’re not going (0:43:34).
We stayed there and they kept the voices and the heart and heart asking you to
please, please you need to get out. They need to be able to search for it. Nobody moved.
Nothing.
RT: Wow.
LG: They wanted to break up a meeting.
RT: Right.
LG: So I don't know if they actually got a call or what but anyhow they didn’t
move. And we laughed later on, they said all the young people, they said they got moved

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facing us because they said there’s not no bomb in there. They were getting all (0:44:16).
RT: So you mentioned that you weren’t able to hear any memorable speeches.
Well let’s go back to your family. How was the family - your family coping during this
time? Now, I know we’re talking kind of indirectly and you knew about others and they
knew you had their support, but like you said you’re still walking the same streets and
when the National Guard approached you, they’re still treating you just like them.
LG: Yeah.
RT: They don't see any difference.
LG: Nope.
RT: So how did your family kind of cope with the situation?
LG: They were in school and they did pretty good. They were just concerned that
because so many kids they were going to school with had relatives who work at Medical.
And they said you think those White folks might start shooting people or something? But
no, that didn’t happen. But they were concerned that family members would come to
some harm. But it was peaceful.
RT: Right. Was there any tension in the family? Did you have any family
members that just didn’t want any part of it or everybody was just a united front behind LG: They were united because they know changes needed to be made. Even in the
churches. Now some of the older people which was my age. When I say old, I was saying
the older people, look at me - that’s great. I say well, at that time they were old. I said I’m
old. Now I think they were fearful.
RT: Okay.
LG: Yeah. The times that we grew up in, you have to be fearful because even as a

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young child, I was so - when I saw a White person, if I was by myself, in fact I told a
friend and she laughed. I thought every White person was a member of the Klan.
RT: Oh wow.
LG: I really did. I did. That was my childhood. Every White person had their Klan
outfit and so that’s just how it felt. And so I think some of the older people - because
they’d known the Klan were alive and well and sometimes they would do stuff. They
didn’t have to pay.
RT: Wow.
LG: They weren’t arrested and even when they were, you get an all-White jury,
nothing happened. So I think that was their fear because I know at our church when
Reverend Glover was the pastor of our church and he was another one out there. He was
there asking for the bus drivers because you didn’t - majority Blacks rode the bus. This
was the belt line and all of the drivers were White. And he was out there protesting plus
for the schools. Because our parson was on Rockledge and right across from him was a
school. James Simmons.
No, not James Simmons but St. Mitchell. I think Mitchell across. His kids could
walk right across the street and walk right into the school but they couldn’t go. And so he
was out there protesting, got arrested a couple times. All the people in the church saying
it don't look good for the pastor to be in jail, but the pastor had to do it because they
didn’t have to worry about being fired when they went back. Because a lot of people lost
their jobs who were seen marching.
They - so and some people wanted to but they had to work so you didn’t have too
much other choice.

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RT: Right, when they called for certain places to be boycotted, and I know you
heard about that at the time, did you also support the boycott at that time?
LG: Oh yeah.
RT: And what are some of the places that you - can you remember some of the
places that you boycotted?
LG: Well I know one place was at Edward’s.
RT: Edward’s, okay.
LG: Yeah Edwards was like what came out as the people now because you can go
in there and get almost anything. And Reverend Glover was running his march around
that because they said all the Black people - that’s who went in Edward’s. And there were
no Black cashiers. And so they were there marching around Edward’s. And I’m trying to
think. A couple other stores, but then there was like - they disrespect you, don't spend
your money in those places.
And you know at one time, King Street, all the stores were owned by people who
live here. So now you go downtown, of course you have Condon’s, you had Kerrison. All
of those places, the families lived here. And so don't go in. And eventually - and I can’t
remember how long it took, but and then the bus, they finally got Black bus drivers. So
but you had to go - in fact when Reverend Glover went and a couple other ministers went
down to Fort Sumter Hotel, they know they didn’t need a room but they wouldn’t leave.
They got arrested.
Now some of those older people in the church said you really got to stop. You got
to stop that. That just don't look good. Some people said well, they don't have to worry
about being fired. You know?

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RT: Mmm. Absolutely.
LG: So they’re the ones who had to do it. And meetings were held in the Black
churches because where else could you go? We didn’t have any place else to go. So that’s
why a lot of times they said I wonder why the Black ministers get involved? They were
involved because they realized our people are paying our salary and we let them come in
the church. You had meetings, most of the meetings were held at churches.
RT: Right. So you touched on this a little bit earlier, but how did Roper change
after the strike? You mentioned that during the strike they started putting policies in
place, but did it change anymore once the strike was over?
LG: You could see small changes even in people’s attitude. And it was on-going
and it was slow. But it got change. If it wasn’t for that strike, I know by now it would
have changed, but I don't know how long it would have taken.
RT: Okay.
LG: So the strike sort of open their eyes. Like oh. It’s coming close, so yeah.
RT: Okay. Now did you hear about anything over at County or possibly back at
the Medical College once it was over, how things were going?
LG: No. Well some of the White co-workers sort of gave them the cold shoulder
for a while.
RT: Interesting.
LG: But they realized you can’t take care of a sick person and depend on this
person to be helping you if you’re going to act a fool.
RT: Oh I agree.
LG: So it gradually - because you know, a lot of White people didn’t want to

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accept the changes. And it was on account they could tell on that strike and how long it
lasted. Just like the Montgomery boycott, the bus. They took a while, but they realized if
it didn’t change - and when you hurt somebody I guess in their pocketbook, you know?
RT: Oh yes. You get their attention.
LG: Yeah and some places, some people would go - of course it was the same
thing anywhere you’d go in South Carolina. But they would have bus rides to go
shopping somewhere, so that was another thing. So they’re taking the money out of the
city and going and giving it to another city. But still the city of Charleston realized that
they missed - because Black people are going to spend their money. Sometimes RT: What are some of the other cities that they went to shop when they had those
bus rides?
LG: Right now I can’t remember where. I knew it went to Myrtle Beach.
RT: Oh really? Wow.
LG: And sometimes even down to Savannah but some of those places had the
same problems with - well I guess you had the domino effect. Once you see it’s
happening over there, if we don't do something here, it’s going to come here. So I think
that’s what happened. You just RT: Okay. What are some of the achievements of the strike? You talked you got
the respect they of course deserve. Is there anything else outside of respect that they
gained?
LG: Well they hired more Black RN’s, even Roper, and then every time then you
even had - an RN, I mean a Black RN who was a head nurse.
RT: Oh wow.

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LG: So the change, it came slowly but it came and like I said my time where I
could see it.
RT: Excellent.
LG: And people in positions that - I know this was way after the strike but at one
point, I’m trying to think - Roper had - I’m trying to think if he was - what his position
was. This young Black guy. And we were so happy to see him. I’m trying to think what
he was doing. But he was doing like an internship and it was - but anyhow it was up in
the corporate area. And so we were just so glad that - although he was just going to be
there for like a year but we had never seen a Black person down there in that office. And
just - you know, so things came about gradually.
RT: Well you talked about the positive, the change that gradually happened. Were
there any negatives due to the strike? You talked about the animosity with some
Caucasians where they didn’t like the fact, they wanted to keep the status-quo. So is there
any things outside of that? Is that kind of a failure of the strike or did you notice any
failures from the strike?
LG: No, I think of course - not I’m told but I know just from reading the paper,
Medical still has a little problem. It’s not that problem but they’ve had some Black
employees who were fired and of course the reasons that were given, they were fighting
it. And so you still have to watch it. And even I know some Black co-workers, my Black
co-workers, we would sit in the nurse’s lounge sometimes and we were talking about
how things don't look like it should be.
And after they all left and I was still in there, the secretary who was this White
secretary says - she said Ms. Green, can I ask you something? I said yes. She said why do

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you all - of course when you hear you all, you know what’s coming - complain so much?
I said you would have to be Black to know and it’s not going to happen. And she said because I don't see - I heard y'all talking and I don't see some of those things. I said you
won’t see it. You won’t.
So about two weeks later, she said I owe you an apology. I said really? So she
said I went down to do human resources one day. She said when I went down there, there
were two White females waiting. They were there. And she said there were two Black
females sitting over at a desk filling out employment paper. I say oh - that’s when you did
it paper, now you can go on the computer.
RT: Mmm. Yes Ma’am.
LG: And so she said - and when they left and gave this lady in human resource
the paper and she said she was real nice sounding. Well you should hear from somebody
in a couple of days or so. And she said as soon as those ladies were out the door and the
door was closed she put it in the - oh, my RT: The shredder?
LG: The shredder.
RT: Wow.
LG: And she said the three of them looked at each other, you know, three ways.
And so I said what did you all do? She said we just looked and when we went out the
door we were like wow. I can’t believe she did that. And so her husband was a minister
and so she said she told him. And he said well what did you do? She said well I was so
shocked I didn’t know what to do. He said what you should have done was to call or
write a note to someone up in the corporate office. And he said because that’s

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unacceptable. And she said and so - he said but let’s do this and they went and the little
chapel, church - she said and we prayed for her and the two young ladies.
RT: Wow.
LG: I said oh, that was nice. She said I still feel guilty because she said, now - she
said I can see when you all were saying things, some of the things - because she said if I
wasn’t down there and you said that, I may not have believed you.
RT: Wow.
LG: I said it goes on. It goes on. Yeah.
RT: Yes Ma’am. So you would say the strike changed you personally? I mean did
it change you for the better because you knew certain things were going on and you
resisted in one or did it change anything in Charleston at the time?
LG: I think it changed things in Charleston because it was part of an on-going Spring, it started and then different places started making changes. And it didn’t actually
change me because I learned something from my mother years ago. I studied people. My
mother told me if I kept my lips zipped, my eyes open and this open, she said you will
learn about life things I can’t teach you and you will learn about people. You will learn
people. And I knew even when some people smiling, hugging and all that, I sort of kept
that little funny smile back because you can almost tell a phony if you really study
people.
RT: Yes Ma’am.
LG: But as I got older I just accept people for who they are. They all have their
thoughts and I can’t change it. And so because I know not too long, recently, we were
talking about the football player. I think his name is Kaepernick or whatever.

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RT: Mmm. Colin Kaepernick.
LG: And so somebody was saying for the Star Spangled Banner, and of course it
was a White lady, I just can’t believe he didn’t stand for it. Does he know how many
people went to war and all to - well I didn’t say anything to her because I did not want to
get into it. But I said the Star Spangled Banner, we are saying because that’s what we’ve
been doing. It was not written for Black people. Francis Scott Key wrote is as a poem.
That’s something a teacher taught me in elementary school but it was taught it was
written as a poem and the US made it into - .
RT: The National Anthem.
LG: But I said if you read all the words, he wrote that - he was a slave trader. He
had our people, owning them like you own cattle. So when he said the land of the free
and the home of the brave. We weren’t free so it wasn’t for us. So he has the right, now
he’s thinking about it, to do that. And so I wanted to say something but I said - I was too
passionate and I didn’t want to sound argumentative. But I said if she thinks about it and
even the Pledge of Allegiance. And when we were in school, a couple of my classmates
would stand - because we had to stand and do the pledge, but they didn’t say it.
And I was always oh, they don't know it. And then my mom said they’re probably
Jehovah’s Witness. Because they’re not going to pledge. So Jehovah Witnesses don't do
it. They don't pledge, unless they’ve changed.
RT: Right.
LG: So and then I thought more about that lady. I said my brother went to World
War II. Came back here, he couldn’t vote. I mean because Blacks couldn’t vote. He
couldn’t vote but he went and fought for this country. So talking about the Star Spangled

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Banner and the people who went to war. What does it mean to her? But I said I would
have gotten into a long - yeah, so he has the right not to.
RT: Right.
LG: And so a White person, unless one morning they wake up and God has made
them Black, they won’t ever understand.
RT: Wow.
LG: Because even now, some people think when I - watch the Slager trial thing
on TV. I don't care what Scott said to him, because he said he was cussing him and all
that. So what? He was running away. And how could that be okay? To shoot a man that
many times in the back? Running away. And it’s not just him. The little twelve-year-old
boy that was playing on the playground who had a RT: Toy gun.
LG: He got shot. Those two policemen, nothing’s happening. They’re still
working. Nobody is being responsible for what they did. They thought it was a real gun
but they didn’t even wait because they were saying from the time the car got there and he
shot - so it’s so - we’ve still got a way to go.
RT: Right. Are there any questions I didn’t ask that you’d like to talk about as we
come to a close?
LG: No, I just - well talking about the election.
RT: Well more toward the strike, is there any other questions that we did talk
about or I don’t want to leave your memories not touched on that we left LG: No I think we touched most of it. Yeah.
RT: Okay. Well once again, Ms. Green, thank you for your time and we really

�33

Lillian Green
appreciate the feedback you provided. I think this will be a great help for us moving
forward.
LG: Okay I hope so.
RT: Alright.
End of recording.
Edited by ML 9/13/17

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                    <text>TRANSCRIPT – ANNE MARIE GILLIARD
Interviewee: ANNE MARIE GILLIARD
Interviewer: CLARISSA WRIGHT
Interview Date: October 2, 2011
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 30 minutes
CLARISSA WRIGHT: The date is October the 2nd, 2011. This is the interview
with Anne Marie Gilliard, done by Clarissa Denise Wright. Okay, what is your full
name?
ANNE MARIE GILLIARD: My name is Anne Marie Gilliard.
CW: When were you born?
AMG: I was born on July 4, 1928 in Mount Pleasant, at Charleston, South
Carolina. I am the oldest, the second-oldest out of four girls born to my parents, Abraham
Mazyck and Coretta Mazyck.
CW: Were you born at home?
AMG: Why, yes. Back then, everyone was born at home in those days. My
youngest two sisters were lucky enough to be born at the hospital for us black folks.
CW: Was this hospital in Charleston?
AMG: Yes, I believe it was called the Cannon Street Hospital then. Then they
changed it in about, oh, I don’t know, end of the 50s. I don’t remember the year, but I
know that it was around the time when Dr. King was going around marching for civil
rights and such.
CW: Okay, so it was 1959.

�Anne Marie Gilliard

2

AMG: Yeah, you’re right. It was 1959.
CW: Okay, so tell me about your childhood. What did your parents do?
AMG: Well, my father was a farmer. He did sharecropping type of work for the
longest. He always had a green thumb. He actually had our own back yard in the country
and a huge garden. We grew everything we could think of, so as kids, we never had to
actually buy food. Let’s see, my mother was a seamstress and a laundry woman. In the
country, all the black families washed and ironed their own clothes, but none of them
could sew like my mother. She worked in the city for two white families. One of them
was a white doctor, and the other worked for a bank.
CW: Okay.
AMG: My mother would bring home every evening dresses that needed to be
mended and would constantly complain, saying, “They make all that money, but too
cheap to send these clothes out to a tailor. We would spend hours mending clothes for
extra money, too, while my father had a second job sort of, too. He sold hooch. Do you
know what that is?
CW: Why, yes. It’s moonshine, I think, isn’t it? Or as they say, corn liquor. Is that
what it is, right?
AMG: Why, yes! It’s moonshine. Oh, goodness. You know stuff. Yeah,
everybody. He made the best liquor. He had a still way back yonder in the woods, and
sometimes as children, my sisters and I would follow my dad. Well, not all of us, not my
youngest sister. She was a sickly child and she couldn’t go out as much.
CW: What was wrong with her?
AMG: I really don’t know. She would swell up like real big sometimes, like a big

�Anne Marie Gilliard

3

puffer fish, and she would be swollen all over. My parents would take her to Cannon
Street to see, so she could be seen by the black doctors. His name was Dr. I think,
[Herbert U.] Seabrook maybe. That was during the Depression before the war. I know
that I was about seven or eight. They still charged tolls to cross, and during those times,
they would take her in the afternoon and wouldn’t make it back home until past dark.
One time, I went in place of Momma, I was about ten then, and there were so many
people crowded around.
CW: At the hospital?
AMG: Yes! There were sick people all over, some young, some old. I remember
all that day, I didn't go to school. I only went up until about fourth grade anyway.
CW: We’ll come back to that later then. Go on.
AMG: But yeah, that day, the hospital was right there on Cannon Street. It was a
big brick building, and they set up seating outside for some people, some of the older
people. There were people from Daniel Island, Awendaw, and Mount Pleasant. There had
even been another little girl all the way from Edisto. We all bring lunches and the nurses
would be really nice. This young nurse, some brought food for us children. She rounded
up all the children, and she brought ham and fruits to us. I remember when we finally
made it in the hospital, it was already dusk, but it had a smell in there. It smelled like
antiseptic. I know that sounds bad, but I hated them. The hospital was really old and run
down on the outside. There had been lots of love on the inside. The people who worked
there were very nice and just nice people. There were a lot of black, a lot of nurses back
then, a lot. See, you waited a long time to see a doctor, and the nurses did not work. My
father knew one of the doctors because he sold them fruit cocktails for their parties and

�Anne Marie Gilliard

4

functions. My father had the best fruit cocktail drinks. I had been glad to go to the
hospital on Cannon Street; Roper been the worst ever. One time, I hurt my arm and I had
to go there. Blacks had been seen separate and they’d been awful over there. They had
treated poor black folk like lepers. And the doctors been just as bad. They ain’t give us a
chance to talk or nothing. They were just plain mean. I remember my momma saying she
would never give one of them a piece of her mind if she wouldn’t get killed later.
CW: So, did a lot of people in your area go to the Cannon Street Hospital?
AMG: Oh, yeah. The one that could ride across the bridge. See, the thing being, if
you’d been black and in Charleston in them days, and not light-skinned, and not too wellto-do, you didn't have no say in nothing. I said before I only go to school, to about the
fourth grade. We had to learn a trade and work. I started traveling with my Momma in the
city, and learning the proper ways of washing and ironing clothes. I always liked them
black ones who came for money. Most of them always downtown in fancy cars. They had
been a mess, too. My Momma said sometimes us black can be as crabs in a barrel.
CW: What did she mean by that?
AMG: Well, there are kind of black been a part of this club. They talk white.
They’d look down on us, you know, country blacks. Most of them going to proper school
in the city and stuff, you know, and we had to work, but some of those nurses were
different. They seemed to care. They would ask us about school and just talk about
everything while we waited for the doctor. The doctors were very nice, too. There were
plenty of people who couldn’t pay either. My father used to bring so much fruit to pay for
the bill, and they took it. I don’t know, it just felt like, I guess, you know, to be in a place
where you are among your own, and they treat you like a person. I don’t know if you

�Anne Marie Gilliard

5

know, but Charleston was the worst back in those times. It was bad. It was bad to be
black, really. Blacks were not part of nothing. They only came when they wanted
something. You just didn't trust them.
CW: Well, do you have any examples of that?
AMG: Well, like I told you, when I got grown and the war was over, I was about
maybe sixteen then. I was going to work for my mother then. Then she started to get sick
in those days, and I would help for extra money, you know. I hated those people. I wish I
could remember their name. I’m an old woman and always have been bad with names,
but yes, there was a doctor who worked at the Roper Hospital, his wife and two
daughters. One daughter was very nice looking, but the other was worse. She was fast
and always out with those white boys. I never forget, in those times, the worst thing ever
was VD, you know, that venereal disease. Well, that fast girl messed around with some
boys and got it. Her mother was so uppity types, always rude to me. She loved my
mother, but I swear she hated me. But that day, she asked me to go with them to the black
hospital. And see, that was that thing. What a lot of folks don’t know, and white folks is
ashamed to say is that they went to the Black hospital, too. They got treated for those
nasty diseases just like us. They didn't want other white people to know though. We
would laugh at them, always trying to save face. Anyway, yeah, we went and we got
treated at the black hospital. I’m not the one to gossip, but I can tell you that was not
uncommon at all. But you know, those rich black folks down there was a mess, too.
CW: Now, when you say rich black folks, who are you referring to?
AMG: Well, like I said, I worked downtown a great deal, and well-to-do blacks
had their own stores and businesses. There was a sandwich shop off of Rutledge, and I

�Anne Marie Gilliard

6

think I would go to and just sit there and watch city folks. They were just different, you
know, like it was us country folks against city folks a lot of time. We called them
downtown Negroes. They wasn’t like the people on the islands and in Hungry Neck.
They’d talk real proper and had money, always uppity, but a lot of them were like they’re
seen on the screen, you know, like you seen them on the screen, you could look up and
down and just tell you wasn’t one of their own.
CW: Okay, so what about the black practitioners at the hospital; did the country
folks think the same things about them, too?
AMG: Well, kind of sort of. The black doctors was always really friendly and
helpful, but the relationship always been good with the country folks. You had a black
doctor. I can’t remember his name right now. Oh, man, my mind is going fast. (laughs)
He was light-skinned and good-looking, but folks were always saying he was the white
man’s spy. From what I heard, back in the days, as a young girl, was this man names
Isaac Campbell. He worked down at the docks and he had his huge house in
McClellanville. He said he didn't trust those Negro doctors one bit. He said they was in
cahoots with the white man just to get our bodies so they could do all kind of stuff,
almost like was just using black people to rub elbows with white people. They said a lot
of black on the island left the same way. It’s people that still feel that, you know, like Mr.
Z on John’s Island. Excuse me, baby, I can’t see a little bit too much either. My eyes kind
of burning and you know, have to rub it a little bit. Excuse me, baby, but he couldn’t
stand the Negro doctors or the white ones. He said it was all about money for both of
them in the end.
CW: Well, what did you think about that?

�Anne Marie Gilliard

7

AMG: Well, Papa always said Mr. Isaac nothing but hot air. But on that matter,
he had a lot of people out this way of talking. It was like the downtown Negro ain’t never
cared nothing about us before, so why all of a sudden, they’re trying to get people to take
medicine and stuff. My Papa never really paid much attention to that, especially when so
many people was dying of constipation.
CW: I am trying to figure out what type of diseases—What about tuberculosis?
Was that a disease that people were dying from?
AMG: Yeah, that’s the right name! Oh, Honey, that thing was killing us folks out
here. I remember we buried two sisters in a week! That’s one thing you could write in
your paper, too. Black folks in Charleston was some sick people, and all the hoo-doo in
Mount Pleasant, all on the island couldn’t save people from dying and all this.
CW: Okay, so tell me about World War II, do you remember anything?
AMG: Oh, yeah. These days you got to ask what war? So many people all
fighting all the during time. Yeah, I remember. They were making folks go down there to
sign up. Back then, they had those cards, like draft cards. I didn't understand anything
that was going on, but I know people was happy about their sons going off to the Army. I
am for real! That was a big deal if you knew someone in the military that was over there
fighting in the war.
CW: What happened with the hospital during this time?
AMG: Well, I really don’t know. I passed it every now and then, and again, I met
some fellow from downtown and when I could get away from my house, we would walk
by it sometimes, but people were still outside until the sun went down, and people were
still dying from every little thing.

�Anne Marie Gilliard

8

CW: Okay, so when the war ended, which was 1945, you were about seventeen
or eighteen, is that right?
AMG: Oh, yeah, I was seventeen when I started singing in the juke joints all over
Charleston, so I remember when the war ended.
CW: Oh, okay, well, what kind of music did you perform?
AMG: (laughs) Girl, that was the bad music that made my Pa mad and my
Momma ‘shamed. I always loved music, but I loved the blues best. My man friend I told
you about, he was actually from Chicago, but his sister moved down here with her
husband. The husband got drowned, they said, by some whites. But he came to South
Carolina to help out with the four children. He was a bass player and he could play
anything to make people dance. There was a juke joint in Hungry Neck named Sticks.
My Papa used to sell them moonshine and I sometimes went with him to take it. I just
started sneaking away to go hear the music and see them folks dance. I really don’t
remember how, but I started singing there on Tuesday nights. A lot of the folks, they
work on the farms, and Tuesday, they would get their money and drink it all up at Sticks.
I was scared, but they said I can sing good and I like it, so I started riding around with my
Chicago man friend to different woods to sing and drink and dance.
CW: That’s interesting. Well, what about like the Civil Rights Movement; what
did that mean to you back then?
AMG: Oh, Honey, there was something we didn't have, and you ain’t never had
missing nothing. I ended up getting pregnant in 1948, so that ain’t made no never mind to
me.
CW: Okay, so what happened with that?

�Anne Marie Gilliard

9

AMG: Child, well, you know how y’all young children do, we did the same,
sneaking around. I was fast though. I had a case of VD, too, mm-hmm, and went right to
Cannon Street to get pills to take. But I was pregnant. My Momma knew long before I
did. Mm-hmm. Couldn’t trick your Momma. My man friend, of course, was nowhere
around and my Papa put me out. I ended up staying with my aunt for a while, and I
started seeing Dr. McFall.
CW: Dr. Thomas? Is it Thomas Carr McFall? Does that name sound about right to
you?
AMG: Yeah. I think he named after his Papa, I think. I know that Daddy owned a
(post) shop or something like that, but he was already dead. Dr. McFall was the best. He
had his office not far from the hospital because his patients was there, too. Yes, very nice
man. He looked good, too. I didn't have no money, but my aunt used to sometimes doing
laundry work at the house, so he was always nice and never asked me about no money
because he knew I ain’t have none. I did give him what we could though.
CW: So, did you have your baby at the hospital?
AMG: Yeah. He born early, too. I was having so much pain, and we walked right
all the way. We walked all the way, all the way, child, to that hospital. Dr. McFall helped
me push him right on out. He really did good things for the hospital, though. After I had
my boy, my Momma started talking to me regular again, and I made my way back to
Hungry Neck. She was really in the church then, and I’d been going, too.
CW: What church did you all attend?
AMG: Oh, Baby, we attend Goodwill AME. I remember we took collections in
church for the hospital then. It was like a lot of people was going to the city to get seen

�10

Anne Marie Gilliard

by them doctors. There was another doctor, too. I can’t remember him, but a boy been at
the Basket Festival we had right there in Mount Pleasant. It had to be at least ‘55 because
my Daddy died then. They was telling people that the hospital needed money, and they
were taking up money. People was giving them, too.
CW: Okay, did you stay in Mount Pleasant after you had your son?
AMG: I met my late husband Willy not too long after that, and we moved way out
to Awendaw, so I didn't go across the bridge no more like that. We’d been married, but
his first, you know, he was married, but his first wife had been dead a long time. So, we
had another boy in ‘61. He was born at home by Miss Treddam. She was a midwife back
then.
CW: Okay, so did you ever go back to the hospital on Cannon Street?
AMG: No. I remember when it moved. It was in the paper. People, like “they’d
done give the niggers a new hospital”. I heard this white man say that clean out his
mouth. I really stayed in the far country then. My days in Charleston as being a young
girl then. I remember when Dr. McFall died. It’s been sad. A lot of the churches in
Awendaw and Mount Pleasant sent flowers to the family because he was really
something. Nobody said nothing bad about that man. They said the hospital died right
after him, too. Is that all you need, Honey? I’m really getting tired. I still got a lot to do
before we move out from here.

End of recording.

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&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement&lt;/li&gt;
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                <text>Anne Marie Gilliard (b. 1928) was born in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. Her father was a farmer and her mother a seamstress and washerwoman. Gilliard attended school until the fourth grade and soon after started working with her mother mending and ironing clothes. In this interview, she remembers going with her sick sister to the Cannon Hospital in downtown Charleston. The trip would take all day and the building was old and dilapidated, but the nurses were kind and professional. Gilliard reflects on the penury of living in Charleston and negotiating relationships with white residents but also with upper-class blacks. She states that people from the rural areas distrusted both white and black doctors and the medications they prescribed. Gilliard recalls she was a teenager when she discovered the places for dancing and drinking. She met a musician from Chicago and started singing in clubs, but when she got pregnant, he abandoned her. Later, she got married to another man and had another son. The family relocated on Awendaw and she rarely made it back to Charleston.</text>
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