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TRANSCRIPT - ANN CALDWELL
Interviewee: ANN CALDWELL
Interviewer: KIERAN TAYLOR
Interview Date: JANUARY 27, 2017
Location: CHARLESTON, SC
Length: 72 min.
KIERAN TAYLOR: Make sure we’re—you know all about this, but it’s got to be
up pretty close. It’s a good mic, but not a great mic. Just to get us started and maybe for
the sake the recording?
ANN CALDWELL: Can I hold it?
KT: Yeah, would you prefer to hold it? The only thing—and I might turn this
around and just see if there’s any kind of scuffle noise. But, I think that should be good.
This is a vocalist clearly who wants to hold her own mic. Ms. Caldwell, just for the sake
of ID’ing the recording, can you say your full name and where and when you were born?
AC: My real birthdate? My name is Ann Caldwell. I was born in Denmark, South
Carolina, November, 15 in the 1900s.
KT: That gives us a lot to work with, we’ll leave it at that.
AC: 1952.
KT: Tell me, what was your first musical memory?
AC: My goodness. I wasn’t raised in Denmark, but we occasionally attended
Springfield Church in Denmark, South Carolina. If you’re not sure about where Denmark
is, it’s in Bamberg County. If you are looking at a map Orangeburg sits at the top of
Bamberg County. So, if you are ever wanting to go there, God only knows what for,
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that’s where it is.
But, in the church there was a capella singing. There was a piano, but nobody ever
played that piano. It was still in a heap on the floor when we went back to tend to my
mother’s gravesite. She is buried in the Springfield Cemetery near the church. So, I think
that was kind of my first, if you want to go with a recollection of singing, that’s when I
kind of started remembering it.
KT: Are there specific memories of being in that church and hearing that music?
AC: Not really, because my family moved away from Denmark and settled in
Charleston about 1955. So, whenever we visited it was always in the summer time
because I do not remember Springfield Church in the winter. There was no air
conditioning and maybe there was heat, but we never had to be concerned about it
because we never went back to Springfield in the wintertime. Picnics in the cemetery
yard, stuff like that. It was always services at night. We never went in the daytime.
It was always night services. So, again I had one memory of Springfield where
everybody was singing. There was a lot of singing going on and all of a sudden, the lights
went out. When the lights go out in a place way back in Denmark it gets pitch black dark.
I actually thought I had suddenly gone blind. What was interesting was that the music
never stopped. They never stopped singing. They kept right on singing in the dark until
the lights finally came on again. So, I have that memory of it.
KT: Your memories then of Denmark are not of living there necessarily, but of
visiting and being with family. Do you consider yourself a Charleston native or?
AC: I would say yeah, but if anybody asks I’ll always go back to well I was born
in Denmark, South Carolina and I have to tell you all this because when I get to heaven
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momma’s going to ask me why didn’t you tell them where you were from? So, I have
clearer memories of being in Charleston than I do of being in Denmark.
KT: People who were born in Charleston might challenge you on it as well if
you’re not born here.
AC: They just might.
KT: You were basically three years old or so when you moved to Charleston?
AC: Yeah, my father got a job in Charleston. Denmark is basically a lumber town.
At the time we left, it was dirt roads, lots of wooded areas. Nobody had indoor plumbing,
everybody had the outhouse. I remember outhouses and chicken coops.
KT: Where did you move in Charleston?
AC: I remember 781A East Bay Street. The Sanders Clyde School was where it is
now, but it was all just one story. One story, again dirt yards. There wasn’t a whole lot of
pavement, but that’s where we lived for a while.
KT: I’m thinking about two blocks north of the Cigar Factory?
AC: Yes. In fact, we lived right next door to a lady whose name is Ms. Babe. I’m
amazed at my memory because it’s really bad. But, I remember Ms. Babe. She worked at
the Cigar Factory. I believe her daughter did as well. But, I remember the Cigar Factory
as a cigar factory and not what it is now.
KT: It’s a place to get a $4 cup of coffee today. But, that’s where many working
class Charlestonians, black and white, made a living for the American Tobacco
Company. Where there other musicians or musical people in the family?
AC: Not really. The only person that came close to it was my father who whistled.
I learned to whistle. My mother wasn’t pleased about that because young ladies don’t
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whistle. I’m sorry, I whistled. That’s what I learned from my father.
He never sang, he never played an instrument. He just whistled. I’m the one that
picked up the habit of whistling. My brother didn’t pick it up, my sister didn’t pick it up.
I got it. Don’t ask me to whistle, I can't whistle on command.
KT: I was about to.
AC: I can't whistle on command, it hasn’t happened yet.
KT: At some point, was there a popular music that you identified with and said
yeah, that’s something that really speaks to my experience as a young person? Something
that got you even more kind of involved or interested in music?
AC: I really didn’t become interested in music until I was much older. At that
time everybody knew gospel, and you knew R&B. They had two major radio stations.
One of them was WPAL, that was a black radio station, any artist that was black was
played on WPAL. Whether they were R&B or gospel.
And there was TMA, before TMA became talk radio. TMA played everything
else. So, I kind of bided my time between both of them. WPAL would play gospel in the
morning. Before we would go to school my mother would put on the radio and we’d
listen to gospel music.
Of course, by a certain time of the day the gospel stopped and it went to the R&B,
so we heard groups like the Mighty Clouds of Joy, Mahalia Jackson, Five Blind Boys,
Dorothy Norwood. We heard all those. Even Sam Cooke, if anybody knows of Sam
Cooke. When Sam Cooke was doing gospel.
KT: With the Soul Stirrers?
AC: With the Soul Stirrers. Then there was TMA that was playing everything
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else. Sarah Vaughn the one pop song she ever did was on TMA. George Maharis that did
Route 66. The Drifters. They kind of bided their time between the two different groups,
but basically more of the white artists were on PAL.
KT: How about your church experience in Charleston? Was you family a church
going family and was there music at the church that had any particular influence?
AC: Yeah, there was music in the church. Everybody went to church except
daddy. Daddy had no use for church at that time in life. He went later on, I’m talking
years later. Momma would send us to Sunday school and then she’d come on later.
Everybody would sit in the front row in church because you couldn’t misbehave
with all the kids sitting in the front row because momma could see you acting up in the
back and the preacher could see you acting up from the front. There was a lot of singing.
In the city, they had organs and pianos. So, there was a lot of gospel music. A lot of
gospel and there was probably some spirituals. I didn’t participate in any choirs at that
time, like I said I was grown I guess when I finally got into a choir. But, for the most part
we sat and listened to everybody else sing.
KT: Even through high school, you had no sort of inkling that you might want to
be a musician?
AC: Nope.
KT: Tell me about that then, what are the key sort of steps that made you to begin
thinking about well this might be something that I have some talent for and it might offer
some possibilities?
AC: I was a closet singer. You all wouldn’t know it, but record players were
almost as big as this thing. It was pieces of furniture. There were no headphones. I would
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literally lay down in front of the record player.
At that time, you had records, you could stack them six to a stack and they’d fall
down and play them. I was singing along. I do have that recollection it was, I think, my
mother that kind of made me do something. Again, I was married, pregnant when I sang
my first solo in church. I was singing with a group called the Power of Faith Gospel
Singers. It was a quartet, three women, one guy.
They more or less talked me into doing it. They said you’ve got to sing a solo. I
don’t want to do that. Yes, you’re going to sing the solo. So, I went ahead and did it. I
think two or three weeks later I had the baby, but I did my first solo before my daughter
was born and she is now forty-one. So, that’s how far back that goes.
KT: What church was that?
AC: That was Mt. Zion AME Church. On Glebe Street, it’s still there.
KT: Is that still your church?
AC: No, it is not.
KT: That was one of your churches was down at Mt. Zion. Approaching this first
solo, did that make you anxious, or by that time did you have the confidence to share
your gifts with the public?
AC: I was nervous as all get out, but all the stuff that I had been listening to along
and along kind of played into it because I had been listening to R&B. I had been listening
to pop. I had been listening to the spirituals. I had been listening to Mahalia Jackson and
then there was the Nancy Wilson’s and the Supremes and all of that kind of played into it,
so I was kind of doing stuff in church that nobody else was doing. Do I remember the
first song? Yes.
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I was one of the fewest singers who was ending songs a certain way. With my
soul (sings) nobody was doing that. Where’d that come from? I’m not sure. I did kind of
the ballads in church. I did all the slow stuff. I did not get into the hand clapping thing at
that time.
KT: So, that kind of unique dimension to your singing very early on, was that
reflective of the pop influences or jazz influences? How would you describe that?
AC: That was more of the pop, R&B stuff I was hearing in churches where
improvisation was done. There was a lot of improvisation in the churches. So, I kind of
picked that up and pretty much what I say made my own soup and that was my signature
to always do those highs and lows and kind of mix it up a little bit. As far as jazz, I really
didn’t get into jazz until maybe 1990s. I didn’t hear that much jazz.
It was still around, it’s just that I didn’t travel in those circles. It was always the
gospel, it was always the R&B, pop things. That’s where I was. Pop and R&B, in my
mother’s house was something you didn’t do on Sunday’s. You are not going to sing that
stuff on Sunday’s you have to sing gospel on Sunday’s. Don’t sing that secular stuff on
Sunday’s.
KT: How did that go over? Because I’m sure there’d be some expectation at Mt.
Zion that the gospel music should sound a certain way, that the spirituals should be sung
a certain way. Was there any resistance to your sort of R&B sensibilities?
AC: At that time, there might have been. I was never conscious of it. It was just
common knowledge, everybody listened to the stuff during the week, but then you
listened to gospel in the churches. I think I have a recollection of Sam Cooke getting in
trouble because at the time they called it cross over when he was doing gospel and then
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he was coming back with doing the R&B thing, but he was influenced by the pop. He
brought that into his gospel singing which is kind of probably got him in trouble. But, the
girls thought it was cool. At that time, it’s not that case anymore.
KT: But, the lines were beginning to blur between sacred and secular music I
guess.
AC: The Winans, I would say erased that line with what they were doing with the
contemporary thing. I think the line began to be about invisible about that time.
KT: At what point then do you begin to think about this as a professional career?
AC: I had a regular job and I’d had a regular job for a very long time. I began,
later on after daughter was born, and all that. I began working with a party band. I
initially took vocal lessons and I studied with a woman who sang with the Metropolitan
Opera,[Carolyn] June Bonner. Late June Bonner now. But she understood the importance
of all kinds of music.
So, I was working with her afterwards. But, I had the regular job and one of the
guys said you might want to do something with June Bonner, the vocal thing, and then
somebody else said there’s a guy who has a band. I’m probably ahead of it. Prior to that I
was doing theatre for about three years. It was the guy who was in charge of theatre said
well you might want to get in touch with this guy, he has a party band and he works a lot.
So, I got involved with him and we worked together for quite a few years. I was
the chick singer in the band and, I think, that’s when I kind of started dabbling into jazz
and not knowing that I was doing that. I did something, it was probably scatting or
something, and one of the musicians, George Kenny at the end of the gig came over and
was bowing to me like this. I knew he was into the jazz scene, so apparently, I had done
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something, but it was just a collection of things I hear. Like I said, jazz didn’t really make
its impact on me until about the 1990s. Then I really started to get into it and be involved
with it.
KT: Where were you working and what years are we talking about when you are
kind of doing theatre, but then transitioning into musical performance?
AC: Around 1980s, 90s. I was a draftsman. We didn’t have the politically correct
stuff going on. I was a draftsman on a board, then, when that changed to computer
generated drafting I decided I really don’t want to do that. It was the strain of going to
work in the day, running home, changing your clothes, going out and working with the
band until late at night, going back home and getting a nap because it wasn’t generally
sleep. Getting up, going to work. Hey, we got a gig this weekend. Okay, here we go. We
got a gig tonight and then you go and do that.
And I actually sat down and said I can't keep doing this. I called it the Nestea
plunge. I don’t know if any of you have ever seen the commercial about Nestea plunge
where the guy falls in the pool because that’s what he likens the taste of iced tea to a
plunge. I took the Nestea plunge and I did what they tell you not to do. That is, don’t quit
your... I quit my day job and the following morning I woke up and looked at the ceiling
and said what in the heck did I just do? I’ve been doing it and never really looked back.
KT: I saw a notice from 1982 in the newspaper in which you’re singing at St. Paul
AME in North Charleston, I think, and your billed as a kind of singer/songwriter/folk
person because it’s a singer and guitarist. So, at some point you picked up the guitar.
AC: I did, and I laid it down quite a few times. That was actually my first solo
concert at St. Paul and you’ve got to tell me where you saw that. A lady who worked at
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the postal office found out that I could sing and she asked would you come and do
something? So, it was a children’s concert that I did. I pulled my guitar out, in fact there
is a picture, I can't find it now.
A drawing that someone had taken with me holding a guitar in one hand and
dragging a cross in the other. So, at that point I f I were going to do it for a living I
already decided I’m going to be a gospel music singer. So, that’s what I’m going to do. It
was just like that.
KT: Does that pre-date the party band experience?
AC: Yes.
KT: What was the name of the party band and about when you joined? That’s
something I want to explore a little bit.
AC: The party band came after. I performed with the Porgy and Bess production
that was done in 1990 after Hurricane Hugo. It was the David Archer Band. He is a
booking agent as well. He books different artists. It was kind of interesting and fun.
I got to semi-dress up because I didn’t do the cocktail dress thing, that was just
not me. And I got to play with some very interesting musicians; George Kenny was one
of them, David Archer played the guitar, Charlie whatever his last name was played bass,
and a really weird strange drummer. So, not only did I learn how to sing with these guys,
I learned the nuances in that life. How musicians can be and all that. It was weird, it was
funny, it was interesting. I find all that information a lot more interesting than the music
itself sometimes because there are stories there. But, I started working with David
Archer.
KT: So much I’d like to know about this. Just in terms of your repertoire. I’m
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assuming you’re doing popular R&B covers of the period. Who are you playing to; clubs,
weddings, what are the gigs like? Give us a little bit more of the flavor of the band.
AC: It was a party band. You did the weddings, you did the corporate events.
Most of it because John Kenny and I were the only two African American players, but
most of what we did was cover stuff. Respect played by a predominantly white band is
interesting to say the least, but we were doing that kind of stuff. It was the party music.
Whatever was coming out of Motown.
Mostly The Drifters and what you might call beach music, we call R&B. Others
call beach music. Dance stuff. It wasn’t a performance, we were just playing to an
audience that was either eating or occasionally they’d dance or whatever. It was
background music. If somebody wanted to dance. You’d have the bride and the groom
that would come up and they’d do their first dance. For the most part the kids loved the
fact that we had this really slick dance floor and the kids would be sliding all over that
while you’re playing.
KT: I’m thinking about this from the perspective. You’re a mother. You’re
coming out of a church context and also had a straight corporate job. Tell me about the
night life. Did that pose personal conflicts? You’ve described it as weird and interesting,
but say a little bit more about that.
AC: I didn’t have much of a night life. Out of high school I didn’t date much. I
had a guy that I was dating at the time and thought he wanted to marry me, but he came
to his senses and decided not. That’s fine. Then came the other guy. I was married with a
child. There wasn’t night life per se.
He was a Marine Corps Sargent, so he did his Marine Corps Sargent stuff in the
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day and came home at night. That was life. Hey, I’ll see you later I’m going on a gig.
Make sure Alisson is in bed by such and such a time, I’ll be back. Of course, I’m
divorced now, but that was pretty much it. My night life was around the band. If I didn’t
have the band I probably wouldn’t have gone out.
KT: You said there were some stories from those days, tell us a story that kind of
gives us a feel for the band.
AC: The drummer, I said was a little strange. He was very meticulous about how
he set up his drums. He set them up and then he’d stand back and look at them. Then he’d
go and move the snare an inch or so and then he’d sit down and look around again and
he’d get up and kind of move something somewhere. Now, we’re all standing here
waiting for him to get situated and he keeps doing these little things. You could see the
guys going oh God. I found it quite comical.
I’m just the chick singer. You’re just going to tell me when to sing and I’ll just
sing, but these guys have to wait for you to get set up. Another guy came in, Charlie Chuck, we called him Chuck. Chuck was pretty calm, cool, and mild mannered. But,
Chuck walked in one day with his guitar and bag that held something, I don’t know what
it was. Slammed his guitar one place, threw the bag off and it made this really loud
crashing sound.
We’re going what’s wrong with Chuck? What had happened was, on his way
there his amp fell out of the back of the car and he had to go back to see if he could find
it. He was not a happy camper. It’s stuff like that.
KT: I wanted to go back to the influence of June Bonner who is somebody who
more people should know about in Charleston, I think. Can you talk a little bit about that
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relationship and what that meant to you professionally and personally?
AC: June had a different teaching style or coaching style. I studied with June for
about ten years. This was ten years of walking into her studio doing thirty minutes of
vocalizing. But, we would also do some vocalizing, we talk, we vocalize, we talk, we
talk, we talk, we talk, we vocalize. I think June’s style of teaching prepared us to be
singers not just to sing, but to be singers.
In fact, whenever there were auditions everybody knew who the June Bonner
students were the minute they walked in the room. They just knew who they were. Again,
June appreciated the fact that there was more than one kind of music. This is a woman
who sang with the Metropolitan Opera and decided to leave because in June’s words she
didn’t want to get so old that they’d have to put her out. She was in her late fiftys/sixties
when we first got together.
So, she had most of her singers were active in the theatre. They were doing bands.
They were doing all kinds of music. It wasn’t unusual to walk into June’s studio and hear
them practicing something and you hear all this R&B coming out of the room. June, who
could not dance a lick, would be moving around in the room. You’d hear that and I
appreciate the fact that she was instrumental in making me a singer. In fact, the second
major concert I ever did was a gospel music concert at her club called then, the Coconut
Club. I did gospel at the Coconut Club which was at the old Seamen’s Church on the
Market. That’s where she was.
KT: You worked with her for ten years? At what point does the teaching
relationship end? I’m just wondering how does the mentor say to the mentee “that’s it,
you’re done”. How does that work, I’m curious?
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AC: Just like that. That’s it. You’re done. “Ann, you don’t need to come here
anymore”. It ended just like that. I started working which made it a little difficult to go to
the vocal training thing.
We began talking about different things. I taught briefly for a little while, but it
was about that simple. Ann, she’s the only one who could take a one syllable word and
make it two. Ann, you don’t need to come anymore and away I went. I still saw her. I
would still pop by to talk to June because I had to talk to June. If I were having vocal
issues I would just June, I’m having this issue, can I come by and let me know what’s
going on. We would do that. So, we stayed in contact.
KT: Was the end sudden or had you talked about it before? Was it just one day?
How did you feel about that?
AC: We kind of knew it was coming. It’s kind of like a bad marriage, I guess. The
end is coming and again I never stopped seeing June, I just never kept coming as a
student anymore. We became friends. She was a mentor friend. I always saw June.
Whenever I was performing anywhere June would come and she was careful
never to let us know she was coming. I did a production in Atlanta with a group and the
group came to Charleston to do the production. June sent this enormous floral
arrangement. It covered wherever it was sitting on. Nobody understood, where’d that
come from? Oh, that’s from June. I could barely get the thing in the car, but that’s the
kind of support that June continued to give to all of her students.
KT: You’re imitation reminds me that maybe this is one of your lesser known
talents is your ear for accents and mimicry.
AC: It’s one of the ways that I amuse myself as a child.
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KT: How did that develop?
AC: It just did. I spent a lot of time by myself. I didn’t consider myself street
smart. My brother and sister were. My sister was more street smart than my brother and it
just fell by the wayside with me because I didn’t spend a whole lot of time doing school
activities and such.
I would watch old movies and listening to classical recordings which kind of
drove my father crazy because he’s into blue thing. But, he tolerated his crazy oldest
daughter’s passion for listening to different things. I would listen to old movies and
characters. My thing is “the calla lilies are in bloom”: That’s my Audrey Hepburn thing.
But, it was how I amused myself. I wasn’t thinking about it, I just figured everybody
must be doing this.
KT: So, clearly you have an ear for sounds, music, and voices.
AC: A little bit. Just a little.
KT: I might be jumping out of order here.
AC: I have been.
KT: The Magnolia Singers, how does that come about?
AC: That was formed by, to be honest with you, a guy I was dating at the time
who thought such a group needed to exist. It was about fourteen people strong. When the
relationship came to a close, gladly, I kept the group. It was one of those somebody
would fall apart and I’d go get them and bring them back. Then somebody else would
leave and I’d go get—and I decided let’s not do that.
Let’s see how far the group will fall before it stops falling to pieces. We got down
to five singers and I left it at five singers. We are now six singers strong, but I left it at
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five singers. I could pile five singers into a bus, I could throw them into my car if I had
to. But, I think, we’re into the double digits now that we’ve been together.
We were doing a regular production at the Circular Church called Praise House.
But, what has happened is that somebody’s going to school fulltime, somebody’s going
into the ministry, somebody else is doing this, that, and the other thing. It got the place
where okay, we need to stop right now because there is too much going on. I think we
call it burn out. I think there was some burn out and we did our last performances for the
season in June. We’ve been doing things off and on. We’ve done some festivals, some
concerts, but the group is still intact.
KT: But, not doing the regular Circular gig? What was the relationship between
that and then Sound of Charleston? Was that the name of the program you did, or was
that a whole separate?
AC: That’s a whole separate thing. The Sound of Charleston is a production about
the history of Charleston. So, they covered the Civil War and I covered the spirituals. The
Praise House is mostly the activity that went on in the gathering of the ancestors who
composed the music and their praise house experience.
KT: Say a little bit more about that, as we talked about this interview we went
back and forth over my phrasing of this question or this idea and I still don’t know that
I’m there. But, I am curious about the influence of history and culture on Charleston
music, specifically gospel and spiritual traditions. Can you talk a little bit about that? To
what degree is there a unique Charleston sound with regards to its praise music?
AC: It’s kind of hard to explain the unique Charleston sound. It’s one of those
things when you hear it you know it’s unique to our area. The music was actually
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influenced by the history, especially with the spirituals. When you look at why the
spirituals exist, they had a lot of reasons to exist. They were coded message songs; Swing
Low Sweet Chariot, Wade in the Water. Songs like that were coded message songs that
were used when the Underground Railroad was in its heyday.
The music expressed feelings, emotions, and conditions. If you listen to it, you’ll
hear what was going on around the ancestors. The spirituals is the music of an unhappy
people. People think that the spirituals were sung because this was a bunch of happy
people. They were not. You’ve got to remember back in those days it was nothing like
tranquilizers, Prozac, or Lexapro. They didn’t have all that to make themselves feel good.
The phrase was they came together to sing themselves happy and to shout their
troubles out. What is amazing to me is after doing that they went right back into the
situation that caused them to have to sing and shout. This was their way of surviving. The
music is documentation of what’s going on around them. Lots of songs did that. There
are folks who say oh that’s just slave music, no listen to it and find out what they’re
doing.
If you listen to the blues, the blues does the same thing. The blues describe
feelings and conditions. The rhythms were used, sometimes in the fields as work songs
and I’ve seen them used on chain gangs as well, to set the pace of work. When the song
was sung fast the pace of work was fast, when the song was sung slower the pace of work
was slower. Sometimes, when they couldn’t stop they would use the slower pace to rest
when they couldn’t stop because you could get into trouble if you were not in the right
rhythm. If somebody’s working too slow and everybody’s working real fast.
You’d get beaten pretty severely. What they do is to use that rhythm to ‘draw
�Ann Caldwell
18
level the angel I’m coming down’ (sings) and when you’d speed it up ‘draw member,
draw’ (sings). Everybody is doing the exact same thing, so if everybody is slow together
nobody’s getting in trouble. When it was used as coded message songs. Swing Low
Sweet Chariot, the chariot was the Underground Railroad and when it talks about the
chariot swinging low, if something is swinging low it’s close. So, that was the signal that
was given whenever it was time to leave the plantation to go up north to Canada which
was also referred to in the music as Canaan.
It was either called Canaan, home, promise land, heaven. So, the music had its
meaning. I would think that life determined what the music was going to be. It’s kind of
like feeling bad music, break up music. We know what happens, we break up and we
want to hear a song about breaking up. There are artists who write songs about breaking
up. It’s the activity that causes the music to be born.
KT: Is that African American music? Or is that Low Country music?
AC: It was born in the Lowcountry. When you think the slaves came through
here, African Americans created it. A lot of it was created here. The musical activity in
Charleston covers spirituals, blues, R&B. It was born here because the ancestors, I took
to calling them, created this music out of their own life, their hardship.
The slavery trade was pretty prevalent here. It is said that Amazing Grace, though
the lyrics were created by John Newton it is said that the melody sounds like a west
African sorrow chant. I asked myself the question, where would he have heard a West
African sorrow chant? He was a slave trader. He’s going to hear it on that boat. So, they
brought that here along with the rhythms.
KT: As you’re developing as a vocalist, as an artist, had you had the opportunity
�Ann Caldwell
19
to spend much time in Johns Island churches or Wadmalaw churches to hear—I’m
curious whether there were distinguishing characteristics between the Sea Island
experience and the peninsula experience.
AC: I’ve even been told that there are. There was a woman that I knew from a
church I attended that when she heard a song sung a certain way she said oh they sing
that differently out on James Island, or they sing that differently out on Wadmalaw.
Yeah, there is a slight bit of difference in how it’s sung on the different islands. Yeah,
that does exist. I have sung in those churches where you can kind of hear it. There is a
difference.
KT: We’re running up against the problem, I think, of talking about music
because so much of this is intuitive and you know it when you hear it. You almost hate to
reduce it to words. It challenges our ability sometimes, I think, to describe those kinds of
nuances. I gather as a musician you feel it instinctively, but it might be hard to actually
pinpoint it and say yeah that’s why that sounds differently to me.
AC: I think that you kind of want to look at the similarities because when you
perform this kind of music in the settings that you do. African American people are very
passionate people. They love their power in music, be it spirituals, gospel, R&B,
whatever. There’s a reason behind the singing. Nobody just stands and sings.
People can relate to the song when it is sung. Even if the former President of the
United States sings Amazing Grace people grab hold of that because they connect with
the words in the song, the feelings, the emotions, and the activity. We are very animated
folks. We have the Usher’s March and the stomp and the ring shout and all that. There is
movement.
�Ann Caldwell
20
There is a lot of feeling and emotion in it. That’s the thing that makes all of it
similar. We don’t even hardly pay attention to the nuances. We just know. We’re just
having a wonderful time singing this stuff.
KT: Magnolia Singers bill themselves as presenting and correct me on the
wording here, but Gullah spirituals. What does that mean? Are you a Gullah artist?
AC: A lot of it is commercial now where you use the name. Let’s throw Gullah in
here and draw people into it. Gullah is a language. They talk about Gullah and Geechee.
Gullah kind of pertains to the inhabitants of the Sea Islands along South Carolina.
When you say Geechee then we’re talking of the inhabitants of Sea Islands along
Georgia. They are intertwined. You can interchange them. But, it’s the language. When
you talk about spirituals as opposed to gospel.
Spirituals had their birth in rural America when they were used in churches that
didn’t have musical accompaniment. They were out in the fields, you didn’t have that as
opposed to the gospel that moved into urban America where you had the accompaniment
and the message was now different. With the spirituals, we’re talking about the hope of
freedom. Once freedom presented itself and we had it the plantations went belly up.
We’re into urban America singing something different.
We have a different hope. The ancestors were people who had a lot of hope. A
hope of freedom, that came, then a hope of equality. Hearing the good news in the gospel
music because that’s what it means good news. The message changed. So, with the
Gullah we’re using the language. I’ve heard folks sing Kumbaya. Kumbaya, my Lord,
Kumbaya. Lord how come (00:52:14).
When I did the theatre, I did a line that said “sing for the (00:52:21) up the sky.
�Ann Caldwell
21
Sing for the live oak what stands so high. Sing for the people’s working the ground,
(00:52:26) their music (00:52:27) their music. (00:52:28) the sound”. It’s the language of
the ancestors. That’s who sang them. So, you’re going to hear that in what you call the
Gullah spirituals.
KT: It’s a term that changes depending on context. I know that I’ve spoken with
an older person from Johns Island for whom Gullah is an insult. That was something that
you were called. If you were Gullah it might suggest that you were country or you
weren’t sophisticated somehow. But, I think the notion of the term has changed over time
and it changes depending on who is talking.
AC: Actually, the word Geechee was the offensive word. If you were called
Geechee it wasn’t such a good thing. But, then that changed. They are interchangeable.
KT: What is the distinction there? What would it mean to be Geechee as opposed
to Gullah?
AC: I don’t think there’s much of a distinction.
KT: Yeah, but why would that be offensive and Gullah not?
AC: I’m not sure why and I was kind of amazed myself when I was first
introduced. Geechee, hmm, you just Geechee which kind of has the connotation that
you’re probably thinking of.
KT: A little rough too?
AC: It has to do with tribes. The Gullah word possibly comes from the Angola
tribe which supposedly was the first tribe that was brought into America for the slave
trade. So, it goes back to different tribes. But, it started out being offensive. I don’t think
it lasted very long. But, again it divides South Carolina from Georgia.
�Ann Caldwell
22
KT: So, you’ve performed for diverse audiences. I’m thinking about not only
white/black, but you’ve performed for a lot of tourists. I’m wondering if you just speak to
the public response to your singing and whether you see difference in the audience
reception and contexts. I am thinking that singing at Mt. Zion is different than teaching at
Circular, which is different than singing in an African American church on James Island.
Can you say a little bit about that?
AC: In regards to the spirituals do you mean?
KT: Really just any of your performing and how it’s received by different
audiences.
AC: It all depends on the arena. There is performance and then there’s
background. When you’re in a restaurant be it tourists or locals it’s background. There
are those who would like to hear it, but because of the noise going on in that particular
arena. Performance wise is totally different.
There is not much you can tell about being in a restaurant or a party or wedding
reception. People are there for another reason which some folks say aren’t you bothered
that people are making so much noise? It’s a restaurant, they have come here to eat,
drink, pick up a date, and go home. They are not here to hear me. Where performances
are different.
I’ve been fortunate to perform for various and sundry different types of people
and there are listeners. There are those who like to listen to the music. They like to hear
music done well and they respond to it. They are very receptive. Most of my audiences
are Caucasian, for spirituals, for anything.
People have their style of music. You have your jazz audiences that come out in
�Ann Caldwell
23
mass for the jazz. There are those who like the beach music. I had the pleasure of doing a
Pete Seeger concert with a friend of mine. There were people everywhere because they
could relate to the Pete Seeger’s, so we got to do that music. People like their music.
So, they will come out for their music. We did Women and Bowie, Women and
Young. We did all these different tribute shows. The funniest one was the Women and
Young where he does a song where somebody’s playing a broom. So, they decide I’m the
one that’s going to play the broom. I had never heard the song before. So, they said
you’re going to play the broom.
We found a way to get the broom sound. I’m sitting there and it was weird
because you can sense in the audience when people are waiting for something. They are
sitting here waiting for the broom solo. All I did was—
KT: This was Neil Young?
AC: Yeah, he did a song, I can't remember the name of the song. I didn’t even
sing it. I was just playing the broom. People have their music that they like. You can
sense things from an audience.
KT: I have so many more questions to follow up with you, but I do want to open
it up to see if there are questions from the group. Anyone want to jump in there? Because
I think we’ve got about 10-15 minutes. Yeah, Mr. Galloway.
GALLOWAY: You said you have kids, what do your kids do? Did your kids
follow in your footsteps at all?
AC: I have a daughter and two grandsons. My daughter is in health care. My
youngest grandson fancies himself a rap artist. He has been going into the studio. He’s
really quite good. The other one is into girls and snakes.
�Ann Caldwell
24
KT: Mr. Rice.
AC: Good morning.
RICE: Going back to what you said when you said the slaves had music. They
sung themselves happy and shouted their troubles out and then the chain gang and how
their pace determined how fast they worked. Today the singers in this day and age like
The Citadel Gospel Choir they sing for the mission of making Jesus famous. We love our
Jesus famous. I wanted to ask you what is one of your motivations? What are your
reasons for singing?
AC: Mine is a gift, a God given gift and I frankly feel obligated to sing. My
mission statement is to encourage, enlighten, enhance, engage. As long as I am doing that
with anything I do, especially in singing I am fulfilling my purpose. I think there was a
line in Chariots of Fire where one of the runners says “God made me to run fast and when
I run I feel his pleasure”. God made me to sing. When I sing, there are moments when I
feel his presence and his pleasure. It’s a gift he could have given, and probably has, given
somebody else in this room. But, that’s my take on it.
It is a God given gift. I am obligated to do with it what needs to be done. Whether
it’s gospel, blues, jazz, whatever and to keep it clean. There was a time when it wasn’t
thought wise to cross over, but in order to get into certain arenas, like I said I thought I
was going to be a gospel singer, but the pull wasn’t in that direction. Now, I find myself
in arenas in the company of people I would not have been in the company of had I stayed
in the gospel genre. Did I answer that?
KT: I think of you singing in these tribute shows singing David Bowie and Neil
Young. It is my sense that this is something of a new development in Charleston music.
�Ann Caldwell
25
These shows that, I think, bring together artists coming from diverse genres, but also
these are racially diverse and often times women led initiatives these shows. I am
wondering if you can, in your perception, how has the Charleston music scene changed in
recent years? What do you think has brought about some of those changes?
AC: It’s changed pretty much in the fashion that you’ve said. It brings together
divers audiences and its music that everybody can relate to, but I like the fact that we do
now have the diverse audiences. Whites as well can come to the gospel concerts. I hear
people say all the time man I remember when I was a child I heard black folks singing
gospel music and I was afraid to go into the church. What do you think would have
happened if I’d have gone in that church? I said they’d have said good of morning, give
you a bulletin and tell you to sit down.
But, now they are happening in arenas that are comfortable for people to walk
into theatres and music halls. A lot of the restaurants now are introducing gospel
brunches for people and people are flocking to them. I like the idea that the audiences are
now diverse and we’re reaching out to different people that we probably would not have
been in the vicinity of. They were listening to them, it’s just that they were listening over
here. Charleston, on Sunday morning was the most segregated day of the week and that’s
really not the case much anymore, especially with the mega churches and such.
KT: Other questions or comments? Anyone?
AC: This is your last chance. You’re going to wonder.
Woman voice: Ann Caldwell. Ann Caldwell. Then you’ll say oh snap.
KT: I have maybe a couple that we can squeeze in. Through the Magnolia
Singers, you’ve had some national television exposure? Or do I have that wrong?
�Ann Caldwell
26
AC: No, we’ve done the Today Show a couple of times and we sang in the
presence of Phylicia Rashad and somebody else who’s name I can't remember, it’ll
happen to you when you get this age. But, yeah, we’ve had a little bit of exposure.
KT: National TV. I would think more people watch those morning programs than
just about anything.
AC: I never do.
KT: I don’t either.
AC: It just goes by too fast. Okay, you get a snippet here and you’re gone.
KT: Was that just another gig? Were you anxious around that?
AC: Somebody said you’re going to do the Today Show, go do it. Kathy Lee was
there and all that. We sang and we were gone. It just comes and goes so fast. You’ve got
this many minutes to do something and then get off and go away.
KT: I also wanted to know, how has the Emmanuel massacre reflected in through
the musical community or how has the musical community changed or responded to the
events of the past year-and-a-half?
AC: I don’t believe the music has changed. It’s the medicine we lean on. It’s the
strength in the music. The music is still doing what the music has always done. It’s the
reason Barak Obama, who is not a great singer, can sing “Amazing Grace” and get the
response that he gets.
If you listen to those lyrics “through many dangers, toils, and snares we have
already come. It was grace that brought us safe thus far and grace will lead us on.” The
music is still doing what the music has always done. I think the whole incident has drawn
us closer as a people and what happened with the Emmanuel Nine is not unique to us. It’s
�Ann Caldwell
27
having things happen and immediately lean on the faith.
That was the first thing that happened when we all heard that. We just went to
prayer. We went into what we usually went into when this kind of tragedy strikes. We’ve
been living with this since we set foot in America. You had four little girls that were
bombed in a church in Alabama.
People who’ve been hung and beaten to death, we always went back to the faith
because we believe. It’s the hope that things will one day get better. Who was it, Sam
Cooke, did a song about the time that they singed the Civil Rights bill. Change going to
come. You always hear that hope.
You will always hear the hope in the back. Why do we forgive? Because it’s
better to forgive than not. I believe Mandela that said not forgiving is like swallowing
poison and waiting for the other person to die. We have to keep going.
The opposite of perseverance is to stop. When you stop, when you don’t forgive
you can't move on. There is still the hope, even today. We will always hope because
that’s the kind of people we are and we keep moving on. We celebrate our little successes
along the way.
When we finally got freedom that was something we celebrated ‘Free at last. Free
at last. Thank God all mighty, I’m free at last’ (sings). When we got past that and came
up to Civil Rights. They had to sing a bill for us to have stuff we should have been born
with.
Then the Civil Rights songs that preceded Civil Rights and came after Civil
Rights. Okay, we celebrate that little victory there and then we move onto the next thing.
Now, it’s justice. Justice, in my mind, seems to be the hardest thing for us to have. We
�28
Ann Caldwell
still don’t feel as though justice is equal, but that’s a victory again we will celebrate when
it’s time to celebrate and then move to the next thing.
KT: Thank you very much for coming to class.
AC: Thank you.
KT: Great.
End of recording.
Edited ML 4/17/2017
�
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Oral Histories
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
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Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
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<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
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Publisher
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Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kieran Walsh Taylor
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ann Cadwell
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 12 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
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Title
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Oral History of Ann Cadwell, interviewed by Kieran Walsh Taylor, 27 January, 2017
Subject
The topic of the resource
Women musicians
Women musicians, Black
African American musicians
African Americans--South Carolina
Description
An account of the resource
Singer and storyteller Ann Caldwell was born in Denmark, South Carolina in 1952. Her family moved to Charleston when she was three years old. Her early musical memories relate to church music and the long hours she spent listening to gospel and R&B on the radio. However, her interest in pursuing a professional musical career would develop much later. She was an adult when she had her first solo concert at St. Paul AME Church in the City of North Charleston in 1982. In the interview, Caldwell recalls the challenges of being a working mother and a party band singer as well as her experiences singing with the David Archer Band. She also talks about the Magnolia Singers, a Charleston-based vocal group she founded, which gained national recognition. Caldwell reflects about what it means for her to perform Gullah Spirituals, the music of her ancestors to different audiences. She discusses her participation in programs and events with musicians of different styles and traditions such as the Women & Series at the Music Hall and talks about what it takes to be a working musician in Charleston. Finally, she reflects about the Charleston music community response to the Mother Emanuel tragedy and affirms, “I don’t believe the music has changed. It’s the medicine we lean on. “
Creator
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
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Working Charleston
Publisher
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The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
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2017-01-27
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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application/pdf
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English
Type
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Text
Identifier
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/611
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Charleston (S.C.)
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PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT - OSEI T. CHANDLER
Interviewee: OSEI T. CHANDLER
Interviewer: KIERAN TAYLOR
Interview Date: FEBRUARY 23, 2017
Location: CHARLESTON, SC
Length: 68 min.
KIERAN TAYLOR: All right, well, let's... we'll go ahead and get started here.
And I would say if for the recording, if you could just say your name and where and
when you were born.
OSEI CHANDLER: My name is Osei Terry Chandler. I try to help people with
that pronunciation by having them think of The Star-Spangled Banner so they don't call
me OJ or OC. I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1946. I'm 70 years old. I can hardly
believe it myself. I have to say it out loud just to make sure it fits in.
KT: What was your first musical memory?
OC: Adam Parker asked me that recently, and I had a chance to think about it.
The first song I can remember was “Mama, Look a Boo-Boo”. You know this song,
anybody? It goes like this. The lyrics are something like this. It's a calypso song. (sings)
"Mama, look a Boo-Boo they shout. That is your daddy, shut up your mouth."
Oh, jeez, I can't remember that. Oh, "Oh, no, my daddy can't be ugly so." That's what it
is. They call him - Boo-Boo is the name of the father. That's what they're teasing him as,
and the song says, "Mama, look a Boo-Boo they shout." She says, "Don't say that. That's
your daddy." "Oh, no. My daddy can't be ugly so. Shut your mouth. Go away. Mama look
at Boo-Boo dey."
�Osei T. Chandler
My father was a... he was a musician. He had his own calypso band, and he also
played jazz, as well. And so, he was a calypsonian from Barbados, Alleynedale,
Barbados. I didn't grow up with him past nine years old, seven years old. My parents
were already fighting when I was seven and so we kind of got scattered around to
different foster homes and stuff and by the time I was nine, they were divorced and we
were staying with my mom. Yeah.
KT: And this was in what part of New York City?
OC: Brooklyn, New York, Yeah, Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood.
KT: So, your... so, it's a musical family, obviously, with your father. How about
you in terms of playing an instrument?
OC: Well... me and my father weren't close when I was growing up, but I tried to
be close to him. He was a saxophonist, and when I was in high school, I joined the band,
tried to learn how to play saxophone, but they didn't have any more saxophones. I had to
play the clarinet. And I was so good that Mr. Fisherfeld, the band director, would often
say, "Chandler, you just finger. Don't blow." You know, so, I wasn't real good at it, and
my father didn't help me with it at all.
But my mother had a lot of music around the house also, and I was grateful for
that, because she had people like Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald and she loved the
music of Nat King Cole and Nancy Wilson and Ray Charles. So, she was singing all the
time. She had a beautiful voice. Yeah. She wasn't a professional, though.
KT: Yeah. Tell me, what, you know, growing up in Brooklyn, what was your
relationship? You know, I'm thinking in your early teens here or into your teen years.
What would be your relationship to Harlem? Would Harlem be a place you would visit?
2
�Osei T. Chandler
3
And I'm thinking here of the rich kind of musical culture and, just more broadly, AfricanAmerican culture in Harlem. What's that like for a young black man in Brooklyn?
OC: Well, I didn't get to Harlem too much until I was a senior in high school. We
had some problems at home, and I started playing what we called hooky back then my
senior year. And I spent a lot of time in Harlem then, but not with music but just looking
around and looking at the culture and seeing people like Daddy Grace and Malcolm X
speak.
See, in 125th Street, I'd been to the Apollo a few times. And so, that was very
interesting. But Brooklyn is very, very rich with a musical history of its own. And I do
recall seeing a lot of music in Brooklyn. For example, you have Motown Revue. They
wouldn't call it that, but you had one band, and you have Marvin Gaye. You'd have The
Shirelles. You'd have The Supremes and all those people performing three or four songs
each. The Temptations and Smokey Robinson and The Miracles. So, we did get to go to
some of those shows, and it was very - three dollars and you get in and see everybody at
the Fox and the Paramount and things like that. Yeah. It was great.
KT: And you went pretty far away for college, though.
OC: I went as far away as I could go, because it was going to be — when I finally
did get back into school, in those days, the guidance counselor helped you go to college
and send in your application, help you send in the application. So, I was out of school for
about thirty days, almost thirty days, almost an entire month. It probably was February
into March. And my guidance counselor came to my house and did everything but cuss
me out, okay, kind of, sort of. "Get your behind back in there."
And so, there was like — I was accepted at Howard University, which is in
�Osei T. Chandler
4
Washington, D.C., a short, six-hour drive, and I had a roommate that was going to be one
of my good friends and we were going to party. And I realized that I would need, if I was
going to be successful and be the first person in my family to go to college and graduate,
I'd have to not be coming back home on a regular basis and not be partying so much. So,
I went to MacMurray College, excuse me, in Jacksonville, Illinois. And it was so far, it
took me a twenty-four hour bus ride for me to get there. I made number eleven out of a
thousand students. Eleven of us were African-American. It was a culture shock for me
and for them, you know.
KT: Why MacMurray? I mean, who had heard of MacMurray, of all the places to
end up?
OC: I was — I had choices of Cole College, Kent College, all these little schools.
I guess it was integration time and they needed the federal funds or whatever, so they had
to get a few blacks in there. And I selected MacMurray out of them, because they had the
best financial break for me, you know. I had scholarships and grants, and it was just like I
could have picked it out of a hat, you know?
But my whole four years there, no one was ever able to — no one ever came to
see me except my good friend, Mark, who was going to college at Central Michigan, and
he came to visit me on the first Christmas when I was still on the basketball team, which I
didn't have a basketball scholarship. I just — they just figured he's tall, he's black, he can
play ball. Little did they know.
KT: Had you played in high school?
OC: No, I did not. I played in parks and, you know, gymnasiums, but, no, not
really, yeah.
�Osei T. Chandler
5
KT: Was there an African-American community in Jacksonville?
OC: There was, and I'm happy to say in my sophomore year, end of my
sophomore year, beginning of my junior year, I organized a Black Student Union, which
we coordinated with a college across town called Illinois College, another small college,
and with the students there, and we formed an organization that helped tutor for
remediation and acceleration the black kids, black high-school kids.
It was a bit of a challenge, because in those days, "Negro" was the going word
and if people in the — the black people in the community there, they didn't like the word
"Black." So, what we had to do was go to the churches and explain to them why we were
trying to be part of a new national movement to provide some identity, positive identity
for the students. And eventually, they did let us do that, so that was a good experience.
In fact, I got a letter last week from the college, and they wanted me to come back
for Homecoming. I'm going to get a Distinguished Career Award from MacMurray
College. Yeah.
KT: Are you going to make it back to Jacksonville?
OC: I'm going to go. I'm going to ride in the parade. I'm going to ride in a
convertible and how do you all do it like that. I'm going to do that thing like that.
KT: And this is the fall of '64 when you start.
OC: I started in the fall of 1964.
KT: And this is just, you know, this is immediately after Mississippi Freedom
Summer, and that part of Illinois is, in some ways, more connected to the South, right,
than it is OC: Exactly. Jacksonville, Illinois was a stop on the Underground Railroad. Let
�Osei T. Chandler
6
me tell you a quick story, if I may.
KT: Yeah, please.
OC: Okay. I, going back and forth was difficult. So, often, I did the Greyhound.
One time our bus broke down somewhere in Ohio. And so, I said I'm going to do like my
schoolmates do. They talk about hitchhiking all over the place. So, I hitchhiked, and I got
to about thirty miles outside of Jacksonville at a truck stop. It was like two or three
o'clock in the morning. I had a cup of coffee and got out on the road and tried to make it
back to my last thirty miles. I'm on the road. I'm walking. I got my stuff is in a duffel bag,
like an Army duffel bag. And I'm walking down the road. It's nighttime. I've got my
thumb out, and a car is coming up. I think they're going to come at me, and it's aiming
right at me. I had to dive off into the bushes and get out of the way.
Now I'm scared crazy-like, you know? So, I wait a while and then I get back on
the road and worry. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? I stick my thumb out
again, and these guys pick me up. Two guys in the front. I jump in. I said, "Man, thank
you so much." It's been, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said, "Boy, you
almost got our young'uns in trouble there. We're going to take you where you got to go.
But you know niggers ain't supposed to be out past 11 o'clock around here." I was like,
whoa. So, I'm not saying nothing. They told me to ask certain people, certain black
people in town to learn what the... what the flavor is around here, you know? So, that was
the end of my hitchhiking career. They took me right to my dorm and I got out and I was
like, phew, you know?
KT: But that was a sundown town?
OC: Yeah, that's what it is. And so, they had a history of, you know, racism in
�Osei T. Chandler
7
there. In fact, there's only ninety miles from St. Louis, Missouri, so, two hundred miles in
Jacksonville to get to Chicago. So, you know.
KT: Right. And so, what did you do after graduation?
OC: Well... I was the oldest of my mother's four children, and for me to go to —
be away from school for four — to school for four years, not hardly coming home at all,
except for the summers, maybe. I worked two summers in the steel mills. So, when it
came time for me to graduate, I was short two classes, and I had taken everything in the
book, in the catalog, but I did not have a good relationship with my advisor. So, I never
used him except to sign off. And so, it turns out I was two classes behind and I had to go
to summer school.
I raised a little hell with the Dean of Men and the President. They each gave me a
scholarship and I was able to buy a Volkswagen with one of those and I brought my two
brothers out. My brother next to me, two-and-a-half years younger than me, he had been
kicked out of high school for holding a demonstration and taking over the administration
building at Boys High. And they agreed to let him come to MacMurray and get some
courses that he could get his GED. And I had a younger brother than him. He was about
eight years younger than I, and he was a little hustler. You know, he would shoot crap
and steal money out of the vending machines and all that stuff.
So, they let them two guys come. And they both got in trouble, and I had to send
them back. And so, I went to summer school and graduated, and I went to Colorado,
California, Chicago, up and down the East Coast before I came back to Brooklyn. But I
finally came back and had to take care of the youngest brother, who was now was getting
out of juvenile detention center, Spofford Juvenile Detention Center, and he had to have a
�Osei T. Chandler
8
place to stay. So, he had to stay with me.
I had to get an apartment, had to get... inspected and passed the inspection. The
lady came and looked at my apartment, and I said, "Here's a mattress on the floor for him,
a mattress on the floor for me." "So, well, he has to have a bed." So, I had to get him a
bed. Anyway, so, I came back and finally went to work with the Department of Human
Resources for the City of New York, and I ran a couple — I supervised a couple of the
summer programs and programs that were designed to help low-income persons become
— get careers.
KT: In the late sixties, then, in New York, what was your involvement with
music? Were you just strictly a fan?
OC: Yeah. I went to a lot of clubs. I went to the Blue Note. Jazz. I love jazz, and I
was privileged to see a lot of people like Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, Pharoah
Sanders, and Slug's, went to Slug's. And, oh, man, it was just a beautiful scene, Brooklyn
and went to some clubs in the Village and stuff like that. It was really a great time to be
around music. We didn't even know how great it was until now we look back and say,
wow. Yeah.
KT: But jazz would have been your main focus musically?
OC: Well, yeah. But, see, Brooklyn, they used to call it a melting pot, but it's
more like a patchwork quilt as far as communities. In fact, in my high school years, in a
neighborhood called Bushwick, where the people went three blocks, Evergreen and
Central Avenue, it was a German neighborhood. You went four more blocks this way, it
was an Italian neighborhood. If you're going the other way, it was a Puerto Rican
neighborhood, and then it was a West Indian neighborhood. And so, everywhere you go,
�Osei T. Chandler
9
you got music and sound. You got sounds. You got aromas of food and languages and
accents and everything. So, it wasn't really quite a melting pot.
So, we had a great number of musical influences. In fact, two of my best friends
are Panamanian, and we go to Panamanian dances and things like that. And when we
went to house parties, which we gave some, as well, you'd have your R&B, but you'd also
have what we call Latin, you know, salsa kind of music. And all the parties would have a
break, a salsa break somewhere in there where now you do this and that, just salsa stuff.
Man, it was great. I was good at that.
KT: What about, because your passion, you know, through the radio program, or
one of the passions, is Caribbean music. And I'm wondering if was that part of that
experience in the late 60s, early 70s?
OC: Yes. We had what we call a — we called it the West Indian Day Parade
around Labor Day, every Labor Day. Eastern Park, where one of the bigger streets cuts
right through Brooklyn. They'd have a parade that ended up in Prospect Park. And it was
like a — it was almost like Carnival, but not quite.
But it was, I would say, and I'd tell anybody this. I have Jamaicans say, "Why are
you playing my music on the radio? You're not from Jamaica. We're right down here."
And I say, "Well, we got more West Indians in Brooklyn than you all have in any — in
Kingston, Jamaica." So, and it's true. Any capital in the Caribbean, we would have more
of those people in Brooklyn, all right? So. Brooklyn would be the fifth-largest city in the
country if it wasn't part of New York, New York City.
KT: And what brought you to Charleston, South Carolina?
OC: Well, that would be my lovely wife, and may she rest in peace. She passed
�Osei T. Chandler
10
away about seven years ago, and she was from here. And I met here in Brooklyn. Her
mother passed away when she was around thirteen, and her sister married one of my
cousins. And I told you about graduating from college in '68 with the help of all my
seven aunts and two uncles, care packages and three dollars a month here and like that.
And so, when I finally came back, I owed it to my family to go around and show them
the diploma. I mean, I was one of the first ones to graduate among my many, many
cousins.
And when I went to Bud and Pearl's house, which was Sadeeka's — my wife was
Sadeeka and her sister was Pearl, who was married to my cousin Bud. I went to their
house. There she was. Six feet tall, Afro, mini skirt. What could I do? I was smitten. So,
she eventually came. We had a little split. She came down here, and I eventually came,
came down here, as well, on a visit and stayed. And in addition to our two boys, we
ended up having a baby girl, and we were married for over forty years when she passed
away.
KT: And she's a native of South Carolina, of the Lowcountry?
OC: Summerville.
KT: She was born in —
OC: Ridgeville.
KT: Okay.
OC: She was born in Ridgeville, grew up in Lincolnville and Summerville, yeah.
KT: When did she move to New York?
OC: She moved to New York when she was thirteen. And now she was eighteen
when I met her, and probably she was 21 when we split up for a short period of time.
�Osei T. Chandler
11
KT: And what did you do when you got to Charleston and just I'm curious about
that experience and Charleston. And was this 1977?
OC: Yeah. November the fourth.
KT: You know the exact date?
OC: Exact date, yeah. I do. Well, when I was in college, they had a radio station
on campus, which I immediately took to. And in the high-school years, we had a social
club and we gave a lot of parties and I was the DJ. So, now I'm in college and I see a
radio station and my eyes light up and I start, and I had an R&B, rock-and-roll show,
which I had mixed the music of Mick Jagger with The Temptation, Beatles with the —
everything, I kind of mixed it up. It was really a great time. I met another fellow and a
young lady and we started a jazz show, as well. We had a jazz show and I had an R&B
show and with them, I had a jazz show.
So, when I came to Charleston, I was working with the South Carolina
Department of Labor, and a friend of mine told — and my coworkers told me about a
jazz show on the radio run by a guy named Tony Robertson, who has now passed away.
The studio was on Broad Street right downtown in what they call the — I forget, The
People's Building or something like that. Anyway, so, a building right there on Broad and
State with two lines on the — out front. And Tony, I called up Tony and asked him if I
could come by. He said, "Sure. Bring a couple of your records." I came.
Now, this is real. It's almost fantasy, but it's real. I got there. It was like six o'clock
in the evening. The place was closed except for — he told me I had to come upstairs. I
got in and I met him and I said, "Wow, this looks like the studio we had in college." He
said, "Really?" He said, "Would you like to play, spin a couple of records?" I said, "I
�Osei T. Chandler
12
would." And he said, "Well, look, I'm going to go downstairs to the Hungry Lion and get
something to eat. Play a couple of records, but don't open the mic." I said, "Okay."
I think I played Yusef Lateef and Rahsaan Roland Kirk tunes. He came back and
said, "How did it go?" I said, I told him, showed him what I played. He said, "Okay. Go
ahead and back-announce those," meaning say what you played. I did. He said, "Well,
look, you look like you know what you're doing here. Today is my last day. Would you
like to take over my show?" I said, "Sure." And he gave me the keys, told me what to do
to make it — localize it, because we were connected to the network out of Columbia.
"When you come in, flip this switch, do that, do that, and when you're finished, do that
and do that."
So, I did all of that. And I must have been on the air for a month and a half or two
months before anybody noted, I mean, the local people knew that I was there, because
they leave at five. I'd get there at six-thirty for the seven-to-nine show. And that's how I
met Jack.
KT: Well, was he, I mean, was he setting you up? I mean, did he have you in
mind as a possible replacement, do you think?
OC: No. We never met before. This was my first time meeting him. And he was
not — he hadn't told them he was leaving. He was just going to walk away from it. He
was a volunteer. I was a volunteer. So, it wasn't like anything had to be done in HR to get
the money, right? So —
KT: So, you met Jack, though, in those early years.
OC: I was on the air and I was playing John Coltrane, Miles Davis or something
and Jack McCray and Walter Rhett, who was another guy you might want to talk to, he's
�Osei T. Chandler
13
a historian, they were coming back from Orangeburg and they heard me on the air. I
hadn't met Jack yet. He called up and said, "Man, who is this? They don't play this stuff
in Charleston." I said, "Yeah?" So, we talked, and he came by, came by the same night
and we hung out for a while and became good friends.
And he began to help me with the show, because the station asked me at some
point — it must have been about three months later, they had a spot on Saturday night
they wanted to fill with another jazz show. And Jack and Walter — I bounced it off of
Jack and Walter. I said, "How about we do a roots music karamu?" Karamu is a Swahili
word that means "feast." I said, "We can play — we can play a feast of African-rooted
musics." Anything with a drum and bass is rooted in Africa, in my opinion.
So, I had — the idea was to play blues and highlife and juju and reggae and
calypso and soca and just kind of mix it all in there. And so, I sold that to the station, and
they said, "Okay, whatever. Do whatever you want." And so, Jack McCray helped me
with the jazz show, and now I got two shows in one week and a regular job and three kids
and a wife. So, Jack helped me with the jazz show. He eventually took it over, and I
continued with roots music. But then, you had this guy Gary Erwin. Do you know Gary?
KT: Was he a reporter?
OC: Gary Erwin is a blues guy. We call him Shrimp City Slim. He came on. He
had a blues show.
KT: Sure.
OC: And then he had a South of Louisiana show. And he had another — he had
three shows on his station. He was kind of cringing in on my territory, so I kind of
camped out the Caribbean and held tight there. And then, you had Afropop Worldwide
�Osei T. Chandler
14
was a syndicated African music show. And so, I kind of camped out on the Caribbean
and made it mostly reggae.
KT: That was your niche.
OC: Yeah.
KT: Yeah.
OC: So, that's how I got there. But I love reggae music, but I love jazz, I love
R&B and I love country music. I mean, I've been blessed. Yeah.
KT: You also began promoting shows, right, and...
OC: Yeah.
KT: ...and then, you know, further down the road, you know, working more with
the city and with some of these festivals.
OC: Exactly.
KT: But can you, yeah, tell me a little bit about working with Jack in the...
OC: Well, the first time —
KT: ...70s and 80s and the kinds of things that you were doing then.
OC: Jack McCray, Walter Rhett, Tony Robertson, Bob Small, and I, we founded,
we were called the Group for Integrated Studies. They formed the group. I joined in. And
we got a deal to help do the first, well, second Piccolo Spoleto Festival, and we
contracted with the city to do ten events — fourteen events in ten days. And this is one of
the greatest things that ever happened to me.
Jack and Walter knew all these local musicians who were now working as cab
drivers and waiters and schoolteachers and principals and stuff, and he formed jam
sessions all over town, living rooms all over town, where these guys actually came
�Osei T. Chandler
15
together and played music. George Kenny. You talked about Lonnie Hamilton. And we
did that, and we also had some avant-garde jazz, which was unheard of. We had —
KT: Here?
OC: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Carlos Garnett and the Universal Black Force was at — at
that time and around the Market there was a Gourmetisserie. There was a food court
inside. And several buildings down, but they're not even there anymore. But you close
down the food court and at night, we'd put up a stage and brought all of these artists in
there.
And the city was like you're never going to get anybody in here with this avantgarde jazz and this reggae stuff. And we said we would, and we had a little debate on
how we were going to split the money. And the cultural-affairs coordinator at the time
said, "Well, you guys keep whatever you can get, because you ain't going to make no
money." Man, we had lines around the block two nights in a row for the reggae, first time
ever in Charleston, Reggae 1979 — no, it must have been 1979 or '80. And it was, whew,
we made a lot of money.
KT: So, '79, '80 was — and was this a DJ spinning records, or this was live
reggae?
OC: Live reggae.
KT: And who would you have brought in, then?
OC: We put in a group called Denroy Morgan & the Black Eagles. And they
were—
KT: From Jamaica?
OC: Yeah, but they were living in Brooklyn, and I knew them. I knew them from
�Osei T. Chandler
16
Brooklyn, because, well, I don't know if the statute of limitations is up on that yet, so I'm
going to hold off on that. But I knew them from Brooklyn.
KT: Oh, do tell. We'll edit later if it's a problem.
OC: Okay. Well, there was a blackout and there was a big hullaballoo all over
Brooklyn and I remember seeing these guys — I'm not going to tell. I'm not going to tell.
Because now... Denroy Morgan, he lived around, a couple of blocks from where I lived in
Bushwick. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him. And we decide to contract to
bring them in.
And we went to pick them up, and we didn't know about you got to fly these guys.
We drove up, me and Bob Small drove up in an RV, put a U-Haul in the back of it and
brought the band down so that they could play. And he had a bunch of kids in their
garage playing reggae music. Eventually, they became one of the top five reggae groups
in the world, Morgan Heritage. If you ever heard of Morgan Heritage, this was their
father and uncle that we had here for the first Reggae in Charleston. Yeah.
KT: And people just responded positively to reggae from the beginning.
OC: Well, I would say yes.
KT: I guess Bob Marley had already made it as an international figure and others,
so.
OC: In fact, 1981, we had Peter Tosh at the Gaillard Auditorium. That was with
the help of Larry Walker and the owners of a club called Miskins. And that was crazy.
But, yeah, so, at that time, ninety percent of my audiences would be white. Most black
people in Charleston did not like reggae. At least, they thought they didn't. But my
opinion on that was that they hadn't been exposed to it.
�Osei T. Chandler
17
Because you look on, of course, any bridge here, you see a bunch of boats. And
those boats go places. They've been places. But it was my experience that native
Charlestonians, black Charlestonians, if they lived West of the Ashley, they may come
downtown, but they don't go East Cooper or North Charleston, and vice versa. So, they
hadn't been anywhere.
In fact, when I had, when I was working for the Department of Labor, it was my
job to work with migrants and seasonal farm workers. And I had a secretary who lived
right downtown off of Columbus Street. And I had three social workers and her. She
always was at the office, and one day, she asked if she could go with us to the
community. So, we said okay. And we were going out to... Adams Run and we got to that
bridge right at the end of Spring Street there and the bridge was open and she had never
seen the bridge open before. So, I say that to say that they had not been exposed to the
music.
In fact, the guy named Tony Jameson, who was the music director of WWZ,
WWWZ, he hired me to play from midnight to 6:00 A.M. on Saturday and midnight to
6:00 A.M. on Sunday, reggae. And so, I took the job, but I was playing and people would
call me up, "Take that crap off! We don't need to hear that monkey music! It was
blackface and black-oriented music."
I said, "Tony, I can't take this, man. I'm out of here." He said, "No, just don't
answer the phone. They don't know. Just don't answer the phone." And I was also
deejaying at a club around the same time on Sundays from 9:00 to 2:00 and from 9:00 to
midnight, I was supposed to play reggae and from midnight to 2:00, mix it all up. And the
people in the club were cussing me out, too. "Take that! We don't want to hear that
�Osei T. Chandler
18
banana-boat music!" And so, I started playing Michael Jackson, and the owner came and
said the same thing to me, "Play what I hired you to play."
And lo and behold, over time, the audiences became more and more, let's say,
integrated. And by the time we hit the 90s, I was having big shows at the King Street
Palace: Third World, Steel Pulse, Burning Spear, or Lucky Dube I had, or the Mighty
Diamonds or Coach, I mean, all the world-class groups. And then, so, the audiences were
becoming more and more black. I said, "We're going to make a lot of money next week
when we bring in the Third World," because we were about almost fifty-fifty. But then
the white people fell off the — fell off the cliff. Yeah, we got too black.
KT: Interesting. So, what happened? It became too black.
OC: Yeah. We still were making money, but —
KT: Reggae became too black for the white audience.
OC: Yeah, yeah. And it's strange now, because in the clubs, if you go to the
Music Farm or The Pour House to see a show, it's going to be mostly white folks there,
but it's going to be a good sprinkling of blacks. But for the free shows, like Moja Festival
or Piccolo Spoleto Festival or even a less-expensive show at James Island County Park is
going to be highly integrated, a good mix of people. And I would always say that's why I
like reggae music. It brings all kind of people together. Yeah, one of the things I love
about it.
KT: Tell me, I mean, there's so much I could ask you here, but tell me about —
so, what role, when Peter Tosh came to the Gaillard, did you play any kind of particular
role in that?
OC: Well, I had brokered the deal, I mean, because I had contacts with the music
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world, being on the radio. And I had been a volunteer all this time, and people would
make fun — some would make fun of me, "Oh, you volunteered? They could never get
me to volunteer." Well, you don't know what you're talking about, because I met all of
these people. So, I got Peter Tosh in. I was the emcee at the Gaillard Auditorium. Wow.
KT: So, you introduced Peter Tosh?
OC: I did. And —
KT: Do you remember what you said?
OC: I do. He had a song called "Stepping Razor." "I'm a stepping razor. Don't
watch my size. I'm dangerous." You know? And so, when I introduced him, I gave a
litany of many of the songs that he was famous for, "Downpressor" and "Get Up, Stand
Up." And now, ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, show your love for..." I pulled a big
dagger out of my waistband. "For Stepping Razor!" Things went nuts. Oh, Lord, I went
nuts! Man, he came out. Boy, they put on a heck of a show, a hell of a show.
KT: I hope there's a picture of that.
OC: There is. My friend Wendell Johnson took a photograph of that. I got it. I had
on a black shirt with a shiny green front, like sequins almost, and I had a shirt with a
flock, red shirt, tee shirt underneath with a black line. Oh, man, it was great.
KT: What year was the Tosh show?
OC: That was 1980, maybe '81. And the people that were backing it up, they were
wondering, uh-oh, we're not selling enough tickets early, which happens a lot in
Charleston. And so, they put Charles Earland, who was an organist, a jazz organist, they
put him on the bill, and then we brought in a guy named Rolly Gray. We had three acts.
Rolly Gray was a Trinidadian, so he had a lot of calypso and steel-pan music. It was a
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great night of music. Oh, yeah. We broke even.
KT: And then, how did you, you know, with promoting the shows at the Palace, I
mean, you played a similar role sometimes emceeing...
OC: Yes. All that time emceeing —
KT: ...but also kind of serving as a middle person and making it happen.
OC: Yeah, which bands should we get? I would broker that. And I was getting
like 10 percent of the gig, not the gross, but the gig. Oh, man, the net, I mean, ten percent
of the gross, not the net, yeah. So, that was a great time. And we made decent money
each time. I mean, I think the lady was Mary Feldman was the — she was running that
facility, and she consulted on which group should we bring and that's how that worked
out.
KT: Who do you know? Who's going to draw?
OC: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
KT: Do you have a particular Charleston musical moment that just really stands
out as the, you know, the show that you wish you could transport yourself back to, or the
song, even?
OC: Oh, I had so many great times, it's hard to say. But that Peter Tosh show was
great. But before I brought Peter Tosh, I was trying to broker a deal to bring Bob Marley.
And the guy that was running their — the Gaillard Auditorium at the time, he ran the
numbers and said, "You're not going to make any money with Bob Marley unless you
have two shows." I said, "Well, let's have two shows." He said he wouldn't. He wouldn't
approve it. And I didn't know how to get around him.
And then Bob died the next year, and that's how we brought in Peter Tosh. So, if I
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had the opportunity, I think I would be a little more — I'd go back in time and put my
arm around — my fingers around his neck — no, somehow convince him that this is
going to work, okay? Let's bring Bob Marley here. Yeah. But the Peter Tosh was the
militant of the group, so, I mean, in Charleston, South Carolina in 1980, '81, I mean, this
is phenomenal, phenomenal, because it was protest music, his music, yeah.
KT: Do you remember any kind of, any — how did that play politically and, you
know, was there any kind of resistance or backlash?
OC: None that I know of, but I can tell you this. During those four or five years
that we had that run at the King Street Palace, I lived right across the street, and
Charleston Police Department required us to have a certain amount of their officers as
security and we had to pay them and etc. And looking at what was happening at the King
Street Palace when my reggae shows, we had to have more security than they had to have
when they had white shows, country-music shows.
Now, reggae music, Walter Rhett wrote an article about me, and he said there's
never been any bombs at reggae shows, whether in the park, the Customs House, or in the
clubs, never. But after, what do you call it, Western music, Country Western music, there
would be — my lawn would be littered with beer bottles and stuff, yee haw, all that kind
of stuff. But they had less security and all of that. So, that kind of stuff played out.
In fact, they had a hip hop show that the police almost provoked it there, going to
riot. Oh, and another time — no, I'll hold off on that. It'll come up.
KT: Well, I was going to ask you, did you then, you know, at some point, did you
start promoting hip hop shows?
OC: No.
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KT: Never?
OC: Just jazz, a few jazz shows and reggae. Some avant-garde jazz shows with
Jack and Walter when we brought The Art Ensemble of Chicago or we brought, I can't
remember, Donald Berg, the trumpet player.
KT: But who would come out for the AACM, though?
OC: Well, about 250 people in the Gaillard Auditorium, which was like about
2,500, so ten percent.
KT: But that's about 200 more than I would expect to show up for avant-garde
jazz.
OC: Well, we had a contract with the College of Charleston to promote that show,
and when they learned who was coming, they'd dropped all the promotional stuff. So, we
had to put out our own — I might have one of them. We had to put out our own
newsletter to promote it, yeah.
KT: You had mentioned Miskins, but what were some of the other clubs to hear,
you know, not just jazz or reggae, but in, say, in the 1980s, what were the clubs?
OC: Yeah, the club on Meeting Street that just reopened — I don't know if they
used the same name — called Touch of Class. If you go to Meeting and Line, make a left,
and it's right there on the right-hand side up from Church's Chicken. There was another
club called Moulin Rouge on Rutledge Avenue, and across the street from the Moulin
Rouge, there was Wright's Place, W-R-I-G-H-T, Wright's Place. We had some good
times there. There was the Faculty Lounge. We had some jazz shows there, which was
probably wasn't as big as this room right here, a really narrow, narrow, narrow facility.
And we — then there was a couple of places out in Mount Pleasant and Johns Island.
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KT: Some of the small clubs?
OC: Small clubs, yeah, on James Island, as well. And then there was a Graylord's,
which is one of my favorite clubs, over in Maryville, which is no longer there, but it was
a nice, nice venue, as well.
KT: Yeah.
OC: Yeah.
KT: And those, it would be a mix of kind of rhythm and blues and soul and...
OC: Yeah. Yeah, and jazz. But the — not the avant-garde jazz, avant-garde, just
rhythmic jazz, you know, with a nice beat and everything. And it was more socializing
than music appreciation, but it was good. It was a good time to be had. I miss those days,
you know.
KT: Well, can you help me understand? I've been Charleston eight years and OC: From where?
KT: I grew up in the Midwest. I'm actually a Chicagoan.
OC: Is that right?
KT: And but most immediately, I was coming from Chapel Hill. And but I'm
curious in just in getting kind of the trajectory since you've been here. Was there a — can
you say, was there a high point?
OC: Yes.
KT: Like the early 90s and then things go down or, you know, the 80s.
OC: I would say all up until —
KT: From your perception, yeah. How?
OC: I think the trajectory went up, up, up all the way until the mid-90s or
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something, you know, and then as... as we got older, we kind of started falling back, you
know? So, I would say until the mid-90s or even almost the 2000s, it was really jumping.
My sons, both of my sons play music on the radio, reggae music on the radio, and take
my show from time to time if I can't make it. And they got their friends involved. In fact,
some of their friends ended up being in reggae bands and went on to reggae bands.
Da'Gullah Rootz came out of that. Paparabi came out of that, you know?
So, that was the high point. I think we have been in a lull, but I don't think this a
declining lull. It's just a kind of right there. I think it's poised to come back when the next
generation takes over.
KT: When you're talking about a lull, are you talking about reggae in particular,
or are you talking about just the music scene in general?
OC: I'm talking about reggae in particular and some of it with jazz, because jazz
now, you can hardly catch real jazz in a club. It's going to be a concert, you know? And
sometimes I think reggae is kind of getting to that. I couldn't bring the Marleys here now
unless you got a big, giant venue, you know? So, it would have to be a concert. Excuse
me. But, so, that's where the lull is. And I don't know what this next generation wants to
do, and so it'll be up to them to figure it out, you know? Yeah. Because I did what I
wanted to do, and I had a ball.
We used to do boat rides. I mean, I used to deejay boat rides, three or four boat
rides a year for twelve years. I mean, it was great, get out on the river, Reggae on the
River. That's what we used to call it. Moonlight Reggae Harbor Cruise, two hours
floating up and down. I had a deejay playing the reggae for me, because I was the
ambassador, so I had to go around and dance with the ladies and carry on, you know.
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KT: You just had to.
OC: I had to. It was my job.
KT: Well, tell me about that, though, because, you know, you've been deejaying
since you were a teenager, basically. Tell me about that. You know, what do you like
about that experience of being the DJ?
OC: Well, I remember when I started deejaying. I went to public school. I went to
Catholic school till the fifth grade, and then when my parents separated — we got real
poor real fast — I went to public school. And in public school, I was so far ahead of what
they were doing at my grade level, that I became the audiovisual guy, the school crossing,
anything extracurricular I got to do. So, I played records in the classes for the teachers
when they needed that, showed films.
And I remember in junior high school, I was going to every — once a month or
so, we'd have a dance at the gym. And it would start out like the guys on one side and the
girls on the other. And so, you'd walk all the way across to the other, the whole gym, and
ask the girl for a dance and she'd say no. Then you'd ask her friend, and she'd say no. And
you're so afraid. You know what's going to happen. You go down the line and everybody
says no, and now you got to go back across the room and your friends are snickering at
you, right?
So, I said I'm not going to continue that. I'm going to be the DJ. And then, you
know, so, that's how I started deejaying. I had a social club called the [00:40:38
Syntherians], and we'd give parties and help out with — sometimes it would be waistline
parties. Whatever the size of your waist, that would be how much you paid, thirty-two
cents or twenty-eight cents. And we got jackets and things like that. And then with the
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extra money, we took the kids in the neighborhood to the zoo and park picnics and things
like that. We were a good — we were what you'd call nerds or geeks or something like
that. I don't know. We were good guys.
So, that's why I started DJing. And when I got in college, like I told you, I got on
the radio station there, and the rest is history.
KT: But I'm wondering, it's... I'm just thinking about this, the job of a DJ or the
passion of a DJ. And there's got to be some impulse toward, you know, it's your
excitement for this music and this, you know, desire to share that.
OC: It's true, and it's a lot of pressure on the DJ, because people think they know
what they want. But they don't really want that all the time. So, for example, I would be
hired to play a wedding reception or a bar mitzvah or something like that, and you want
to make the people dance. But reggae music doesn't really make you dance, per se, you
know? So, I've got Bob Marley going and I've got Steel Pulse and Third World going.
But if I want to make the people dance, I got to put on The Mighty Sparrow or some
calypso, and that gets them going. Then you put the reggae on and they stay with it and
they stay with it and then it kind of dies down and you got to pop in another calypso.
But it's a lot of pressure, man. I don't like DJing anymore. I can't do it anymore,
because, you know, argh, you know. I don't know if I can make the people dance or not. I
had one guy, Lance Stark, who is a reggae guitarist and had his own band. And I got him
a gig at [00:42:27 KOR] and I went out to see him play. And he has a song called "Get
Up and Dance," and everybody was just sitting around and he's playing "Get Up and
Dance" and then he started to berate the crowd, "Why are you all not dancing? I'm
playing this music." I said, "Lance, you can't do that. Don't do that. If they're not dancing,
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that's your fault, you know?"
And that's the way it is with the DJ. If they're not dancing, that's your fault. You
got to figure out how to make that work. Yeah. So, certain songs would make them get
up. Yeah.
KT: But it's that combination of giving the people what they want but you want to
challenge them a little bit.
OC: Yeah, exactly. So, like being on the radio, when I told you about the I'm not
playing for a month, not answering the phone for a month, and then when I answered or
started answering the phone again, they say, "Man, play that song by the yellow guy."
There's an artist named Yellowman that's very, very rhythmic, a very good guy. "Or play
that one by — talking about the night nurse," Gregory Isaacs. And so, once they heard it,
they see that as not impossible and it gets into them.
It's a heartbeat, and when you talk to reggae artists, in those days, they would say
reggae is the music of the beat of the heart, you know. I think it had a little more to do
with smoking marijuana, because before that, before that, they were playing what they
call mento and then there was ska and they're both upbeat, like almost like calypso. I
think them guys got together and started smoking them blunts and stuff and it's slowed —
"Hey, slow that down, mon!" You know? And [beats out fast rhythm] went to [beats out
slow rhythm]. Don't tell anybody I said that. It's not documented.
KT: It makes sense. It makes sense.
OC: Yeah. So, it's been a great ride. In fact, I guess I will make it known here,
probably this is going to be my last year doing the Moja Festival reggae, black bands. So,
if they want to continue that, maybe one of my sons can do it or maybe they'll get
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somebody else. Yeah, but, you know, like I said, I'm 70 years old now. It's been a great
time, but it's getting to be a little stressful and less fun.
I look at the audience, anyways. There's nobody out there, not very many people
65, 70 anymore. There's a different group, and those other folks that I was playing music
for and with, they were my friends, too. You know? So, it was great. Yeah.
KT: Well, is there a... you know, you've also, you know, being involved in the
local music scene, and I've been trying to pull this out of all of the artists who visited the
class, is I'm curious if there are things that you think are unique to Charleston's music
scene or unique to the music of Charleston.
OC: Well, one of the reasons I think that I was able to bring so many bands here
to Charleston, reggae bands, that is, is because the geography, the topography is similar
to many of their homes in the Caribbean. So, those guys, when they would come, Reggae
Band Mojo Nigh or Identity, or any of those guys, they'd come on a Friday. I might get
them two nights at the clubs, and in those days, they'd spend the night at my house here
for two thirds of it, to limit their starting to meeting the girls and the girls started taking
them home. But they'd sleep on my floor. They'd cook [00:45:25 eye towel] food, I mean,
good food.
And at the time, I was founder of the Ebony City Soccer Club, the first AfricanAmerican-oriented youth soccer club, but we had kids of all races. But I didn't know how
to play soccer, but those guys did. They'd come out and play soccer with us, man. They'd
show the kids some techniques and some defense techniques and skills with the ball that
those kids could now practice on their own. I thought that was unique. And so, so that
flavor of the Caribbean, that flavor is here, you know?
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You know probably the relationship between Charleston and Barbados, so that's
Caribbean. That's documented. And so, I think that's one of the unique things about
Charleston, is its topography and its relationship to the Caribbean and Africa. Remember,
sixty percent of Africans that came to America were imported through Sullivan's Island.
They came through Charleston.
And the same way they talk about Gullah Geechee, I think that influences that...
that Gullah Geechee thing had me thrown for a good little while here. I told you my best
friend, two of my good friends are Panamanian, but I could hardly understand their
parents' speech when they were talking to me, because they had that heavy accent, patois.
And when I moved here, it was similar. And I remember playing something about
punanny on the radio, and a Jamaican guy called me and said, "You can't play that on the
radio!" I didn't know what he was talking about, so.
But there was a time when my daughter used to go to a daycare center. It was
right across the street from a grocery store that had a license that you could go in the
grocery store and drink beer there. So, it was always a gathering place, right on Line,
right down the street here, Line and Ashley. And my daughter would go there from the —
they would pick her up from the daycare center for me until I could get there. And those
guys, and they would be drinking and talking. I didn't know what the heck they were
talking about.
And then one day, it clicked. I understood what they were saying. Then I
understood what the Jamaicans were saying, and I understood what the Panamanians
were saying. And so, that whole thing is all, it's related. Just like I said, the roots music
karamu, to show all those things are related. And I learned that firsthand through that
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experience.
I think the guy who ran that store, his name was Yadi. And Yadi, which is —
which I don't know how he got that name, but it didn't mean the same thing to him that it
would mean to somebody from Jamaica, where they say they're from "yaad." So, they're
yaadies from Jamaica. They're yaadies. Yeah.
KT: What about in terms of like do you think there's something unique about
jazz? If you hear Charleston jazz or jazz from Charleston natives, do you think there's
anything unique there that stands out?
OC: I don't believe so. Jack McCray probably would differ with me. He preaches
a mantra that said jazz was not born in New Orleans. It was not born in St. Louis. It was
born in many places around the same time. It all came kind of crumbled up together and
spread out and fell back down.
So, I don't know of anything in the jazz genre that is unique to Charleston,
although they have had some great jazz musicians from here, but they went to other
places. And I guess they took whatever they took with them from their Jenkins
Orphanage experiences, etc. and added that to Duke Ellington's band or Count Basie's
band or Dizzy Gillespie's band. But I couldn't say, "Oh, that sounds South Carolinian.
KT: Right, right, right.
OC: But I can tell the difference between — often, not every time, but between
Jamaican reggae and USA reggae.
KT: I was going to ask you about that.
OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a... it's a little less rootsy, US reggae, but some of those
guys do their own work, and they can really sound authentic and then give it — you got
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to give it — then you're doing music, you got to give it what is you, you know? You can't
just mimic and copy. So, I can generally tell the difference, but it's not less good. It's just
it's different, you know?
KT: The American sound is cleaner, maybe more kind of — would it be more
rock?
OC: It sounds — let me think about that for a second. It's more predictable, is
what I would say. It's more predictable. And sometimes, those bands get a little lazy, and
so they're not pushing the beat. They're falling back onto the beat, whereas I think they
should be in front of the beat. That's the best way I can tell it. So, sometimes I will tell
that to an upcoming band. There's a band here in Charleston. I forget the name of them.
They've been around a long time. But they just don't push the beat, man. They just make
you tired. Ugh.
KT: It's too laid back.
OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they think that's the way it is. Come on. Get on top
of it. Be on top of it.
KT: I guess maybe not having gone through a ska phase, maybe they're
completely divorced from that tradition, whereas the Jamaicans would have been, many
of them, would have, you know —
OC: I don't expect —
KT: What — oh, go ahead.
OC: Nowadays, almost everything that comes out of Jamaica is called reggae, but
I don't believe that, you know. To me, the music I play on the radio is uplifting music. I'm
not going to play hip hop reggae, unless it's positivity. I say we play that old-school
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reggae and the contemporary reggae that has that old-school flavor. That's kind of how I
put it, you know. Like Morgan Heritage would fit that, or NKulee Dube, Lucky Dube's
daughter, would fit that. But not everybody that comes out of Jamaica, not every song
that comes out of Jamaica is reggae, not for my show. Yeah. Okay.
KT: Let me open it up here. Are there questions from the students? Anyone?
Question: What's your favorite artist? Who is your favorite artist, sir, coming up
and now, growing up and now today?
OC: It's hard to have a favorite, except in reggae. Every week, I play a Bob
Marley song, at least two. I got two hours on the radio, and in at least one of those hours,
you're going to hear Bob Marley sing or hear one of his songs performed by someone
else. So, Bob Marley by far and away is my favorite reggae artist. As far as other music, I
love John Coltrane, Miles Davis. I really love Alan Move and I like a lot of blues. Oh,
Jimmy Reed is my favorite blues artist, you know. So, that's the kind of stuff I would mix
up on there. Thank you for asking.
Question: I got a question. I am curious about the education of a DJ. Where are
you getting your information? Are you following somebody? to keep learning about the
music that you love?
OC: It's difficult in Charleston, because I'm the guy, you know? People want to
know, they come to me. But, so, it's kind of difficult. But in this age, it's not as hard.
Back in the day, back in the used-to-be, they would send me LPs to promote on the air,
and they'd also have a sheet that comes with the music that tells you about the artist,
some biographical information about the players of instruments and the singers of songs.
And so, that's where I would get my information.
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And now when I travel back to New York and go through D.C. or whatever, I'm
always flipping the radio to hear what's on, what's on and who's playing what and I make
notes and then I come back and I look those people up. But so, that's why I say on the
radio, I'm not a DJ. I'm a producer. I'm a host and a producer, because a DJ, in my
opinion, on the radio, they just play what is told to them.
And this was one of the questions you had - no, you didn't ask me that. Adam
Parker, you did ask me. They play what's told to them. I play what I want. So, for
example, I mentioned all the music I play is positive. It could be about love between a
man and a woman. It could be about love of your people. It can be about politics, what's
happening in the world, not strictly politics, but something positive. So, that's what I play.
And you asked me, I believe, do I think music, how it influences people and what
kind of thing it can have on you. I think subconsciously, it does get into your brain. I'm
listening to songs. I'm knowing the words to songs I hate, because I'm listening every
morning. I listen to the Tom Joyner Morning Show. But I don't like the music, but I like
to hear what they're talking about. And so, I can hear a song, and I know the lyrics to this
stuff. I mean, it's crazy. I don't want that in my head. Let it out of here. I'd rather have
"Get Up, Stand Up," or "One Love," you know, ringing around in my brain.
KT: Were there particular radio personalities who've had an influence on your
approach to being a host?
OC: Well, I would say yes, in terms of I, growing up, I really enjoyed Wolfman
Jack. We had a good guy named The Magnificent Montague, Jocko, a guy named Jocko.
I really would like to have been him. He had a little thing he'd say. "Hey, hey, tiddly
dock. Yo, this is the Jock, and I'm back on the scene with the record machine. The correct
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time now, 8:15." And the Magnificent Montague, he'd come on with these girls singing,
just, "Montague... the Magnificent... the man with soul to entertain you." I mean, they
were elaborate. I mean, they were personalities. And so, I did listen to that stuff, and I
guess it did influence me.
Vaughn Harper, up in there, went to Boys High when I was there. He was a very
popular nighttime DJ. What did they call that music from like 10:00 till 3:00 A.M.?
KT: The graveyard?
OC: No, no, not the graveyard. It was like — oh, they had a term for it. I can't
remember. But it was like Velvet Soul or something like that, because it was all slow
songs, like, "All right, good morning, ladies and gentlemen," you know, that kind of
stuff, talking like he's going to melt your heart, you know.
KT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Venus Flytrap played that on WKRP in
Cincinnati. That was his niche.
OC: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
KT: Other questions?
KT: I was wondering if you can point to, just in terms of being a local taste
maker, can you point to concrete —
OC: For the people that ask questions.
KT: Oh, great. If you can point to particular — you know, what's been your
legacy on Charleston's music scene?
OC: Well... I'm happy to say that over the years, my involvement with jazz has
uplifted local musicians, which they deserve. Over the years, we have brought reggae. I
brought reggae to Charleston. Nobody was doing this before. Miskins, around the same
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time, they had a band playing called, named Crusher, but that was in the club, sixty,
seventy people. So, I brought reggae through Charleston. I got it into parks. I got it into
schools. I would get a band.
If I got a band playing two nights here, like Friday night and Saturday night,
they'd be in the school Friday doing something that Burke or James Simons School for
the people. And everywhere I'd go, almost everywhere I'd go, people would say, "Oh,
he's the reggae guy." So, in addition to having had a career in education, where I helped
adults go to college, through the Educational Opportunity Center, that was my real job,
but my legacy is that I brought people their culture, because there's reggae.
Even though it comes from Jamaica, it's our culture. That Gullah Geechee
connection is here, I mean, more than almost any other place. I mean, there are other
places, I'm sure, but it's essential for here. And it has opened the doors for me to do other
cultural things. I work with the Avery Research Center. I do the — conduct an annual
remembrance program to remember those Africans that perished in the Middle Passage
who often get overlooked. We talked about slavery, but we don't talk about how did that
happen. And it's important, in my opinion, to bring that forward.
So, there's music. All my life has been, like everything ties together. My kids, my
wife, I mean, they supported everything I did, and not only supported but were involved
with those things, as well. And they're still carrying that forward in their own ways. My
daughter, right now, she works in the US Embassy in Kingston, Jamaica. She's in the
Coast Guard. She's a Chief Petty Officer, and her job is a Special Assistant to the Military
Attaché to Jamaica. And the head of their Defense Force has just retired. She had to host
a party for him. Oh, well, a reception or whatever you call that. I don't know.
�Osei T. Chandler
36
So, I mean, you know, I've just been blessed. It's been a blessing. I think I've been
a blessing for the community, and I know the community has been a blessing for me. It's
— I never would have thought I'd come to Charleston, South Carolina, period, you know
what I mean? Charleston? You must be crazy. I remember my father would tell me. He
played — one of the bands he played in was Billie Holiday's band, and he remembers
coming through Charleston, through South Carolina and not being able to eat or sleep
anywhere, you know? They had to send somebody to a restaurant to get sandwiches and
stuff and bring them on the bus. He said he'd never come back here.
But he did tell me this, and he had an eighth-grade education, but he was smart.
He said, "When you go to Charleston, you're going to have cousins there. I don't know
their names, but they took the same trip on the same ship. We just got off in different
places." I told you he's from Barbados, so he knew that. And it took me years to really
learn that from the Carolina Caribbean Association. They did some documentation of
that. You might want to talk to Rhoda Beck or...
KT: Green.
OC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Rhoda Green, yeah.
KT: Yeah, yeah. Did your father ever record?
OC: Yes. He recorded a couple of albums with a bass player that just passed away
from the Savannah area. His name was Ahmed Abdul-Malik. Yeah. And my father wrote
two or three of the songs that's on his album.
KT: And your father's name?
OC: Taft Chandler. T-A-F-T, Chandler.
KT: Okay.
�Osei T. Chandler
37
OC: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: Great. Other questions? Last chance. How about anything that, you know, we
may have touched on that you wanted to elaborate upon or maybe something that I failed
to ask you that you want to offer as some final thoughts?
OC: Well, the number-one thing is what time is my show on the radio? Every
Saturday night from ten to midnight. I started it. It's on 89.3 in Charleston, but it's also
heard in Columbia and in Greenville. And those stations are also a hundred thou. I think
two of them, Charleston is 100,000 watts. Greenville is 80,000 watts, and Columbia is
100,000 watts. So, we cover the state.
But in addition to that, I do, I host a jazz show. It's part of a thing called Jazz
Works. My jazz show is heard on 140 stations, none in the South, all in the Northeast or
Midwest. In fact, I got a call recently from an old schoolmate who lives in Iowa, I-O-WA, and she heard my show and wanted to know if that was me. And I hadn't been in touch
with her since 1968.
KT: Oh, wow.
OC: I mentioned to you that I'm going back to my college for to get a
Distinguished Career Award, and I was talking to the Alumni person, and she says I'm she saw my resume that I do. "How did you get into radio?" I said, "I got into radio at
MacMurray." She said she didn't know that they had a radio station back then. So, things
have changed quite a bit, and I was able to tell her, "No, that's where I got my start, and
I'm still doing it." So, that's going to be — that's going to be an interesting — it's going to
be an interesting trip.
I want to say one more thing, and it's got nothing to do with... music so much. But
�Osei T. Chandler
38
in 1966 or '67, I can't remember when it was, I had my Black Student Union on campus,
and we were allied with the SDS and a couple other organizations. And when Dr. Martin
Luther King had a march in Cicero, Illinois, we all decided we would go up together and
be part of that. But you couldn't just go be part of a march. You had to learn how to be
and that kind of thing, so you could remain nonviolent. And we had to go through two or
three days of training in how to be passive in the face of that situation.
And at that time, I didn't think I was nonviolent. I thought if somebody hits me,
I'm going to hit them back. But that was the most hateful experience I ever had in my life.
We had a phalanx of police officers from different towns and around us as we marched
through Cicero, Illinois. And the hatred that was coming out of those people calling us
niggers, this is where Martin Luther King got hit with rocks, okay? That was an
experience, as well. And I guess it informed my passion for trying to do things that would
uplift my community and let my people know that they're part of humanity, not less than.
So, that's an aside.
KT: So, you were part of Dr. King's Chicago Movement in '66...
OC: Yes.
KT: ...or played a role as a student?
OC: Yeah, yeah.
KT: Wow.
OC: In fact, I heard from a young man recently who found me on Facebook who
succeeded me as the president, a coordinator of the Black Student Union, and he had told
me that, how much that meant to him, because when I left college, I had never been in
touch with those people until recently with this Facebook business. So, it was really
�Osei T. Chandler
39
interesting.
And he also told me about when Martin Luther King got shot, it was on a — I
think it was a Friday. Whatever day it was, school, we didn't even have a break that way.
Well, we took over the radio station and we played tribute music to him. And the next
day, everybody went their separate ways. And I was riding back to New York City with a
guy named Dan Millstone, who was in the Students for a Democratic Society, with his
mother and his soon-to-be wife. And we remember coming through Washington, D.C.
and seeing tanks and armored car carriers and soldiers with guns in the streets there, and
it was like, wow, this is crazy.
Don't have nothing to do with music, per se, but it does, in a way, because some
of the music I remember playing — I play music that reflected that time. Gil Scott-Heron,
for example, would talk about those kind of things. A guy named Johnny Moore talked
about the bombing in the Alabama church where the four little girls were killed, and they
went to church, because their mother didn't want them to be part, to be in trouble, in
danger, with the march. So, "You all go to church and pray," and they get killed. It's...
anyway.
KT: Can you remember? Were those songs that you played on the — for the
tribute show?
OC: Yes. Well.
KT: You remember those, playing those specific songs?
OC: I don't know. I don't. I don't, because they might not have been out yet. They
might not have been out yet. I guess they were. Martin Luther King had died already, so,
yeah, he was in that town, yeah. I played John — that's where I got this — I still got that
�Osei T. Chandler
40
record from WMMC, yeah. I played that, played that one.
KT: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciated this.
OC: Oh, you're welcome. I got a couple of CDs for you.
KT: Okay.
OC: I want to give one to this fellow here. Even though he didn't ask a question,
he's been paying attention, so.
KT: Who's this, now?
OC: This is just music. I don't know.
KT: Who were you talking about? The research right here? Yeah. Joyner is a
family name, right?
OC: It was my wife's name. Yeah. J-O-Y-N-E-R. And I didn't know you knew
that. So, the music that you have there, when I go to the studio now, I don't get to take my
LPs anymore or my CDs. What I have to do now, because we had a local facility, but
budget cuts made that not happen. And in fact, they closed them, all the local stations
down. It might have been seven cities around the state that had their own stations, but
now it's all coming out of Columbia.
But what I have to do now is I put one hour - one hour's worth of music on one
CD and the second hour's music on the next CD. And I go to the studio, give the CDs to
the engineer, and I said, "Okay, between — I'm going to open up the show with readings.
'This is the Roots Music Karamu Special Edition. We're talking about,' whatever,
whatever the topic is. And then between seven and eight, you're going to That was, this
is,' you know. And between ten and eleven, I'm going to say, 'This was, you just heard,
and coming up next is.'" So, that's kind of the way we put it together. What you have
�41
Osei T. Chandler
there is just the music.
KT: It's all just digitally edited, then.
OC: Yeah, exactly. And Denise sends it to the — Columbia sends me a copy. So,
all you have there is music. You don't have my raspy voice today. All right.
KT: Good. Well, thank you very much.
OC: All right. You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
End of recording.
ML May 5 2017
�
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Oral Histories
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
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<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
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<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
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<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
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<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
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Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kieran Walsh Taylor
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Osei T. Chandler
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 8 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral History of Osei T. Chandler, interviewed by Kieran Walsh Taylor, 23 February, 2017
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--South Carolina
African Americans--South Carolina--Charleston--Music
Disc jockeys
Music entrepreneurship
Description
An account of the resource
Radio host and producer Osei Terry Chandler was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1946. His father was a musician and his mother loved listening to music. Growing up in this multicultural city, he was exposed to all kinds of music. As a teenager, he joined his high school radio and mixed music at parties. He moved to Jacksonville, Illinois to attend MacMurray College and there continued DJing and working for the college radio. After graduation, he returned to New York to support his younger brothers and there he met and fell in love with Sadeeka Joyner, a young woman from Ridgeville, SC, who would become his wife and the mother of his three children. In 1977, Chandler relocated to Charleston. Soon after, he found an opportunity to work on a jazz radio program replacing the host Tony Robertson. Later, he focused mostly on reggae and Caribbean music. His program, Roots Musik Karamu, has been on the air on SC Public Radio since 1979. In the interview, Chandler recalls some of the most memorable moments of his career and reflects about the evolution of the music scene in Charleston. Finally, he states he has had a joyful life sharing his work with musicians and friends and explains that all the aspects of his life, including family and his work as an educator and the music, are tied together. Mostly he has always wanted to share music that brings positive feelings and thoughts that are uplifting for the community.
Creator
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
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Working Charleston
Publisher
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The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
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2017-02-23
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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application/pdf
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English
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Text
Identifier
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/614
Coverage
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Charleston (S.C.)
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PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – RAYNIQUE SYAS
Interviewee: RAYNIQUE SYAS
Interviewer: GRACE ANN HALL
Interview Date: April 9, 2021
Location: Charleston, SC by Zoom
Length: 91 minutes
GRACE HALL: Let's see, there we go. All right. We are live. So, I guess just to
get started, if you'd like to tell me your full name, as well as when and where you were
born.
RAYNIQUE SYAS: My name is Raynique Syas, and I was born in Los Angeles
California.
GH: Thank you.
RS: Oh, and June 15, 1985.
GH: All right. Thank you. So what was, what was the life like in California
growing up? Can you tell me a little bit about your family? If That's okay.
RS: Yeah, so I grew up in a small, a smaller part of Los Angeles called Watts. I
grew up in a housing project. My mom and my dad were both natives of that area. It was
(laughs) it is, it was a very urban area typical of Los Angeles in the eighties, city gangs
and things like that. Typical city housing project life, where you had like gangs, drugs
that kind of activity. But it was really a community-based neighborhood for me. Cause I
grew up in it. And all my family was there and it was all I knew.
Like, that was really the big, it was just for me growing up. It was, I think for
other people looking in, it might be like a really scary environment, but for me it was
�really normal. It was normal to play in that type of environment and to make our own
toys and to just make our own fun.
GH: Did you, I guess, did your experiences as a child, did they motivate you
towards activism in adulthood, is that kind of what pushed you?
RS: Most definitely. I think a lot of the things that I saw that a lot of my first
experiences were what I now categorize as injustice. It's probably more out of my
childhood. Just looking at the level of poverty that we lived in that we normalized--.
You know, just living. My mom was 13 when she had me and 17 when she had
her own place there. And in those housing projects of course were for low-income
families who typically lived with like on, on some type of dependency to the state, like
whether it was food stamps or whatever. So, just looking at like how our, how our
community dealt with folks that were dependent upon the state was something that I saw
as an injustice, because we was like, basically treated like, we didn't mean anything to
nobody but ourselves. So, we had to form this like community of us. And then like seeing
how poverty, in fact, impacted everybody's family and the necessity for the drug use and
the drug selling in the community. So drugs, people got addicted to drugs, but people also
had to sell drugs. If that makes sense, like you had to sell drugs in order to survive, but
you also like (00:04:27) had people who were in your family who were addicted to drugs.
And like you knew that this was something that was unsafe and unhealthy for your
family, but what other choice did you have because it was either that or not make your
rent and then y'all don't have a place to stay or not, you know, be able to, you know,
provide for your family because a welfare check for two or for a family of three is five
hundred and something dollars. And even less back in the eighties, you know what I
�mean? So it was like, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive. So, and a lot of it was
just do what you gotta do. It did it impact my, my views on the justice system. And it
impacts my views on survival and what it takes to actually, to actually survive and to
actually live, here or anywhere.
GH: So what made you decide to leave Los Angeles?
RS: A number of different things. I--. There was a lot of--, I don't have a lot of
people from my--, that survived my childhood either because they were killed, went to
prison or they died because of something else, some drug overdose or some, just
something happened to where I don't have a lot of friends that, and I'm, and I'm just 35.
So I don't have a lot of friends that I grew up with, especially not my male friends. I have
children and I, the lifestyle that I grew up in, it's really something that like, you can really
get carried away into, like it, because it's all around you is something that I don't know
how to describe it because it's just like, you grow up knowing how to gang bang before
you know how to talk, you grow up knowing how to, you know, like this lifestyle is just
something, it's all, it's all around you and you know how to do it before, you know how to
do anything else, you know, how to survive this before you know how to live any other
type of life, if that makes sense. So I think I just wanted to give my kids something
different and like a different opportunity to be able to like, you know, really choose who
they wanted to be instead of growing up and being from this area and just recognize it
and being recognized as a person that was from this area before they can even have an
opportunity to decide that that's what they wanted their identity to be.
And I also just wanting something different for myself wanting to see if these
survival skills worked everywhere else, really. And then I wanted to do it in a place
�where I have the security of having more family. Having, known somebody. You don't
ever want to go somewhere where it's so unfamiliar. Like you don't know anybody's
names. That's just a myth that you want to go somewhere where nobody knows your
name, you don't ever want to do that. You always want to be familiar with somebody. So
this was a place. Charleston was a place where I had family. My family that I had grown
up with, with family that I had, that was related to me by blood. So why not? What you
got to lose? You not doing nothing else? And also because a lot of it had to do with my
life circumstances. Not that it was particularly bad, but my kid's father, my son, I had just
had a son. I have two daughters and one son and my son was maybe one when my fiancé
was sentenced to 19 and a half years in prison. You don't really want to raise a son in LA
by yourself.
I wanted to give him a different opportunity. I wanted to give particularly him
another opportunity.
GH: So how did you survive? How did you, I guess, keep on going to escape it
until you were able to leave?
RS: I think I'm very blessed in the sense of like who I have. I have strong people
around me. Always have like, I'm very blessed in the sense that I've I think it has, it has a
lot to do with like I have my mother and my mother's mother and my mother's mother's
mother and I got it. I got to experience like the older people in my life. I've lived--. I've
been alive when to see to be a fifth generation and to see five generations of my family. I
think that had a lot to do with like just them imparting wisdom to me and like sitting with
them and having conversation with them about, you know, who I want to be and who I
ought to be. And like what type of things are right. And what type of things are wrong.
�I don't think a lot of people just get to experience that for one. So, I think I was
very wealthy in, in that like both sides of my--. And I a lot of friends didn't have like the
advantage of always having, you know, both of their parents, you know, to have
conversations about and get different kinds of perspectives, not to say that they were
always right. My mom was 13, my dad was 17, but just the advantage to have somebody
who was older than you and had more experience than you and the wherewithal to like,
know what to do with that. A lot of people just didn't have that and didn't have, didn't
have that experience and just having people of faith around me, my family is very
faithful. They, you know, there was, I don't think not to say that I just lived around a lot
of bad people. I think there was just not enough people around in my environment of
people to tell them or to help them, to guide them as to what was right and what was
wrong. And I had that. So I think a lot of, and I had the knowledge and the ability for
myself to say, to decide that this was right, and this was not to make those decisions. And
a lot of people didn't and it was just, it was grace. I was graced in that way. So--.
That's how I survived it, not to say that, I came through without a whole bunch of
scars and scratches, but that's the gist of it.
GH: So you grew up in a community of faith or in the church?
RS: Not to say that my family cause I have, like, my grandmother was on drugs
for a number of years and like not to say that my family just didn't have trials and
tribulations that they went through. Cause we definitely did. And not to say that they
were a perfect family, you know, like everything happened, everything happened
perfectly, because we lived in that environment and members of my family are gang
bangers and they sold drugs and all of those things. But I think being grounded and
�rooted in a faith tradition did help. And having that as like a guiding post that you always
came back to for us was something that it just, it, it blessed me to be able to, you know,
make it through some, I didn't always make the right decisions, but a lot of times I did,
you know, and it was because of that.
GH: So once you moved to Charleston what was, well, what was the experience
of the move, but were your kids--,
RS: Traumatized.
GH: Old enough to, they were traumatized?
RS: Yeah, (laughs) I think we, we are just now like coming out of the trauma of
the move and into like experiencing maybe I wouldn't say it's joy, but it's just like
settlement after this is our sixth year here. And the, so first of all, there was the initial,
like us moving in with family whom we did not grow up with and like getting to know
those persons who were from a place where we knew, they they're all from California,
they all grew up in that area. But I think being in Charleston for 30 plus years, they were
now like, like they're now Charlestonians. They're no longer like LA people. And so like
just the difference culturally of who we are. Even though we're related by blood and that's
my family, that's my grandmother, this is my aunt. And this is my uncle.
Like, there's just some cultural differences. And then the fact that this was my
paternal family and not my maternal family. And usually when a family separates and
children are more close with their maternal family, because that's who they're normally
with. And so that was the case here. And then just, I think the feeling that I would
describe, or words that I would describe, like our initial introduction to Charleston was
just very oppressive. There was this feeling of like, stay in line, shut up and like do what
�you're told, which we were just not used to. We just, it just wasn't, it was hard to get used
to, like, you're going to do things like everybody else does. And we were just not used to
that. We were just not used to this. There's like this I don't know, uniformity that
everybody kind of complies to in Charleston.
Like we all walk the same. We all, like everybody do, we eat the same things. We
do the same things and your differences. Like, I think here's where I really began to like,
understand how I embraced everybody else's cultural differences and their different
thought patterns. And I appreciated my love for that. Once I got to Charleston, because
my differences were not accepted as much as they were everywhere else. Like not even
the shape of my body, the way I wear my hair, the way I talk, the way I dress, the way,
you know, all of these things where like you're supposed to be like everybody else. And
when I had, I think, whereas in California, I think I, my identity was based in
individuality and me being like, I'm the only Raynique that, you know, and you'll never
find another one. And then here, it was like, no, but you just like everybody else. And
everybody else was just like you. So you just go and fall into line with what everybody
else is doing is more simulated than I had ever known. And then I expected, because
culturally in California, like I think the diversity amongst people of color and the unity
among people of color was very different, it's very different in California. Like, first of
all, I see more different types of people of color than just black people. And here I only
see black people.
And so that was something to get used to. And just the unity amongst persons of
color for me is in Charleston, it's just non-existent. There is no, there's just black and
white. And I wasn't used to that. And I also wasn't used to like, in your face racism that
�was just like there. And I definitely wasn't used to seeing that, like in your, I knew that I
knew of racism, I've experienced racism, but I think here, I experienced it like really in
close and live in HD. Like it's in the schools, it's in the water, it's in the, it's in the feeling
when you walk into a room. And I had never felt that before, like Charleston is literally
separated by black people and white people. Like the streets are separated, the schools are
separated, the, everything was like a segregated city. And I was like, what did I walk
into? And my children also were like, why would you bring us here? So it was, it was
very traumatic.
GH: But you stayed?
RS: Yeah, I did. Cause I'm not no punk. You know, I was also like, that's how my
environment grew up, growing up in Watts. It's like, you, ain't just gonna tell me what to
do. And if you tell me what to do, like we got a problem. Cause now I have to fight you
for that. And I have to, you know what I mean? Like I had like, I'm going to fight for
that. Like if I said, I'm here now, so what you going to do about it? Like, if you're going
to it's, it's kind of like a make me, you know, you want me to leave, make me, put me out.
And that was my whole attitude. Like, if you want me to out, put me out, do something
about it. You want, you want me to shut up, shut me up then kind of thing.
So it was just all of the rebellion from what I had, LA is a very even though like,
there's like the racism might be a little bit more scaled back. It's a very like aggressive
city. So like, as like, I feel like here in Charleston, people are more like, that's this
Southern hospitality that cloaks the racism. It's like, you're nice, nasty to people where
you're like, Oh yeah, bless your heart and all that. And in LA it's like, what's up, you
want to fight? Like, it gives like outwardly like aggressive in here. It's just aggressive, but
�I'm a sneaky aggressive, which I couldn't stand. And it just made me more agitated and
want to fight back against it more. So, I think I'm just here by a rebellious heart.
Honestly,
GH: The city needs those. Definitely. So is that what pushed you towards the
Justice Ministry? Is that how you found them or was there another series of
circumstances?
RS: So my family was involved in a, in a very social justice church. I would say
it's, it's, it's the most active in social justice that I have witnessed since I, like I said, I
grew up with this faith tradition, but I had never saw Christianity in the way that I do
now. Whereas Jesus was not just somebody who was just like this soft white feeble
person who was just like, Oh, if you hit me, I'm going to turn the other cheek. And I'm
going to be like, and this was my first experience with Jesus as a person of power, like
real life. Like I always, like, in my mind as a child, he was a person of power as in he
could do things and he could make things happen. But like now Jesus is a person of
power as in like a human form of power.
Like he, his power was like related to me, if that makes sense. And he, he, wasn't
just this omnipotent thing that I couldn't touch. I, and he was like, somebody that I can
relate to somebody that hurt and felt hurt and got angry and got mad and just snapped and
did stuff about it. Like he got mad at these people. He like literally turned over the tables
and was like, what y'all doing. You're not going to act like this. And like, I was like, that's
me, but I had never, I had never witnessed that in my faith. Like, because growing up it
was just like Jesus said, be calm, Jesus said, you know, be like Jesus and walk away from
that thing. And it was always like when I was angry, that was of the devil and that was
�like evil and that was bad. And that, that was something you should not do. And I had
never learned about like a righteous anger that caused you to react and to make things
change. And that's what I saw in the Justice Ministry. I saw people of faith who got angry
and were like, you're not going to treat me like this. You're not going to walk all over me.
You're not going to walk all over my friends. And they called out people in power. And I
was just amazed by that. And then, it was the first time for me in Charleston that I saw
the diversity that I saw in California. I saw all different kinds of people, all different
kinds of faith traditions. And they were righteously angry and doing something about it. I
was like, this is lit. I'm going to do this too. So I wanted parts of that. I was like, even if
you don't, even if I don't have to do nothing, whatever I have to do to be a part of this
group, this is what I'm gonna do. And I just start, you know, going to whatever meetings
that I could go to and just really learning everything that I could learn about what and
why.
And it made me see like Dr. King in a different way. It made me see Malcolm X
in a different way. It made, you know, it made me see all of these folks who I had looked
at through this lens of this, you know, other Jesus, it made me see them in a different
light. And maybe cause I was like Dr. King was just all soft. He just didn't want to fight
nobody. You know? And then I was like, wow, no, what he did for his time was radical.
And what he did was amazing. And I just, you know, it just encouraged me
When I felt injustice to, to react in a different way, because remember I grew up
and my reaction was to fight physically. Like we're going to physically fight, but now I
could fight you mentally and now I can fight you spiritually. And I can fight you with my
words and with my actions and with the power of a multitude of people who felt like me,
�you know what I mean? So it was just, it was amazing to me, like it was like a high that I
had never gotten before. It was like, how did this happen? So--.
GH: So you didn't, you didn't have to transition really (00:26:02). Did you have to
adjust to this new conception of Christianity and of passion and justice?
RS: I think there was a period. Yeah, I do. I think, I do think there was like, and
there still is probably some transitioning happening. Because for 30 years I was this
person who just, when they got angry, they got angry, you know, and that, and they had
all of this other and they just, and, and I think too, like when you're angry in the physical
way, you're not processing it. It's not being worked out. And it was never being thought
about like, why, why is this doing this? What is causing these feelings? So this new
process of like trying to be like, Jesus, I think it was like, why do I think like this? Why
do I want this? Why am I angry at this? Why am I feeling this? What do I want to do with
this? How do I want to harness this power? What, what is the next step to this? It was
very, it is very thoughtful and planned out. It's not like just outrage of, it which is what I
think when you grow up in that environment, you feel you, because you see your cousin
being killed in front of you and you can't do anything about it. And you just have like a
rage balled up. And so you just walking around with aggression, that's not being
expressed. And this was like expressing that aggression in a positive way, I think.
But it is a transition to answer your question and it, and I think it's just, I think it's
something that will be ongoing. Like this is not like it doesn't, it's just always going to be
this process of like the next transitioning to something different. Every, lifelong, when
they say you like learning something all your life, this is that, that process. If That makes
sense at all.
�GH: God molding you over time.
RS: Over time. Like literally, like I tell people and people laugh, when I said
people that have known me for a long time, I'm like, I am so not who I used to be and it's
just really. It's like, the shedding of a new skin, like you just don't even recognize the old
person. So it's been an experience.
GH: So have your kids been exposed to your activism? Are they a part of that or
is it something that you keep separate or--.
RS: No, they are when there were, when this last past summer when we were
protesting, and I have had, they're teenagers now. And so I have conversations with them
and they've experienced enough injustice for themselves that they are able to identify it,
call it out. And I, my middle daughter used to be very introverted and shy. She's still a
little bit introverted and shy, but she, it doesn't stop her now from like, she'll write the
principal a letter and say, I don't like this. This is happening. And this is not fair. This is
not right. Or like go to a teacher and say, you should not be doing this. And you should
not be talking to people like this or, you know, really standing up and doing things that I,
I'd never thought she'd be doing because she was so--, but I think the experiences that
we've had here in like with our own things that have been unjust towards us, cause there
have been a lot and just experiencing that.
And then I take them to every meeting. Every, they've sat through every meeting,
they've heard countless testimonies, we have house meetings and they've sat through,
how they told their own stories and shared of themselves with others and, you know,
fellowshipped with others around, you know, injustice enough over these past six years
that they're now able to, like I said, identify it, call it out and name, and do something
�about it for themselves. So that, and that makes me as a mom like, Oh, okay. I did
something great. To see them like, you know, even guiding their, their peers to be like,
you know, you shouldn't do this or, you know, let's have a conversation about this. Or
when I, my oldest daughter is 18. And I sometimes, like through social media, like she,
her friends will say something like, especially during election season and, you know,
people were saying all kinds of crazy things that she would like call her friends out on
social media and be like, you know, that was dumb. Why would you say that this is why
you shouldn't say that? Or, you know, whatever. So it's actually pretty cool.
GH: That's amazing. So I guess I came across a mention of you in a discussion of
affordable housing in Charleston and about your move here. And is that something that
has played a major role in the, I guess the way you've decided to focus your activism?
RS: Yeah, I think so, because I just, I'm the type of person who, like, if I know
something that you can do to better yourself, or if I've done something that may work for
you and, I'm just the type of person who wants to share, you know, the knowledge that I
have or anything. I'm, really anything that I have. I just want to share whatever I have
with whoever is in need. That's just the way I was raised to, if somebody's hungry, feed
them. If somebody is cold, make them warm and if they need, you know, if they need
something, give it to them. So I think it's another thing that has kept me here is because
like I had so many problems finding housing and I felt like I'm pretty smart. You know, I,
I never had these problems anywhere else.
And, I feel like I can just navigate through things, but I felt like if I can't navigate
through these things, how many other people are having this problem? You know what I
mean? Like how many other people are having this problem and they don't know how to,
�how to find resources or they are not able to network with people because a lot of people
lack the skill of networking. They don't have that ability. Or like, just anything, like if
they just don't know that these things exist, how are they living? What is there? And if
this is my, I felt like my quality of life had, I had these thoughts and expectations of like,
when I got to Charleston, my, like I was going to have affordable housing and I was
going to have a job that was going to like, be able to, I was going to be able to afford
where I stay at.
Like I was going to be able to give my kids like this better life than what I had
come from, you know? And I came here with that expectation. I'm like how many other
people come here with the expectation that life is going to be better only to be
disappointed, to be homeless, to be, you know what I mean? All of these things. And I
think that just really drives me to like, I can't leave here until like, I've made an impact on
housing. Like you gotta get some better housing before you push me out of here. You
know what I mean? It goes back to that rebellious heart. Like you, ain't going to get me to
leave until you give some more people, some housing, like I'm going to be leaving all of
these people who don't have what I, what I came here for.
You got to get some better school systems. Particularly for black and brown kids,
the school system has to change because my kids experienced these types of things in this
school system. So, you gotta make this better for the people who are going to come after
me, because they're going to be people who come after me who going to be looking for
the same thing. And what did I do to help make that better? I didn't do nothing. All this
I've been here the whole six years. And I didn't do nothing to make that better. So the
next set of people are going to come here and I'm supposed to just leave it for them. No,
�they got to say, I'm going to finished what Raynique started or this, you know, something
you can't just not. So, I think that, that has kept me like striving for better because I just, I
don't want to leave it the way I saw it. That's just like you come into a room and the room
there's trash on the floor. You gonna just walk right over the trash, or you going to just
get a broom and dustpan and pick it up? I'm the person that's going to, even if it's not my
house, I'm gonna clean it up and put it away. Cause that's what I was taught. So--.
GH: So how long did it take you to find housing when you first started, I guess
trying to find somewhere to live here?
RS: So when I initially came here was in July of 2015 and I got a housing
voucher. I had my housing voucher from LA, which I transferred here, which I expected
(laughs) that I was going, it was going to be easy for me to find a place, right? Because I
have a voucher from the state that says that they're going to pay my rent no matter what
that's, what a housing voucher is. So even if I don't have a job, whatever the case is, the
person that owns this house is protected because the state says that they're going to pay X
amount of dollars for me and my kids to be able to live here. Right. And I was like, this
should be easy.
So many people do not accept the section eight voucher because mostly because
of the stigma, that section eight people who are on section eight, don't take care of their
homes, people who are on section eight are lazy. People who are on section eight, you
know, receive welfare. And they, you not, that's all you're going to get, which if that's the
rent, that's the rent. You know, if the rent is $900 and section eight is paying you $900,
what else are going to ask for? You know? But just because of all of these stigmas around
section eight housing like or low-income housing is what I found. It wasn't necessarily
�that they didn't trust it, and that they didn't trust me. They just didn't trust section eight
voucher holders, period. And then even though I have a section eight voucher that
guarantees X amount of rent, I still needed to make three times the amount of rent in
order to qualify, to rent the house.
When South Carolina's minimum wage, the most I had made when I was here was
just twenty-five thousand dollars for me and three kids. So how can I, you know what I
mean? So how was I going to be able to even meet the qualifications that you had when I
was not making it? And at the time I was making twenty-five thousand dollars, that was
me working three jobs and having three kids. So, it was like, literally, how do you expect
for someone to meet these qualifications? Like it was, the expectations for a person to
own, to have their own place was ridiculous for a single mother of three kids. I just could
not, I, there was no way that I was going to make, I was going to make it. So with section
eight, you always have, you already have these other rules as well. You only have a
certain, you have a time limit that you can find a place. So they give you three months.
Then they, you could get a three month, one, three month extension in South Carolina.
So that's only six months to find a house under these stipulations that somebody is
going to rent a section to a section eight voucher holder. And that you're going to meet
the qualifications of making enough money to qualify. Even though you have somebody
saying, here's the amount of money every single month guaranteed, and nobody would do
it on the, I got, so I ended up having, I ended up exhausting my entire voucher twice, and
then I had to get an extension from California in order for me to have one more month.
And I found a place to stay on the very last day that my volunteer was going to expire at
five o'clock. I signed my paperwork and didn't lose my voucher.
�It was extremely hard. So that just gives you like this. And this is not just my
experience. This is other people. And, it had to do also with the quality of the homes. So
if I wanted to just find any old place, it would be me and all three of my children in a one
bedroom house and, or a one bedroom apartment that was as big as my living room is
now. That's what I would find. That was the amount of money that would qualify me
with the $25,000 a year, a one bedroom for all of them. My son is six one.
And, section eight was okay with that. They were like, well, if that's all you can
find, you know what I'm saying? That's all you got. You just got to deal with that. While
people that live where I work, I lived in North Charleston because when we came we
lived with family. I lived in my grandmother's house, my children, me and all my
children slept in one bed. And so I went to, I found it when I found a job, I found a job in
Mount Pleasant where there's like these huge million dollar homes. And so I would go
home every day and sleep in the bed with my kids and come and work over here where
people have like a huge backyard and a six bedroom house.
And I was living, working, and driving a car that had three bad tires and one good
tire. I get out the car, put some air in the tire, go to work and come back outside all the
time. It'd be flat? Push my car to the gas station, put some air back in there, go pick up all
my kids come--. I was also traveling, spending majority of my time traveling to and from
work every single day, because it was like two hours to get there two hours to get back.
So, it was just the quality of life. Like I said, was just, it was diminished. So it took a lot
of faith to God. What is this? Why is this? How is this?
GH: So you're I'm going to jump around if that's okay. Your family was already,
were they already a member of Charity Missionary Baptist?
�RS: My family was already members there. My uncle's a deacon there. My aunt is
a minister there, so they've, they've all been here for years. And then I came six years
ago. My dad's been here now, three years. My dad's been here. And he went through the
same phase the first year. It was like, why did I come here? Everybody went through the
same hardship.
GH: So I guess I mean, how has the transition been? I know you were, you were a
team leader, correct. Can you tell me about that? About being a team leader for, I guess
for Charity Missionary with the Justice Ministry.
RS: With CAJM. Yeah. So, that was hard cause I was a team leader and I didn't
know nobody. And I took the team leader role under the direction of my pastor, because
he was like, this is what you got to do. Everybody got a job here. This is what you're
going to do. I was like, Oh, okay. This is what I'm gonna do. And I knew nobody, but my
family and it was like six of them. And they were already on somebody else's team. No, it
just, it, I told myself that this was how I was going to make friends. I was going to
introduce myself and I was going to be a part of the Justice Ministry. And I want you to
come to this meeting and really just like, give it this good old sales pitch, which clearly
didn't work.
But I just, it really was how I got to know people. It was, it became that's just how
I, who I knew. That's who I know here, who I know here is people who do justice, love
mercy, walk humbly with God. Like all of the people who I know have that same
mandate and they walk in that same--. They might not be in the same faith tradition, but
they walk in that same understanding that we are here to make the world better and to use
our righteous anger in efforts to do that. So it did help in a sense of making friends. And
�what do you do? Oh I'm part of the Justice Ministry. So, and that's literally how I started
talking to people and my general introduction to everybody, I go to Charity and I'm a part
of this ministry.
So, it worked, he said, that's what you're going to do. And that's what I did.
GH: Exactly. So how was the, I guess the transition or the move from being a
team leader to being an organizer?
RS: Oh, so I think I tell my, I tell my lead organizer. I was so bad as a team leader
that she had to, like, they had to find something else for me to do. It was just so sad. Part
of being a team leader is like, you have to you're trying to build these relationships with
folks. So, normally a team leader would use their relationships that they already have
existing and just, you know, build upon those relationships. I had no relationships. And
so it didn't really work for me to I wasn't really keen on finding, people's like, selfinterest at the very beginning, like understanding, like, why are you here? Like, it just
was taking so long. And I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was really good at it. And then, but I
had this passion for the change that I wanted to see, I think.
And so an organizer was like, I was, we were building relationship and she was
listening to me like this job doesn't pay me. And it's just really not what I want to do. I
really would love to be like helping people more. And I want to be doing, I'm passionate
about like really making a difference in the community rather than what I'm, what I'm
doing now. And so she heard that and she was like, well, there's, this is not a thing that
you could do now, but why don't you apply for this administrative position with CAJM?
And so I was like, okay. And so I applied for the administrative position and during the
interview Treva our lead organizer was like you ever thought about being an organizer.
�And I was like, what's the organizer? What is that? She was like kind of explaining it to
me. And then like I put in my application and I drove all the way to Virginia with that
bad car, with all the bad tires and did this interview and stayed in these people's house
who I didn't even know and had like no money and had to borrow money and do all this
stuff and stayed there for three days and came back and was like, I'm gonna get this job.
I'm gonna get this job, and did not get the job. And then, so I was like, Oh, okay.
And so I just went and I went to more trainings. I got more understanding. I kept coming
to the Justice Ministry. I kept being a part of it. I kept trying it out as a team leader. I
kept, you know, trying to build the relationships in the community. And I was
encouraged to apply two more times. And the third time was a charm and that was a
transition, that it was just another buildup to, you know, make me better. I wasn't ready
the first time. And then the third time I was, so it was good. It was character building.
GH: So what were you doing before that?
RS: So, I had several jobs. I was driving Uber. I was working, at a call center. I
was working, my main job was working at a mortgage loan processing company in
Mount Pleasant and then just other odd, I worked at a catering company and I worked at
Bosch at night and I just was doing all kinds of stuff. So I'm trying to make the ends
meet.
That was hustling. Yeah. I wasn't going to not eat. So, like I said, I grew up in
survival mode, so I knew I just needed to survive by any means. And as soon as I said,
we came all the way out here and I didn't have, I think I just realized that I had, I don't
think I had the, I knew I didn't have the money and I just didn't have the energy that it
took to go back home either. It just took a lot to like pack up everything that I had and
�move it across the world. And I just was like, I've gone, I've moved. Because even when I
was finding a place to stay the lady from the section eight place, she was like, just go
home, every week. But I would come and I'd be like, I haven't found anything. She'd be
like, why are you here, bye just go home. And I'd be, like why would I do that? Like,
why? Like I said, that rebellious heart, like, you want me to go? Why are you trying to
get me to leave?
GH: Yeah. You already used too much energy. You couldn't give up then.
RS: No, I did too much. Yeah. All my stuff was in the inside of my car. I had
spent all my savings to pack up my life and come here and let my shoes get moldy in my
grandmother's garage, I was not doing that. I was like, girl, I lost my shoes. Do you
know? I lost my shoes. We are not doing that. She didn't understand that. So--.
GH: I bet through all of that, you ended up learning your way around Charleston
fairly well, there's one way to learn Charleston. That's
RS: Do you know how many times we got me and my kids? That was a thing
every weekend, we would just go get lost. And, just like also, because my grandmother
was just mean, we would just like go to the library and like spend the day there, or go to
the beach and spend the day there, or just like drive around and look at houses that we
wanted to live in and dream about, like what we were going to do. And just all of that
kind of weird, crazy stuff. We just had hope. That's what it was. Lots of hope and not a
lot of, just a lot of hope.
GH: So, since being with the Justice Ministry, are there any like particular
experiences in terms of activism that have really stood out to you or even in terms of, I
guess, faith building that have you know been just really impactful to you?
�RS: Well, all of it has been impactful to building my faith. I think it has just, like I
said, this experience has really changed my views on who I thought God was and who he
really is, and really who I am as well in my faith. And then the other part of the question
was, has it changed my views on activism?
GH: No. Anything, any experiences that have stood out in terms of your activism?
RS: Oh, all of them. When we first came to Charleston, we were, when I first
came to Charleston, one of the things that we worked on was getting the Charleston City
Council, I mean the Charleston Police Department to do an audit for racial bias. They had
been working on that before I came here. And I think we were two years into it before
when I became an organizer. So just to see that whole process of like the City Council
going from like, no, we don't have a problem to like, yes, we do have a problem with bias
and our policing, and yes, we will do an audit. And just to see how that unfolded, like, I
said again, with that power of persistent people power, I'm just always so amazed by that,
by how it can change. It has the ability to change minds and mindsets and just the work
that we do, I think becoming an organizer and like being a team leader is one thing.
And like seeing that in that aspect, but as an organizer, seeing the resiliency of
people, (00:54:30) like that is amazing to see like the defeats and then to come, like all of
these people who come back and like lift each other up to like, do it again. You know
what I mean? Like all of these people like have the courage enough to go back and say
like, we didn't win this one, but we're gonna try again. Let's do it, let's do it over. Maybe
we didn't see this part. Let's look at the, let's look at the research again. Let's go back, let's
call some more people. Let's find some more people who want to do this. Like even that,
�cause people say no all the time. And I remember as a team leader, like so many people
like hanging up in my face cause they didn't know who I was.
And like just the resiliency of the people to like never stop and just be so
persistent in everything from like making sure our organization is funded. Do we want it
to hire another organizer? So, like the people like poor people came out of their pocket
and like gave what they had to make sure that we got, we were able to hire another
organized. We were able to have trainings. We were able to, you know what I mean?
Like where do they do that at? Like it's amazing to see like the power of people is the
most amazing thing to me.
GH: So how has COVID impacted that sort of dynamic? Has it had a major
impact on the Justice Ministry in terms of how y'all operate?
RS: Yeah, we had to change a lot of stuff. So, and a lot of what we do is, you
know, us coming together, being in the same presence, being around one another. Like I
said, one of my excuse me, one of my experiences, my first experiences was seeing the
diversity in the room and to walk into the room and to see that here in Charleston, like
people of all faith traditions, people of all colors, just working together being one of the
most impactful things. And me just always expecting that when I, when I go out to stuff
like that. And so COVID of course just knocked that out, because now we can't gather.
We can't be in the room together and it feels like we're all like separated in these spaces.
And I think one thing that we saw, especially in the African-American congregations is
just like the real disparity amongst that group of people, as opposed to like our
predominantly white congregations who have just like, who are more affluent in where
they live, the spaces they have and just their ability to move, to change, you know, for
�whatever reason, because whether it be, you know, having a laptop, having the phone,
that's able, being able to, you know, go out and buy stuff to, to adapt to this.
You know, it just seems like it was a gradual come through for the AfricanAmerican congregations and it's still very slow to adapt to like the virtual environment
really. I still have congregations that struggle with, you know, how to zoom, how to get
on YouTube, how to use Facebook. And it made me see like how we take for granted that
the ability to do these things. Like a large portion of our organization is older. Just, we
think that, you know, everybody is like, can comprehend like what to do when your zoom
crashes. And then you have this 70 year old person that's like Raynique.
I have no idea how to like log back in. And this was person who was like a
teacher for 30 years, you know, you're like, well, Ms. Such and such, like, you gotta learn
how to use the computer. And it's not that simple. They didn't grow up with this
technology. This is unknown to them. And it's just like, you know, you just really get to
see the close gaps. So, and unfortunately like a lot, a lot of things in our society, black
and brown people are more susceptible to those disparities than anybody else. So just,
and then just you've grown to know.
And love these people whom you work with and work for and to see COVID take
them away. That I think was the hardest thing to watch as people just disappeared and not
just people disappear from death. Yes. But they also just disappeared into a seclusion.
I recognize how this ministry was strong in other ways of like, it really gave
people hope. It really gave people something to do, it really just was their thing, you
know? And so to watch, I know we have some members who have just deteriorated
because of like the lack of being close, the lack of, you know, you, we recognize that. I
�think we just recognized the need that we have for one another during the whole thing, if
that makes sense.
GH: One hundred percent, it really does. So, I guess, where do you, where do you
hope to see the Justice Ministry move forward after this?
RS: Surprisingly like I think through it all like the death and the trauma and
everything that we went through this past year, I think it made us stronger. I think we
came out on top. I think that most of us, I think that it was an eye opener for those who
are just like, I'm going through the motions with justice and saying like, you know,
there's some folks that like, I'm a throw money at this thing at this problem. And, you
know, feel okay in my spirit like they. Once COVID happened I think that you couldn't
say that anymore because now I think it kind of leveled the playing field for everybody
and rich and poor people saw that like you are susceptible to, you can lose everything at
the swipe of a finger, you know, and it kind of put us all on and it kind of put us all at a
different level of understanding.
Like I said, that we needed one another and that everybody deserves a safe place
to stay or, you know, all this, everybody deserves that equality. I think most of us
understand that now. And so I just, I see us growing, honestly, I see more people opening
their eyes. I don't, I don't, I don't see us growing so much right now that we don't have a
need for a Justice Ministry, but I see so much more potential for I've hoped that more
people will be involved. More people will be involved for the right reasons in that. I have
hope for Charleston that I didn't have before, because, because it's what I've seen, what I
see now and how I see people working now and how I see people thinking now and how I
see people moving now, you know, not just because of COVID, but because of like, I
�think I look at COVID like something that just slowed us all down and like put us at a
freeze and was like, look at yourselves, look at what you're doing.
Do you want to be like, this is like, it challenged us to be like, is this the person
who you really want to be, is this the nation that you really want to be? Is this the city? Is
this the state that you really want to be like, who are you? And so I think people are
saying like, I don't want to be that. I want to be fair. I want to be just, I want to help other
people. I needed help six months ago, you know, I was in a place where, and that's the
thing, like a lot of people were removed from meeting help and then needed it. And then
they were like, Oh, this is what that feels like. I don't want to ever feel this again, just the
same way, like me. Like I experienced that thing with housing. I experienced that thing
with the school district. I experienced that thing with my car and I was just like, I don't
want to ever feel like this again. And you know what? I don't think anybody else should
feel like this either. So, whatever's in my power to do, I'm going to do so I do see us
growing because people are going to feel like that.
And then in a few years, you're going to look around right now, we got 39
congregations, but this is the Holy City. And it's a church or congregation on every single
corner in Charleston. And I really have hopes that majority of those congregations will
have a Justice Ministry because of CAJM.
And if I have to go knock on all they doors, I will.
GH: I have no doubt that you would. So how has the recent events for the Black
Lives Matter movement and particularly that deaths of George Floyd and Breonna
Taylor, has that impacted, I guess, either caused more people to come to y'all or has it
changed the mission at all? Or I guess what I'm trying to get at--.
�RS: I don't think it has changed the mission. I think CAJM as a whole has always
realized that Black lives matter. And I think that is something that we've been trying to
tell the rest of Charleston. And I think that we've just been a space for people who have
had the aha out loud to come and say, Oh yeah, this is, and most of them have just been
like, yeah, I'm going to give this money to help this cause because I just listened. It was
me. I messed up. Here you go. Here's some money and kind of still do with the, throwing
the money at a thing, which is okay, cool. We accept that. But for a lot of folks, I think
it's just been like, well, what can I do? This was wrong. And an awakening moment of
like, we can't keep operating in this same vein.
So how can I be a part of changing that? So, we've gotten many, many, many,
many a call to do that. I want to do something different. Even folks who are not
necessarily aligned with any faith tradition, which we welcome as well, or like, I just
want to do what's right. You know, I just want to do what's right. And it's, this feels right.
So how can we do that? So, and they see the work that we've done before and they see
the work that we're continuing to do. Like this is in line with where we want to go. And
that's exciting to me cause like, think of all the other stuff that we can do and other things
that we could change, if there's like more and more, the more people we get, the more
things we can change to where Charleston won't even look the same in the next ten years,
you know? Cause a lot of people are going to be doing. A lot of people can be thinking
like me, how can I change the world? So I'm excited about that.
GH: I want to go back to, you mentioned something about the school district. You
had some struggles with the school district.
�RS: Yeah. The disparities for Charleston towards black and brown children, black
and brown, it seems like black and brown children are an afterthought in this district.
Like--.
They're just the little nappy headed step child that nobody wants to, nobody wants
to love. And the way it's similar to the judicial system of America, like nobody wants to
own that it's pretty messed up for them. And it wasn't designed to help them. It wasn't
designed to create opportunity for that group of people or to even see them at all. And so
it treats them like that. And then you almost have to be magical in order for you to move
past this system.
Like my daughter struggled in math and science and so that's, she's always
struggling, but instead of helping her, they've pushed her further and further behind,
seemingly. Instead of giving my son opportunities to expand his mind, they've just given
him classes that don't challenge him at all whatsoever. And then when he's bored in class,
they label him the troublemaker and suspend him from school when he's bored, because
you're not challenging him. You know, they praise white children, and give them and
give them less accountability for discrepancies and give them a way out of conflict rather
than addressing conflict and holding them accountable for actions like they do black
children. Example is my son and went to school in Mount Pleasant. He and four other
little boys. They were in the second grade, they all were playing and they were all were
play fighting really rough.
My son was going to be suspended. The only child that was going to be
suspended because he was the only child that was seen as the aggressive child in the
school, in the, in that group of kids. He was put out of class for asking, literally asking a
�question to the teacher. He, they were teaching something and he asked, he asked the
teacher in the social studies class. And he said something to the effect that, well, that
isn't, I didn't read that. I didn't learn that about this part of history or this part of this thing.
There was something about slavery and where he was like, well, what happened to the
Kings and Queens? And they were like, no, these people were slaves and he, no, but
black people weren't just slaves. They were Kings and Queens. The teacher was upset
about it. The class is like, instead of using that as a teaching moment for yourself, even,
you know--.
You labeled him as a bad child and put him out. My daughter at school, in Mount
Pleasant, she got a bad grade on a test and she's again, very anxious, but she has high
hopes for herself. And so, she got a bad grade on a test and she was so sad and she was
just, just distraught. And so, she was crying like any other third grader would cry and
they would just feel so bad about it. And she so she cried and she cried. And so, they sent
her to the principal's office for crying. And then the principal said, if you don't stop
crying, if you don't stop crying, I'm going to call the SRO officer.
And so that made her like extremely--. She's like you're going to call the police on
me for not, for crying. And so, when I got to the school, she was, like literally
hyperventilating having an asthma attack crying because she was now, she was in fear
because she just watched black bodies die at the hands of police officers. And you just
like literally threatened her life in her own eyes. You know, because now you're going to
call the police because I won't stop crying. Like just these things that they do to black and
brown children here that just antagonize them and make them feel so small and make
them feel so much less than like they don't matter. And then you wonder why they act
�like they don't matter because you treat them like that every single day you treat, you
treat them. Like they just, they're not special. And they are.
And I--. I don't understand it. But I can't, I can't leave because you're just going to
treat somebody else's child the same way that you treated my child. And that's not fair. So
we gotta get better. We gotta get better. It's, I've never, I didn't know what it was like to
live in the civil rights movement until I lived in the civil rights movement.
GH: We've got to make a change.
RS: Yeah. We, Charleston County school district suspend black and brown
children almost ten times more than they suspend white children almost ten times more.
During COVID it didn't take a rocket scientist to know that the children who were
in who were the most in need, where the children were right in the North area who didn't
have access to technology, didn't have a computer, didn't have all of those things. And
when their grades started to fail and to fall, and they have this extreme loss of learning,
we went right back into a test standardized testing. During that time we had standardized
testing during COVID when we had this extreme loss of learning. And then when it came
time for school choice, you know, we did, we still use that same data from this same year
where we know that these children will be at a disadvantage. And we use that same data
to calculate where these kids were going to go to school. The next, the very next year,
when they did their poorest ever, we still use that same data to get them into a school.
That would be a better choice for where they were when children right on the other side
of the bridge had a different, had a different story. We're actually in person school.
We got to do better. And we, and we don't say anything. Nobody says anything.
Nobody, nobody says nothing. We just go and we operate like it's business as normal.
�Then we give this false narrative that there's the there's equality in the schools.
When we know that there's not, we know that it's not, we know that the students that go
to school in the north area are not even getting in the same--. They’re not even being
academically challenged. Like the kids on the other side of the bridge, they don't even
have the same work. And I can attest to that because my kid had been to school on both
sides of the bridge. They don't even have the same level of work. Not even the same
level. It makes absolutely no sense. It's disgusting. Actually.
GH: Do you mind if I ask what you mean by the bridge? Cause I know like here
in Summerville, we have a geographical definition. We use I -26 as a divider between
main Summerville and Ladson Summerville. And it kind of, there's an economic
difference. Yeah. Cultural.
RS: Yeah. So, when you go to Mount Pleasant, you cross over the bridge to
Mount Pleasant, the [interstate] 526, and you're going in to Mount Pleasant schools.
Those schools have a better, they're more academically challenged. They have a better,
their schools are even cleaner. Their schools just even look better. It just looks, it even
looks physically looks better than what these, then what you're giving to these children. It
is not equal. At all. Is not an equal opportunity. You do not treat all children the same and
you're not giving every child the best the very best that you can. You don't even hear the
parents in the same way. Because when I was a parent in Mount Pleasant, you heard me
differently than I'm a parent in North Charleston.
Disgusting. The racism is disgusting and it's antiquated. And it has, it has to do
with the whole system of oppression. That's here in Charleston where you have the same
leaders for over 30 years, you have the same ways of thinking the same mindset. You're
�never getting fresh ideas. You're never getting new thoughts. You're always listening to
the same group of people to make the same decisions, to do the same things all the time
and keeping people in the same pots and never, it never changed. And nothing it's
disgusting. Charleston ought to be ashamed of itself for how it treats its own people.
GH: So I guess within the Justice Ministry, have, you seen, has there been a
struggle, I guess, to adapt amongst its members to this new idea of coming together and
working together? Or is it something that immediately clicked? Not immediately, but
yeah.
RS: Yeah, no. I think even when we add newer congregations and people who,
you know, there is a, a time frame of like the way that we do things and like everybody
adjusting to change. Cause every time we, we come together, there's something that's
different. Everybody coming together and just adapting to just like being, I think when
you're in another faith tradition it's different. Like we're all similar, but there's
differences. So, but I think what has helped that to happen is the conversations, the
relationship building, the understanding that even though we're all unique in our own,
there are some commonalities in there. Some like we all still dislike this, there's this
concept that we all deserve fair treatment, fair housing, fair, you know, and, equity. And
that's what, as long as you keep those as the grounding force, you can have those tough
conversations. People will get just like in any relationship, you'll get mad and you'll walk
away and you'll storm away, but you come back. Like, I love you and I wanna, I want to
stay together. And I think that's ultimately what has happened. We've gotten mad. We've
walked away from conversations, come back and be like, you know what? This means
�this much to me. And I love you. And I want to stay together. It's a lot of heart work to
do.
GH: So at the Nehemiah actions, have there been anything that has, there ever
been anything that shocked you or that has kind of taken you aback at all and either a
positive or negative way? I guess
RS: I think the initial shock, of like I said it all happening and the change.
Because I think my perception of Charleston was just that it will, this is what it is and this
is what it will always be. And to see that not be the case, to see the actual changing of
hearts and minds and ideals happen because of the power of people, because of the
persistency, because of the research done. And I think that was the, the most shocking
thing. Like for me, maybe not for everybody, but for me it was like this really works.
Like I can get enough people, power and enough communication in the room. Cause
that's what it is. It's a dialogue at the Nehemiah action. The people in the community who
are rarely ever heard, have the opportunity to say, this is what you did to me. And this is
how it made me feel. I don't like it. This is how you can change it. This is how you can
make it better. And then the people in power have the opportunity to say, I hear you. I
heard you. And I'm going to try to change it. Or I'm going to try to rectify the hurt, it's
very restorative for the community if they allow it to be.
GH: So--. Trying to gather, sorry, how was the pushback that y'all faced? Has that
been difficult to handle or is it something that you've just kind of taken in stride as it's
come or--.
RS: I think it's a combination, (1:23:10) It’s hurtful that the people that you've
elected to represent you will not meet with you, not take the time out to hear your
�thoughts and you've supported them in their endeavors and then you just, you know,
when you need their support, they're not there, is kind of a slap in the face. So that's
hurtful, I think. And then it's also like, well, I expected that of you, you know, I expected
you to act that way. So let me just go ahead and try something different or try it a
different way. It's a combination of them both.
GH: So, I guess what is your experience with the selection process for choosing
what, or for being a part of the process of what the Justice Ministry chooses to focus on,
or, you know, what your mission is going to be for a particular year? What has your
experience been with that process?
RS: My experience has that it's an opportunity for, especially for people of color
and communities of color, to have an opportunity, to have a seat and have to sit down and
have the conversations that they wouldn't never have. We wouldn't have like these
regular people conversations. We always have to have like one representative from our,
from our group of people, our, our community, our neighborhoods stating these things
that we talk about amongst ourselves. But this is the opportunity for you as an individual
person to come up and say, this is what I don't like. This is bothering me. This is a
problem for me and my family. And to share that amongst a larger group. And then the
next step in that process will be for the groups to identify those problems, name them all,
and then to vote on which one is the most pressing.
So, I think, I think it's a great opportunity, particularly for people of color to come
and have that seat and express those emotions. And I talked a little bit earlier about, you
know, just having that anger and that anxiety to let some of that anger and anxiety go and
to do something like to see it formulate into a thought and be put into something positive.
�You know what I mean? And even for other faith traditions or other, other folks that are
not of color to, to see that they share something with somebody else that doesn't look like
them, that you're more connected to people who are you, who, who the world says that
you're not supposed to be anything like, you know what I mean? So it just connects us to
say that we all are human. We all have a problem. We all don't like to be treated poorly.
Let's do something about it.
GH: So, I guess one of my final questions is, is there anything that I haven't asked
about that you feel like you'd like to express about the Justice Ministry? Or is there
anything about your experience as an activist and as a member of the Ministry, that's
really had an impact on you the most?
RS: I would just say that (1:27:23) don't know if I could do what you do. Yes.
You can because you know that if you have a problem, you want to solve it. And you
know that if your loved one has a problem and you want to stop it, it's not just the, and
people think that just because we operate through, through places of faith that that's, the
only people who could be a part of this work when this is just doing the right thing for the
right, for the right, for the sake of doing the right thing is not, it's not all that deep. As,
you know, you put all these words to it. And the style is really, really pretty, but it's really
just doing the right thing because it's the right thing, helping people, because people need
help it's nothing more than that. So you can do that. That's easy. That's all I was saying.
Like, let people know that this is not, it's not as hard as you think it's not as difficult as
you think. So that's all I would say.
GH: Is the ministry also I guess as a means of not really ministering to people, but
just saying that, you know, despite everything there's people here is just like another
�vehicle for communicating God's love to people, without them having to be a member of
the faith?
RS: Yeah that's what the ministry is, it's going out and telling people like, like I
said, do the right thing or here's some help do the right thing. Here's a community like it,
this is community work. That's, that's, that's all it is. This is a community project, the
community coming together to, to, to make itself better.
GH: I've heard someone else say before that it's a beloved, the beloved
community of Charleston.
RS: Yep, yeah, all the people that we work with and work for, are people that we
love.
We're doing this to honor them, to share with them, to show them to care for
them, to love them, to love ourselves. This is as much for me as it is for my neighbor and
for my friend, for my cousins, for my grandmother, you know. It's all, it's all
encompassed into one's community work, like I said.
GH: So I guess, is there anything else you'd like to say? Or?
RS: No, I appreciate you taking the time to ask questions and to do all of this. I
wish you much luck on this project. I hope I was helpful.
GH: Very, Yes.
RS: I hope I hope this was, this is something that I hope you can use. It. That's all.
GH: Most definitely, it's been a very uplifting and also motivating. I've really
enjoyed hearing from you. I really have, I really appreciate it. So, thank you.
RS: Thank you, have a wonderful day, and let me know if you need anything else.
END OF INTERVIEW
�Edited by: Grace Ann Hall April 28, 2021
MLL 6/3/21
�
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Oral Histories
Description
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
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Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Grace Hall
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Raynique Syas
Location
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Charleston, SC by Zoom
Duration
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91 minutes
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Title
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Oral History of Raynique Syas, interviewed by Grace Hall, 9 April 2021
Subject
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African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Political participation--United States
Charleston Area Justice Ministry
Description
An account of the resource
Charleston Area Justice Ministry organizer Raynique Syas was born in Los Angeles, CA, in 1985. She remembers growing up in Watts, a typical urban area of the city, impacted by poverty, drugs, and violence. There, she also experienced a profound sense of community and the support of her family of strong women. Syas states that it was much later that she understood the systemic injustices that plagued her community and that awareness fuels her activism. Syas moved to Charleston, SC looking for better opportunities for her three children but was unprepared for the cultural differences and the racism she encountered in South Carolina. Finally, she talks about why she joined CAJM (Charleston Area Justice Ministry), first as a member and team leader and later, as an organizer. She reflects on one of the biggest CAJM efforts – the racial audit of Charleston and North Charleston police departments - and about how COVID impacted the organizing work.
Creator
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Publisher
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The Citadel Archives and Museum
Date
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2021-04-09
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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English
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Text
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Charleston (S.C.)
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1651
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Text
TRANSCRIPT– BRANDON CHAPMAN
Interviewee: BRANDON CHAPMAN
Interviewer: HANNAH COWAN JONES
Interview Date: April 12, 2021
Location: Charleston SC and Washington DC by Zoom
Length: 55 minutes
HANNAH COWAN JONES: Okay, so Brandon, just for the sake of the
recording, can you tell me your full name, where you were born and what year you were
born?
BRANDON CHAPMAN: Yeah, Brandon Chapman. Born and raised in
Charleston, South Carolina. And I was born in 1993.
HCJ: Okay, awesome. So, you call Charleston home?
BC: Yeah.
HCJ: Yeah. What was it like growing up in Charleston?
BC: I mean, I think— so I grew up in kind the Mount Pleasant area. And then
went to college at CofC, of course. And I think, you know, Charleston of course is a
beautiful place. You know, be it, the history that's here. Be it, you know, the fact that
we've got what, three beaches within like a forty-mile radius. So, of course you grow up
with that. And at the same time, I think that, you know, Charleston is known as this nice
place. We're known for our Southern hospitality. And I think that also behind that, you
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Brandon Chapman
know, there's a lot of racism in Charleston that, you know, the city— I heard a pastor that
I used to work with talk about it like a Disney World history, right? That, you know, you
go to Disney World, everything is like this magical place. And I think in a lot of ways,
Charleston is like that where it's like, you know, we're going to talk about all the nice
things in Charleston. We're going to talk about the shrimp and grits, the culinary scene,
the cobblestone streets. You're going to go down to The Battery, but we don't talk about
you know, the racism that's in the city. And we don't talk about, you know, the fact that
our education system is killing black kids. And so my experience growing up in
Charleston is one of, it's almost like a false history of, you know, we want to, we want to
be this place where tourists come and spend their money, but we're actually not going to
be this place that grapples with our history of racism in the way that not only did we talk
about it, but we also have enacted laws and policies that deals with the vestiges of
enslavement because you know, Charleston was a passport to enslavement in the United
States. Right? And so, I think that history you see the remnants of that in the current
Charleston that we see today.
HCJ: Hmm. That's very interesting. So did you feel that like in the education
system? I mean, growing up here, were you hearing this at school or what was your
education experience in Charleston?
BC: So I actually did pre-K, kindergarten in public school system, but my mother
and my grandmother decided to send me to private school. And my grandmother or my
mother's words was “Charleston County doesn't educate blacks the way they need to be
educated.” And she said, you know, not because black kids aren't capable- it's because
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Brandon Chapman
our system is one that treats white kids as a problem. Well, before we try to say, you
know, we're actually going to work to make sure they get the same education as white
kids get, right. And so and that's the conversation I didn't have with them until I was
much older. Like I wasn't, when I went to first grade, they weren't really giving me that
nuance like that.
HJC: Right.
BC: But yeah, so, you know, and it's like, I grew up in a single-parent home. My
mom didn't have the money to send me to private school. If not for my grandmother, you
know, providing financial assistance, I wouldn't have gone to private school. And so, on
the one hand, when I think about my education you know, my mother and grandmother
afforded me an opportunity to that I don’t think everyone gets as far as education. And
it's also like, they shouldn't have had to feel like they had to do that. You know, they are
taxpayers you know, our money goes through this education system. And so, there are
systems should have been set up in a way that the inequities and education wasn't there.
And it's like, you know, it's Charleston County School District, the school board has
repeatedly failed black kids. South Carolina education itself has repeatedly failed black
kids. Right? And so, you know, I get why they sent me to private school and I'm very
thankful for my education. And it's also like, there's that injustice that they shouldn't have
had to do that because the way of our system is set up.
HCJ: Right. Where did you go?
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Brandon Chapman
BC: So I went to a New Israel Christian School from first to seventh, which was
the school downtown. But they closed because they didn't have, they didn't have enough
students to be self-sufficient financially. And then ninth and tenth, I went to Ferndale
Baptist, which was in North Charleston. And that was also a school that ended up closing
down because they didn't have enough students. And then tenth, eleventh, and twelfth, I
went to Palmetto Christian Academy which was connected to East Cooper Baptist
Church in Mount Pleasant. And I did tenth, eleventh, and twelfth there.
HCJ: Okay, awesome. So, I'm hearing lots of Christian academies. Is that big in
your life? The faith-based stuff.
BC: Yeah, very much. I grew up at an AME church. You know, the church that
we call home back in McClellanville, the property was donated by my great-great-greatgrandfather. I believe it goes back that far. So yeah, the private schools I went to were
Christian private schools and you know, it’s kind of, I didn't necessarily want to, I wanted
to be a community organizer, wanted to do faith based organizing, but of course, as you
know, I ended up working at CAJM. So I did, I was deep in just faith-based organizing be
it from the Christian tradition. But also, you know, working with a synagogue mosque as
well on these various issues.
HCJ: Wonderful. So, you somehow ended up at College of Charleston. What did
you study there?
BC: Yeah, I was a double major in Political Science and African American
Studies.
�5
Brandon Chapman
HCJ: Awesome. Okay. That's great. So, I feel like you were headed towards your
future career there.
BC: Yeah, well, originally I wanted to be a lawyer. So, law school was kind of the
path I was on. I was originally Political Science at first and then you know, Consuelo
Francis you know, may she rest in peace. She pushed me. She was like, you know, you
already almost have all your Poli Sci credits. So, I was a junior at this time. I still had to
earn of course, like thirty more credits to graduate. And she was like, you know, you
could double major and get your African American Studies major instead of it being a
minor. I kind of was like, ah, no, I don't know. You know, I already have that one degree,
but then I ended up double majoring, and it wasn't until having those classes in African
American Studies where it was like, okay, so now I know the political dynamics. But for
me, it's like if you don't understand how racism has impacted so many new laws and
policies we have, you really don't know the American story. And so that's when I shifted
from law school to organizing- which law school is still could be in my future. But that's
when I kind of had that shift of now I want to organize. I was doing a paper on the Civil
Rights movement and the Black Lives Matter movement kind of comparative analysis in
Dr. [Mary] Crabtree’s class. And that's kind of when I got to, you know, reading about
Ella Baker and, you know, Dr. Monica Canyon, and understanding what they were doing
and John Lewis and came to the point of wanting to be an organizer.
HCJ: That's awesome. So would you self-identify as an activist?
BC: I call myself an organizer. Yeah, I think activist, it's a good question. Cause I
think that we kind of use it interchangeably. But I call myself an organizer because for
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Brandon Chapman
me, it's like organizing is, you know, I'm all about voting people power. And really for
me, it's like, you can have the best policy, you can word it as well as it could be, have all
these fancy words. You can have a policy down in the footnotes, but if you don't have the
power to get that policy enacted, it really doesn't mean anything. And so for me, I'd say I
identify as an organizer because I think an activist, you know, you speak out against
what's happening, you're working to fight some of that, but I don't think you specificallyyou're not specifically doing that people power building. Yeah.
HCJ: No, I like that term. So after college, what did you kind of do in that time?
Where are you looking for a job, or what were you doing?
BC: Yeah, so I at the College I started in 2016- it seems so long ago. So I, I had
begun, so, like I said, I, I did that paper in Dr. Crabtree’s class that would have been my
African American Studies capstone, so that would've been January of 2016. So, I began
looking at organizing jobs and I came across DART, Direct Action Research Training
Center, and then CAJM of course popped up. And so, I applied to that. In the meantime,
before I got the job, I went back to teaching karate and taekwondo. I've done that for
many years. And so, I went back to doing that full-time as I was looking for organizing
jobs, I think my first application would have been like June, 2016. And then you have
like writing samples you have to do. There was a second round and then the third round
had me going to Richmond in December of that year. And then I had another final
interview in Charleston, and I was offered a position in December of 2016. And then I
started organizing with CAJM in January of 2017.
HCJ: Okay. So what was your job title? Just community organizer or—
�7
Brandon Chapman
BC: Yeah, it was associate community organizer. Yep.
HCJ: Okay. Okay. So what did kind of the day-to-day look like for you?
BC: Yeah, so the day-to-day- it changed by the day it wasn't like set hours. But
really my job was I worked with initially like five, but I worked with about ten
congregations and my role was to build relationships. And so, I built relationships with
the clergy member, also members of the congregation in order to really just build a
relationship with them. So let them know who I am, my background, understanding really
what their self-interests are, you know, what they want for themselves and their family.
And really under saying one, make the faith connection to, you know, our faith traditions
call us to do this work. But then also understanding what makes them angry. And so, it
could be the fact that people are homeless on the street. It could be the fact that there is
no pre-K slots in education. Part of it could have been, you know, my mom being angry
that she felt like she had to send me to private school. So, my job was to figure out what
made them angry and to let them know that, you know, we don't have to just take this.
We can build the power, the people power necessary in order to fight this. And so that
was my role, build those relationships. I also being a, we are a nonprofit, we had
investments from our members, but also we had corporate investments that we would do.
So I was responsible for training members of the congregation that were leaders in that
congregation to ask members invest, but also to train them, to go to like the CEO of
Boeing or like the CEO of, of Trident Construction and have you know, present the
organization and let them see how you guys have money, power. But we have people
power. And as a business, you have a role in investing in this work and still training them
�8
Brandon Chapman
around that. So that was another component. But then also I specifically worked in our
housing campaign. And so, I worked with a group of about nine members from
congregations from around Charleston County to really identify the housing problem in
Charleston County. Why is it happening? Who is it happening to? But then also looking
at nationwide best practices. We came to a housing trust fund as a best practice, and then
figuring out what we need to do in order to get it implemented. Who is the decision
maker? You know, how do we get the decision maker to do this? And so that was my
kind of day-to-day. Like I said, it didn't look the same. And a given week I'd be meeting
with ten to fifteen members of a congregation, but then you have staff meetings. You
know, I tell people all the time that I got a greater understanding of where everything was
in Charleston County, because I, I grew up in Mount Pleasant, owned our area, lived
downtown for a time at CofC, did a lot of work on James Island and West Ashley. And so
when I was organizing, going all these different places, I really learned what James Island
looks like, what West Ashley would look like.
HCJ: Awesome. Well, you worked with, you know, ten congregations. Did you
ever feel like there was a conflict with, you know, different congregations working
together?
BC: I don't think I'd say so. I think that when you are working in a multi-racial
different faith tradition different socioeconomic backgrounds, you know, there's always
going to be spaces where I wouldn't say necessarily conflict, but I think that there will be
some tense moments because, you know, we all have our own biases. We all have to
challenge that. And when you're working on issues like policing, for instance, you can't
�9
Brandon Chapman
talk about policing without talking about the racism and you can't talk about policing
without connecting it to the fact that it was born out of when black folks are trying to get
their freedom from those slave catchers. Right? And so being able to tell that truth, I
think when you do that, when we live in a society where people automatically refer that
police officers keep us safe, we automatically defer to the police. It takes some time to
peel back those biases. And so I think that, you know, in my experience, there were
moments where there was tension because, you know, being in this work takes some
visceral truth-telling and that's not always easy. That takes, you know, you taking your
lived experience. You may not have experienced it as you saying, you actually, let me
take a step back and realize that I don't have this as experience. I might be looking at this
from my experience. It might be one of privilege. And so, I have to be in a space where I
listen to understand versus listening to respond. And so, you just have, I think that you
have that pop-up and I still experienced that in my current work, have you got tensions
when you're doing that visceral truth-telling and you have to, you know, you work, you
peel back the layers and work through that with your members.
HCJ: Yeah, absolutely. So, we've kind of talked about those layers in Charleston.
Do you feel like Charleston is unique in its social justice ministry with CAJM or do you
think, you know, you see this all over the US?
BC: No, I don't think Charleston's unique. I think you know, so CAJM is an
affiliate with the DART network, which has it might be twenty-four now, since I left last
year, but I think about twenty-four to twenty-five sister organizations around the country
that are doing the work and they may not be the same issues we work on because it's very
�10
Brandon Chapman
much community led or they're working on it. But more broadly in my current job, like
I'm working with folks who did work in Los Angeles, where they stopped the jail
expansion, where they stopped a 3.5 billion jail expansion. And they also work to get
Measure J pass, which took about ten percent of the county's funds, 900 million that has
to go towards housing and education. Now they don't, they do organizing, it's not from a
faith perspective, but it's so kind of that, that organizing model and that building power.
And so, I don't think Charleston is unique. And then I think it's happening around the
country. It just looks differently and it may not be faith-based organizing around the
country. Yeah.
HCJ: Okay. That makes sense. So how long were you with CAJM?
BC: Three years and four months. Yeah, because it would have been January
2017 until April of last year.
HCJ: Okay. So, if it has, you know, this coalition of faith branches, do you feel
like there's one faith branch or denomination or something in Charleston that's more
involved?
BC: Yeah, I think, you know, we, so if you looked at the congregations that made
up CAJM may very much Christian congregations now, of course, that they
denomination is so varied because we have Baptist, Methodist, AME, Presbyterian,
Catholic parishes as well. But I'd say that if you talk about traditions, which within that
you have all those branches, but I'd say Christian churches kind of where the bulk of the
work. KKBE synagogue downtown was very much involved and very much at the center
at a lot of our work. But I think that, you know, when you, when you think about the
�11
Brandon Chapman
numbers in CAJM it was Christian churches. And then, like I said, I haven't worked at
CAJM I'm in a year and all the new congregations that have come about. And I think it's,
it's still very much the Christian congregations.
HCJ: Right, right. Okay. Well, you're getting in work with CAJM, you know,
kind of on the beginning there. Do you keep up with it today?
BC: Yeah, so I you know, I still am in contact with staff and I still have leaders
that reached out to me you know, call me or text me to check in, and you know
Charleston is home for me, so it's, you know, I still keep a feel for what's going on in
Charleston- my family I’ve got to say dating back to my, my great-great-greatgrandfather. I got roots in that area in Charleston. I keep up with it. So yeah.
HCJ: Okay. Awesome. Do you ever remember a time where you met with
community resistance or anything like that to the justice ministry?
BC: Yeah, I think you know, it's, we did a lot around the audit for a racial bias in
policing and you know, the audit I think it's underway in North Charleston- has been
done in Charleston. And then when you look, when I look at it now, it's like, okay, we're
on the other side, but I remember 2017. I tell people all the time I went to so many city
council meetings that the guard knew me. You know, we, we had members from the
various Congress and speaking at city council meetings. And you know, we got a lot of
pushback from Tecklenburg you know, the mayor you know. I think organizing really
showed me how power works and why I say that is, you know, council rules were
changed. I remember, you know, there being a rule, we had this thing where, you know,
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Brandon Chapman
CAJM we're a group, we have a lot of members. And so what we would do is we wanted
to make sure we spoke out the comments that we had released spoke out against racial
bias in policing, and really pushing for the audit to happen. You know, as constituents
talking to these council members saying, we urge you to support the audit. What we do
is, you know, you had a two-minute limit. So, then the person who just got done
speaking, the next person would speak. And I remember Rabbi Alexander from KKBE
was speaking. And, you know, we, like I said, we would pass, and they changed the rule.
And so, at one point you had two minutes and you had a minute and a half. And I
remember a councilman saying, you know, after the rules have been changed, are we
really going to muffle the rabbi from speaking truth to power. And so, you know, we had
a ton of community resistance to the out of racial bias and policing. And like I said, from
Mayor Tecklenburg but then you also had it, you know, I had some congregations I work
with where I had to have conversations with them on the policing because, you know,
and this isn't like a hard rule, but I think that my experience with some of the folks I
worked with, you know, as a white person, you may not have had this experience with a
police officer, but for me, you know, I was wearing this CofC hoodie I have on right
now. And when I was stopped by Charleston police on Calhoun Street walking my way
to walk on my way to the library and Glebe and housing. I think it's Glade my memory's
a little fuzzy, but I'm going into the Addlestone library, 24 hours. We're at the point exam
season, so the library’s 24 hours. I get stopped by an officer, had a book bag on my back
and he says to me, you know, what are you doing in this area you fit? And I was like, you
know, I'm a student. Oh, well, you know, there's been some break-ins recently. And so I
just want to make sure, so it's like, you know, again, I'm wearing the CofC hoodie, I got a
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Brandon Chapman
book bag on my back and I showed him my student ID to show that, you know, it was
almost like I had to prove that I belonged in this area. Right? And so, I think that I have
that experience. A lot of other CofC students have that a lot of black CofC students have
that experience. And, you know, I think that some of the, some of the congregations I
worked with and I think a lot of white people just don't have that experience because
when I say that I had that experience, it's like, oh, wait, that happened? Oh, well, why do
you think that happened? It was like, no, you know, this story is not, you know, it's not,
it's normal for me. And it's like inside, it'd be like, you know, I wasn't surprised, but that's
my lived experience. And so, you know, we had pushback from public officials. You
have pushback from members and different congregations. And I said, again, that's
growing pains of doing this work. I think now the mayor touts the audit, you know, and
says that it's great. And that's good that he's saying that. And I think that it's always good
to have that visceral truth telling of the mayor wasn't always on the side of the audit, and
it took a collective of thirty plus congregations coming together and really speaking truth
to power in order for this to happen.
HCJ: Right. Okay. Well, do you feel like, or do you remember feeling like in
these moments you had this great feeling of success, if something good did happen or
failure if it didn't— or was that just part of the job?
BC: I think in organizing a lot of times you have more setbacks and wounds, and I
think that that's not an indictment on the work that you do. I think that the reality is that
we're dealing with systems that have function for centuries the way they do. And I think
that when you're up against that, you know, it's when you're trying to take things out of
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Brandon Chapman
the natural order and it's not natural because that's the way it should happen. That’s the
way it's been operating that there is a lot that you have to fight against. And so I think
that, you know, the policing is a good example because in the summer, and I might be
mixing up my years, but I want to say in the summer of 2017, when the council first
voted on the audit, it failed seven to six. But when we spent the next six months really
showing how the process that the city took was wrong that the firm that they were about
to hire did not have the expertise. And so, once we did that, six months later, we were
able to get to the point where we showed how illegitimate the process of use was, we got
the votes called zero in favor, right? And so, I remember the night when it failed feeling
very defeated, I was early on in an organizing. I was not the point person on that issue. I
did help and helping leaders think through council comments. And so, you know, there
was part of, it was like, man, we spent the last four or five months going to the council
meetings, you know, every Tuesday, five o'clock, every two weeks dealing with council
and the mayor changing the rules, you know, having to find parking, thinking about
paying all this stuff for this to happen. So, I think that when you organize, you know, you
have a lot of those setbacks and, you know, I think, for me, I remind myself that others
have been here before. I think about the Ella Bakers and I, what I say too is people will
love, Dr. King, they'll say he was such an amazing person when the sad reality is because
America has not changed. We're fighting the same system that he fought. And so, the
work continues. And I think that, you know, organizing is often thankless work and it's
work this hard. But for me, I remind myself that there's others that have been here before.
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Brandon Chapman
HCJ: Yeah. That's a good way to look at it. Now I know social work like you
were organizing can be so draining. So how does an organizer take care of himself and
make sure, you know, his mental health is good?
BC: Yeah, I think for me it was important to create boundaries. I did not do work
on Saturdays and just for me, I needed to have that space of to myself. I'm also an
introvert. So like I love being around people, but the way I recharge is by myself. And so
Saturdays for me was sacred me-time. But I also think, you know, I, it's easy to be kind
of on-call 24-seven, but I tried to have it to where, you know, that Saturday, but also after
nine o'clock, I try not to respond to anything. You know, I try to create space, being able
to enjoy friends and family, staying active for me like I said, I got into karate and
taekwondo for many years. So getting into that and, you know, treating that time every
week for me to do that just helped with stress levels. And, you know, I think knowing
that, you know, the work, you can’t do this work alone, right? There's other people that
get involved in this. So knowing that, knowing that I should be able to depend on my
team, my team's favor depend on me. And if the work is to stop because I'm not involved,
that means I have not done it, my job as an organizer, because as an organizer for me, I
should be able to leave and situation of which I'm working in and the work continues
because we train the people. And so, you know, knowing that they're there, there are
folks working and doing this because of, you know, and when I say training them, you
know, I learned from them just as much as they learn from me. And so us learning
together, knowing that the work is going to continue no matter who's involved. So yeah,
that, that, that's something where I think was a way that I was able to recharge it, just
knowing that, you know, I don't have to take it all on my shoulders that others are doing
�16
Brandon Chapman
this work. And that there's not one leader, there's multiple people doing this work. I think
I mentioned Ella Baker, but she says that strong, strong people don't need strong leaders
and what she said- and I might've paraphrased that, but her point was that you don't need
one person, one charismatic person speaking on your behalf, people's got a voice they can
speak. And so let us all get trained so that if for whatever reason we pass away, you
know, in the case that, you know, governments have locked people up for their activism
and organizing before- that the work continues. And so yeah.
HCJ: Yeah. Okay. So you've mentioned Ella Baker a couple of times. Who else is
kind of your role model?
BC: You know, so I've got Angela Davis and Baldwin on my wall. I'd say James
Baldwin, because I think that, I think he was a genius. I think that he had a way to
articulate things quickly and not using a ton of words, but just a brilliant mind. And
Angela Davis, because I think that for someone who was in prison, I'm pretty sure that
was on the FBI's most wanted list because she was doing this work, had the lights of, of, I
want to say when Ronald Reagan was governor of California, working to get her fired
from her college where she was professor at. So, for someone to go through all this and to
speak truth to power in a way she does and did for so many years. And I think the Angela
Davis for me, the thing I appreciate is that she's not just concerned about what's
happening in the US and I think that she understands that idea of what Dr. King say, what
happens to one happens to all and injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywherethat you cannot just be concerned about what's happening in Charleston, South Carolina.
And so I think for me, reading Angela Davis, listening to her speeches, it broadens my
�17
Brandon Chapman
horizons to where I'm thinking about what's happening in the US, but I'm also thinking
about, you know what's happening in the Inmar, right? What's happening with Israel and
Palestine, and how are marginalized people fighting an oppressive system. And not only
that, but understanding how it's connected you know, the laws that were enacted in South
African apartheid are very similar to general south, right? And so I think for me, Angela
Davis, just making those connections makes me stretch my organizing and kind of have
the intersectional approach to my organizing of- no you just can't be concerned about
what you see, right? You got to understand what's happening worldwide and not to say
that I'm going to be the one that go, and if I don't know these things, but I think that
there's a space of being in solidarity with folks that are fighting. I think folks on the
ground all over the world, they know what they're up against and being able to be in
solidarity with them is important.
HCJ: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll take us back in time a little bit. You mentioned that
story where the police officer was, you know, just being awful to you on the campus.
Was that a unique experience for you or have you experienced that before?
BC: That was, that was my first time being stopped by a police officer at CofC
and my only time and you know, I know other black students on campus that have
stopped more times. Not just once. I know other students that you know, stopped by the
same officer saying the same thing. And so, it's, it's almost like it's, I think in this work,
I've noticed that when you've been faced with injustice so long, you get used to it. And
so, you begin to normalize things, and I think there's a threat of when you normalize it
and think that this is just the way it is that it does something to you psychologically. And
�18
Brandon Chapman
so I know many other black students that this has happened to. And we've even joked
that, oh, six of us in that better not be walking together because we might get stopped.
Right. And it's like, we laugh about this and, you know, we joke about it. And it's like,
you know, when I think about it, that's not really a joke. Like, you know, this is
something that because of, you know, society deems our blackness as a threat when it's
not, we've had to operate in this way and we've changed the way that we operate versus,
you know, this racist system changing the way it operates. Right? Which is why we have
it that sixty-one years separates me and my grandmother, yet I'm fighting the same
systems that she fought against.
HCJ: Yeah. That's absolutely interesting. Is she still living?
BC: Yeah, she's in New York in Harlem. She grew up in Columbia as well.
HCJ: Okay. So you've had these conversations with her I'm assuming- about this?
BC: I part of, for me, I think my grandmother, my mom, as well, both of them
made sure that I understood. My grandmother would tell me how, when Dr. King came to
Columbia when she was at- I think it was Benedict, an HBCU in Columbia that when he
came to march against separate but separate, but supposedly equal facilities to how they
marched with him. My grandma had also told me about how much she grew up how
black kids would have to walk to school, but the white kids had a school bus. And how
from the school bus of white kids would throw rocks and bricks and spit at them as they
would be walking. And so, she made sure I knew early on the history, like an
unvarnished history of this country. So then as I got older, you know, part of why I
�19
Brandon Chapman
majored in political science was because when she would come down from Harlem and
visit, she watched C-SPAN for fun. So, she's looking at these representatives, having this
debate, the center and having this debate. And I'm just like, this is boring. As I sit and
watch it with her, I'm like, oh, actually this person's talking about how you know, this is
actually about the impact of my life, but, you know, we, I haven't, wasn't thinking about
it. And so, yeah, she we've had these conversations and, you know, I talked to her about
CAJM and work and, you know, and with the Leadership Conference on Civil and
Human Rights, now there are a lot of national work, but also some state and local. And so
we talk about that as well now.
HCJ: Wonderful. So, do you see CAJM changing over time or do you think it's
just going to be a continuation?
BC: Changing in what way?
HCJ: In any way? I mean, the work they're doing now, do you think that'll ever
change or do you think they, same social justice issues will still be relevant?
BC: Hmm. I think that you know, I tell people all the time that my goal is to
organize myself out of a job, meaning that we've gotten rid of all these different
injustices, that we've gotten rid of a system that prioritizes profits over people. But that's
a major shift that has to happen. And so, I think that CAJM is going to continue the work
that they're doing. I think that you have a group of folks that have been doing this work
for- I think CAJM is at least seven or eight years old now. So you have folks that have
been doing this work for a long time. And there are folks that have been doing the work
�20
Brandon Chapman
before CAJM, I think they're going to be continuing yet. And I think that regardless of, of
what's happening the amount of their problem you're working on that it's going to still be
in existence. I think the people might look differently because, you know, as people get
older and, you know, staff leave like, you know, the faces are different, but I think that,
you know, there's a culture of accountability that is in Charleston, I think because leaders
at CAJM have built that. And I think that I don't think it's going to stop. I think it's going
to continue to grow. I think that, you know I guess if you want to say change, I think
CAJM may be in a space of thinking through, as we continue to have more congregations
and build people power in this way you know, how does the work expand, is that you
doing some electoral work, which you know, there's a voter edge, there's a border
education just because of what we're working on our community problems, but, you
know, it could that expanded to electoral work. So, I think that it could change in that
way. And that's just hypothetically just thinking through I think that what, the amount of
conversations they have, you know, CAJM has been able to create a culture of
accountability. And, yeah, I know we're not in person now, but the Nehemiah Action is a
space where it's like, you know, public negotiations with officials and knowing that we're
doing this because so many people are suffering, and we want to make the community be
adjusted community. So, I think it will continue.
HCJ: Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of leaving, you mentioned that what prompted
you to leave CAJM?
BC: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Charleston. I'm 27 years old. And well, at
the time I would've been twenty-six, and I would tell people the longest I've been away
�21
Brandon Chapman
from Charleston is three weeks. And so, for me organizing in the city where I was born
and raised it was good in many ways. And also, I was ready to be in a different space.
And I also just got engaged- my fiancée and I wanted to live in a different- didn't want to
be in the South at the moment. So, we decided to move to DC. And I also wanted to kind
of going back on upon what I said about Angela Davis. I think that it was good to
organize in the city where I grew up. And I also was thinking more and more about how
the problems are not just relegated to Charleston alone. And I wanted to be in a space
where I was able to, to understand what's happening in the US on a nation level, a
nationwide level but also deepening my understanding what's happening globally. And so
I was ready to do organizing work around the country, which is what I'm doing now. And
it was, I was ready to have a space where I could work specifically on criminal legal
reform working to transform the criminal legal system. And I think that, you know,
organizing at CAJM, it wasn't like I organize on housing, but they, I could be doing
another issue, like a few as well, but I wanted to work specifically in a space of
organizing, they get transformed the criminal legal system, because I think for me, when
you talk about housing, education, all of that is connected through the criminal legal
system. If you can get changes in the criminal legal system at the nationwide level, but at
the state level and local level, a lot of the problems in housing and education, they
wouldn't necessarily go away, but they're still connected. Right? And so if I can get it to
where we divest some of the money that we're spending in the criminal legal system or
policing and dedicated to a housing trust fund or to the education system, some of these
problems wouldn't exist. And so, I was ready to do some of that nationwide work. And
you know, just on a personal level, I was ready to be away from Charleston, see a
�22
Brandon Chapman
different city. Like I said, you know, I grew up, it's like, I'm seeing the same things over
and over and over. So, I was ready for that. And then it's, I make just a change of pace.
You know, I still do organizing, but I'm not necessarily on the ground. And with that, you
know, I've been able to have more of a work-life balance. You know, I'm still working,
but I'm not working like eighty hours a week now, more like seventy hours a week now.
And so I was ready to just do that nationwide work and to kind of be in this space where I
wasn't, you know, I'm still organizing, but I'm not just focused on Charleston. I'm doing
work in California and Georgia, Arizona, Wisconsin, and, you know, doing stuff where
it's like, we're doing a lot of this stuff with the Hill. And so for me understanding how the
different priorities that we have as far as passing laws and bills in Congress and holding
President Biden accountable, how does the organizing coalesce with that? And how do I
navigate that? And so it's stretched me as an organizer, really it's like a puzzle. And you
know, how do I put the pieces together?
HCJ: Absolutely. Well what, where are you working now?
BC: Yeah, so I'm with the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights.
We are a coalition of over 200 civil and human rights organizations. And it was founded
in the 50s, knowing that, you know, there needed to be a coalition where, you know, so
much amazing work is happening, but oftentimes it happens in the silos. So the idea was
that if we had this, this coalition that really was all these organizations coming together
we can make sure that there's this space that really works to get these changes. And so
my role, as I said, as working with a criminal the justice program, working to transform
the criminal legal system and, you know, I participate in our task force, do stuff on the
�23
Brandon Chapman
Hill, just understanding what's happening on the Hill. But my number one priority is to
coordinate our organizing efforts at the national state and local level.
HCJ: Okay. So, do you feel like coordination of those things is different
regionally or no?
BC: Coordination of the, the Hill work or—
HCJ: Anything you're doing.
BC: What I will say that you know, what we work on in Arizona may not be the
same as what we work on in Georgia, right? Different legislatures, you've got you know,
different grassroots work that has been happening. And so that looks different now, I will
say the tenants of organizing- that doesn't change. However, you know, what's being
worked on, how we navigate that, the issues we face might be a little bit different because
there's different geographically and different state legislatures.
HCJ: Okay. Okay. And do you feel like the virtual world and the zoom world of
the COVID era has changed the look of your work?
BC: It’s definitely, I haven't met any of my staff and any of my colleagues yet in
person. Working with Leadership Conference since November. So that's like, okay, we
may not be in the office this year, so it'll probably be over a year until I meet folks. And
so it has changed some things you know, I think normally I would be traveling to one of
these places like eras, Arizona, Georgia to meet folks on the ground. And that's just not
going to happen for a long time. I think that, you know, I've been still able to do my work
�24
Brandon Chapman
but you know, in-person being able to just go get coffee with somebody, they get the note
about why that's happening via zoom. And I think a lot of people are having Zoom
fatigue. And so that's something where it's like, that's changed the work a little bit. But
we've been able to continue to work and I'm actually, you know, I'm speaking from a
place of privilege of not having to go in person into a job location. I've been able to, you
know, I can work anywhere that I have internet access. So, but yeah, it has changed that
that just in-person feel.
HCJ: Okay. And you're based, where are you based from right now?
BC: I'm in DC.
HCJ: Okay. Okay. What's something you would have told younger Brandon
before going into all of this kind of work?
BC: That's a good question. Don't sweat the small stuff. And what I mean by that
is that organizing you’re not going to get everything right. And so for me, I often focus
on what I'm not doing well before I focused on what I'm doing well. And so I think the,
the advice is don't sweat the small stuff and breathe.
HCJ: Yeah.
BC: Give yourself a chance to breathe because of work. You're not going to get
these changes in a day. So was like, don't sweat, the small stuff. Breathe. And I think
over everything else, prioritize self-care, because if you're not in a healthy space and
that'd be mentally, physically, spiritually, you're not going to be ready for the work. And
�25
Brandon Chapman
so make sure that do what you need to do in order to be recharged to make sure that
you're in a great place to do the work. So I think those three. Anything else- don't be
afraid of change. I think, you know and I say that as I've made a move to a different city,
different jobs, so same career, but different job which is don't be afraid of change.
HCJ: Okay. So either with your last job or your current job, what is the most
memorable either project or experience what sticks out as memorable to you?
BC: The question I think I think the most memorable I have would be the night
that—I think it's November of 2017 Charleston approved the audit. And that was because
of the work that community members I did. And I think that's most memorable for me
because I think that when you had this work had started in the fall of 2016, if I'm getting
my years right. And so from 2016, and so then you had all these, you had, it was a fight.
And so seeing these community members, particularly black community members who
for so many, so many years and decades had seen police system of policing where it was
like, you know, cause you're a black person with a fancy car, or in my case, walking in
the street you'd be stopped just because you're black, to see this audit go through. That
was something that was a memorable for me. And then, I think that, you know in the
housing work that I did, there's not a specific point, but I think that, I always think about
that work because I worked with nine leaders from these different congregations. And we
had to sift through the stories that were told about the housing crisis identify the problem
and find a solution. And so, you know, and it was, it was an interesting thing because I
was working with Dr. Claire Curtis, who was my capstone professor for Poli Sci. And
then eight months later, well, I guess it would have been a year and a half later, we're
�26
Brandon Chapman
working on a committee together and she's like, stop calling me, doctor, call me Claire
now. So she is at the point where it was like, she was like, yeah, I'm not your professor
anymore. You just call me Claire. So, you know, working with leaders like that, and like
Claudette Hart for Morris Brown AME who was a coach here on this housing steering
committee and really getting to know them and just being in this fight with them together
was something that I'll keep with me as.
HCJ: Yeah, that's wonderful. So what keeps you busy these days, Brandon? Just
work?
BC: Yeah. Well, I will say that you know, DC, some things are opened up, but of
course we're still in the pandemic. And so I find myself, you know, my fiancée and I, like
I said, we moved here. We go on walks to explore the city a lot. I walk my dog a ton.
You know, we will go outside to a restaurant, just to be mindful of social distancing and
everything. And so it's been good to be able to, you know, DC being shut down and
traffic not being as bad as it would have been. I've been able to explore to state a little bit
more. And you know, for the most part, when the weekends, I Friday usually start off
around 5:30, six o'clock weekends. It's like, I wake up on Saturdays and Sundays now
where it's like, I, I get stuff done, but it's like, I don't necessarily have a specific plan.
Right. And so, you know, I get up and, you know, slowly get a cup of coffee and read and
do things like that. Yeah. That's what keeps me busy these days.
HCJ: Yeah. Well, what do you see in your future? Do you think you're always
going to do this kind of work?
�27
Brandon Chapman
BC: Yeah, I think so. I think that for me, I think every generation has, has you
know, Coretta Scott King and I'm paraphrasing here, but she, she basically said that every
generation has to buy different freedom. And I think that I'm reminded that, you know,
folks like Malcolm X and Dr. King were assassinated, and RFK was assassinated. And
you know, the systems they were fighting are the systems we’re fighting. And so I think I
will always in some way, shape, or form be a part of this work, whether that be me
organizing, whether that'd be me going to law school and fighting in the courts. I think I'll
always be in this fight in some way, shape, or form. And again, like I said, the job is, you
know, to organize or to get to the point where I don't need to do this, that we don't need to
do this. It'd be amazing. That'd be all right. We've eradicated racism and homophobia and
xenophobia and created a system in which people can live their life, regardless of who
they choose to love, regardless of their faith tradition, regardless of their skin color. And
they can actually just go have a hobby or go do things where it's like their job is whatever
brings them joy. That's not connected to fighting injustice. And so if that happens, I don't
know what I'd be doing, but maybe be like some kind of coffee taster or something like
that. You know, if we can eradicate these systems of injustices, you know, I go do
something else, but until that I'm going to be in a fight until we get to that point.
HCJ: Absolutely. Well, I think you've done wonderful work, and thank you for all
the work you've done. Do you have anything else you want to add?
BC: No. I think that thank you so much for reaching out to me. I think that you
know, Charleston is in a space where we can be, we can show what it looks like to not
only tell the truth, but to be about enacting the laws and policies that is connected to that
�28
Brandon Chapman
truth-telling and dealing with the vestiges of enslavement and creating a community in
which, you know capitalism doesn't put it to where we prioritize profits over people. And
so, you know, I think that the fight has to continue in Charleston, and it serves us no
purpose about our tone. We've got to tell the truth, we can be respectful, but I think
oftentimes the call for respect happens when you still tell them the truth. And I'm not
about that. I don't think, you know where I'm, where I'm at the organization I work for
isn't about that, and CAJM isn't about that as well.
HCJ: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. I'm going to turn off the recording now.
END OF INTERVIEW
Transcriber: Hannah Cowan Jones
Date: April 12, 2021
MLL 5/5/2021
�
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Oral Histories
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
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<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
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Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
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Publisher
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Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Hannah Cowan Jones
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Brandon Chapman
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina and Washington, DC via Zoom
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
55 minutes
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Title
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Oral History of Brandon Chapman, interviewed by Hannah Cowan Jones, 12 April 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Political participation--United States
Charleston Area Justice Ministry
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Brandon Chapman was born in Charleston, SC, in 1993. After graduating from the College of Charleston, he joined the Charleston Area Justice Ministry (CAJM) as an associate organizer in January 2017. He worked with the organization for three years, coordinating the demand for affordable housing in Charleston. In the interview, Chapman reflects on growing up in the Lowcountry, developing an interest in social justice, and the work and challenges involved in organizing and building people’s power in Charleston. He remembers the resistance CAJM faced when demanding a Charleston Police Department racial bias audit. Finally, he talks about his decision to move to Washington, DC and his job at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights.
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
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The Citadel Archives and Museum
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2021-04-12
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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English
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Charleston (S. C.)
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1653
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TRANSCRIPT – MARCUS MCDONALD
Interviewee: MARCUS MCDONALD
Interviewer: MILLS PENNEBAKER
Interview Date: April 17, 2021
Location: East Side, Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 2 hours, 18 seconds
MILLS PENNEBAKER: Okay. All right. So this is Mills Pennebaker. It's April?
MARCUS MCDONALD: Sixteenth? Or seventeenth?
MP: Sixteenth, it's Saturday, 2021. Just for the purposes of the recording, could you say
your name?
MM: My name is Marcus McDonald and I'm the leader of CHS BLM.
MP: Sweet. So we're not from Charleston. We both grew up in the Midlands. Do you
want to tell me just some background, like, what was your childhood like? Where'd you go to
school? Family, friends, who'd you run around with when you were a kid?
MM: I grew up in Columbia, near Five Points. So my--actually I was born in Silver
Springs, Maryland, but I only lived there for like a couple of months and then my family moved
down because my family, a lot of my family lived around Columbia. Originally we lived by my
granddad's house. My granddad was a big chef, served like Barack Obama, the Clintons, the
Bush--I think maybe Bush, I'm not sure. Just this really big, you know, caterer slash little country
cook out in Columbia and in Charleston, because that's where he's from, and he was actually the
first black manager for the Francis Marion. Yeah. So yeah, I lied to her. She was like put on me.
MP: Really! I didn't know that.
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Yeah, so he has a lot of history he put on me. Yeah. And he was mad into the civil
rights movement. So like a lot of that stuff passed down to me, so he's always proud of me and
shit. Anyways, yeah, so I grew up in Five Points, went to a like mixed race, I guess, elementary
school, like in a wealthier, neighborhood. But we had I guess pretty diverse school. And then I
went to my middle school was the one I was zoned for and it was one of the worst schools in the
country at one point, like maybe a couple of years before I went. It was like--I think it was like
number seventeen out of the bottom twenty-five, so I was like, "Okay, well, I guess I'm just
going to have to go to school," because like I said, I was zoned for it.
It was an all-Black schools, W.A. Perry. I went there--a lot of the friends who I went to
school with there, I still keep in touch with. But it gave--I feel like it helped my identity a lot,
because before it was like a more affluent elementary school. Then I went to the middle school,
it was like, you know, pretty much a hundred percent black kids. And, um, I don't know. I just
felt like I got--I was able to appreciate my identity there. Not like I didn't appreciate it, but I was
around my folks all the time, and these are the people I still keep tabs with. After that I went to
A.C. Flora, which was weird, because it was like in the affluent area, but they had kids from the
projects near my house who went there. So it was like really rich-ass kids and then fucking
people from like the--their neighborhood actually was on gangland. About like, I think 2012-they're like real motherfuckers, but anyways--and now they tore down.
MP: So just really different elementary, middle, high school.
MM: Yeah, exactly. Just like, I guess kind of like figuring it out. One of my best friends,
Naheem who I went to the same middle school with--I guess it's a supporting story, but anyways,
I guess it'll kind of get into--I wasn't really activated, but it was my first kind of negative
experience. It kinda shows you how I was when I was younger. One of my best friends, mind
�Marcus McDonald
you, we were outside the Waffle House, you know, the one in Five Points, and it was like when
it first came out. So we went there all the time.
MP: One of the best places.
MM: Yeah, exactly. My friend's grandma gave us some money to go out there so we
were walking, I guess we were waiting on one of our friends who went to the corner store and we
were waiting on him to come back. While we were waiting, we were just posted up on the
corner--I bet it was like five minutes--but like, I guess it was probably three police cars pulled up
on us and they're like, dah-dah-dah-dah, you know, ask for ID and stuff. And we were like, mind
you, I was like fourteen, fifteen, so I had my driver's permit. So I was like, "Yeah, I have a
permit, I'm only like fourteen." They searched us. They made us take off our shoes and stuff.
And they're like, "Yeah, y'all are from up there." We were like, "Yeah, we live up there." "Y'all
know where y'all from. Y'all wearing those colors." And I was like, "N----, this isn't even a Crip
neighborhood," but anyways, we were wearing blue. But I was like, well one, you criminalize
us--we're like thirteen, fourteen--and it didn't really like hit me then, but when I look back and I
was, "Damn," you know? They're like, "Oh, y'all are from there, like up there," because he saw
my dress. But that's how other people would just view the upbringing. So I don't know. But yeah,
so after that, living in Columbia and then I went to college. So that was kinda like childhood.
Childhood stories.
MP: Yeah. Yeah. Your grandfather though, was that your mom's side or dad's side?
MM: My mom's side.
MP: Your mom's side, that's what I thought. And he was from Charleston. So did you
have other family down here?
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Yeah, my auntie lives right by Burke, so on the Westside, and then I have some
family in like the Neck area that I don't see that often, but they're still up there. I have some
family out--my cousin lives out in the Goose Creek area. I got some families, you know,
sprinkled around there.
MP: That's nice. Is that part of what made you want to come to school at CofC?
MM: Yeah, but also it was like either this is or USC and I didn't really want to go to like.
MP: Where you grew up.
MM: Yeah. And I was like, "I'm going to come here." It was good because I at least knew
like if it came down to it, down to it, like my auntie's there. Anytime we came to Charleston,
that's where we'd always pull up. Yeah, yeah, I guess it was part of the decision. And I always
had love for Charleston, but I was never able to--it would always be like, you pull up for like a
weekend or a summer, a week or whatever, you know, I can never live, so it was good to be able
to once I got here. And that's why I stayed too, because I like being able to vibe here and the
family comes here a lot too because they like to visit my aunt. My grandma comes out here
because she grew up here--she lives in New York right now but she's like, you know, just pulls
up, catches the vibe.
MP: That's so nice--a little Lowcountry love.
MM: Yeah. I met one of my cousins, actually! I have a new cousin I didn't know who
lived here, but his name's Leon, he fixes houses. But yeah, I was outside my auntie's house
because I was taking her to get some groceries just like last week. But he was like, "Yeah, you
here for Patty?" I was like, "Yeah, that's my auntie," and he said, "Oh, I'm your cousin then! Hey,
how's it going? Nice to meet you!."
MP: "Hey new family!"
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Exactly. So the fam gets bigger.
MP: That's so cool. Let me think. I guess like a little bit about college too: what was it
like moving from Columbia, going to Charleston, and going to school at CofC? I mean, CofC is
like crazy, insane, all white people almost it feels like. So what was that like going from, I mean,
especially in middle school, when you're going to school with a lot of Black kids and then A.C.
Flora and then CofC?
MM: A.C. Flora--it was easy because I could still--I was able to have people who I was
able to meet, and I had my own circle. So in high school, I was kind of still reserved, chill, and
then I went to college and I was still pretty reserved, but I was--I mean, you know this story
because I met Charlie really randomly because the school just placed us in the same building.
We got to school early for something and I just met Charlie like first day and then we obviously
linked up. I remember this one time that I felt really anxious and just really aware of the
whiteness and just how white the school is. It was like the first couple of weeks and it was me,
Charlie, and our homie Donovan, who's Black, and I remember we pulled up to this party.
I don't know, but I just like caught a weird vibe and I dipped almost immediately.
Because it was a whole bunch of--they were looking at me weird. I was like, "Uh." And before, a
lot of times when people ask, "Who do you know?" You could always say, "Oh, I know dah-dahdah," and obviously like I didn't like to pay too much of mind of it because it's like, yeah, I don't
know anybody here, just trying to catch the vibe. But I had to hear--"All right, bro, like y'all
always just pull up on me," so I was like, waiting and waiting for it to happen and it didn't
happen but I could just catch that vibe. So then we just fucking dipped. And then I left and then
Charlie was like, "Oh, like we were just chilling. You catch a bad vibe?" I said, "Yeah, just
caught a bad vibe." I think Charlie didn't--he might not have felt it like that, I don't know what
�Marcus McDonald
Charlie thinks, but I just, I felt. I mean he came out, we linked up because he's my homie, but I
guess he didn't catch the vibe that I caught. That's when I was like, yeah, just different. In
Charleston I've seen Confederate flags, I've saw--some dude, I went to this frat house. One of my
old people who I used to be friends with. But he had like a chain, one of the beats was like
Confederate or whatever. And then his homie is in the other room and I don't know what he was
saying, but he used the hard r. I didn't say shit and I was waiting for him to come in the room so I
could say some shit but the dude I was talking to came in--is the recorder still going?
MP: Yeah--uh. Let me check really quick, sorry. I don't know how to do this thing. Oh
yes, it's going. Alright, sorry. Technology is like--I'm so sorry for interrupting you.
MM: That's all good. I feel like the app might be easier. I just recorded a conversation the
other day. Anyways, uh.
MP: You were in this room with this guy.
MM: Yeah, and I didn't say shit but then he pulled up and he was like, "Oh, like I'm
sorry." I was like, "Hey, don't apologize to me bro because you're going to say it again when I'm
not here," and I just like left it at that. I was like, "I don't have shit to say to you." I handled my
business then I dipped. But just shit like that. And that's why we didn't join the frats. We had a
couple of different--like Tanner was a homie, couple different frat boys that we fucked with, but
it was like, I'm not about to join this all-white frat just to be like your token dude. You know
what I mean? Like I'm not here for that. I'm not here to like prove that y'all aren't racist. I'm not
going to be your whatever.
That's why we just kept our squad and you know, we have like a diverse squad. But it's
like we didn't have to join the frats, get in that scene. I kind of look back and I wish I had gotten
more into the Black frat scene and did more like that, or like BSU and stuff, but at the end of the
�Marcus McDonald
day, my experiences are my experiences. Moral of the story is I kinda like created my own space,
I feel like, and my own friend group and moved in that way. I think they did a good job of--I
took a lot of classes at the Avery Research Center. I think they make those types of classes
available. They could've definitely done better to make Black people feel more welcome. That's
something that they've been, I don't know what the fuck--they keep trying and I think they're
making strides, but I don't know. I honestly haven't kept up with it like that.
MP: I think it was definitely harder under the last president of CofC.
MM: Oh yeah, being a fucking racist.
MP: Yeah, like owning a Confederate flag store or whatever. It will be interesting to see
where they're going to go in the future.
MM: Yeah, President Hsu. I think he's going to do some good stuff.
MP: Yeah. He seems like a cool person.
MM: Yeah, no, I've seen him before. I think--I don't know if I dapped him up when I saw
him, but I've been in the same room with him before. I wanted him to speak one of our events,
like back before the pandemic, like right when I was like starting to pop up, trying to plan shit
for the for the summer before we knew the summer was going to be canceled. Yeah, I asked him
to speak and he's like, "Yeah, I'm down with it." Maybe I'll follow up now that--yeah, it'll be a
different topic. But I can--ooh, I'll see if he's down to get into--I didn't even think about this. We
were trying to an Afro-Asian, and we're still down to do it, food drive or something with the
H&L Market. I gotta do it before somebody takes my fucking idea because this shit always
happens. Because I said it, I just mentioned it--that shit has happened to me so many times that I
get pissed off. I shouldn't have even said it.
MP: (crosstalk, inaudible)
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Yeah, exactly. But I at least want people to get interested if they want to know
about it. So it's like a balance, but yeah, I got to act on soon. I always say I've got to act on it
soon. I left it, not on the back burner, but it's like on the long to do list of all the shit we've got to
do.
MP: Yes, I mean, you're doing so much all the time. I feel like you're like constantly
going, going, going. Before we get into what you're doing right now, let's talk a little bit, just a
little bit about what you did after college. You were working, you had your entertainment--are
you still doing Adesso?
MM: Yeah, I'm still doing it, it's still an LLC. We just haven't been getting many funds.
MP: It's also pandemic.
MP: Yeah, pandemic, but we're going to come out with some shirts for like a summer
collection or something, just t-shirts and like some shorts, something simple. So that's in the
works, but yeah. So after college, like literally right after graduation--right around the end of
college, like spring slash winter, I had started doing art shows at my house with some homies
like my homie, Jonathan Garcia, just a couple of different people who I just like being in
community with. I remember our first show at Selective Hype, it was like this street wear store,
and it popped off and that was like the catalyst. We had another show at Mynt next, that popped
up, it was on the paper.
The cops were--and that was another pinpoint of the anti-Blackness in Charleston. We
had our first hip hop show at Mynt and it was like, the police were alerted and dah-dah-dah, I
was like, "Bro!" There was an incidence obviously when the show happened, but it's like going
into it, that was already the expectation. And that was, you know, consistent. It was hard for us to
get shows, hip hop shows like all the time. I had to maneuver and I had to get different artists. I
�Marcus McDonald
had to even work with a country band--I fucking hate country. They ended up skeezing me over
and so I hate working with country artists now. But anyways, yeah, I had to work with different
artists. After graduating, I did that and I also had a steady finance, like nine to five job, doing
commodity trading. So that was pretty much what I did for a year or two after graduation. Yeah,
I just was consistent with that. I mean, it was tough, juggling both, but I mean I just figured it
out. I always like to get my creativity out and I knew if I just did Adesso, I wouldn't be able to
make enough money, and I knew if I just did commodity trading and I'd be bored as fuck.
It was hitting like a peak, like right before the pandemic. I got really in the weeds with
commodity trading and I was also on tour with Clay and it was that point and another point
before, but I just really hit a wall. I was going through a lot of stuff with commodity trading and I
was literally on the road driving up by myself to New York and I was at a Starbucks and I
remember--I don't know what was going on, but there was this report that I had to send, it was
Friday, and I was really just like, "Damn. I can't do this shit." And for some reason the Starburst
Wi-Fi was fucked up for some reason. I always think about that, but I feel like the whole
Starbucks went gray. It just felt like everything around was like, "This shit fucking sucks." But
it's wild because I was on the way to New York and I was excited for the show, but at same time
I'm so angry and depressed about this job. So that's what I was saying, like when I quit my shit, I
was like, "Ugh! Get out of my life."
MP: And the world's back in color again.
MP: Yeah, exactly. But I didn't get that catalyst for that until after the initial BLM
protest. But that's pretty much what I did a year after, just balancing that. I had a girlfriend who I
still talk to every now and again. She's like really active and she's marched with us a few times,
more than a few times, almost most of the time. She does a lot of--I feel like she like--not
�Marcus McDonald
activated me cause I was already active and doing shit. I fuck with her a lot because I feel like I
was able to bounce a lot of the political stuff. And some people aren't about talking about that
shit, but you know, when you have that person, who is on those type of issues, like I fuck with
that. So we always had that and we still do sometimes, have deep conversations about what's
going on, and education especially because she's a special ed teacher. That was pretty much the
year after college. I guess trying to figure out that. Got a car. Trying to be an adult, it's fucking
hard dude.
MP: Still working on it, me too.
MM: Fucking hard as hell. But I figured it out.
MP: Yeah! I mean, you're substitute teaching right now at Burke, which is fantastic. It
seems like that--that seems like a really rewarding nine to five.
MM: Yeah. That's nice and I it's something I realized that it--what's the word. It's
something I learned in one of my finance classes, I forgot what it's called, but it's what you get
from something--and I'll think of the word, I'll think of it like when I'm at home alone. But it's
like what you give some sort of--it could be money, it could be--like your reward for like doing
it. When I went to college and being a finance major, you learn about so much money. You're
like, "Oh yeah. I want to get out of school and make a hundred thousand dollars a year,
whatever." And then you get a job that has high prospects, high growth, you know, you think,
you'll put a lot of work in, get a lot of reward out of it. And then it's like, you get there and you're
in that position. And then you're like, "Damn. I'm working my ass off and still, even though I'm
working more than the person who's making a lot more than me in the company--" But it was
just like, I realized how much more happy, like my happiness is worth way more than a ton of
money. And you have balance: you can be happy and making a shit ton of money, it just depends
�Marcus McDonald
on the career for you and who you're working with, and that's what I realized. I'm happy just
teaching the kids and stuff. And I feel like that type of rewarding feeling, I don't know, it just
can't be replaced with shit. Yeah, exactly. I get out of there and I'm like happy. Thinking about
back when I was commodity trading, you know, get home, just like, "Yo, fuck this shit."
MP: It's like a good tired instead of a tired.
MM: Yeah, I get to work with some kids, you get to play for a little bit, you know, like
that's cool. Like doing some small things, and like, yeah, it's a different type of tired. And I'm
honestly like not even that tired, I'm usually monitoring the kids and stuff, but I mostly doing
activist work on my computer. I don't really have to teach them, teach them, make sure they're
doing the work. So I can read a book or like--I was talking to this one dude about coalition
reform out in North Charleston and it was a pretty important call, but he was one of my mentors,
so it was cool. But I was on the phone with him and one of the kids was like, "Dah-dah-dah. Shut
the fuck up!" And I was like, "All right, I'm going to have to call you back," hung the phone up,
and that's how they knew shit was real Like, "You're going to make this man hang his phone-you were having an important conversation!" I was like, "Yeah, I was!" Anyways, I say all of
that to say, you know, I like it. I always get mistaken for a kid there, which pisses me off.
Literally happened last time yesterday, like it was like two girls, "Are you a student or a
teacher?" I was like, "I'm a teacher." And I'll overdress to make it more known. Like I swear I'm
a teacher!
MP: Yeah, like how much more.
MP: Have to wear my badge and all that. One time I was like locked out and I was
knocking on the door and it was like, "Students have to go around." I was like, "Look at the
badge!"
�Marcus McDonald
MP: I started dying my hair gray because people at work were giving me grief for
looking so young. And I was like, "Well, if I have gray hair, maybe--"
MM: Yeah. It's not working?
MP: It's not working!
MM: It's like, "Oh, she just switched her shit."
MP: Yeah! I guess let's talk a little bit about how you, quote, unquote, formally got into
activism, how you really started organizing in earnest, I guess last summer? So what kind of, I
mean, you were having discussions, you were activated, you were aware, you were recognizing
all of these things that were happening in Charleston and nationally and internationally. I mean,
the world kind of collectively went to shit last summer, but is that, is that the catalyst, is that
really what got you going for the new chapter of Black Lives Matter Charleston or?
MM: I think what hit me the most, and I always look back at it and I think about it, I'm
glad I was able to go visit and march with the family. But the Ahmaud Arbery shooting is the
one that hit me a lot. And that's when I was like, "Damn." That was like the closest thing to a
lynching. It was like a modern day lynching, but it was like, it was wild. And especially them
being ex-police officers and then the cover-up behind it. I went out to the--I'm not going to get
too deep into the story, but we marched with the family just in solidarity and it was wild, dude.
Because it was the road where he got killed on so it was like that trauma, like seeing that video.
But anyways, so that was still like spring, like March, April, when that was released, maybe in
February. So that released, I was like, "Damn, bro." So I did a lot of research and from there-like that was more the catalyst and then obviously once the George Floyd video came out, that's
when I was like, "All right, I have to do some shit."
�Marcus McDonald
I looked up and did some research on Charleston Black Lives Matter, the one was formed
by Muhiyidin [D’Baha]. I saw the Facebook and they hadn't posted anything since like 2017. I
was like, you know, whatever, whatever, this is obviously not active, like with what's going on.
And I was like, "Well, fuck it. Somebody has to do this shit." I knew once that video came out,
like it was everywhere. People are gonna--this week is going to be insane. So I was like, we have
to--somebody has to stand up and do this shit. So that's what I did. I talked to Mika [Tamika
Gadsden] about it. I was thinking about conversations because me and Mika haven't always been
on good terms, but she was like, "Marcus, there wasn't--like you're right, there wasn't an active
chapter and you stood up and did this shit." The person that I was critiquing was up from the old
chapter, I told her the same thing. I was like, "Y'all didn't post anything since 2017," and I'm not
going to get too deep in our conversation, but she was like, "We did all this and like you're coopting it," and it's like, bro, y'all haven't done anything in three years or four years. It's not coopting, it's just somebody has to push that lever. And I did what I had to do and it's like, nobody's
stopping y'all if y'all want to--we're still in community, but it's just like, whatever.
Anyways, what was I saying with that? But yeah, so I mean, as far as like how I formally
got into it, I don't remember what day of the week it was, but I think it was like the day--so I
watched the video of George Floyd, and the thing is either that day or the day after I started the
page and I think our first post it was George Floyd with his fist up. Posted that, we just got a
whole bunch of followers started coming in. I was like, well, I'm going to have this page just so
people know what's going on. The initial protest happened. I think it was that Saturday one, and
then shit popped off, and like I said, this shit was like in real time. Seeing this shit was fucking
insane, dude. There was some, not any of our people, but there's some people who we are friends
with who were out there and there was--we saw shit on Instagram live. Like shit was insane,
�Marcus McDonald
dude. Like fucking tear gas everywhere, just people, mobs of people. I don't even want to say
mobs--just normal people out there. But it's like, people were out there, out there, like on their
shit. It was wild looking back after, you know, when the news came out. And the thing about it
too, I was scared for a lot of reasons, one, because I know how the South is and two--all right, so
that was Saturday, and Sunday we were having another protest because we had daily ones. So the
Sunday after, we had a protest at Marion Square and that's the one that popped off and that's the
one [inaudible] was at and it popped off in a different way and the police fought, hit back. They
had rubber bullets, tear gas, all that shit. Like I said, I had started the page and we'd already
gotten, I think 3,000 followers. My page was blowing up.
And that was the first one that I like really organized. Saturday one was just like selforganized by people just being there and knowing what's up. Then, like I said, Sunday was the
first one we really organized. So Sunday, they hit back, got tear gassed, and I still have PTSD. I
got tear gassed right by the corner of St. Philip and Coming Streets. And it was wild because
like, we went to college there and I always thought of that as a safe place. I don't think of that
area as safe anymore. I can never look at that one stretch between that space and Addlestone, it's
just different to me now. See what happened was near the end of it, they had already shot a lot of
us and made us move and march around, but they were coming down St. Phillip at this point. It
was like this big tank and I guess we all collected around there and he was telling us to move and
we just like stood steady like, no, we're not moving because this is like our last day because like
they had already fucked a lot of us up. And a lot of people kind of dispersed. We were like, no,
we're holding it down here. They had stopped us from moving up because they had us kind of
trapped. Everybody was like right here, kind of in the back.
�Marcus McDonald
I remember this clear as day, he played the "Bad Boys" song like "Bad boys, bad boys," I
shit you not. And then they tear gassed us at maybe the end of the song. The tear gas came from
close to Marion Square, but the wind was blowing towards this way, but my car was right in that
little area, like on the side. So I was like, all right, boom, ran--I wasn't with anybody, but I told
everybody, "All right, I'm going to go. I hope everybody stays safe," get to my car and I'm like,
fumbling my keys and I opened my car, put my trombone in there, and then--I don't know. I
guess as soon as I'm like getting in, the tear gas slid in car and got into my car and I was like,
"Fuck." My whole face was like, literally can't see shit. And I was like, bro, what fuck the is this?
But I was like, I need to go because like the tank is like right there, literally on the corner, like on
that intersection and my car is right there. So I'm like, I have to dip. I'm like pretty much blind
driving, and mind you the road's clear because like they have everything blocked off, so I'm
driving blindly as fucking through this intersection. I stopped at the stoplight and I'm like, bro, I
cannot drive any more, but I have some water on me so I get out of my car. The stoplight's going
but there's cars driving by and I get out my car, pour water over my face. And I can imagine
people who--I don't think people were in the library at that time, but the people who were just
driving by like, "What the fuck is going on?" Like there's tear gas, this guy's pouring water down
his face outside his car. Yeah. It's like, what the fuck is going on? I guess it just goes in like our
first initial protest.
And then there was a lot of initial knee-jerk people not fucking with us from the old BLM
chapter. They're like, "Who the fuck is this?" And then, you know, we talked, we had some hard
conversations. Obviously from the death of Muhiyidin, it was like very people who took this shit
personally. I mean, as they should. There's like, you know, who the fuck is this type of thing. I
talked to Latisha [Imara], she was the first person who I reached out to, and there was initially
�Marcus McDonald
some static. And then I think I just stood up to her one time, I was like, "I'm not gonna let y'all
talk to her--" she was talking to somebody on the team, like all up and down. And I was like,
"Nah, I'm not about to let you just talk to her like that. If you need to talk, talk to me, we can
talk, but it's like, don't talk to her anymore. We can talk between us." Like I said, initially a lot of
static, but I literally was talking to her yesterday and I'm like a little brother to her now. We're
tight now. We have such a good relationship; I met her kids actually. But that was the initial
static, but she's the one who embraced me first and she was a big co-organizer with Muhiyidin.
Some of the original organizers who organized with Cody and even Carter [?] who is still with us
now, and this dude in--not even mentioning him, we don't associate with him now but he was
associated with Muhiyidin. It took a minute for everybody to really like, "Oh yeah. Like y'all are
the official chapter," it took a minute and it just took us doing and being out there, the work has
to speak for itself.
And that's kind of what we did initially and, you know, looking back on it and this is a
criticism I have with one organization in particular, I'm not going mention their name, but you
know who they are--and they are a Black-led organization and they do a lot of good work. Even
on the East Side, I think they're doing a food drive right now, actually. What time is it? Eleven,
yeah they're doing a food drive right now. Their whole idea of it is they formed and then they
took six months, or I think four months to like plan out their ideology and political building. And
I think that's important, but they didn't do pretty much any work really in the community other
than I think one of them volunteered for one of our Thanksgiving things, but wasn't really like
too deep in doing a lot of--they did like some stuff. And they said they purposely like kind of
stood away just because they wanted to get their political ideology down. And I was like, I think
that's so dope. But at the same time people are starving and people need help now.
�Marcus McDonald
We were doing a whole bunch of mutual aid events and we didn't get that much help. We
told everybody about it. Didn't get much help. And then I guess within the next like four or five
months, recently within the last four months, five months, they've been doing it and they've been
criticizing me. I think the person who I said gave me a real big critique, she was like, "What do
y'all do?" And she said she purposefully doesn't follow me, follow the page, but I was like, if you
don't know--and I explained to her what we do. I was like, "We do so fucking much, dude. We've
been doing a lot of this shit that y'all are just starting to do," but I'm not going to go too deep into
that. But like I said, the work spoke for itself.
And as far as like me being the leader, that's a whole story in itself. It's a short story, not
going to drag it out too long. So I started the page and gave everybody ownership, anybody who
wanted to do their thing. I guess it was like summertime, like around July 4th and there was a
vote--it was before July 4th, but it was a vote. It was like, should Marcus be leader or president.
And the vote was should Marcus be president, should somebody else be it, or no president at all.
I think me being president got the least amount of votes. Somebody else was like second place
for least. And then the majority was like, we shouldn't have a leader. I was like, okay, that's cool.
I mean, I guess that's the vote, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to like--it's a group.
So I was like, all right, boom.
So I just like did a whole bunch of work and I made connections on the East Side, made
connections in Mount Pleasant. At this point, I want to get more out of North Charleston, more
connected there, but we have connections in like most of the--even in Goose Creek,
Summerville, just like broadening that network. And obviously there's so many places we
haven't--like the Bend, we miss out on that a lot. It was a lot of just me being out there and doing
that community building and stuff and bringing stuff to the group, like, "Hey, this is happening,"
�Marcus McDonald
or "Hey, you know, this is going on." And I had just like naturally became the leader and that's
kind of just how it happened. I put in a shit ton of work. I was like, thinking about that,
sometimes you have to work. And there's a cheesy quote that everybody says, it's like, "Work
like a soldier so it's hard to find the captain," or something like that. So that's what I've been
doing and I still do that, like boots on the ground. That's kind of how I got started out and, you
know, got everything officiated. Stuff is still in the mix because we're still not at a certified
nonprofit because you want to be the nonprofit where you can do political endorsements. Think
it's a 501, it's not a C--but anyways, I should probably know this. We have a lawyer on the team
who's helping us out with it. And that's new, just team building.
That's another thing too. Like the turnover, dude, with leftist organizations, just volunteer
organizations in general, grassroots. It's so hard because we're not able to pay anybody really,
unless it's maybe a food thing, but most of the times it's like all volunteer work. I know it's just
tough because like I said, it's like getting people to like coalesce around something. You
continuously do it. It's like one, it's sometimes traumatic. Like people are trying to do their own-have joyful days and peaceful days, and its lots of talking about real shit, serious shit. It's tough.
And also too, there's some people who want to do stuff, but they don't like, we had this real
leftist dude who was about it and he just dropped recently. His criticism was wild because--it's
been learning lessons, just being a leader and having to deal with that type of stuff. But he was
like, "Yeah, I don't think the stuff y'all are doing. Like, it's good, but I could be doing more stuff
in my community." And I was like, "Dude, like I'm at a food drive as we speak right now," or I
had one the next day, "You can pull up and we can talk about it there." And he had COVID for
like two weeks so this was like maybe three weeks after he initially told me he had COVID and
he was like, "You know, we're not doing it." I was like, "Bro, you had COVID for two weeks,
�Marcus McDonald
dude. Like I was letting you quarantine and do your thing and that's why I didn't invite you to
some of the stuff we do." So mind you, he got COVID and he joined maybe like two weeks
before so that was his experience with the group, half of it he had COVID. I was like, I don't
know. And then there's some stuff where he did make some good points for us, but I was like, I
can't have--and he understood that he didn't want to be in the community with COVID
obviously.
But it's been like learning how to be a leader, learning how to just roll with the punches,
and Latonya [Gamble]'s told me this: sometimes you got to step by yourself. Like you're going to
be by yourself a lot of times. Latonya has just been a real big mentor to me. I have so much love
for that lady because she has real-ass talks with me and she's just such a G. That's something I
really take from her. She's definitely just always said this and she drops a gem on me sometimes.
And sometimes she has stepped by herself and that's how it is sometimes. Sometimes you gotta
be that initial person, like, all right, I'm going to do this shit. And I'm a real let's do this shit type
of person. I feel like I've been going to draw, but the last recent time I was like, "All right, let's
do this shit," and it turned out well, we had this coalition that I was just talking about. I was on a
call with Paula in North Charleston in regards to the North Charleston Racial Bias Audit and we
had the two listening sessions, and it was actually the girl who was critiquing me, it was on the
second listening session. She was like real active, vocal, she was like this needs to be done, this
needs to be done, but there's no like real organizing behind it. While she was doing that, I was
sliding into people's Zoom direct messages, like, "Yo, we're having a follow-up meeting next
week, like let's link up. Boom, boom, boom." I got a good list of maybe ten, ended up being like
twenty people who showed up to the meeting--like powerful: NAACP, ACLU, CAJM, North
Charleston community leaders. It was one of those moments where I was like, "All right, we
�Marcus McDonald
have this meeting with the CNA, let's talk about making like a community coalition around this
to continue this work," and it took a minute for that to happen. But it was like one of those
moments I felt like sharing. It's kind of like my whole idea, sometimes like you wait patiently for
some things, but sometimes you just have to do this shit. That's the type of person I am and kind
of like how I started being alone. Sometimes you gotta step.
MP: It seems like from what you're saying, there's a lot of talk about talk.
MM: Yeah.
MP: In the local, in the different groups that are in the communities here. I didn't realize
the extent that the tensions like between and even in the groups, just like how it can get, like you
said, staticky.
MM: Yeah. And there's always something going on. That's been the stuff that like
directly affects me. There's been static in other stuff that I've had to stay out of because it doesn't
have to do with me, you know. So I stay out of it, I'm on neutral terms with a lot of folks and on
like less than neutral terms with some folks, but I try to keep it G. Like at the end of the day, I'm
gonna continue the work. And that's how I feel like me and Latonya are similar in that way, the
work's just got to keep going, no matter what happens. If I don't do the work, you know, it's just
not gonna get done.
MP: So, you work with ECDC [Eastside Community Development Corporation] often,
you're there a lot. Um, are you there as Marcus or are you there as Marcus, the leader of BLM?
MM: I'm there as both. So they'll introduce me as that and they'll be like, "Oh yeah,
Marcus leads the local chapter." And I think she does that on purpose to people I know and I
think that honestly helps my street cred some. Because people fuck with the idea of Black Lives
�Marcus McDonald
Matter but they don't know about the local organizations and a lot of times they'll have the sign
in their front door, but don't really know who the fuck I am, or have a shirt on.
MP: Like, "Oh, that's me."
MM: Yeah and I'm not the movement, but at the same time--and a lot of the times too,
people will donate to the national organization, but they'll be from Charleston. It's like, just
donate to us, dude. Like, you know what I mean? Like that's just never going to funnel down. I
mean, maybe, they do grants now, so it might, but at the same time, it normally doesn't. That
local stuff is important. So to answer your question, I'm there in both ways, like all the kids know
me as CHS BLM Marcus and they rock with me, and they're like, "Yo, what do you do?" And
I'm like, "I'm an activist." So they see me as kind of both. I'm not always--I don't get to
everybody because a lot of people know what the fuck's going on already. So it's like, I don't
have to educate you on this shit. Because most of the time, people just come there and need help
for something like, "I need to sign up for unemployment," or like do this, sign up for this
program or sign this job application, check the resume or something. So I'm in that role there.
We do our programs; we did the Black history event at St. Julian Devine with them.
We're trying to do another one, I want it to be like Kings and Queens theme for Africa Day,
which is on the 25th, which unfortunately is the anniversary of George Floyd's murder. But
excuse me, we're trying to send maybe the weekend before and then have Africa, like type of
week style thing. And then we'll probably have a have a vigil for the 25th and then they're trying
to have an anniversary of the uprisings or something. Yeah, I don't know where I was going with
that. Just like, I'm in that role, I like push the Afrocentric vibe. Latonya will say stuff like, "I
don't want it to sound racist," and I'm like "Nah! You saying what it is," and I'm the one, I'm not
afraid to say like, "This shit is racist." She'll say stuff like, "I don't mean racist," when it's like
�Marcus McDonald
Afrocentric and like, "No, no, Latonya, it's not racist. It's about us." We, we have a lot of like
philosophical talks and like I said, I consider her one of my mentors and I look up to her a lot.
Yeah, I play different roles, you know, we just talk a lot and I use our resources to just bring
money there to the center. And that's another thing that I was like, "Shaggy?" Like when--it's
funny, I'm wearing the shirt--when...ah, I'm not gonna say names, but when the critiquer was
saying about like, "What do y'all do?" They do a lot of work at our center. Like they do a food
drive, I linked them up with Latonya so they could the food drive there. It's like, "What do you
do?" It's like that center where y'all do the food drives, I helped put money in that. We pretty
much went halfsies, not halfsies, but like, we probably put at least like 5,000 to 10,000 dollars
into the ECDS's pockets for them to construct it and do the paint. It looks amazing in there, and
I'll show you the before and after, but it's like, it's literally like night and day, dude. And it's likeMP: It was--yeah, when I was in there the other day, I was like, this is such a comforting
place. Like the computers look amazing, too. And it's like all those little alcoves. Y'all did a great
job.
MM: Yeah, thank you. It was a lot of efforts between a lot of people, we worked on
together and they started the GoFundMe and we shared it and made another whole poster for it.
And you know, like I said, really just like popped it off, and then for her--and when she said that
I was like, "Bro, you just don't know, I guess because you haven't followed up. We do the work."
It's stuff like that that's really like stamped us, people know about our work before anything. And
I've had to fire some real comebacks with some people who are on Instagram and Facebook who
will be like, "BLM does this. Why don't they help the kids?" Donate to our learning center
motherfucker, let's go. "Oh, well, y'all focus on this problem. What about economic
�Marcus McDonald
empowerment?" Donate to our Black power financial literacy center. Unless you don't know
about it, like shut the fuck up. So I've been able to really shut some people down. It's like in a
respectful way. If you want to help, there's things to do. If you think gang violence is bad, we
have Guns Down Chucktown up in North Charleston. We do a lot of work with them too. We
agree that it's a problem, but it's like, what the fuck are you going to do about it? And I forgot a
lot of times they will blame BLM in general, about a lot of societal shit. It's like, we are in the
same situation with you, like we are Black people and still face this shit. Don't come at us.
Especially too with like the financial shit, especially recently. Patrisse Cullors has been
under accusations for shit and it's like, y'all don't get mad at Bill Gates and all these other
vulture, nonprofit motherfuckers because they're white, and it seems like white people would
deserve to have all these nice houses. They don't really--I don't want people sharing stories like
that. They don't think that that's what they're saying, but that's what they're saying is, "Oh, she
doesn't deserve to have a nice house," and like that's what you're saying. I understand some of
the critiques are saying at the end of the day, like they don't have that same smoke for like Bill
Gates or any other rich white person who does nonprofit work or does this that and the other, but
we'll have all this smoke for Black organizations or somebody who is trying to do something. So
I've had to deal with that even locally, people trying to come blow smoke at us. And that's just
like, dude, like we're doing our best, the best we can do with our capacity. Like if you want to
help, the doors are open, doors, church are open, but if you're not--we have stuff to do. So I'll
talk to you later.
MP: Will you talk a little more about the Black Power Financial Literacy Class? Did you,
was that like kind of inspired by all your financial--?
�Marcus McDonald
MM: It definitely was. I don't know if I told you about that or--yeah, you know about
this. Because I think this is when I went to--I think I was at Corinne when this happened. I went
to Ghana for my study abroad trip and we learned a lot about micro-finance there and about
financial literacy, and they have programs there and just learning about all the issues, like as far
as like credit discrimination. We learned about a lot of that stuff in Africa and that happens here,
like redlining and all that shit in a racist way. And there, like the funds aren't there and the banks
just like, they wouldn't give loans to anybody. Yeah, it's different there, but I learned a lot about
the parallels and stuff from here. I was in the micro finance club in school. So that was our whole
thing, just like learning about that and learning about how to help people and like nonprofit work
and stuff like that, about budgeting, how to teach people about this. I mean, yeah, to answer your
question. Yeah. It was inspired by my finance background and like I said, that's one about our
three tenants or goals: economic empowerment, education reform--not only curriculum-wise, but
like youth programs and stuff--and then criminal justice reform and abolition are our main
tenants. At least in my head, if we can continue to do stuff around those three points, we're
winning. Like if we can be advocates on the criminal justice side, like, boom, if I continue the
Black Power Financial Literacy Center and advocate for economic empowerment, that's great.
Then the learning center, just to continue doing stuff like that, it's the trifecta, at least in activism
for me. The national ideologies kind of revolve around that too. So like we've looked at their
mission statements and you know, like I said, we're an independent chapter but we follow almost
all the BLM chapters in the United States or all of them that at least have an Instagram. So we try
at least, you know, keeping tabs with what's going on.
MP: Do you work closely with any other chapters?
�Marcus McDonald
MM: No, I mean, I'll just shout them out sometimes. The New York state one, we share a
lot of stuff, back and forth DM them sometimes. But yea, not really. Sometimes there's some
organizers in Georgia who we rock with, some Charlotte ones, some folks from Virginia, weirdly
enough, but yeah, it just depends. We haven't--because everybody's so deep in--there's always
shit going on in your own community. So sometimes like it's hard enough to be like, "All right,
what did y'all want to do?" But sometimes I will reach out and be like, "Y'all doing this program,
this is dope. How can we replicate that?" Or I hit people up in New York a lot. [inaudible] I
gauge what they're doing, kind of get people's take. All right, so y'all did this. How can we get
that shit here? Even though it's impossible. Maybe we can do the steps. Because a lot of times
they've done shit like ten years ago and we haven't even done this shit, so it's like, "What did y'all
do five years ago? Maybe we can do that shit," because we're so fucking backwards. So there's
some community but, like I said, people do their own thing.
MP: You mentioned that you've done some coalition-y stuff: CAJM, NAACP, ACLU.
But do you do, as the work you do for Black Lives Matter, is it mostly just Black Lives Matter or
are you close with other local community groups here too?
MM: I don't know, I mean, I don't know if I'm understanding your question that well. So,
I do work with the coalitions, there's a lot of different--there's not too many, I guess there cannot
be too many, but there are a lot of different coalitions. Like there is United Front. There is the
public safety coalition with Lowcountry Action Committee, ACLU, and all of them. Then there's
CGCC which I'm on, which is more like--what's the word--less leftist, more liberal. Like the
police, the sheriff's on it, the solicitor's on it, that type of thing. So it's like real bureaucratic type
thing and it's a city program. To answer your question, I do a lot of work just as a representative
of CHS BLM for the coalitions. So it's like, it'd be mostly like that. As far as the work I do it's
�Marcus McDonald
kind of like what we decide. At the end of the day, most times we'll push the needle on it,
sometimes people bring stuff to my team, "Well, yeah, maybe we should do something like that,"
but as far as like what we do--well, one, it depends on what's going on, but you know, it was
kind of like what we start to like put our toes in, you know, step to.
MP: You've also gone to the State House. Once? Twice? Couple of times?
MM: I've pulled up twice. I need to pull up again, I need to figure out when the next
meeting is, but yeah, there was a law enforcement reform meeting there and I had to pull up
because I was like--I pulled up to the one before and there was like two before. There was one
about prison and bail reform and then there was another one about law enforcement. So I went to
the first one and saw someone we rock with who is like an inmate advocate, and then because the
jail system in South Carolina is so fucked up, but was I going with this? So yeah, went there for
that. And then they had the second meeting, the law enforcement, like I said, and it was just
bullshit. It was like all like law enforcement officials who were pretty much patting themselves
on the back and the politicians were saying, "Yes, we'll give you more money for all this
training," that doesn't fucking work and little body cameras they can turn off whenever they
want. So yeah, I listened to the whole thing. It was like maybe a three hour meeting and I was
like, bro, I'm gonna have to say some shit at the end. So I was hoping to be--it wasn't on the
agenda about public comments, but I was like, I have to say some shit. I literally got up and I
was like, "Dah-dah-dah, the--" I don't know what the percentage is, but I think it's out of all the
police agencies in the state, I want to say it's like 36--oh, I'd have to get a number. I think it's
like, oh man, I'm forgetting the exact percentage, but it's around like 36 percent. All right, I'm not
going to say that. It's like 75 out of 370--fuck it, I'm not going to get the right number, but yeah,
it's around 35 percent. It's a bad number, it's like under 60, it's a fucked-up number. But of police
�Marcus McDonald
departments in this state are certified by anything. Like there's like only 26 percent that are
certified, that have their state certification. Isn't that wild?
MP: What does that mean though? They just do-MM: Yeah, they just have their whatever law--not even state certified. And they could
just be a police force. And the state will pay for this shit too. I don't even think it's that much to
pay for somebody to like implement it or whatever, but it's like, you just have to do it pretty
much. And it's under 60 percent. It's like at least like 35 to 40 percent. And that's why I stood up.
I was like, "That's a shame, dude. Like y'all sitting here thinking that's cool. Like what the fuck?"
So I pretty much said that in less layman's terms--well, I was trying to say that and they were
pretty much like, "No, like there's no public comment thing. If we let you speak, we have to let
everybody speak." And I was like, "Fuck this, I'm going to say one last thing," and I said,
"Statewide mandatory racial bias audit. And that's it," and I left. They cut off the mic and
everything, didn't let me speak. So I left and then I was sitting outside and one of the--I think it's
Thigpen, Representative Thigpen is his name. He came outside and said, "Yeah, bro, want to
hear you speak but," and he didn't say it in like a dismissive way, but he was like, "Yeah, show
up to the next one. I'm glad, you know, we need young people like you out here on this shit." So
I was like, boom, come here next time. Went there next time, they let me speak and I gave them
my statements. I think I did a really good speech. I want to go back and listen to it because I feel
like--there was some parts where I stepped up on or skipped up on, but I remember I was talking
to somebody after and she was like, "Yeah, like I was snapping it back. You were going in." And
I was like, "Thank you."
I remember one point, I made the illusion or metaphor, because this is the bad apples
thing. I was like, "For bad apples, the form, you have to give them an environment to form,
�Marcus McDonald
there's pathogens. If they're an outsider and get bad pathogens and if they're inside, yada-yadayada. You can't just say they're a bad apple and let those exist. You have to make sure that the
environment is--you have to be surgical about it." And that's where I was like, with the racial
bias audit, that's a way we can be surgical and know what's going on and know what pathogens
exist in the environment. Then a lot of people were saying--people didn't clap, but it was like,
"That was some shit you were saying. That was one of the high points, you're a real one for that."
So I went up there for those times. Another wild takeaway is the meeting where I got shut down,
when they were like, there's no comments, somebody from CGCC, I was talking with them--and
this is before I became a community representative... I started my racial bias audits in the talk
with them and they were like, "Oh yeah, like I was listening to a state house meeting and there
was somebody in the meeting, he was saying something about--" And I was like, "That was me!
Yeah, they didn't let me speak." He was like, "Yeah, they didn't let him finish speaking," and I
was like, "Yeah, I know!" So I've been up there three times at this point. I went up there for an
education meeting too. It's wild because, I've been there multiple times when I was in high
school because there was a youth in government program, so I've been in the state house and in
the chambers before, like pretend debating on a mock government type program. I told my old
history teacher, and he always loves all shit the I'm doing. "I literally took you to the state house
now you actually doing this shit yourself!"
MP: Was this from Flora?
MM: Yeah, from Flora. He's like the coolest history teacher and he just glad I'm doing
the shit I'm doing.
MP: That's cool. I feel like I might know the answer to this, but do you see yourself ever
getting into politics?
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Uh, it's something I've been battling with honestly. I could see it and it's something
like early on I was like, I could see myself being a politician, but it's difficult now. Especially
with the leftist circles, Black politicians always get unnecessary hate and heat. Sometimes it's
reasonable, sometimes it's like--and it'll be from their own community a lot, like Kwadjo, he got
run out of the East Side. Like a lot of people from here didn't want him here, but he's still to this
day will rock with the Black interest that's going on in the city. But it's like from his own people
would just like a lot of hate. Even like recent example, what's his name? He's like the--I forgot
his name. Bald dude--oh, Rutherford. Mika went out on him really hard. I didn't really comment
on it because me and Mika were on the best terms at that point, but we're good now. But
anyways, she was going in on him, it was like, "Black politicians, dah-dah-dah-dah," like going
in, and I remember, it was probably a week later, somebody was going in on what's his name? It
was like a North Charleston city council member. He was like, "They always go bad on Black
politicians." I was like, "You just did that with the person before!" And the reason she went in on
him was because he had went on some like private jet, some trips with his new wife. I was like in
my eyes, because they've volunteered with us before. But in my eyes I was like, it's their
honeymoon! Let them--I get it, probably shouldn't have done it on taxpayer funds, that's some
fucked up shit. But it's like, dude, what about the other politician? I feel like they're not the only
ones in history who've ever done that shit. Let them have their honeymoon dude.
Anyways. I don't know. I think that if I do, it'd be something I do when I'm young
because I don't want to be one of those old politicians. They get so fucking comfortable. So if I
do it, I'd probably do it like 25 and try to cut myself like 30 or 35. Because 35 is like when
you're, I don't know, your brain chemistry changes. Like you're a different person, especially
when you're 40. I would never want to be over 40--you're not going to catch me doing that. I'd
�Marcus McDonald
rather just what Latonya does. That could possibly be my future. She wants me to take over with
some of the program director stuff, like near future, because she wants to go back to being on the
planes and stuff as a stewardess. So to answer your question, I could maybe see it, but I guess it'd
be something that I want to do at the local level. I wouldn't want to run like a US Senate or
something, you know, there's a bunch of fuckheads we need to get out of there. I mean, I'm not
afraid of getting like bad press, but just like.
MP: I feel like it'd be hard to get a lot done. Like the further away from local you go.
MM: Exactly. And there's a lot of local power dude. Like even with the caller saying like,
[inaudible] and the ACLU, there's so much power on that call. We were talking about doing
some advocacy work around, getting another, system review board. And it was like, we have the
people power right here. Like push some shit. Like this group we even have here-- we had the
immigration coalition there too. It was like a multiracial front. I don't know where I was going
with that. We have more people power than sometimes politicians will.
MP: Yeah, and there's always the weird, quote, unquote, obligations that I feel like
politicians just carry sometimes. But I had another question about something. Oh, at St. Julian
Divine's, the art show you've been doing with the kids. How many kids did you have at last one?
MM: It was seven kids last one. And we're trying to have another one, like I was saying
with the Africa Day and I didn't get to tell you the full scope of that. I want to be like Kings and
Queens theme and I want it to have different leaders from Africa that aren't spoken about.
There's one queen. I'm kicking myself because I don't even remember her name, but you
probably seen her picture. I low-key want to be controversial and do the anti-colonial like
leaders--I definitely want, actually, I'm not going to say maybe. Well, what I might not do--and I
was thinking was like, this would be funny and people probably try to crucify me for it, but do
�Marcus McDonald
Gaddafi. I've learned a lot about Gaddafi, dude. It's like, yes, he did a lot of fucked-up shit, but at
same time, what America and the rest of the world's left Libya, Gaddafi would have done a better
job pretty much. Libya was like number one in literacy rates in Africa, it had one of the highest
GDPs. Like he was trying to make a united, like a central bank for Africa, like all this shit, and
they killed him. I looked at videos now, like from the Vietnam era, it was like, "Yeah, like we
fought to get Gaddafi out. But honestly like now fuck this mother fucker! Look where we're at
now." And he said, if you could've went back in time, you know, somebody from Libya, he was
like, I would've done it different. We would've all pretty much preferred Gaddafi. So thinking
about doing a themed event like that. But yeah, it was a really good show out. The kids made
around like four or five hundred dollars split up between them. But yeah, we had people bidding.
The mayor was there, his wife. She bid on a whole bunch of things. Historic Preservation Society
bid on everything at first, just to get some interest in it.
MP: Was that the group that was really concerned about the smokestacks?
MM: Yeah.
MP: That's what I thought. That was a whole thing. Yeah, no, I only just recently learned
about St. Julian Divine. What a cool guy though.
MM: Yeah, I still don't know much about him.
MP:
I found an article I'll send you. Cool people, he was the first, since Reconstruction, he
was the first Black city council member in Charleston, I think like '65 maybe. I'll send you some
stuff. Gosh, I don't know. I mean, we've talked about so much. Do you have anything that you
want to--any big thoughts, any words you want out there preserved for forever?
MM: Well, I feel like we haven't talked about police as much.
�Marcus McDonald
MP: We haven't! Yeah.
MM: You want to talk about that?
MP: Absolutely.
MM: Do you have a question already?
MP: I want to hear what you had to say about police first. What are your first thoughts?
MM: Well, we want to go back to when I was a kid, just those experiences, like early on,
dude, like with that, that kind of shaped me in a way. It didn't like radicalize me at the time I
don't think, but it did just like, like I'm just a motherfucker from that neighborhood to you? I'm a
person, I'm a human. And the way they dehumanized gang members and like stuff like that. And
just like looking at, like, I grew up with gang members, Folk Nation, those people. I feel like for
a lot of people, they don't understand this shit, but it's like, I don't know. It's like you not
understanding it and over-criminalizing it, it's gonna put kids in jail. Even some of the kids I
work with at Burke, they're talking about like--I think one of them's like Real Right Blood. He's
in ninth grade. This gang task force, you're attacking kids like him. It's like maybe if you give
them more opportunities and help his mom out with the bills or something, he wouldn't be doing
this shit. Maybe he still would. Those early experiences definitely shaped me.
MP: Just the criminalization of Black kids.
MM: Of that yeah, of Blackness. Even if you go back to the hip hop show, like, you
know, we can't even have loud music. They already think we're already on some shit. That
experience and just like my experience personally with police, I get stopped all the time. I've
never gotten like--oh, there was one time I ran from the cops and they tried to tase me, and this is
something that I didn't think about it, but like, I'm glad they didn't shoot me or anything, but this
was back when I was in high school. So I've always had like different run-ins and stuff. My
�Marcus McDonald
views on it definitely have radicalized a little bit since I've been doing movement work because
I've seen--and I've done my own research and studied the history of them as runaway slave
patrols and the stop and frisk and even recently there was this one police officer who actually-Reynolds, they fired him, but they keep him anonymous to protect his identity or something.
What the officer did was they like just write tickets, had like a quota system or something like
that. It's something that everybody knows obviously, but they say that they don't do it, and then
they got called out with this shit. They obviously, like I said, they fired him or whatever, but it
was like that damage has already been done, that trauma has been done. So I moved past like
their forum, like I'm more of an abolitionist. I think we can live in a world without police and
prisons. I do think it takes a lot of work for that to happen. We have to disarm, dismantle, and
create a world--I saw a map about this recently, but the wealth inequalities in America are so
fucking wild. You think it wouldn't be as bad. I have to look at the graph so I can show you this
real quick. But it's wild bro. Oh this is actually--I don't know if I showed you this, but this is at
the center before. Yeah, isn't it night and day?
MP: Yes!
MM: Yeah, night and day. Anyways.
MP: Do you want some more water?
MM: Yeah, I'll get some.
MP: I got you. Want some ice cubes?
MM: That'd be dope.
MP: Yeah, pull up that graphic though.
MM: Yeah, I'll pull it up. But yeah, so the wealth inequality is so fucking bad in America.
The police are here to criminalize poverty nine times out of ten. If we can't live in a world where
�Marcus McDonald
y'all are the violent arms of capitalism and enforcing that, it's like can't live in a world like that.
So yeah, that's kind of where my mind's shifted towards. I think we can live in a world without
them. We've lived in worlds before, police haven't always existed. It takes some time and it take
some organizing, but I'm going forward. Like I said, it's not going to be overnight. It's not going
to be in my lifetime most likely, but I think it's a possibility in a world we can live in.
MP: Someone, some generations got to start that process and it looks like it's ours. Or no,
I mean, it's been going on, but I feel like lately, I mean, people are just really pushing, which is
great. Here you go. Um, let me formulate a question. I have a lot of thoughts-MM: Do you have an iPhone charger I could borrow?
MP: Yeah, I think there's one on that wall there.
MM: Got it. Maybe.
MP: If not, there's one in my room I can grab.
MM: No, I've got it. Yeah, so the correct statement is--this is the graphic. So the country's
wealth distributed equally and the average person, I mean, how much wealthier, and America is
six times. And it's normally like two times some other places, but six times here. And the
average is two times richer, seven times in Russia. The average global wealth, it'd be different, I
guess we'd come up less because we're a richer nation overall, but that shows that. It just shows
how unequal wealth is in our country. We usually think of ourselves as like, "Oh, you know, pull
yourself up by your bootstraps." It's obviously not the case. Like even in other parts of the world,
it's like at least equal dude, but you know, like we're so rich, but so unequal. It sets these
disparities.
MP: Which are reinforced by--
�Marcus McDonald
MM: The police. And that's my ideology and I've had to buck heads with some many-like the police chief, and all them for this shit. And I've called them out on Zoom before. I can't
wait to get back in person so I can just like look at him in the face because sometimes that's
needed. And show them I'm not afraid of you, dude. Like you have a gun, I have a gun too. I'm
not going to shoot you because I'd go to jail for the rest of my life and you'll probably fucking
get away. So I've had to hold them to the fire a few times. I've done it Al Cannon, the sheriff
even, the new one and the old one, and the chief because he says some off the wall shit about
gangs. I was on a call at CGCC, and this is why I like have to call CGCC out sometimes
because--and they have a role because somebody has to have these meetings with the cops. They
had their meeting and then this man was talking something about like there's some people that
just have to stay in jail. Like they keep coming back out there, like repeat offenders. And I sent
him a link--just thinking about it pisses me off--I sent him a link about why the super predator
theory is bad. And I sent it to the general Zoom link and I bet there's some people like, "This n--- wild!" Some people were like "This, this, this!" And I was like, "Yeah."
Some people were like, "After he's finished his statement, does anybody have something
to say?" I was like, "All right, I have something to say!" and unmuted and I finished that like,
"Yeah, dude, that predator theory, that's fucked up. You say you're out in the community. I'm in
the East Side right now, I only see you when some shit's popped off and you know that that's
true." He's even said statements towards Latonya--not like against her but he's made some
statements when talking with her and she's like, "Nah, I don't fuck with that." This was back
during the protests, it was afterwards, and I guess a trash can was on fire and it was outside of the
projects. But yeah, somebody after the trash can fire, allegedly, they came through and like tear
gassed, was shooting rubber bullets everywhere and shit. It just, it was some bullshit, and the
�Marcus McDonald
chief was like, "Well, you know, y'all have a real bad drug problem out there." It was like that
doesn't have anything to do with why the fuck y'all were out here! So that statement alone lost a
lot of respect, the chief lost a lot of respect from Latonya and the East Side community in general
because she speaks for the East Side a lot. Like I said, it was just like, it was some, I don't know.
It was some other shit. But besides that, I had to call him out about his shit, just like, "Yo, these
super predators you talk about, these are my kids. The average gang member is this age. Maybe
if you gave them some resources and do something, we wouldn't be in these positions. You do all
this performative shit, but shit don't really mean anything." Like no one fucking needs an ice
cream truck, we don't need this shit. People need jobs and actual shit. Like they get, you know,
the average gang member is this age dude...
And he was saying something too. He was saying this one person, "He's off now and I
know he's running around with his gun," and it's like, "Yeah, you're running around with your
gun too, bro! You ain't going to take a bullet if somebody try to shoot him." Look at it from the
other side, dude. Like these people have families. Like what if he dies, who's gonna take care of
his kids? Not your bitch ass. So it's like I had to call him out, call Al Cannon out. Al Cannon
tried to outcast me as a whole fucking joke, I'm glad it's the last conversation that happened.
Because the last time I saw him was at the Lindsay Graham rally and I gave all of them some
words of mouth for me. I went solo dolo, but I was over there turn out. I was like, "Fuck you,
Lindsay Graham," and I didn't even know some Lindsay Graham rally. It was like right beside
my home girl's house and I thought it was a Trump rally and then the Lindsay Graham bus pulled
up and I was like "Oh, shit." Like I'm staying for this shit. I actually tried to play "Fuck Donald
Trump" at the end, but they ended up running me away and they tried to call the police on me
�Marcus McDonald
and I had my strap on me so I was like, "Oh, fuck, I probably need to go." Anyways, I was like,
this is not where I need to go. I can't go out like this so I dipped.
But what was I going to say? Calling out police. I called out Al Cannon too and this was
the last conversation, and he was like trying to appease me on some shit. Long story short, they
wanted to get a white, older gentlemen who--I don't even know. He works with a lot of inmates. I
don't even know why the fuck he asked me this question. But he was like, "We work with all
inmates. We don't like to see color." Like it's mostly Black male inmates that look just like me,
so focus on them. They're the main population. Don't try to like rainbow color this shit. Like I'm
glad you help everybody but Black people need the most help, Black males, especially. So
anyways, I was like, boom, like that's how I feel about things, and he was like, "Oh, like tell me
about the Black experience." So I was like, all right, I'm a humor you this time, "This is how the
fuck it is. I grew up over-criminalized," I didn't mind, I told him that story. I don't think they had
time but I was pissed off. I was like, "With the shit we go through, we don't have any experience-our dad didn't have, our family didn't have the money to do all this shit." And then Al Cannon
just chimes in--he said this one thing and that just pissed me off. I already knew he was on to
some bullshit, and then the second thing pissed me off even more and that's when I called him
out.
But the first thing he said, "Oh, if you need a mentor, like somebody look up to, I know
Tim Scott!" I was like, "Boy oh boy. I do not want to fucking meet Tim Scott. I'm not talking
about me; I don't need a mentor. I'm talking about these kids out here." Like the average kid,
forty percent of Black youth grow up in poverty. This shit's a real reality for folks. I don't want to
meet Tim Scott, these folks don't want to meet Tim Scott. Anyways, second thing he said that
pissed me off, and this is just shows about the leadership of the police, they're so backwards. But
�Marcus McDonald
he was like, "Yeah, like I feel you Marcus, like I grew up like--" mind you, Al Cannon was born
I think the same year as Emmett Till, like '46 or something. But he was like, "Yeah, I feel you.
Like, I grew up poor," and Lindsay, Graham likes to do this too, "I grew up poor. My family
was--" Like, you grew up poor white. Like you say the whole thing. Like you grew up as a poor
white in the fifties. Programs are meant to get you out of this shit and you were able to benefit
from them. And now that you've benefited, you like to attack welfare. You benefit still today,
like more white people are on welfare than Black people. But if you listen to what the news says
about it, you'd never know that. They like to paint that as like the things, "All Black people love
welfare." It's like "Bro, you enslaved us and brought us here. Like what the fuck? And then
discriminated us continuously to this day."
Like even today, a Black sounding name is less likely to get a job. I was arguing with
somebody recently. It was like, "I believe that everybody can get a job," she just talking about
homeless people. Because we were saying like, "Oh yeah, like not everybody has the resources,"
and she said, "No, I believe everybody can do it because I came here. I'm Mexican, like I came
here." I was like, bro. And I bought the Black sounding name thing and the generational wealth,
and I was like, "Dude, like not only the generational thing, but you're white passing. We don't
have that. Like we can't change our name or change our accent. We're Black. And we get
discriminated against. So don't pretend like this shit is just, you can pull yourself--" It was the
bootstraps theory. And that's what Al Cannon's trying to say. And I was like, no, so I called him
out and I think I got a lot of respect from Latisha from that. Cause she was on the call and she
was like, "Yeah. You said what you had to say."
MP: Yeah. I mean his bootstraps were pulled up for him.
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Exactly! It's like, especially in the South dude, like you don't feel me. You don't
feel me. That's pretty what I had to say. I was like, you don't feel me, but yeah. As far as the
police, as a whole, like I said, the gang enhancements all that stuff, the anti-Blackness with the
music, loud music thing. Even in Charleston but around the world. It's often always rooted in
white supremacy. You even look at the Minneapolis police--this is something I didn't know
about until recently. But the Minneapolis police founded--I'd have to look up the actual graphic
so I don't misquote it, but I think the founder of it, the first sheriff was in the KKK, there was
like a eugenics person who was in the KKK who founded the city. The city was built on so much
white supremacy.
I don't know the direct history with Charleston but it's like a runaway slave patrol. I
actually do want to dig in and see when they decide, "Well, the slaves are free, fuck. All right, I
guess we'll fuck up the East Side and do all this dumb shit." I don't know. The history behind it is
like the reason I've gotten so radicalized. It's just, we keep dying and they kill three people a day
last year. I think the rate's even higher now. It's not only like, it's predominantly Black and
Brown kids, but it's everybody. It's a violence system and it doesn't have to be like that. It's not
like in--like our rates compared to anywhere else, other countries, it's absurd, dude. And people
don't see that, people argue for pro police, it's like, look at the stats, dude. Like this is a reality,
and other countries, their cops don't even have guns. And people will think that "Oh yeah, cops-such a dangerous job." Roofing and like--they're just not in the top ten most dangerous jobs--or
they might be top ten but not even top five. It's roofing and like a whole bunch of other shit. The
most times that the police get killed is like accidental vehicle collisions. And then, I think three
percent of all police killings are from something violent, like a weapon or something.
MP: It's some crazy small statistic.
�Marcus McDonald
MM: Yeah, and then the other ones will be some fish stuff. Anyways, I don’t' want to dig
too deep into specifics, but it's like a lot of times they'll put up this front about what they have to
deal with and like all this shit and it's like, yeah, y'all do a lot, but it's a job at the end of the day.
It's like, just do your job, dude. That's all we're asking you. And y'all are asking for more power.
You're asking for marketing and stuff. We didn't ask for all that shit, we just asked for you to do
your job and leave us the fuck alone. That's my ideas about them. And then, like I said, there is
support where--I mean, I don't know. I don't even want to--there has to be like some mental
health, first responders, something like that. Somebody has to deal with issues like that and
obviously need ambulances, stuff like that, but the police just as it is now in the US, it's just so
fucked. I'm passionate for it as an abolitionist this point. Still trying to figure out ways to do it.
And that's the thing too, is like, there's a lot of abolitionists that are like, "Fuck it. Yeah.
Abolish." But they'll be so hard on that, they won't even do the in-between stuff. And they'll be
so abolition focused--there's like some abolitionist policies that might look like reform, but
they're closer to abolition. Like I think the racial bias audit is an abolitionist thing because it
doesn't give more money to cops and it's an independent review so you know what the fuck's
going on with the thing. And there's abolitionists who are like, "I don't fuck with the racial bias
audit," I was like, "All right, what the fuck are we going to do other than that?" Like, what's the,
there's no alternative. So I've had those internal battles with folks. I mean, it is what it is. That
work will have to continue for abolition to be possible. Like if we don't have that in-between
work and we just protests every other summer, it's not going to move the needle. I challenge
those people all the time. If you want to do the work with abolition, let's do it, what are you
going to do? What's your next plan?
�Marcus McDonald
MP: I mean, you have to use the tools that you have to make more tools. I think like the
city of Charleston police racial bias audit, is that 2015?
MM: They did it, I think it might've been 2016. They finished it, their first
implementation report comes out, I think, in the next couple of weeks actually.
MP: Yeah. And I feel like that's great because after that came out, or the first like version
of it came out, I feel like more people were like, "Oh, so we have the actual statistics and
numbers so we can make a bigger case for defunding and taking those first steps." I feel like we
saw a lot--I think after that is when CAJM really started pushing for the North Charleston one,
because they were like, if we have these numbers here in Charleston and we know the same thing
is happening in North Charleston, but we actually, we have to have the numbers to be able to do
anything. Which is insane. But it's a great first step.
MM: Yeah, no, and it was good too because there's a lot of shortcomings with it. They
were now able to analyze and use for the North Charleston--even in our meeting, I was like,
"What's something that y'all wish you could have done? Like number one thing you wish you
could have done but didn't do for the Charleston one?" And she was like this, this coalition. And
I was like, all right, bet. Let's get the meeting going, felt really good to me because I was like,
damn, this is what you wanted. What was I about to say--oh yeah. So there's some shortcomings
with it, and also a difference between that one and the North Charleston one is that CNA, the
company that's doing the audit, is doing the implementation. So it makes it, in my eyes-Charleston's audit was independent, their limitation was then--because Wendy, who works, like
the chief is her boss. So the implementation, it hasn't been independent because at the end of the
day, she has to answer to him. Versus CNA.
�Marcus McDonald
When they're doing the audit with North Charleston, they answer to the city at the end of
day, which also has its shortcomings, but at same time, it's independent from the police. Like
they don't have to talk to the police about the implementation. I mean, they do obviously,
because you know, it's implemented through them, but at the end of the day, the person doing the
implementation, their boss isn't the chief. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you know, it's different. So
I'm excited about it and I think we'll be able to hold them to the fire a little bit more because I
feel like Wendy has backed down with the chief, like she like uses the chief as like--she says that
shit a lot. And I'm like, "It's your audit! Like do this shit." I've had my own tiffs, you know,
butting heads with Wendy but we're on neutral terms, I guess, I haven't talked to her in a minute.
It's definitely--the audit, it's an interesting process, but it's difficult getting people together and
getting people to rally around one thing when some people just want to be on the optics and just
be out there and, you know, protests are nice. Demonstrations are nice, but the real work needs to
be done and it's not pretty sometimes, it's fucking boring. You have to go to an hour meeting and
sit down and sometimes people don't want to do that shit. And it's like, I'm sorry, but that work
has to be done for this work continue. So I'm just trying to get people to organize around that. It
hasn't been easy. Just keeping people organized about it, man. It's been a lot, but we figured it
out. I think we've gotten better and this has definitely been a learning experience, but we're
figuring it out though. We've got a lot of community support and that's what matters.
MP: People power.
MP: Yeah. Yup.
MP: Great. Something else I haven't asked you anything about is gentrification. I mean,
you're working so close with the East Side community and I feel like this is where so much
gentrification in the city's happening right now. I feel like everywhere else on the peninsula has
�Marcus McDonald
been really heavily gentrified already, but we can see it happening here every day. So how does
gentrification impact or guide the work that you do? Do you do anything?
MM: Yeah, it does a lot. And I think, you know, you actually just reminded me about
something because I have to check in with Back to Green real quick.
MP: Oh yeah. Do you want me to pause this?
MM: Nah, I might just write a note to myself: check in on Back to Green, they're about to
build a substation, but yeah, that substation.
MP: That connection between policing and gentrification.
MM: Gentrification, yeah, exactly. And there is an intrinsic link, even if you look at the
Breonna Taylor case, they were about to gentrify that area. It's just, it's so intrinsic of a link. And
then even if you look at what they say on the Facebook page, "these people on the streets," and
who those people, those are young, Black teens, they're just having a good time. Fuck off, pretty
much, like you would have probably been doing the same shit. But they're definitely linked. It's
been gotten worked on in a lot of places, so not only here, North Charleston is actually the
number one in the United States, I think. I was just talking to Keith about this recently. His area
is getting gentrified.
Oh, AJ Davis, you know him--I didn't even know this, he works at Burke! So I was like
in the teacher's lounge, literally like, I shit you not, I was opening up my phone and I had just
looked, I wanted to see if I had his number, but I didn't add his Facebook. I was like, "I don't
know if I should hit him on Facebook or Instagram," thinking about what to do, about to eat my
sandwich, like "Let me eat this sandwich then hit him back, hit him up." He walks through the
door! I'm like, "Oh, shit, hey!" He said hey to me and I didn't recognize because he had his mask
on. "Oh, what's up! N----, I was literally just about to hit you up." So we chatted it up and I told
�Marcus McDonald
him about the coalition and whatever, just kind of talking and figuring things out. I don't know
where I was going with that, but yeah, he was just telling me like, same shit. The area is getting
gentrified so heavily and I've had arguments even with my family about this shit because
somebody says like gentrification is inevitable, it's like--that's one of my big tiffs with cap--that's
a real capitalism type of thing. Like it has always has to get to a certain level, like nice-ass
houses. Sometimes low-income housing--like people need still need to live here. You still need
people to work in your kitchens, even though they shouldn't be held to only jobs like that. You
still need people like that. And Charleston such a food and beverage industry, public
transportation is so ass that it's gonna crumble the Black culture too. It's like, y'all fucking profit
so much off the Black culture but it's like, y'all don't really appreciate the Black people who are
living here, day to day type things.
And that's one of the really disgusting things I've just seen. Even in the movement work
is that they love the culture but they just don't love Black people. If we can have that linked--and
also too, something else, and this is more on the leftist side, and I push it in our stories: I want
y'all to love Black people like y'all hate cops. Cause there's some people who are new to the
radical left scene who are like, "Fuck cops," but be forgetting that Black people are struggling.
You know, help out Eastside Community Development Center, we do food drives and we've
been promoting this shit, asking people to volunteer, but it be crickets. It's like, bro, like don't
say, or don't criticize either. Like you can criticize me, but I'm not listening to this shit because
you ain't doing shit. If you're doing shit--and the person who critiques me, she does, she does
shit. So I'll listen to you, you know what I mean? Even though she might have misunderstood
what I do, if you do shit and you're in this community, I'll always listen to you, because you have
that reference of like, it's a dangerous and scary world sometimes as an activist. You want all this
�Marcus McDonald
good stuff to happen and you're also doing your own shit. I've had to keep [inaudible] a whole
bunch of activists who were like--and I've been able to spread my knowledge to other people.
Some people are like, "Oh, I'm so down. I feel like it's so much work," like people have been
hitting me up. It's like, "Dude, I feel like you, nobody's perfect." So like I had a real good kind
of--one of my home girls at Charles House, she was going through some things and I'm just like,
"Yeah, I'm just going to be straight," so I'm glad my own experiences with dealing with the
pressure and dealing with like my own issues at the same time, it's like juggling that, I've been
able to impart that knowledge on other people. I'm only relatively new to the scene. I've had a lot
of experiences just like, dealing with different shit and juggling and figuring things out. I know
we've gotten off topic a little bit.
MP: Totally fine.
MM: Yeah, fuck it. No, definitely learned a lot though. I think we were talking about the
gentrification. Yeah. But I mean, um,
MP: And if you want to talk more, too, about how policing and gentrification are linked?
MM: Yeah, no, definitely. They definitely are. I mean with the substation at Back to
Green, that's one of the biggest things. There is crime problems, but it's the poverty problem, like
that's the main thing. It's like, y'all, aren't doing the poverty problem. There's a lot of other small
shit, and not even small, it's important to the community. The housing authority did a survey and
they're like, what are the three things that are most important to you? And I shit you not, it was in
this order: flooding, the bugs, and the shootings. Shootings were third on the list of the shit that
they really cared about and the city hasn't done to address the top two. There's still bugs, I went
in there, I was out there like a couple of weeks ago, still bug-infested. The waste is bad. I think
waste is the fourth one. The city wants to make these quick fixes but not the ones that the people
�Marcus McDonald
are asking for. So it's like, they're intrinsically linked and the city just does what the fuck they
want for all these developers to come in, just do the fuck they want. And then we see at the city
council meetings, I sit through them all the time and it's just like, bullshit, because they
continuously do it. And like I said, the over-policing of areas.
And there's some old community leaders--and that's why another reason why I'll never be
an old politician, because these old Black men are like, "Oh, we want more police," and they'll
be asking for this shit. It's like, "Fuck you, dude," there's Black kids, Black youth, who are going
to be affected by this shit. You're going to be fine, you're an old Black gentleman, they're not
going to wrap you up, but they're going to throw my ass on the fucking ground. On some other
shit. I saw this--it was not a funny graph, it was ironic, because it was a news story about them
building a new substation when it first came out. The story was that they did it to increase public
safety. So I remember this vision like yesterday. You know how the headline's on the bottom?
And it was like, "New Substation to Increase Public Safety," and then in the video, it was like a
SWAT team of AK47s going into the hood. I was like, "How the fuck is this safe? What is going
on?" Just that disconnect. What? Is this safe to you? Does this look like safety? Like kids looking
at this every day, does that look safe to you? Being in a militarized zone? I don't know, dude. It's
just like a lot of shit. A lot of like, you know, just like fuck shit, dude. I mean, they're
intrinsically linked.
Side note about like other ways gentrification--like with the roads up in Mount Pleasant,
with the Phillips community and the Six Mile community and Seven Mile community, that big
road, they've already taken so much space. That road's gotten so much overdeveloped since
they've been there. And I'm mad as hell because I didn't get to speak when I wanted to because I
signed up for the wrong thing I think. But they were like, "Boom, like, does anyone want to
�Marcus McDonald
speak on this or say something," or no, it was the councilmember or whatever and a dude came
out. So all the Black people came up and made their statement like, "What the fuck is going on?
Stop this shit," and I don't even think it was the Phillips community, it was a different
community, but similar issue. It was the developer. He was like, "This is not a race thing," and
he's a white dude, and I really wish I could've said something. In my head though I was like,
"They love to make it not a race when it's something that benefits Black people." You can't
withdraw the race card. You invented the race card! Whiteness has not always been--I mean, you
do your history, but whiteness has not always been, it used to be nationalities and in Europe it's
still like people looking at themselves like, "I'm Italian. I'm not--" but the invention of whiteness
and I know I was going somewhere with this.
MP: Um, race card, developer?
MM: Yeah, like y'all created this shit. And I feel like I see it all the time, dude. Even with
the police shootings and stuff, the race card was invented by y'all, we are retrieving it, using it
because we have the facts. I had to pull away from, even like when people say I'm using the race
card, it's like, it's about race. If it's race-related between two races, it's about race. So it's like, you
can't take that away, and I feel like with gentrification, a lot of people like to do that. Because
you can be a Black person gentrifying a neighborhood too, but at the same time, I don't know. A
lot of people try to be like, "I don't see color," when it suits them and I've been really good at
calling that shit out.
And it's the same thing with the All-Lives Matter thing. Somebody said that shit recently
and that shit always irks me every time somebody says this shit. Because we didn't say that all
lives didn't matter, but I don't want to have that argument. We agree that all lives do matter, but
Black lives--anyways, you know this. The one time somebody said it and I didn't say shit, I was
�Marcus McDonald
in jail so I was like, "Hey, whatever," I just left it at that. The last time somebody said it, it was
an Uber driver, and I still didn't say shit, because it was an old Black lady. She said at the end,
she's like, "Well, all lives matter." Charlie's ass was the one who introduced me. I punched
Charlie after, I was like, "That's why I don't ask you to introduce me as that--" as the Charleston
Black Lives Matter thing. She didn't really say anything after, just, "Oh, that's nice," and then at
the end she said, "All lives matter," and I was like, "Man."
And that's why I don't like getting introduced and why I don't like doing Uber drivers
because you never know who the fuck's in your car. No, not trying to do that. I just do Uber Eats
because I'm fine with that. Like I said, "Aren't you?" Nope, nope, nope, get out my car, the trip is
over. Yeah, especially because I'm not trying to have--if I had like a kid in my car who was
saying some dumb, trying to have a real philosophical conversation with me about shit, but was
on some stupid shit, I'd be like, "Yeah, I'm just going to end this trip, sorry. Like I can't." And
especially also for my safety too, like I don't want--if somebody tries like, you know--I'll smoke
you get in my car and then drop your ass off and tell Uber about it. Like leave me alone. Not to
say I'm like a tough guy, but I have to protect myself and you're behind me. Definitely that's why
I don't do Uber. And that's why I don't like even announce myself, depending on like the crowd.
Like, "This is what I do. I do the activist work." I say all of that to say sometimes, especially
nowadays, being in the BLM puts a target on your back. I've even--people will even try to
associate us with the global foundation. And I was like, "Don't have shit to do with--like we're an
independent chapter." So it's definitely been something that I've had to learn about, learn just
how to react to different folks.
Sometimes I can't fight everybody, dude. If you think it's this type of way, it's only so
much I can teach you. You're going to have to do the research yourself because this shit's
�Marcus McDonald
happening. I can't explain this shit to you. You know what I mean? Like I can, but look around
you! I guess kind of one of my last little points on the gentrification-policing thing: you saw it in
Gonzales Gardens, this project in Columbia, had a substation, same thing. Right after that, it's
torn down now so they could build up and gentrify the fuck out of it. Tore down the Church's
Chicken that was right there. But anyways, it's an intrinsic link, especially with Back to Green, I
think it's like the number one example. It was only the housing authority who asked for it, not the
people. Only like a certain amount, like older gentlemen asked for this shit, so it didn't get the
full community voice. Now it's just going through, just because it's one of those easy things you
can obviously push, it's like, "Oh, police substation. Oh, we'd love that." They give them more
money.
The police are so fucking--their budgets. In every city, I think it's the number one thing, it
always sucks up so much resource from the actual, the people who need the money. And that's
why people trip when we say defund the police. It's like, "Bro, like they have so much fucking
money, dude, and people are still poor." And they criminalize poverty. So, it's like, what you got
going on, dude? I don't know how to explain this to you; the resources be limited. The resource
has to come from somebody. "Won't that make it harder to do their job?" I think it's like less than
twelve percent of their calls are for violent crimes. It's twelve, what the fuck? The rest of this shit
is bullshit or it could be done through other means. Like with the traffic stops, like they don't
need to be doing all this shit. It's always been forever predators. When was it radically changed?
It has never been radically changed. They'll throw a police camera on, turn it off when they do
some dumb shit. Even with the Adam Toledo thing, they're like, "All right, cameras off, cameras
off." They put millions and millions--the city just paid for some cameras for the police
�Marcus McDonald
department. And we see so much shit on camera and we're tired of this shit. We saw Walter Scott
on camera, we didn't even need the body cam. Shit's fucked up.
MP: You can take such a small percentage of the police's huge budget and put it in so
many places. Defending--it doesn't have to mean anything. And I think that's where there's a lot
of contention with it because people don't quite understand. But I agree, like you're saying,
poverty is criminalized, Blackness is criminalized. But when you give the police that much
resources, they're going to make it their job to just remove people that they don't want to be here.
And it's happening. It's happening.
MM: Yeah. But we'll figure it out though. It's a long battle, but I'm in it to win it. Got to
do something about it. But I'm glad I'm young and I feel like that's what a lot of people fuck with
and the old heads respects me for it just cause they're like, "I was young, your age. Like I'm not
that way anymore. I'm old. I'm not as radical as I--" actually there's some old folks who are still
radical. I didn't know this, but I had a Black Panther, like an O.G., like I didn't even know
Columbia had a Black Panther Party, but it had a Black Panther org., and apparently they got
bombed. They had gone to a rally; it was after King got assassinated. They went to organize
somewhere and then when they got back, the FBI pretty much raided their shit, blew up their
shit. Yeah, damn, how the fuck did I not know this shit about Colombia? So, she was like,
"Yeah, we were just grassroots organizers, we were small, but we had headquarters and all that,"
and I was like, "Damn, that's hard as fuck." She was on our meetings; she was a real one in our
meetings. She was on point, just being on some real shit. She lives out in North Charleston too.
Looking back on that coalition, it was so diverse and just on point, like with people who
were like bad about it. Like she was an old head, obviously because she was with the Panthers,
she was around when King was assassinated. And I can't even imagine being alive in that era and
�Marcus McDonald
hearing that news, like what the fuck? I can't even imagine how that would feel. Because he's
always been that in our lives so we always immortalized him, and sometimes not in the right
way, but you know, he was a human being, somebody just taken from the community, who is
both idolized and hated sometimes. I feel like the whole--at least from what she was telling me,
everybody was like, "What the fuck, dude?" Especially the way it happened. And the way
Malcom X died, it was obviously riots too, but a little different because it was Nation of Islam
who was initially blamed for it. But if you look at it, I don't know if you saw, but the cop that
they arrested, his body guard or some shit--a lot of people were saying the police had a hand in
his murder. And I don't doubt that at all because the police--and that's another reason why I'm
such an abolitionist because I've learned about what they did with Fred Hampton. I don't know if
you've seen the Judas and the Black Messiah movie, the stuff they did with Fred Hampton, the
[inaudible] program.
And one of the old heads tried to school me about this--I know about this shit! I don't
want to talk over the phone too much. It's just, it's real bro. They've established all these things.
And even today, they clock my Instagram and I have to be cautious about--I don't know, I don't
think they'd try to maul me, but they've done that in organizations and they spread false news.
And this wouldn't be police, it'd be more like FBI, CIA. You know, decentralize organizations,
because they've done it before. I don't doubt that they'd do it again or that they're continuously
doing it. Even with the shit with the Patrisse Cullors thing, like they're saying it's a right wing
thing but I don't know who started this, it could easily be a government program. I've been
clocking it, just trying to, like I said--and that's another reason I'm against being a politician too
early. I'm not jumping at it like people, "You should do this," nah, I'm not. I'm good in there at
�Marcus McDonald
least for now. Also, I don't want it to seem like I'm just in it so I could get a political position
because I feel like I'd also get that like, "Oh. You just started--" No, I don't give a fuck about this.
But especially if the East Side asked me--because City Councilmember Mitchell is
looking to groom somebody, like we'll check and see. Like, you know, I rock with it, and if I did
do it, it would probably be something like that, like be a city councilmember. But at the same
time, I don't know. Like I said, it'd be difficult, man; you got to time it right. Gotta be the right
time. Gotta have the right person, gotta have the right relationship with the community. That's
important too. I think it's tough, especially if you don't already have that connection with the
community. I feel like it wouldn't be tough for me because the East Side's like family, a lot of
people around here fuck with me real heavy. Even the kids, like I was just up in Burke and, "Oh
yeah, I see you around all the time." I pulled up to Martin Park recently, or not Martin Park,
Philip Simmons Park. I just like randomly just pulled up and dropped off food. We'll have a food
event at Martin Park sometimes. I just like pull up, pass out food. That's how they know me
sometimes, as the random pull up person. Other times I'll pull up with flyers and be like, "We
have a financial literacy class!" A little something different, but I think I've done a good--I feel
like if I ran, I'd get a lot of people to fuck with me. A lot of people that would be in my corner,
but like I said, it'd be something I'd think about later.
MP: All right, last question I'm going to ask you, I don't want to take up your whole day.
MM: It's all good.
MP: What do you envision for the future of Charleston or the future of the East Side?
MM: Well, it could go a couple different ways. I think somebody from--I'll give the
counter of what I don't want to see. One of the old heads is like, "Yeah, man," because I was
passing out my real estate financial literacy center, and he's like O.G. actually. He's real tight
�Marcus McDonald
with Latonya, used to be in the streets, but just respect in the streets, and now he's old, old head,
like actual old head. So can't really do shit now, but anyways, he was talking, "Yeah man, this
city is about to be like the Rainbow Row about to be everywhere." Pretty much like the suburbs,
whitey town, I think that was the term he used. I was like, "Damn, bro, don't tell me that! I'm
young, I still got to live here, bro." So just telling him about this shit. But I think we're at a
pivotal point with it.
As long as I'm here, I'm going to continuously fight for shit but it obviously has to be
bigger than me. And it is bigger than me obviously. But counterexample for what he's thinking, I
think Charleston, it'll either have to or it'll just be a racial divide, and there already is because a
lot of Black folks have already moved up North Charleston. But I think there'll be a couple more
focal points. It's like, all right, we won't let this go. And I think one of the bigger ones that I see
coming up is when they try to tear down Back to Green, because I could easily see them doing
that soon. I think that the long-term strategy is one, stop them from--because what they'll do is
they'll trying to do it as a rag. So they'll just sell it off to a company and the company will make
mixed use housing, which is pretty much move all the Black people out. The shit that pissed me
off about this is because they will say they will have mixed use and a percentage of affordable
housing, quote, unquote, but me and Latonya beat them on the affordable housing. The rent for
this shit was more than I pay in my normal house. And I was like, "Bro, how the fuck?" It was
like supposed to be--it was literally more than I pay. I live in an apartment, like you've been to
my apartment. How the fuck is this shit affordable? And I know it's not public housing but if
you're going to say affordable, make it actually. It's just tripping. If I can't afford this shit,
imagine somebody, like a family of four, people that are going through some shit. So yeah, they
definitely throw that word around.
�Marcus McDonald
But anyways, like I said, I think that will be one of the focal points. I think if we can save
Back to Green and just have it continuously be like a Black hub, like it is now, and save the East
Side, those apartments, if we can save that, then I think we'll be good. Those would be the focal
points. If we can say these places--or not save them, but just enforce something to stop the
predatory lending and stuff going on. If we don't, it's just going to continue to happen, especially
in Charleston. And you can see just so visibly here. Like those new spots by Martin Park, those
big apartment buildings and shit off of Meeting Street. Within the four years, six years we've
been living here, it's just changed so much. As far as the future, I think taking those focal points
and like, "No, we're not going to take this shit anymore. This is where we draw the line," and
then that's going to be the only thing that's going to like, "All right, our foot's in the sand about
this shit." There'll be some key moments like that.
I think there'll always be a Black identity, with the Gullah identity here, I think that that'll
never go away. I think the Black culture will continue to be celebrated, but I think we'll have
more ownership of it as generations go on. I think, especially the International African American
Museum, I think that would be a cool focal place for it. The history has always been here. The
Black folks will still always be here, still holding it down, but I think we're going to get more
gentrified. But they're going to try to take something or there's going to be one building they're
going to take down, and it's like, "All right. Y'all are going too far with this shit." It is going to
take a couple more focal points, but I think it's part of the future.
I think continuously that there'll be the white folks in the Battery will still be there, and
there will still be all-white neighborhoods. So there will still be some segregation, but thinking
like the historically Black neighborhoods here, I think there's a future and it's going be tough.
Just like those fights that I'm talking about as far as the small places that have to lead to the
�Marcus McDonald
preservation of it, and protection of the people who've been living here. I think it just takes time.
But the culture here is so deep and so rich, I think it'll go through its own innovations and
fluctuations. The Black people here, we're warriors, we're strong. The Gullah culture here is so
strong. I think there's a future. It is going to take some continuous fighting. I think we've got a
good future here.
MP: That's good. Well, let's end on a positive note unless you have any other final
thoughts or feelings you want to share.
MM: No, that's about it.
MP: Well, thank you! I'm going to go ahead and turn this off, try to turn this off. Excuse
me Chicken, excuse me.
End of recording.
Transcription by Mills Pennebaker
Reviewed by MLL 7/29/21
�
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
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With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
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Publisher
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Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Mills Pennebaker
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marcus McDonald
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
121 minutes
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Title
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Oral History of Marcus McDonald, interviewed by Mills Pennebaker, 21 April 2021
Subject
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African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Political participation--United States
Black lives matter movement
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Marcus McDonald was born in Silver Springs, MD, and grew up in Columbia, SC. He moved to Charleston in 2014 to attend the College of Charleston, where he graduated with a degree in finances. McDonald is the founder of Adesso Entertainment. <br /><br />In 2020, after the killing of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, he felt compelled to act and started organizing with Black Lives Matter. McDonald talks about the marches organized in downtown Charleston right after the video of George Floyd’s police killing was released and about the police repression that followed. He discusses the challenges of being a new face in the Charleston organizing scene, the process of forming the Independent Charleston Black Lives Matter Chapter, and how he became identified as its leader. <br /><br />In the interview, McDonald reflects on teaching at Burke High School, his work with the Eastside Community Development Corporation, and his participation in several local coalitions that focus on police brutality, racism, and gentrification.
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
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2021-04-21
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1655
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TRANSCRIPT – JOSHUA PARKS
Interviewee: Joshua Parks
Interviewer: Mills Pennebaker
Interview Date: April 18, 2021
Location: East Side, Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 74 minutes
Mills Pennebaker: Okay, this is Mills Pennebaker. It's Sunday, April 18th. For the
recording, could you say your name, please?
Joshua Parks: My name is Joshua Parks, j-o-s-h-u-a p-a-r-k-s.
MP: And we're here mostly to talk about all of the work you've been doing in
Charleston and the Lowcountry, the activism, mutual aid, but I thought we could start
maybe with some fun little childhood background? So if you want to talk a little bit about
where you grew up, family, friends, neighbors, kids you ran around with.
JP: I was born in Philadelphia, but I never--once I was born thereafter like two
years, we moved down South because my entire family's from there. I was there because
my dad was in the military at the time. So I was born in Philadelphia, but I was raised in
Jacksonville, Florida. Growing up, well, I was raised quote unquote, raised Catholic. I
went to Catholic school, Sunday school, I should say, I went to public school, but I went
to Sunday school at a Catholic school. My mother was Catholic because she's from
Pensacola, Florida, which is on the Gulf coast, near Alabama. And that region has a lot of
Black people that do practice Catholicism because obviously the French used to, French
and Spanish were all up in that area so there's that influence that's still there. So I grew up
Catholic in quote unquote Catholic in faith, but it's not your typical strict Catholic
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household, not strict at all. It was mostly culturally Catholic because--the same way
Southern Baptists in this region or Methodists, it's Catholic in that region. So I grew up
that way.
I went to public school my whole life. I played basketball since a young age. Ball
used to be life until I realized that you had to be really, really, really, extremely good,
ridiculously good to make it anywhere in basketball. I was pretty decent, I was pretty
good, but I was nowhere near as good as the folks that make it. After coming to that
realization, I decided that I had to go to school to actually learn, or go to college to
actually learn. And I went to University of West Florida. That was the first college that I
went to, which is in Pensacola, Florida, where my mother's side is from. I went there for
about a year and I wasn't really happy with the school environment. Very white school, it
was very racist school as far as the students that went there, and it just wasn't a very
pleasant place for Black students.
I remember I saw a video on YouTube. It was a video of Dr. Martin Luther King and
Kwame Ture, formerly known as Stokely Carmichael back then. And it was a video, I
believe it was the March Against Fear in like '65 or six-ish, four, five, or six, around that
time. And I remember the clip because Martin Luther King, you know, there's a whole
bunch of people: you have Martin Luther King walking and you have Kwame Ture
walking side by side, and the reporter asked Martin Luther King, he was like, "Do you
think you're going to be able to keep this nonviolent?" And Martin Luther King gave his
normal spiel of like, yes, he was committed to non-violence, that was his principles. Then
at the time, Kwame Ture, who I didn't know of, he was just a young, young dude. I didn't
know who he was. Now this was my introduction to him. And the reporter asked Kwame
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Ture the same question and Kwame Ture basically said, no, he rejected that philosophy.
He basically said that they should be worried about the white people being nonviolent
toward us. And I had never, at that time, I never heard that articulated that way because
you know, the dominant narrative growing up with the public school system and just
American media in general is non-violence and the civil rights movement's theme of nonviolence, even though that was not the case at all in the beginning, but that's what we're
taught. So hearing that articulated for the first time, that resonated with me and I was like,
"Dang, who is this?"
So I looked him up, I looked Kwame Ture up. I watched all his speeches on
YouTube. I bought his books, I read his books, and then I found out that he went to
Howard University. I was like, "Dang, I want to be like him! He went to Howard, if I go
to Howard, I'm going to be like that too!" Young, naive, and stupid. I was like, "If I go to
that school, then--" like the school actually produces the student, which partially it does,
but at the same time, it doesn't. So I transferred to Howard that same semester. Got to
Howard. And it was like overall, it was a great experience. I love DC and I love the
people that I've met at Howard and the experiences I had, the classes, the teachers and
students, the campus, et cetera.
But it was also a challenge at Howard because there was, for the first time in my life, I
met a certain class of Black people. They come from places where they have a lot of
money and some have, like, for instance, didn't know it existed, people grew up with
maids. People grew up with house people, people grew up with nannies. And that just
wasn't where I'm from. I grew up basically working-class. If you had a kid, your grandma
watched him if you couldn't watch him, or you might send them to daycare, which is
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expensive, or you had a family member, or you had a friend. But just hearing kids, Black
kids that came from certain backgrounds such as that was kind of jarring at first. Because
you have an idealized idea of what an HBCU is, especially Howard because it's one of
the most popular. And then you have shows like In Living Color, et cetera, that show
what life would be like, and you realize it's not like--I mean, Hillman is, it's kind of, there
are some instances where it's like Hillman on TV or whatever, but a lot of instances it's
not. It was a struggle between those two worlds, but I will say that I've met a lot of people
that I needed to meet.
I like to say that I got my degree from Howard University, but I definitely got
educated at the bookstore across the street where I worked called Sankofa Bookstore. It
was Black-owned and one of the few Black-owned bookstores that are left in the United
States. From the people I learned from, it's just a community that they had there of
intellectuals, of working people, of Black people from different places, Ethiopia. The
owner is Ethiopian, his wife was African-American. His name is Haile Gerima and her
name is Shirikiana [Aina] Gerima. And basically they're Black filmmakers and Haile
Gerima was the pioneer of Black film. He made the film "Sankofa," which the bookstore
is named after, which is a legendary Black film that everybody should watch. He made
"Bush Mama." He made "Teza," so many films and internationally acclaimed films, but
he's not a household name because he kind of rejected Hollywood. He could have been
the next whatever, but his principles wouldn't allow him to be pimped out by Hollywood.
And his wife is also, Shirikiana Gerima is a great filmmaker in her own. She has a
documentary called "Footprints of Pan-Africanism" that was also very influential on me.
I spent a lot of time at the bookstore, un-learning learning a lot of stuff while relearning
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other things about myself and my community. So that's my zero years old to like twentyone years old in a nutshell.
MP: In a flash! You said the name of the bookstore-JP: Sankofa.
MP: What's the meaning of that?
JP: Sankofa is basically a West African tree proverb. Basically in a nutshell, it
means you can't move forward without recognizing or learning your past. And so it's
usually depicted by a bird that has his neck oriented toward the past, basically saying
learn your history so that you can make the correct decisions in your future. That's really
what his film was about. His film, "Sankofa" was about Black people, and really
everyone, reckoning with the past of slavery. And you know how, even though slavery
doesn't exist, quote, air quotes, doesn't exist today, the entire Atlantic world, and really
the whole world was built on slavery. So it's kind of a film where a woman is blasted to
her past as an enslaved person and she, it was a hell of an experience for her. And that's
all I'll say on the film because I encourage people to watch it.
MP: No spoilers.
JP: Yeah.
MP: And I've heard that phrase around here in the Gullah Geechee community a
little bit. So did you learn about Gullah Geechee community before working at the
bookstore, before moving to DC?
JP: Well, I would say that I was raised Gullah Geechee but I didn't really know it
until I left, which is like the story of a lot of people, especially with Gullah Geechee
culture. Most of our parents and grandparents, it used to be almost a pejorative to call
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someone Geechee because it had a certain connotation. It meant that you country, you're
unlearned, you're uneducated, you're Geechee. Also denoted a certain speech pattern,
Gullah Geechee language, which was called--you'll hear people, not so much today, but
probably prior to the 21st century, you'll hear people call someone who spoke a certain
way Geechee. Because they couldn't understand them. They would call them Geechee
simply for the fact they couldn't understand them. And Gullah is a language that if you
don't have the ear for it, then you probably can't understand.
But it got tended to pejorative, of course. I say that to say growing up in a Gullah
Geechee household, that my father's Gullah Geechee, he's from Sol Legare Island, James
Island. And my mother is from Pensacola, Florida, which is more of a Creole influence,
Black and Creole. So I grew up in a house that was kind of a mixture of both, but there's
a lot of similarities such as the food ways and things like that. But I didn't know, I didn't
really realize how distinctly Southern the culture was until I went to DC. Then I realized
that, oh, people don't eat rice every day with every meal. We did growing up, we'd eat
rice and beans every day. They don't eat certain things, which I thought was just food.
But then to other people, those are like, quote, unquote, ethnic foods or like sub-genres of
food, but to us it was everyday food. So things like food ways.
I remember going--because I was raised in Jacksonville and I used to come here,
come to Sol Legare Island where my family is from like every summer and holidays and
stuff. I would remember the distinct speech pattern, but I didn't attribute it to anything. I
just, I didn't know. I didn't understand that it was a Gullah Geechee cultural thing. I just
thought that's the way my family speaks. Until I actually started learning about the actual
culture of Gullah Geechee and realizing that my parents and grandparents probably didn't
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use the term or identify with Gullah Geechee because it was shunned. But now it's finally
starting to be celebrated, which is good because a lot of people grew up--especially in
Charleston and the Lowcountry area where it's highly concentrated, like going to educate
public school systems where they try to assimilate the language out of you. So the
culture's not only being assaulted as far as the land, because the land, a lot of Gullah
Geeche land is being seized by developers and gentrification and stuff. So you can't have
a culture of people who are displaced, constantly being displaced, but as well as like in
educational institutions, there's an assault on Gullah Geechee culture as well.
MP: I had a question earlier. Oh, did you also pick up photography and
filmmaking same place? Because you're a fantastic, fantastic filmmaker and
photographer.
JP: Thank you so much. I would say that I've always had an interest in images
because ever since I was a kid, back when BET was actually a good network and they
played like all the good Black films, I used to watch, you know, The Boys in the Hood
and Fridays and all these different films that had--Menace II Society--they had a
profound impact on me as a child. They used to come all the time, but every time they
came on, I would watch them. So I always had that connection, like dang, this is like--I
felt connected to it. The images and the stories that are being told. And I think like
subconsciously I didn't act on it as a child or as an adolescent. It wasn't until I went to
Sankofa because I thought movies just came out of thin air. Like I didn't, I didn't know. I
didn't have any idea of the process.
But when I went to Sankofa and I was around these filmmakers, photographers,
artists, visual artists, all different types of mediums of artists, Black artists that are telling
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the stories, I got to see the process and it demystified the process for me. Haile actually, I
think he invited me to--it was in Florida. We went to a site called Fort Negro, which was
right outside, west of Tallahassee, which is in what they call Apalachicola, Florida. And
the Fort Negro was a Black fort, one of a few Black forts that was in Florida during the
19th century. Florida used to be a Spanish colony, of course. And during that time, what
we call the Seminole Wars and the War of 1812 and all that stuff was really just like wars
of land acquisition and re-enslavement. And so a lot of Gullah Geechee enslaved people
would run, instead of running North to the supposedly northern underground railroad,
they would firstly run South and they would escape because at the time Georgia was
relatively--it wasn't a state, it was relatively an uninhabited and unpopulated besides the
Indigenous Americans.
So they would run from the Lowcountry South Carolina region to Florida, to St.
Augustine initially because St. Augustine had Fort Mose, which was a Black fort in St.
Augustine. So they would run South and then the Spanish, because of the Edict of 1693,
when the king chartered basically said that if you run to Florida and you convert to
Catholicism and you pledge to serve the Spanish crown against all these foreign
invasions, et cetera, et cetera, that they would become free. So essentially it's enslaved
people became mercenaries, I mean, if we want to be honest about what they were,
because Spanish would just play colonial politics with the British and the United States.
So the Black people became mercenaries in Florida, but although they were mercenaries,
they did have a certain amount of freedom and agency that came along with it because
the Spaniards really couldn't administratively tend to Florida that closely. So they got
largely, they were governing themselves almost. So you had a large Black population
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around St. Augustine and around Apalachicola Fort Negro area because they would
congregate around the forts because that's what the army was, the Black army.
So Fort Negro was one of the forts that I want to say, Andrew Jackson was
responsible for destroying. So Haile is doing a documentary film, which kind of traces
the history of the maroons in Florida and that was one of the locations that he invited me
to come along when he was doing the process. So I got to see the whole documentary
process from the back. And I was like, "Dang, this ain't even hard," it just demystified it!
I mean, it's hard work, but it's doable. Like anybody could do it if you commit yourself to
learning. So ever since then that gave me like the courage to actually pick up the camera
and be serious about it. And his son, Merawi Gerima, just last year, he released his debut
feature called "Residue," and just learning from him, him allowing me to just kind of be a
fly on the wall in that process as well. He invited me to the film fest, just talking to me
about the whole process. You know, he let me in with the whole process. We're like
really, really, really good friends now because of that. That's how I met Merawi actually
at that film location by Fort Negro with his dad. Ever since then, I've just been in that
world and I've been documenting a lot seriously in the camera a lot more seriously.
MP: So cool. It's really cool to be able to see that whole process. Would you say it
was at Howard that you started engaging in activist work or?
JP: Yeah, I would say 2015 is when--I would say my first political act was in
2015 and I was out there. The murder of Sandra Bland. And in Jacksonville we organized
a march around that. That was my first event that I ever organized and the first protest
I've ever been to is the one I organized. Well, one of the first ones I've been to was the
one I organized. And that was in 2015 so that was the year that I transferred into Howard.
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Once I got to Howard, I was involved as well. I was in the NAACP student chapter at
Howard, and funny story about that is--you know, Mills, you're lucky you get the inside
scoop on these things.
But so basically I was the Political Action Committee Chair for the NAACP
Student Chapter at Howard in DC, and the Howard Student Chapter worked very closely
with the NAACP National Chapter because of proximity, we were both in DC. We were
doing a lot of political work around the election that was Donald Trump's election. And
we were doing a lot of work around his appointment of Jeff Sessions, trying to get the
appointment overturned, which looking back, it's actually kind of funny because it was
kind of naive to even think that that would happen. But yeah, we were doing a lot of work
there. So we staged a sit-in and Jeff Sessions’ office in the US Senate building, we got
arrested, I got arrested with NAACP that time. So we went to jail for a day and then we
got out and then around the same time as a lot of this activity was going on, because there
was so much going on nationally, of course it affects students.
So there was also another organization that was doing work on campus, which
shall remain unnamed. And I was also part of that organization in a lot of the early stages.
And we would do things like we disrupted some formal events out of dissent, it was
nothing like malicious. It was political dissent. And essentially, the NAACP, their politics
didn't align with some of the more radical stuff that we were doing on campus. So, um,
I'm just going to say that I was forced to resign from the NAACP, but I continued the
activities on campus with the other organization. Yeah, so, I mean, that's--as well as I was
doing some community organizing with PACA up in DC, which is Pan-African
Community Action. So I was doing some work with them as well as that's when I got
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involved with doing work around Cuba solidarity and to end the economic blockade
against Cuba, to normalize travel relations between US and Cuba and to end the United
States occupation of Guantanamo Bay, which is in Eastern Cuba as well.
MP: And you were able to go to Cuba too.
JP: Yeah. So that was when I--2017, I believe is when I went to Cuba. So Howard
was, even before Cuba, Howard was the reason that I traveled out of the country for the
first time. I went to South Africa. Yeah, 2016. I went to South Africa on a trip, a student
trip, which changed my life. That's when I started documenting my trip, not really
intentionally documenting it, just taking pictures type of thing. But now that I look back
on it, it was actually documentation. I kind of organically--it's kind of like weird, like you
can intentionally do things and then you can accidentally do things and they turn out just
as good. And that's kind of how that went because I was just authentically documenting
it. So that kind of was a catalyst as well for my documenting things. But I went to South
Africa for two weeks. We got to visit Johannesburg, the townships, Alexandria township,
Soweto, where Nelson Mandela was from, his house. We visited Pretoria, which is one of
the capitals. Because I think if I remember correctly, South Africa has three capitals or
three administrative cities, Pretoria, Johannesburg, and Cape Town, and so we visited
Cape Town as well. And that was an amazing trip. We got to connect with a lot of
different people all over the continent.
Then I went to Haiti, 2017 for spring break with Howard as well, student trip.
That was amazing. Life-changing. We stayed there for a week. We stayed right outside of
Port-au-Prince, which is the capital, in a small city that escapes my brain right now. But
anyways, we stayed there and it was amazing because we stayed at sort of this
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compound, which was right in the community. So we got to interact with community
folks. We would help them, we were helping them build things, we were helping them
cook and clean and everything. So that was cool. We went to the Citadellle in Haiti,
which is, if I remember correctly, one of the largest fortresses in the world. It's in CapHaïtien and it's built at the top of a mountain. To this day, I don't think historians really
know exactly how Black folks in Haiti constructed this ginormous castle on the top of the
mountain. But that was like ground zero for like Haitian resistance whenever they got
free and the United States, Spain, and the French were trying to reconquer them. So I got
to go there and that was like a really good experience because Haiti, for Black people, it's
like really important because they were the first nation to rebel against slavery,
successfully rebel against and overthrow slavery. So Haiti has a huge symbolic meaning
to a lot of the work we do.
MP: That's great. Tell me a little bit about either the community work or just the
work you're doing after college.
JP: So in 2017 in Jacksonville--after I graduated Howard in 2017? Maybe 2018.
MP: Who knows.
JP: Who knows.
MP: Time.
JP: A few years ago. I graduated from Howard I think 2018, 2017 actually and I
came back to Jacksonville because I taught for two years. During that time, me
and some other friends, colleagues, and peers co-founded a group called the
Jacksonville Community Action Committee. What that was is basically a group
that, it was a Black-led grassroots organization and what we really were focusing
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on is what we call police crimes, which is just what it sounds like: crimes that
police commit against civilians. The way the law and language is set up those two
terms aren't usually put together. Police, crime. But we like to say police crime to
psychologically let people know that just because police quote unquote enforce
the law doesn't mean that they can't break the law and doesn't mean that they don't
commit crimes as well.
A lot of our work started off centering victims and survivors of police
brutality and other racialized crimes. And it just grew from there. From 2017 to
now, the Jacksonville Community Action Committee, I would say probably one
of the national or regional leader for the movement, I would say. We had a lot of
success organizing in Jacksonville and I moved to Charleston because I came here
for school for other family endeavors. The issues are basically the same
everywhere. They're the same here. So we decided to co-found a similar group
here that basically has the same mission, which is the Lowcountry Action
Committee, hence the similar names. We're basically doing the same thing, but
we've been doing a lot of mutual aid as outreach so we do a lot of work on the
East Side.
We're trying to expand, but right now we're concentrating mostly on the
East Side and fighting for a concept we call, which was introduced in like '69 by
the Black Panther Party called community control of the police. And that's what
they're struggling for in Jacksonville, all across the nation really. Chicago,
Minneapolis, Milwaukee, New York, DC, Tampa, Tallahassee, Jacksonville,
Charleston, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Utah, LA. So it is a movement, all over. We
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decided to--I don't want to say bring that to Charleston because that was already
happening. Like that movement was already here in Charleston, but we decided to
start an organization and contribute to that movement. So that's, that's kinda how
we got here and we got our organization started here in Charleston because of
those reasons.
MP: Do you want to talk a little bit more, describe a little more, some of
the other groups or some of the movement that was already here in Charleston
before you got here?
JP: Yeah. When I got here in 2019, Charleston was in a very difficult
place. Because since 2015, obviously there has been so many tragedies from the
Emanuel Massacre that happened at Emanuel AME to Walter Scott case to other
hate crimes and racism and police brutality and the whole nine yards. So there
was a lot of that. There was a lot of energy in Charleston since 2015, but a leader
of the movement was murdered, Muhiyidin El Amin Moye [Muhiyidin D’Baha],
he was murdered in New Orleans. He was such a central part of the movement,
what was happening in Charleston. He had his hands in everything and he was an
advisor for so many other organizations and movement leaders. And when he was
murdered, that kind of just punched Charleston in the gut. There was a lot of
confusion. There was a lot of people going in a lot of different directions. There
wasn't much communication or cohesion. And on top of that, we had the national
uprisings.
So I know it was a lot going on in Charleston and it was so many people in so
many places doing so many things. We understood, as our organization, that history goes
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in waves. There are moments like this, that everybody is politically aware or politically
heightened because of what's going on nationally so like you have a lot of energy. And
we knew that that doesn't last forever, those are only moments. So we didn't really, as an
organization, what we call LAC, Lowcountry Action Committee, we didn't want to just
insert ourselves like that. We opted to kind of build our organization, our infrastructure so
that we could do tangible things, sustainable and tangible things like mutual aid and
outreach so that we can continue to start pushing these political agendas, but it won't be
coming out of a place, like thin air. Because you have to get to know your community.
You can't just start making demands and nobody knows who you are, and then you're
trying to speak on behalf of people. And we don't speak on behalf of people. We try to
organize people to speak in their own interests, we try to give them the tools to do that.
And food is a weapon. People use food to starve people. If you can't, if you have
to search for your next meal, then you're not really going to be thinking about the next
political move because your basic level of needs are not being met. So we decided to try
to build relationships with our community by trying to meet those very, very basic needs,
which is food and accessibility to certain things like the vaccine, which we've organized
around as well. All those different disparities, because we use the Avery disparities report
to formulate a lot of our programs. There's so many racial disparities in Charleston and
we just decided to go with, start with food. And that was our vehicle to start building our
organization and community so that when we really gear up and start demanding those
things like community control of the police and the people's budget and things like that,
that we will have support from the community that would benefit the most from those
types of initiatives.
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MP: I have a couple of questions. I think I should have asked you this much
earlier, just in your own words to define mutual aid and what that means to you and what
that looks like. Kind of broad.
JP: No, it's fine. So to us, mutual aid, it's a concept and a practice that has a long
history. We call it mutual aid today but to us mutual aid is just how we've survived for
the last four hundred years here. People like to associate giving food with charity and
we're not a charitable organization and we don't do charity. We think that food is a human
right. So we organize our communities to be able to feed them and sustain themselves. So
with our mutual aid programs, it's not like us just handing out food on the street to
random people. These are people that we've built relationships with through other
organizations, grassroots organizations in the city, like ECDC, which is on the East Side
down the street from here, Eastside Community Development Corporation, which is a
staple on the East Side. And we partnered with them to do our mutual aid efforts, so Ms.
Latonya Gamble is like central in the East Side. Everybody knows her, she's a titan over
here. So we partnered with her and she has access to a lot of the community members that
we serve so they trust her and that's how we put how we got our food program going.
We supply the food and everything is done through volunteer efforts. We assemble the
food; we purchase the food through donations and support. We assemble it, usually at the
Avery Research Center, we assemble our bags and then we take those bags to the East
Side ECDC office, and that's where people come and pick them up. So it's not, I mean,
yes, of course random people are welcome, but these aren't random people that we're
serving. These are people that are in community with us and in other organizations. So
mutual aid, we like to think of it as like solidarity, more so than like a charitable act. We
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don't even like to trick ourselves into thinking that we can solve hunger or we can solve-like we can't solve. We don't have billions of dollars. Until we have an entirely different
economic system, that's really the only way to solve these issues. But we understand, like
we learn from the Black Panther Party, that what they call survival pending revolution.
Like you have to feed people, you have to clothe people, you have to educate people,
people have to sustain themselves so that they can fight for their own rights. And that's
kinda where we are in our take on mutual aid and what it means to our organization.
MP: So food is very central at the moment, the bags that y'all are assembling. I
think I saw somewhere on trolling through the website, you've included other stuff too?
And you had a, yesterday, right? You had a distribution yesterday? What else do y'all-JP: Yesterday, yup, on Saturday. Yesterday. Usually, a normal bag would consist
of leafy greens and vegetables from Fields Farm on Johns Island, which is one of the only
Black-operated farms left in the Lowcountry. So we get our leafy greens and our
vegetables and produce from Fields Farm. So usually they have some greens in the bag,
as well as hardy staples, things that can get you through the week: rice, beans, pasta,
bread, and little things like if you have kids or like gotta go to work and eat like NutriGrain bars, things like that. That's usually what our bags consist of.
But we also started doing--we have a month-long program events that we're doing for
next month. And one of it includes an heirs property workshop on the East Side, because
most these houses--East Side is a Black neighborhood, historically Black neighborhood,
and a lot of the houses here, they're heirs property, which means that they're collectively
owned by the entire family. They usually have been purchased a long time ago by
grandparents or great-grandparents and usually they don't have a clear title or clear deed
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to the property. So then once the person who purchased the property, once they are
deceased, the property then automatically defaults to being heirs property, which means it
belongs equally to all the kids unless otherwise stated in a deed or anything. But as
default, it becomes collectively owned by all the kids, which are the heirs of the property,
hence the heirs property name.
But heirs property is like, it's a gift and a curse because in some instances, heirs property
has made it more difficult for members to sell their property. It has historically forced
families to keep the land and to live on the land. But it's also a curse because it's a legal
and logistical headache. If you do want to like build on it or there might be intra-familial
conflicts or whatever, and then one person can force to sell, they can make the property
or the state, I think the courts would force the property to be sold. So there's a lot of
loopholes and it's not a very--it's a double-edged sword. But I would say it's more bad
than good because it's allowed so many people to lose their property simply because they
couldn't afford the taxes, it's a logistical nightmare to pay the taxes, so many family
members own it that you become lost in the sauce, you don't know what's what, and
conflicts happen. And then that's prime, conflicts are prime for people coming in and
forcing you to sell, or they'll throw some money at you. And historically, of course, we've
been strapped for money, so people will sell their property. And you know, it sucks.
That's what we've been dealing with on Sol Legare Island. Sol Legare Island was
almost completely Black-owned at one point, all farmers and fishermen, but now you see
property signs going up and there'll be sold, they're sold in days. People make offers,
people ride through Sol Legare every day, looking for those property signs to go up. So
that's what we're battling right now. Most people think of heirs property, they think of
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rural land because that's what most people associate Gullah Geechee people with is rural
country. But we have to understand the East Side, which is urban, historically has been
urban, they also have heirs property and they're also Gullah Geechee they also are facing
the same thing.
MP: Yeah, those targets for gentrification, it feels like it's linked right there.
How'd y'all get involved with East Side specifically?
JP: I got to introduced to Ms. Latonya [Gamble] at a Thanksgiving food drive at
Martin Park. I'm sorry, not Martin Park, it was actually Philip Simmons Park. Wait. I
think it was Martin Park. I forgot.
MP: With the pool?
JP: No, it was definitely Philip Simmons Park. Yeah, Philip Simmons Park. So I
got involved--actually, Marcus introduced me to Ms. Latonya and I think from that
moment on, we knew that we had a food program that we were trying to start, and we
knew that it would not have been effective if we just posted up on--because we did that at
first. Our first food drive, our very first food drive was on America Street right across
from East Side Soul Food right down the street from here. And we just posted up on the
sidewalk at the corner of America Street and we gave out bags of food and literature to
people, random at that time, random people.
It wasn't until one of the elders, in a very principled way, criticized us and basically said
that we could be a lot more effective if we partnered with such and such, which happened
to turn into ECDC [Eastside Community Development Corporation]. We didn't exactly
know who at the time, but it all makes sense with ECDC because they were only a few
blocks down. So the next drive, we came back as an organization and we thought it over
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and thought about how to improve and how to be more effective and to take that
community feedback. So then we were like, okay, would it be a good idea to try to
partner with ECDC? Because they already did a food program where they would take hot
meals to some of the elders that may not be able to get out or because of COVID they
didn't want to come out. So they were doing food deliveries and things like that because
that's the nature of their organization. That's how they support the East Side as well as a
lot of other different ways, but that's one of the ways. And we were like, "Well, how
about next time we partner up and y'all have hot food and we can bring the groceries and
then as you're getting the hot food, you got a bag of groceries to go with it." And Ms.
Latonya was like, "Yeah, that sounds great," and we've been doing it every month ever
since. And we've upped our production. I think our first drive we gave out about fifty
bags and I think now we're hitting about a hundred bags every month. So yeah, we've
upped our operation.
MP: Wow, that's amazing. So you work with ECDC. Do you work a lot with any
other organizations, whether organizations like that or other mutual aid groups or
activists, whether they're individuals or groups?
JP: We're also a founding members of the People's Budget Coalition, which is a
coalition between several grassroots organizations here in the Lowcountry, which
includes Black Lives Matter Charleston, ACLU, there's some other people whose names
are escaping me right now.
MP: I've got the list somewhere, I've got you.
JP: There's a lot of people in the coalition. So we're founding members of the
coalition--DSA and some other folks--and we decided to come together because we were
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trying to make sense of this huge political moment that we just had. And like I said
before, we knew that it would pass and that people would go back to normal life, as
normal as you want to say it is right now. But we knew that either way, that moment
would pass and we didn't want the moment to happen then it pass and then nothing came
of it. So we decided to formulate this coalition and this is how we decided that we were
going to organize for people's budget through that coalition. Basically people's budget is-we're still formulating the exact demand of what it would be, but in general, it's being
introduced around the nation in different cities.
And the general idea of it is that we want to take money from the police budget,
which across the whole nation is the most funded department in most cities I would
argue. Basically every city, the police department is going to be the most funded
department there is. And we thought that it wasn't fair that police basically--CPD for
instance, gets about 26 percent of the whole budget, yet you're giving like one percent of
the budget to important things that actually affect people's lives and improve quality of
life. And we thought that that was just an equitable way to have the budget. And it
ignores the racist history of policing, especially in Charleston, the slavery capital of
North America, where modern day police departments derived from the slave catchers
that were here. We thought that it was just a racist way to deal with social issues, the very
real social issues that are in the Black community. We feel that the police can't solve
those issues and they never have and they never intended to, historically. So why should
they get a fourth of the budget and why should they be the ones who society relies upon
to quote unquote solve crime and the social issues when crime, quote unquote crime, and
the social issues are essentially a by-product of the fact that these communities are being
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starved and they don't have any resources and you're sending all our resources to the
police department.
The city at the same time, it creates the disparities and then it tries to solve the
disparities that it created through a violent institution. So we feel that especially when
people have guns, that they should be under the direct control of the people who live in
the communities which they patrol, like they're on a tour of duty because they don't even
live in the communities that they patrol. We know that community control is the next
logical step toward abolition or whatever it is that one believes. But the first step is to
actually have control over the institution, and that institution right now, I think the most
pressing institution to have control over, especially for Black and poor people, working
people, is police departments.
MP: Yeah, that's incredible. That essentially sums up my entire thesis, makes it
easy.
JP: Really?
MP: Yeah, that's great! I guess maybe if you could talk a little bit, maybe some of
your observations when you've been working in the East Side. Have you seen any
interactions between the police and the community? Have you seen any instances of that?
JP: Well, besides the fact that it's heavily policed.
MP: Mhm, like every couple of minutes.
JP: Every few minutes, you see patrols patrolling the East Side and harassing.
Culturally, there's obviously a difference between how Black people live and how white
people live. Whether people want to recognize this or acknowledge this is up to them, but
just because we share the same land mass for five hundred years, doesn't mean that we
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share the same culture for five hundred years. We have separate routes of development
for obvious reasons because of the relationship that Black people had to the land and to
white people as captives and as enslaved people. So while we may have cooked the food
that white people ate and did their laundry and grew their cotton, we didn't necessarily
share a culture. That's still an issue with policing because policing is from the perspective
of white patriarchal, racist society. Some of the things that we do as Black people are
deemed criminal when in fact they're not criminal, they're just the way that we live. Like
what they call loitering is Black people, their idea of private property is not the same. We
view property very publicly so you will see large congregations of people hanging out
because that's just what we do. But the police and society criminalizes that because it
goes, all this goes back to slavery. Black people couldn't congregate in groups larger than
what? Three or four people? Especially in Charleston.
MP: Especially in the East Side.
JP: Especially in the East Side. So all of this ties back to a greater history. And the
average person might not notice the very subtle things like that in society with policing,
they think that, "Oh, police are coming to clean up the neighborhood and more police, oh
yeah, that's going to solve crime and fight crime," when in reality it's more police ever.
Police are more funded than they've ever been in history yet crime still exists. So it's like,
obviously, what is that? When you try to do the same thing over and over again, what is
that called? Insanity? They're doing the same, the city isn't even creative, not even just
Charleston, this is just in general, like cities across the nation, they're not creative when it
comes to trying to solve the issues. They just throw money at the police and think that's
going to make the things disappear, the things that they don't like disappear, rather than
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throwing money at job training programs, throwing money at housing programs,
throwing money at educational programs, throwing money at building parks, recreation,
whatever, after school, juvenile kid programs, whatever. Instead of throwing money at
that, they throw money at the police. And they expect the police to solve mental health
crises. When people are having breakdowns, they expect the police to solve everything;
every societal issue, they expect police to solve. When in reality, they're not equipped to
do that. They never were. They never intended to be equipped to do that. And it's time for
the United States to reckon with that, that history in our reality.
MP: I think it's great that you're bringing up this really important distinction
between crime and perceptions of crime and how you're saying there's these inherently
different cultural experiences that white Americans and Black Americans have, which we
see in policing, but I feel like we're also seeing--because of gentrification, more and more
often, and some tensions there in the East Side, just the level of gentrification that's
happening. Have you seen some of those same cultural tensions, I guess you could call it,
here?
JP: Yeah, like where I'm from, on Sol Legare Island for instance, one of my
cousins told me that a white family moved in next to them on some property that that was
sold. It was formerly Black property and was sold to some white people. And those
people had like a pirate flag in their yard. And it's just like these types of nuances. Like
you know the history of--I mean, you might not know the history of Sol Legare, but you
know this is a Black community. It's not rocket science, it's not rocket science. But you
do these small things, like a pirate flag in the Black community, knowing the connotation
that sets. My cousin basically said they've confronted them several times and I think
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they've taken the pirate flag down now, but those type of what the young folks call the
day, microaggressions, those type of things, that's going to happen when you have this
cultural collision and you have people that come in and they're not used to living as
equals with people. They're used to coming in and bogarting their way.
For instance, on Sol Legare where Mosquito Beach is, which was a historic Black
beach on Sol Legare, my uncle told me that it was a white woman who lives on Sol
Legare trying so desperately to get Mosquito Beach shut down so that they can buy the
property. They petitioned the city, they brought this thick file of records to the judge from
like 1950 of like all the things that have happened, trying to get it shut down so that they
can come through and purchase our property. So things like that, like if you're not in the
know, you're not going to know. It's almost shadow work being done because they do it
behind closed doors. And luckily on Sol Legare, Mosquito Beach Association is very
strong and I highly doubt that would ever happen in my lifetime because that's how
dedicated they are to preserving Mosquito Beach, which has just been deemed a historic
site. So I highly doubt that would happen, but it just shows you to the extent that the
people will go to do that.
And also at the end of Sol Legare, there's a boat landing where a lot of white
people do live. I would say that's the white section of Sol Legare, all the way at the end
near the Stono River. There's like Trump flags and blue lives matter flags. It's like, you
know you're in a Black community, you can see what's going on nationally, and you
choose to antagonize with these types of symbolism. I spoke to some of my family
members and they don't have an issue with living with white people. It's if you're coming
to live with us and you're participating our community as an equal, as a community
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member, and not as a colonizer, as somebody who's coming to try to take over. That's the
crux of the issue. She told me that story, she was like, it's only like one white person on
Sol Legare that actually attends the programs and attempts to be a part of the community.
But everyone else, they view themselves as a separate aggregate of Sol Legare and
they've even like--another example on Sol Legare: there was no fences or gated
communities, but they purchased some land and they carved out a little space and built a
gated community.
MP: They're just completely changing-JP: Completely changed the landscape. And they fought hard because they
didn't want gated communities in Sol Legare because gated community, that's
isolation. You're isolating yourself at that point. Like, why don't you want to live
with the people? They buy land, historical routes that people on Sol Legare took,
roads that have been paved and things like that since way before my grandparents
or great-grandparents. They'll buy the property and they'll put a gate on the road
so now we can't access the roads that we have historically accessed because they
bought a property and they privatized it in that way. So it's things like that, where
people think that gentrification, it's like, "Oh, it's a race issue. They don't want to
live with white people, blah, blah, blah." But it's really that we know what comes
when we see an influx of white, especially middle class white, we know what's
going to happen. History has told us, we've seen it with our own eyes. So those
are the types of things, those types of aggressions that come with gentrification.
MP: Like you're saying, colonialism. Not living with, but living on top of
almost. I feel like that's pretty evident in the East Side too. Fences go up here a
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lot, like on the daily. And it does feel like, you might be walking on the sidewalk
with someone, but you're not walking with them at all. Think you see that here a
lot too. I was going somewhere with that, I'm sorry.
JP: You're fine.
MP: Oh gosh. I completely forgot where my train of thought was.
JP: The good thing about video recording is you can edit.
MP: Yeah, that's fantastic. we should switch to video. I guess we've talked
about police, we've talked about gentrification. How have you seen those two
overlap? Whether here, elsewhere, where you grow up, on Sol Legare? In DC
even?
JP: DC--oh my god. I don't even want to talk about DC.
MP: No, yeah, you don't-JP: It's breakneck speed. Like Charleston is actually on--I feel like
Charleston is now probably on pace with the rapid speed that it's being gentrified.
But gentrification, the police, they go hand in hand because just like colonialism
where you need when you have settlers coming in, you have to have a military
force to secure the settlers. And these are the correlations. Gentrification is not
simply white people or rich people or middle-class people moving to poor
locations. It's poor or urban or nonwhite locations. They are coming and they are
coming as agents of white supremacy half the time. Because they know that--it
almost becomes a frontier. They think of themselves as like pioneers or frontier
people because they penetrated this neighborhood that everybody's scared to go to
cause it's Black--this is their thinking.
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Like, you know, no, they're pioneer--"I'm a pioneer. I came here and I
bought my house for $10,000 and I built it up and I'm the only white person on
my block. And a year later it's five of us. Two years later, the whole block is
gone. And now we're demanding a Starbucks where Mr. Such and Such has had
his corner store, his mom's or grandma's corner store for sixty years. We want to
Starbucks. So we're going to try to get the city to rezone this and turn it into a
Starbucks," which is an issue that's happening on the East Side, which is why I
alluded to that. So things like that, where you come in and they want to make the
East Side--they want to make America Street, I think America and Columbus,
they want to make that the gateway to the East Side is what I've been hearing.
Word on the street is that's what gentrifiers want. So they want this to become a
gateway to the East Side. And of course, with every single gentrification,
gentrified community, their Starbucks is the, that's like the flag post. That's the
flag post, you know? So they wanted a Starbucks over here.
MP: On America, Columbus?
JP: Word on the street.
MP: Ahh, oh no!
JP: I can't confirm nor deny, but that's the word on the street.
MP: That's information though, wow.
JP: So imagine a Starbucks smack dab in the middle of, the heart of the
East Side. That doesn't even add up.
MP: So just changing the social and the physical fabric completely.
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JP: I mean, and this probably sounds ridiculous, but growing up, Starbucks is not
an inviting location for Black people. Like I didn't start going to Starbucks until I went to
college. But most don't go to Starbucks because it's always been a barrier. No offense to
Starbucks, but that's just how it's been seen. And the fact that Starbucks kind of
represents that, it's kind of collectively understood that once you see the Starbucks go up,
you already know what's about to happen. It's almost like a church. Back during
colonialism, Starbucks is almost like a church. Like when you see that church go up, this
is a brick and mortar, this is a space of organization, and Starbucks is like literally the
new church when it comes to colonialism and gentrification.
MP: That's exactly right. That's a good comparison. But it's insane that gentrifiers,
that invaders are demanding a Starbucks when the East Side is still a food desert, when
there's no access to-JP: No grocery stores.
MP: Yeah, no grocery store, no way to get like healthy, non-preservative food.
JP: Corner store food that they keep at the corner store.
MP: I mean, it's food. It's ramen. I go to the corner store.
JP: Yeah. And I've lived that life. It sucks because you can feel the difference,
eating a healthy meal versus eating the food from a corner store, like chips and ramen.
You can feel the difference. People who survive off that type of food, it has an effect on
your health and it has an effect on your psyche and it has an effect on how you perform in
school. And it has an effect on all this stuff. It's all linked to food and access to food. And
once this community becomes--hopefully it doesn't--but once it does become more white,
of course there's going to be a grocery store. There's going to be a Whole Foods or
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whatever, probably it's some abandoned building that they're going to turn it into some
type of Fresh Foods. And that's what it is. You see that the city and corporations in
America, they're able to do it, it's just they only do it for a certain people. And it takes
certain people to move out for them to bring in stuff that people need to survive.
Gentrification, that heightens, I mean, literally, you see that in real time when you see
gentrification happening in neighborhoods that have been food deserts for decades. But
then once a certain population gets there, now it becomes an oasis with abundance or
whatever.
MP: The Lowcountry Action Committee, have y'all take any steps or thought, put
words on paper about trying to mitigate or maybe fight gentrification here? That's a huge
beast to tackle.
JP: Yeah, exactly. So it's like a lot of moving parts because to be honest,
Charleston is run by developers. The developers are running the city. They do what they
want. They're developing on Johns Island and developing on James Island, Downtown.
North Charleston even is starting to become these hubs of development. We have an heirs
property clinic on May 13th that's going to be a free clinic for people on the East Side
who have heirs property to come there and talk to lawyers about how to preserve their
property and how to--because they've been getting a lot of shady pieces of mail. People
know that, especially with Black people, when it comes to owning a house, that's such a
scary experience because we're so used to it being taken away. So they'll send ambiguous
letters to homeowners.
Most of them are elderly and elderly people, when it comes to bills and mail, they
take that seriously. So they see a piece of mail come and it's discussing their property.
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And they write it in a very ambiguous, mischievous way that the owners may think that
there is some type of financial, they might be behind on our house or something. So they
offer you money to like, you know, you're going to lose the house anyway way type of
thing. They might not explicitly say it, but it's implied through the language. So that's
how they get a lot of people to sell their houses, that's one of the tactics that they use. The
workshop is just hopefully to provide some education around that and ways for the
community to combat that and to continue to keep their property by whatever means they
can.
MP: That's great. It sounds like a really valuable--and these are all volunteers
helping out?
JP: Yeah. So this is from, I think it's called the Center for Heirs Property, which is
over on Sam Rittenberg in West Ashley. It's an event hosted by the Lowcountry Action
Committee in partnership with the Avery Research Center, the Center for Heirs Property,
and ECDC. And that's on May 30th, but it's also going to be reoccurring. So we're
hopefully trying to bring--like this one's for the East Side. Hopefully we can do
something over Sol Legare area, North Charleston, on the islands as well. So hopefully
this becomes a consistent type of program.
MP: And are all these other places, places y'all want to expand?
JP: Yeah. Essentially we want to definitely--see Charleston, or I should say
Charleston County or the Charleston area is like a logistical nightmare when it comes to
municipalities. Because you have Charleston County and then you have the city of
Charleston proper, and then you have North Charleston and then you have West Ashley
and then you have Folly Beach, the town of James Island, Johns Island, you have Mount
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Pleasant. So all of these different municipalities have their own police departments, or
most of them do, as under the jurisdiction of Charleston County Sheriff Department, as
well as obviously people may live in North Charleston, but they work downtown or vice
versa or with the islands as well. So like everybody in Charleston is connected, but you
have these separate municipalities. So if you're trying to run a campaign or do certain
things or target a certain legislation or community, it becomes very hard because it's been
carved up, Charleston has been carved up in such a complex way.
I say that to say, yes, we want to expand. But right now we're really trying to
focus on Charleston because we feel like Charleston obviously is the economic center,
political and economic center of the whole county in general. So if you can build a
movement in Charleston that addresses these issues, then it can easily be replicated in
North Charleston. Or vice versa! We never know. I hate to go full history nerd, but they
thought that the first communist revolution was going to happen in an industrial center in
Europe, like Germany or England, but it happened in Russia. Because Russia was almost
basically an agrarian society. So I say that to say, we may think that Charleston is it, but
it might be North Charleston. So, I mean, we don't know, but we chose Charleston
because it's the most visible, it has the largest budget and, historically it's the economic
center here. We feel like if the movement is built here, then it's definitely going to grow
to surrounding areas and we're going to be able to collaborate with people and make it
happen that way versus trying to-- because issues, when you try to--there's a saying that
goes like, if you chase two rabbits, you'll get none. You can't do it all at once. It's so hard
for activists to commit to a certain issue because we want to do it all, but you just simply
can't, that's not possible. So we've decided as of now that we're going to--I mean,
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obviously we're going to be in community, collaborate with anybody, North Charleston,
especially North Charleston because we're already a community with North Charleston.
A lot of our people live in North Charleston, members as well. But as far as politically,
we're really trying to focus on the city of Charleston to make some headway and then we
can build those relationships with those other organizations that's doing the work in the
other areas of the Charleston area.
MP: I feel like there's so many different groups too, so that's fantastic. How many
people are working for Lowcountry Action Committee right now?
JP: We have like core members; I would say it's about eight to ten core members.
And we also have volunteers and partners and collaborators. But as far as Lowcountry
Action Committee, it's about eight to ten people, dedicated, committed people that make
that organization work.
MP: Y'all do so much with so few people.
JP: I know. It's like never-ending.
MP: Yeah. Well, on that note, I don't want to take up any more of your time.
JP: Oh no!
MP: I wanna ask, I guess what you envision for the East Side, for your group, for
Charleston, for the Lowcountry. Positive or negative.
JP: Well, if I'm being optimistic, I would envision--Charleston, obviously it's
symbolic for so many things because it was ground zero for enslavement in North
America. I feel like if Charleston can, if we can build a movement in Charleston that
really addresses the root causes of the plight of so many people, be it Black people, be it
working-class people, then that could be duplicated almost anywhere. Especially in the
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South. Hopefully, I feel pretty optimistic about us building a unified movement in that
sense, that could really take the, which is almost like a tyrannical amount of power from
the police department and the city, and redistribute it into the hands of people in the
communities that are most affected. And, in doing that, I feel like Charleston has to really
address the issue of slavery because it's so prominent in their history and everything in
the city and the surrounding area is a by-product of slavery and colonialism, whether it be
Indigenous Americans that lived here before Europeans arrived and before Africans were
enslaved here, or whether it be the era where Africans were enslaved and whether it be
after that, during Jim Crow, Reconstruction, and to the current day.
You know, these issues have just been simmering for decades and hundreds of
years. And I feel like if Charleston can make that breakthrough and there's a successful
campaign for people's budget and community control and just a complete restructuring of
not only Charleston, but the United States, that's my optimistic outcome. Who knows
when that'll happen, hopefully it's in my lifetime, who knows. But more realistically, I
feel like we have a big battle ahead of us when it comes to these types of things. Because
the city, the structures, the power right now, they have so much money and power and
influence that the things that we have to organize and put so much effort into do, to
accomplish, such as a food drive once a month, they have the money and resources to
change the narrative, to co-opt a lot of work that's been done. They have the power to try
to stop the work even, if it gets to a point where it's becoming too much of a nuisance to
the image of the city, as a tourist, as a Confederate Disneyland. They just have so much
money and resources and power and I feel like Charleston community is definitely a
�35
Joshua Parks
community that's been fighting since its existence of being here: enslaved people and
their descendants.
But people are tired. When you fight for four hundred years, you get beat down
and you can tell, like some people are just--there's some sentiment where it's just like
some people just go along to get along type of thing where they're just tired, you know?
But you got some people who are still willing to fight. So, how do you make contact with
those people that, and channel that in the most productive way. And I think that we've
been doing that through our organization, through programs. If we continue to do that, I
feel like it's a very long, arduous task and struggle, but I do think that it is possible
because I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't believe that there was a possibility of winning, I
would be kind of insane to be doing this. Because it's like why would you even do it if
you didn't think it was possible? So I can't say that I don't think it's possible because that
would mean that I don't believe that it's possible to change our conditions. And that
would mean that I am a defeatist. That means I'm defeated and I think that that would be
me agreeing to history, a whole history of racism that said that this is the way it is
because you're inferior versus it doesn't have to be this way. People have the ability to
change it. So yeah, that that's my optimistic and my realistic outcomes, or expected
outcomes.
MP: Well, I'm so excited to see what you, as an individual, keep doing and what
you keep doing with all the work that you're engaged with, but unless you have any final
thoughts, feelings?
JP: I'm happy that, you know, I appreciate you for doing this oral history
interview. I think that the more we work, the more the message could be spread around,
�36
Joshua Parks
and the more people that are interested in getting involved, I think the better. So I'm
always willing to talk to anybody about ideas and about our vision and trying to
incorporate as many people as possible to make that happen. So, yeah, thank you for the
interview and if you need anything just let me know.
MP: Yeah, thanks, Joshua! I'm going to Let's figure it out. Um, technology is
hard. Oh, no.
End of recording.
Transcription by Mills Pennebaker
MLL 7/29/21
�
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Oral Histories
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
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Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Mills Pennebaker
Interviewee
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Joshua Parks
Location
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Charleston, South Carolina
Duration
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74 minutes
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Oral History of Joshua Parks, interviewed by Mills Pennebaker, 18 April 2021
Subject
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African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Political participation--United States
Black lives matter movement
Description
An account of the resource
Joshua Parks was born in Philadelphia, PA, and grew up in Jacksonville, FL. He attended Howard University in Washington, DC, and worked at the Sankofa Bookstore owned by filmmakers Haile Gerina and Shirikiana Aina Gerina. <br /><br />While in college, he was the chair of the NAACP college chapter and engaged in community organizing with PACA (Pan-African Community Action). Traveling to Cuba, Haiti, and South Africa contributed significantly to his political education. <br /><br />After graduation, he returned to Florida and worked as a teacher for two years. In 2019, he moved to Charleston, SC, to attend graduate school. He became involved in local organizing and was one of the founding members of the Lowcountry Action Committee. He reflects about the work Lowcountry Action Committee has done in collaboration with Eastside Community Development Corporation, focusing on mutual aid, food distribution, and education. The Lowcountry Action Committee is also among the founding organization of the People's Budget Coalition and frequently partners with the Center for Heirs Property in educational programs for community members affected by development and gentrification.
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
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The Citadel Archives and Museum
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2021-04-18
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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English
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Text
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Charleston (S. C.)
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1656
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PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT– JOHN WRIGHT
Interviewee: JOHN WRIGHT
Interviewer: TIMOTHY ST. PIERRE
Interview Date: April 14, 2021
Location: Charleston SC by Zoom
Length: 51 minutes
TIMOTHY ST. PIERRE: Mr. Wright, do you consent to being recorded for this
oral history interview?
JOHN WRIGHT: Yes.
TS: All right. Uh, my name is Timothy St. Pierre. I am conducting this interview
for the Charleston Oral History Project with the Citadel. It is 5:06 PM, April 14th, 2021.
Mr. Wright, can you state your name and any title or address you prefer?
JW: My name is John F. Wright. I'm retired US Army. I am president of the
African American Historic Settlement Community Commission Incorporated.
TS: Okay. So how we'll start. This is, I'm going to ask you some more questions
about yourself and then we'll expand to bigger and better-- bigger questions like the
settlement communities, and then the other things that we're doing with our society today.
So could you tell me about how your family came to this area?
JW: It's believed that, as I know of in my family originated in, the Phillips
community, right after Reconstruction, but as, as noted, I mean, 1619 is when our
ancestors really arrived here. So, as far as family history and limits, I'm by no means a
historian, more of an advocate for those that are less able-- don't have the ability to
�John Wright
advocate for themselves. But from the historical standpoint, I, you know, I'd say it was
1619 is when our ancestors originally arrived. Now, as far as areas here in Mount
Pleasant, Charleston, folk communities, were a family, when my father's, my mother's
family, I'm sorry, my grandfather's family originated in the Phillips community, but it
was the Hamlin community where my mom is from. So two settlement communities,
north end.
TS: So the AAFC website, it, mentions the Gullah community as the center of its
attentions, would you consider yourself part of the Gullah community?
JW: That is the culture, Gullah-Geechee culture here in the, in the Lowcountry.
And as I know, from what I've been told that-- that derived from the language and culture
came from, from West Africa. And, when they arrived, it was a means of authenticating,
you know, a means of identifying the problem based on the [00:02:57] the dialect, all
those customs came along with them.
TS: Okay. So growing up in, did you grow up in the Mount Pleasant community
yourself, or did you say-JW: I grew up in Mount Pleasant.
TS: All right. And did you experience that type of, unique Gullah culture as you
were growing up? Did it affect you living in that type of community?
JW: Oh, yeah. By all means, you know, the things that, the things that they did-it's amazing as the things that they did as a kid, the, the generation before me, we still do
today. Whether it's how they gathered to socialize, what are the foods they eat, those
same foods that I can remember being in, on demand then they're on demand today. And
�John Wright
so, yes, the cultural tradition, then nothing more than just repeating itself after year after
year.
TS: What were some of the social activities or foods that you mentioned that-- it's
worth exploring this for our listeners.
JW: Certainly. Foods would be, would be okra, okra and shrimp. Um, that's a big
deal for me. I loved it. And not only is that a big deal, but it's also the, the seafood.
Seafood is a major part of social life. For example crabs, the blue crabs. Crabs was then,
and is now today, a social opportunity. It was called a crab crack and where a hundred,
well, not a hundred, but, you know, however many people there standing around a table
and they eat these blue crabs after they've been boiled for a little while. And that was a
big, big tradition. And it's still a part of who we are today. You know, unique. I, I spent
29 years away from home, traveling and serving the country. And when I got back-- I left
at 17-- so when I got back 29 years later, I didn't think that the Crab Crack would still
exist or [oyster licks] where they roast these oysters and everybody's standing around
and, and in pop these shells, and that's festive and not only festive, but it's a big means of
socializing. And, so, you know, little things such as, such as okra and, our seafood, you
know, those are, those are primarily customs that I saw as a kid that still exist today.
TS: Okay. I appreciate that. You said you left at 17 for the military.
JW: That's correct.
TS: How much of the community life, how affected would you say you were by
the Gullah community before you went to join the Army? For example, did you take your
culture or this unique community with you in any way? Did you carry it with you
overseas?
�John Wright
JW: Of course I did. And it helped me along the way. As I navigated another
countries and other cities, I more than more than, the most effective, characteristics that I
took with me was mannerism that Southern charm. And also that, that, that level of, "Yes,
sir. Yes ma'am." So that part of me did really well in other cities and other states, and
other countries. So that Southern charm and then mannerism, took me a long way. And I
think that was, of all the things that I think, I learned as a kid was by far one of the most
effective, you know, when you talk about, as a kid, for me going out and delivering a
newspaper to all the neighbors and over a hundred or something houses every day. Well,
[inaudible] at age 12, I started reading this paper, and my views on essentially everything
changed by the time I was 14. Just simply based on my ability to, to look at what's
happening elsewhere and find a need to leave a comment on it, or "you can't get away
with it." So, so my travel-- in essence, when I traveled in other cities and states, unlike
most military guys who go to a military base and they're there, I, I would more, I was
always most intrigued by, by the environment of where I lived, and the culture of where I
live and the people. And, so that I took with me, and, so I've been-- that was, that served
me well.
TS: All right, this is a bit of a digression, but what places did you see while you
were out and about, for example, your bio on the website, they just list that you served
elsewhere, but is there any unique places?
JW: Well, I served, eight years in Europe, and I served in Fort Stewart, Georgia,
served in Fort Gordon, Georgia. I served in Fort Leavenworth, Missouri. I served in Fort
Hood, Texas, and I served in two conflicts. I served in Desert Storm as well as in Bosnia.
So serving in those two conflicts, of course. Then I served some time in-- one year in
�John Wright
Korean and some time out in, out of Wisconsin is where I spent a lot of my- late into my
military career.
TS: Okay. I respect that. I come from a military family myself, so I'm used to
hearing-- you know, my brother's in Korea currently, stuff like that. But one thing worth
asking is: you talked about how you were reading a lot already by the age of 14. Were
you aware, were you conscious of the difficulties your community was facing as you
were growing up?
JW: Well, that was not, that was not an, a child's thing it's really an adult thing to
be aware of, however not under-- not fully understanding and/or, um, embracing my
culture and where we live and the geographical location. But there was one thing I wish I
had done better. And it was just that: understanding that the geographical, cultural
perspective of these communities, I wish I had learned that. But I was not aware of the
value of where we live and the landscape and how we were duly located, not duly
located-- centrally located for survivability, near water lines and things such as that. I
wasn't aware why we lived in this geographical location, these communities, but I'm now,
I'm now far more educated [inaudible]-TS: Well when you returned, I think it was 2013, you returned from service in this
area.
JW: That's correct.
TS: Did you immediately-- you said that you were surprised at the continuity in
your community, that there were things that you remembered. Were you struck also by
the difficulties? Is that, is this how you began to confront, the problem with your
community and get engaged as you currently are?
�John Wright
JW: Exactly in 2013, I came home and I left home in '84 to, roughly [2015?]. And
then I came home for about [inaudible] growth had happened; development had
happened, and, um, and, and when I say growth and development uniquely in my case up
and traveling and living in other cities and other states and other countries growth was
good in a lot of cases because we needed to grow. I would not have wanted to come back
here had we-- had we, if we were still living by a fishing hole on the way to the beach. I
just wouldn't have been intrigued. You know, the idea that as a kid, everything that we
essentially had to do, we had to go to Charleston, South Carolina, we had to cross the
bridge to do it living here in Mount Pleasant. Well, fast forward to 2013, when I returned
home, there was really no need to go across the bridge to Charleston, for anything. Mount
Pleasant had now developed and blossomed to a community where that that became-where we now had everything you had hospitals. And we have all, all facilities that a
growing, city or community would have. But what I did know this was, that a lot of the
communities, the African-American settlement communities had been compromised.
They'd been encroached on, and the character, they were losing their distinct character.
So I then, in 2013, the current mayor at the time when I came home, Billy Swails he
literally raised me up as a kid. I spent nights at his house, and I played baseball for him.
And you know, he was a big part of my family essentially, I then told Billy that I thought
there was a need for change. And I thought we were-- our local government had become
quite antiquated and an outdated system. So I've been lobbying. I then started with a
conversation with the need to change our local government. And that's grown to a
petition that garnered 86,000 signatures-- I'm sorry, 8,600 signatures-TS: Still impressive.
�John Wright
JW: Yeah, to get a question on the ballot to determine whether or not we go to, go
from, at large to, to single-member district system, or at least more than anything else,
give the voters a sense of an opportunity to decide. What I learned during that, during that
campaign, that six month campaign of collecting signatures, we get that question on the
ballot to look at possibly changing up in the government. I learned that Mount Pleasant
had become two cities: the South End and the North End. And what I learned about folks
in the North End, a lot of them were, had had to come here from big cities and new,
Upstate New York and in the Midwest, like where I came from. And they had come here,
they had left cities that were already in districts. So they came here with the assumption
that as large as Mount Pleasant was, that we were broken into districts, but-- so it also
kind of gave me the idea that they were also not following, following, local, local
government and how it was formed. And for that matter, even local affairs so that they
knew they lived here for years, two years, three years, and to not know that we weren't
districts, then said, we just had some folks that came here that just came to Charleston,
came to Mount Pleasant to live in what we know is a very comfortable, safe place to live.
And you can come here and live, and it's safe, and it's comfortable and never have to
really get involved in local government because, it's just the entire community more than
anything else.
TS: Well, I spoke with Fred Lincoln recently, especially about the Cainhoy
community. And he liked to say that there was-- he had this saying that the Cainhoy
people “they're "not transit people." And he was trying to make this comparison between
what's happening in the Cainhoy community and other settlement communities, that there
�John Wright
was, even if they don't all fall under the Gullah description, that there's some type of
unity there. Would you agree with Mr. Lincoln?
JW: I would certainly agree one hundred percent. Essentially, settlement
communities are not communities where, we're, we're-- that's transit. Typically those are
communities where you have folks that are four or five generations. So you got in
communities where, for example, in Hamlin, where my family had had property, they
have my great-great-grandfather, Tom Bennett, purchased a 10 acre tract. That 10 acre
tract to this day is, has family. And he purchased that back in 1910, 1912. And to this
day, in 2021, it has at least four or five family members on it. So typically, the settlement
communities and the people within them are not transit. What you find is structures that
are not, that don't consistently conform with- with the neighborhood, Those are what
you'd find with new residents, and, new development. But structures that conformed were
primarily pretty much all the same.
TS: Well, I have a brief aside real quick. Um, you mentioned that there was a
North end, the South end in the Mount Pleasant community. Is that related to-- in
Cainhoy, they described as actually an ethnic division. You have your African-American
community or white. Is there anything like that in Mount Pleasant? Is "gentrification"
involved at all?
JW: Well, gentrification is always involved. You-- of course, a hundred years ago,
these were not popular areas to live. Whites had no desires to live here, and in and around
the waterways, but primarily blacks did. There was no need to live-- they didn't want to
live in them because of the infestation of mosquitoes and the marshland and things such
as that, but what the blacks lived for was survival. It was ideal for blacks’ survivability.
�John Wright
We can crab and we can fish and we can eat off the water. They live off the waters for
food; agriculture was a big deal. So we had, we would be able to farm and continue to
farm, as we did on plantations. So, that exists; now, now the gentrification is really more
about, folks that have come here and move into these communities, and have made them,
have created a tax based issue, with the property value. So that, that itself has been, been
a major problem. Now, when I say North End and South End of town, North End would
be beyond the IOP Connect here in Mount Pleasant. Growing up as a kid, anything
beyond Bowman Road, we considered the country. But today Bowman Road is in the
heart of the town. In fact, there's a Midtown coming up in and around where Bowman
Road is. Never heard of this before, but, these, this North End of town now where, where
30-- 40, 40% of the population of the town now resides.
TS: What other types of encroachments do you think are worth discussing? For
example, the Clements Ferry Road widening project is the big example that John
Sanders, Fred Lincoln mentioned Cainhoy. What kind of things was Mount Pleasant
experiencing? You've already listed quite a few. Is there anything more?
JW: Well, we, we're experiencing some road, growth issues as well, in the Phillips
community just recently, there was an issue about five lanes wide in, that community,
five lanes. There's ongoing issues in the Seven Mile community and the Four Mile
community there's-- um, literally, literally I left home and there was a two lane highway
on Highway 17, but now it's four, five lanes, and it has, destroyed, essentially that
community for what we know from what I know, and it's happening along the 17,
Highway 17 corridor from the foot of the bridge all the way out to, to the clinical area.
And so that's-- that, that highway is it's, it's, it's a major highway now. It's a major
�John Wright
doorway to get to Myrtle Beach and get to Georgetown. So, it's being used constantly,
but what has happened as a result of it is the more traffic we get, the more new, the
bigger the need is to get them toward those destinations and as fast as possible. So then,
what then happens is these little communities that were alive, that were right along,
Highway 17 have, have become affected.
TS: Okay. How did you find yourself going from lobbying for a single district to
being involved with the AASC and, like, confronting all these various types of
encroachment?
JW: All along, all along I single-member district was an issue. I felt that it would
be a way to press the government to understand, how we could-- fair and balanced
representation. What was ultimately my ultimate goal, my ultimate goal was fair and
balanced representation. Now it was perceived that, because we had only had one black
council member in the entire history of the town of Mount Pleasant, I'm a young black
male at home, and, you know, some people could experience this as well. And it's
perceived that I'm, I am coming home to demand representation on council. That's not-that wasn't the case at all. And so to me, it has never mattered, and it will never matter
who you the elected officials are; it's about accountability to me. So, um, it doesn't matter
what you look like. I'm gonna hold him accountable. But what, what, what I pointed out
at the time as well, was that town of Mount Pleasant, when I left home, we were about
22% black or about 22% of the population, and when I came home, we're less than 5%.
So therefore, there's no justification to, to have a black representative for the 4%
population. But uniquely, what made me realize the value in all these historic settlement
communities were that all these settlement communities, primarily, we're all in-- in
�John Wright
Charleston County, and they were detached from the town of Mount Pleasant. So when
you look at that, um, you're looking at about 99,000 residents in those settlement
communities that does not ever vote or know a voice in the town of Mount Pleasant. The
only-- the number one economy that they support, um, when they leave their
communities and go to the left or to the right, and they go spend money, they spend the
money to boost the economy in the town of Mount Pleasant, but they don't have a vote
nor a voice. Um, now, and most practically, those, those communities were part of the
town of Mount Pleasant and rightfully so and justified. And so we could, we could, I
would then maybe, to lobby, to have a representation on the council that reflects those
communities, but because they were not, um, could not go by the way of Charleston, the
city of Charleston, North Charleston, when both of those federal, federal suits to create
districts for representation. But we did not have those same set of dynamics. But what I
did know-- this as well, is that in my activity with the local government and council
meetings and the committees and the commissions that were formed, voluntary
commissions that were formed by the Town of Mount Pleasant, and also the town of
Mount Pleasant had an historic commission. And I also noticed that an Old Village
Historic Commission, there was no one advocating for the settlement communities. They
were, and not only were they not [inaudible] advocate for the settlement communities, I
then took it upon myself to demand that Charleston County, as well as the town of Mount
Pleasant adopt the language of calling these communities "settlement communities"
versus "unincorporated" or "donut holes," as those terms were being used. I and my
military methods and ways, demanded on-the-spot correction and that they not be called
"unincorporated" and they not be called "donut holes" because they were symbolic of
�John Wright
something, and they were settlement communities, and these people settled after
Reconstruction and bought the land-- not given the land, but bought the land. And that's
where they settled. So uniquely, maybe to this day, there was, you know-- Charleston:
we're the hub for this, for this whole slave, experience, and descendants of slaves, and so
on and so forth. But it just seems that history generally stops right at the plantation. It
does not go beyond Reconstruction, where these descendants went and lived after they
were free.
TS: Yeah [inaudible]-JW: So from that, I-- we, demanded the historical survey of these communities by
Charleston County, which then went to demand to use the term "settlement" for these
communities so that they would have the historical significance.
TS: Alright, that seems to be very successful, at least, you know, from my end,
new to the area. I've only heard of these as Settlement Communities. You can't look it up
without being reminded of how important they are, you know, as historic representations
of the story from slavery to Reconstruction and to the present.
JW: Well, that's very, that's, that's, that's very humbling to hear you say that. And
you've been here, how long, may I ask?
TS: I'm here-- I've been here about eight months, which doesn't mean I'm a local
yet.
JW: Okay, good. But in eight months, if you-- if the term that you become most
familiar with is "settlement," then you understand that this is-- this has historical
significance.
�John Wright
TS: Alright, and I appreciate what you've done so far, and I apologize if I'm
bouncing all over with my questions. That's just my style.
JW: That's not a problem at all.
TS: Oh, one thing I would like to clear up for our listeners is that the AASC: were
you involved in its foundation, or did it already exist when you came back from the
service?
JW: No, I was, I was a part of the co-founders that founded the AASC. And we
started this dialogue and this conversation around 2015 we adopted the [inaudible] the
bylaws from what-- from the Mount Pleasant Historic Commission. And we use their
bylaws to create our bylaws. And, we formed this group right around in the end of 2015,
but in 2016, we kind of kicked it in high gear. We had, we found a headquarters or a site
that we would use that would serve as our headquarters. It is, it is the Marguerite and
Peter Johnson Center, which the 440 Benning Street. And, that building, and that house is
very significant to me as a kid, that is up here in the Old Village simply because it was
the first black business in the town of Mount Pleasant, and dating back to 1929. And the
fact that our headquarters and our commission is using that building for our office and
our headquarters adds significant value. Peter Johnson, was the first black NAACP
president East of the Cooper, while Marguerite Johnson was the first black female
mortician. So a lot of history, a lot of significance in that. And what we did was as soon
as we were able to come to an agreement with the priory of the Johnson Hall Funeral
Home today to use that building. We then named the building, "Peter and Marguerite
Johnson Center," and we had a naming dedication ceremony, and we named that building
after those two. But, without the permission of the town, without the permission of the
�John Wright
county, we didn't, to bring back-- at least I didn't feel like we needed permission to honor
those two ambassadors that had never previously been honored, and no one, knew their
story until we kind of brought this, who they were back to life, essentially.
TS: Okay. Good to hear. Were you the president at the foundation of the ASC?
Have you been president throughout?
JW: Yes. I've been president from the time we started to today.
TS: What's your role as president?
JW: Well, I am the president over the African-American Settlement Community
Commission that's comprised of seven communities and presidents of the other
prospective communities. My role primarily is to grow the settlement commission, to
attend and act as a layer between local governance and the communities themselves. We
don't operate, we don't do day-to-day operations of the respective communities. But what
we do is, we serve as a layer between the communities and [inaudible] and their advocacy
in issues that arise, so that when an issue does arise, we're able to bring some strong
resources to whatever the issue may be, by having all the community, as well as our
commission, [inaudible].
TS: Okay. What strategies does the AASC use? You've mentioned lobbying and
the, uh, general organization from what I've heard from different groups, simply making
people act in concert for the benefit of the community. Are there any strategies or tactics
that you've used successfully?
JW: Yeah. Strong tactics is simply a matter of, using cultural and racial sensitivity
and empathy to ensure that we don't ask for equality; we demand it. And in doing so, it's
been extremely effective. Um, we're now listed, and as a consultant party for the National
�John Wright
Alliance for Clean Water and Sewer. We're also listed as a consultant party for the Corps
of Engineers, as well as Department of Transportation. We're listed as a consultant party
for the Highway 41 Widening and Improvement Project. We're listed as a consultant
party as well for, um, for the town of Mount Pleasant as well as Charleston County as a
local resource.
TS: All right. In your biography, it says that you've participated-- maybe it's not
you specifically, but they say that you've actually participated with the Citadel Oral
History Program before. Do you recall anything about that?
JW: We have, -- in fact, we've been privileged to have members from-- members
from the Citadel Oral History Alliance: Kerry, Kerry--, what was his last name? The
name escapes me, but, uh-- and then there's also the female; her name [inaudible], but
those guys have used our building, our headquarters to hold, oral history workshops. So,
not only have we worked with the Citadel and it's oral history, but it literally used our
building to host workshops.
TS: Okay. Do the names Kieran Taylor or Marina Lopez ring a bell?
JW: Absolutely. That's [inaudible].
TS: Yeah. I had to think for a moment. Those are the directors of my program.
They'd be happy to hear themselves referenced. I'm sure.
JW: Yeah. That's alright! [inaudible].
TS: All right. Well, that's good to know that there was connection here before me.
What are some of the most important accomplishments you've had before? Fred Lincoln
was actually positive about your role as consultants for the Cainhoy Community, for
example. Were there any places you feel like the AASC-- you know, you've, you know,
�John Wright
you've established "settlement community" as the proper term. Are there any other things
that you believe you've accomplished that you'd like to put on record?
JW: Well, it's been, um, it's been great to be honest, to have the opportunity to
come back home, with my exposure and my experience, and to come back home to be an
advocate for these settlement communities. They're all different. They all face,
encroachment, and they all face development, and, definitely gentrification. I think it's a
very, I think if I have to point to one issue, I think that has been most, that will be the,
that will be the brain child, as I would say, of my tenure as president: it would be the
saving of the 1904 educational institution. Currently to this day, we have, uh, 1904
educational school that was built in the Snowden community on Long Point Road. It's-our commission now owns the land. We own the land, and we also own the historical
building. That's going to be relocated to back into the Snowden community. It's currently
in the Snowden community, but it's going to be located directly in the community very
soon. And, um, we raised $40,000. We're also going to be responsible for raising funds to
restore it and preserve it and to use it for public use. I think the greatest achievement that
we have in that educational building is that the building from 1904 predates Brown v.
Board of Education. It also predates Rosenwald Schools. Rosenwald Schools were built
by Rosenwald; they came in and for blacks. They built these schools and, designed them
to educate young blacks. Well, there were some architects, some trade labor, gentlemen
that in 1904 thought-- knew that education was important and felt the need to build this
school for that community. So to take that-- have that school in the community, which
served kind of the [inaudible] community school concept. [inaudible] I think, when this
school is preserved and restored, I think it will definitely be-- I even think I'm gonna on
�John Wright
record and say that it'll be probably bigger than Desert Storm and probably bigger than
serving in Bosnia [inaudible] that I've been a part of.
TS: Does that institution have a name-- sorry.
JW: Say again?
TS: I'm sorry. I just asking, do you know the name? Is there a specific name for
this institution? The 1904?
JW: Yeah. It's called the Long Point School.
TS: Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt you, please continue.
JW: Okay. Is there a bit of school [inaudible]-TS: Okay. Um, we're having some audio troubles. Is my voice coming through
good to you?
JW: Yes, sir.
TS: Okay. I can only hope the recording is able to capture you pretty well, but,
anyway, thank you for speaking so far. I still have a few more questions, and we have
about 15 minutes, so you're still good. Um, what other groups and organizations does the
AASC work with in Charleston currently?
JW: Well, we worked with [inaudible]-TS: And Mr. Wright, is there a chance you could hold your phone closer to your
voice or to your mouth? Because, I hate to say it, but it seems like your voice is cutting in
and out. I can't always follow you.
JW: Okay.
TS: I hear you better. It's a technical thing, but, do you want to repeat what you
just said?
�John Wright
JW: Primarily [inaudible] primarily with Coastal Community Outreach
[inaudible] that are involved in [inaudible].
TS: All right. Thank you. We're going to work through the technical issues. Do
you think a disconnecting and reconnecting might help us here? I can pause the
recording.
JW: I whichever helps get us, um, best quality for the interview, I'm all for. I don't
know. I've come closer to the phone and I'm hoping that that would help.
TS: Yeah. Sometimes I can hear you just fine, like now, but sometimes it just cuts
your voice off completely as you're speaking.
JW: Well, I could probably attribute to this iPhone as well. It's probably not the
newest iPhone, so I have a case on it. And I think that too sometimes kind of can be a
hindrance to that.
TS: Okay. Well, right now I can hear you well, so let's keep going for a few
minutes if we can.
JW: Okay, great, great.
TS: Okay. Are there any groups that, uh, you would say you're actively opposed
to. I've heard things like the Port Authority to the Cainhoy group, uh, which seems to be
responsible for a lot of encroachment there. Are there any groups that you're trying to
work not "oppose" in a negative sense, but you know, who are your adversaries in trying
to improve your community?
JW: Well, I, I, you know, I-- there's no real adversaries that we don't want to work
with. Essentially, we want to work with all groups. There are some groups that I'm
adamantly concerned about, um, i.e. Heirs Property, the foundation, Heirs Property
�John Wright
Foundation. I think their intent is good to identify these heir's properties and to
understand the problem, some of the problems that come with heirs properties. But I also
think that it's also somewhat of an advertisement. They advertise [inaudible] in a lot of
ways. And, that to me, I think can be problematic. When you do an extensive study on
the heir's property and understand why it was established, and then you're promoting it as
heir's property and the problems associated with it, I think it only lends as to developers
as well as for, those that they're looking to be, you know, to come into this community.
So advocacy, some advocacy that can appear to be in the best interest-- sometimes that
can reverse itself.
TS: Okay. What you mentioned about the heritage property foundation? What we
call that in public history is commodification that they're basically turning it into
something to export, uh, you know, for advertising for sale. So I think I get what you're
saying there now. Are you tired of me asking questions about the Cainhoy community? I
only keep bringing that up, one, because I have other contacts from there, two, because of
the Post & Courier likes to exaggerate its importance. That's like the big visual thing,
like, John Sanders and the tree. That's what the newspapers go for. Are you as frustrated
as that, with that as Mr. Lincoln with that? You know, the settlement communities are
more than one tree.
JW: Absolutely. You know, it is always, you know, it's, it's I, myself have been a
radio personality. I have been on a talk radio show and, issues like that tree issue-- that is
it's almost a shame when a tree gets more, more publicity than that a community has been
approached, a community that's being told "You can no longer have the properties one
big parcel [inaudible]. They gotta be in parcels. The deed bring these communities into,
�John Wright
21st century that were established after Reconstruction. So, yes, that tree, it was a small,
small, small-- very small significance to the community. Let's see, probably more, that
tree probably [inaudible]. So that's where it's probably [inaudible] the right to gather
under that tree. That was the visual that I have. [inaudible].
TS: Okay, thank you. So, uh, when we have a few minutes left, I'm just gonna ask
you two or three of the big questions that kind of help summarize what we discussed
today. So, real quick, would you say overall, your participation has been the story of
success? That you've made a positive difference through what you've done and AASC as
accomplished-- not finished its goal; it's like an internal struggle, I know-- but it's making
progress or at least it's improving things where we can.
JW: Oh yeah, certainly.
TS: I'm sorry, you've cut out again.
JW: When you hear the term settlement, it has some significance. You- you're at
somewhat intrigued to know "What is it? What is this thing?" You're not-- there's nothing
intriguing about "unincorporated area". So look at the value of the term "settlement". It
has a lot of historical significance. It has, it brings back cultural pride and cultural
awareness. So yes, the term "settlement" has been-- it's been one of the major
accomplishments, as well as just the ability to bring both generation of folks who are
descendants of the slaves that settled in these communities, bringing them to [inaudible]
with some of our current issues.
TS: Okay. Just for the fun of it, as the final thing I ask of you: could you, in one
paragraph, just describe for the world, you know, give your a bit towards a global
understanding of what the settlement communities in Charleston are? "Settlement," does
�John Wright
it, invite curiosity? So how would you answer that curiosity? What is a settlement
community?
JW: Slave descendants that have managed to maintain these properties for well
over hundreds of years since Reconstruction with a sense of pride. These are
communities; settlement communities are communities that are not traditional, planned
development community. These are communities that have the land is acres. The land
was, was established for the use of multiple families to live on the land. So when we look
at accomplishments and things that we could do today to bring to-- so that each
settlement communities would have its cultural significance: nothing more than just the
people, the people that live on the land that are descended from slaves that acquired these
land, dating back .
TS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Wright. I think it was very well said. Last things I
need to do is just some little business stuff. I-- did I email you a copy of the interview
agreement that, uh...
JW: Uh, you did not.
TS: Okay. That's something, um, I'll send that immediately after this discussion
here. I believe we've done everything pretty well. The audio, we had a few issues there,
but overall, you know, uh, the majority of it I can hear fine, and I'll be the one in charge
of editing the transcription. Would you like a copy of that transcription to review?
JW: I certainly would like that.
TS: Yeah. So what I'll do is, as soon as you can get the interview agreement back
to me, and as soon as I can edit that transcription, I will send it to you before the Citadel
archives it. All right. I very much appreciate it, sir.
�John Wright
JW: Thank you.
End of Interview
N. Timothy St. Pierre 14th April 2021
MLL 5/5/21
�
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Publisher
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Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Timothy S. Pierre
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Wright
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina via Zoom
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
51 minutes
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Oral History of John Wright, interviewed by Timothy S. Pierre, 14 April 2021
Subject
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African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Description
An account of the resource
John Wright grew up in Mt Pleasant, South Carolina. His family roots are in two African American settlement communities, Philips and Hamlin. At seventeen, he joined the US Army, and after retirement in 2013, he returned home. He reflects on coming back to a dramatically changed area and understanding the benefits and challenges development has brought to the Black communities in the area. He states that the lack of fair representation for the black communities prompted him to organize an effort to advocate single-member voting districts for the town government. Wright takes pride in demanding a change in the language to name the black communities as settlement communities. He is one of the founder members and current president of the African American Settlement Communities Historic Commission. The commission, active since 2015, comprises seven communities represented by their respective presidents. Local, state, and federal agencies frequently consult and collaborate with the commission. Wright affirms his tenure’s brainchild is the preservation and relocation of a school built in 1904, the Long Point Road School House.
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The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
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The Citadel Archives and Museum
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2021-04-14
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
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application/pdf
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English
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Text
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Charleston (S. C.)
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https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1684
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PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – FRED LINCOLN
Interviewee: FRED LINCOLN
Interviewer: TIMOTHY ST. PIERRE
Interview Date: March 11, 2021
Location: Charleston, SC
Length: 54:52 Minutes
TIMOTHY ST. PIERRE: My name is Timothy St. Pierre. I'm conducting this
interview with the Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. It is 8:03 AM on
March 11th, 2021. Mr. Lincoln, are you okay with being recorded for this interview?
FRED LINCOLN: Yes.
TS: All right. Could you, introduce yourself and tell us how you came to live in
this area?
FL: Fred Lincoln and my ancestors lived on the adjacent plantation, whereas
now, and after slavery, they bought three hundred acres of land adjacent to the plantation,
because, the reality was they worked free, but they still have to economically be tied to
the plantation. So they were still working on the plantation, after slavery. So it was to the
advantage of the slave owner to have them live adjacent to the property, to the plantation.
So they sold them the 300 acres of land adjacent to the plantations. And luckily contain
all 300 acres total. The present time.
TS: Is this all in the Cainhoy community currently?
FL: Yes.
TS: All right. So you're currently a resident, would you say, of that community?
�Fred Lincoln
FL: Yes.
TS: Okay. So we're going to get a little bit more recent talking about that, that
meeting tree controversy itself. What connections did you have with the community other
than just living there? What was your participation in the area?
FL: We have organization the Wando-Huger, CDC [Community Development
Corporation] that covers the total area. I act as chairman of that committee.
TS: Could you repeat the name of the committee please?
FL: Wando-Huger CDC and, we have been proactive on, and, trying to protect all
community development came in 1992 until present. And I'm also chairman of our
volunteer fire department in our community, and we, assist in maintaining our historical
school and, our historical graveyard.
TS: Is that the Venning Cemetery? Is that the same graveyard?
FL: Yeah, Venning Cemetery.
TS: Okay. What do you know about the Clements Ferry Road Widening Project?
This is, as I understand the one that prompted, you know, resistance to cutting down that
tree.
FL: They had phase one a few years back and it wasn’t a necessity at that time.
We have fought so many battle, in the beginning stage of development, because we felt
that development was encroaching on the community, and those trucking company right
next to them. And then eventually home. And by the time it was time to widen, I'm road
in the first stage, there wasn't any disagreement between the community and the highway
department, because it was a necessity because the traffic was so bottlenecked that they
needed to do something to widen the road, and all main focus was that folks who lived on
�Fred Lincoln
that road or owned property on that road, that they were properly compensated. And that
was all big issue. And we worked with people, residents on that road to make sure that
they were properly compensated for it. Wasn't the issue that we fought, rule expansion.
TS: So why do you think the meeting tree, uh, where John Sanders, you know, he
camped out there for a good long period. Why did that become the most noticeable
subject? If you were just trying to get compensation for these people? Why does the
media, why does the Post & Courier spend so much time on the meeting tree?
FL: Well, that's, that's how the media, they get the most sensational stuff so that
we get the attention. So that's how they sell their product, by the most sensational activity
that's going on. The tree was a concern for us because it's been there all my life. But the
only reason we didn't see a large black participance in trying to save the tree because the
alternative was that, black folk, would have lost property, they took option two, which
was to go more North, and folk who live adjacent to that tree, they would have lost a lot
of properties. So we were caught in the middle. We felt, we wanted to save the tree
because of the history, but we also were mindful that people need places to live. So there
wasn't a big uproar in the black community over the tree, but we supported Sanders and
his effort to keep the tree.
TS: Okay. So I've read, um, from Post & Courier, again, that there was an
environmental part to this debate that the widening project rather have to go through
wetlands, I believe that's in the North as you say, or else it would have to be cutting this
tree or cutting into the property on the South side. Do you know anything?
FL: Yeah, that was a, that was an issue also in a road like that, it was gonna
infringe on the environmental aspect of it, but you know it's just that, what, you're going
�Fred Lincoln
to expand the road, so you're going have to expand the road into the wetland and then
choose with the direction that you want to go. Highway department picked option one,
and the community offered option two, but they stuck with one.
TS: So the authorities, uh, they claimed that they took all this under sincere
review and said they absolutely had to take option one, as you said. Do you believe them
that the authorities were dealing honestly with your groups?
FL: Well, I would think I would question their integrity on it, but the decision had
to be made, however you go, I mean, I don't think you could avoid the wetland because
the bridge was always there, but now you have to widen, expand that bridge. Either way,
you're tampering with wetlands, but you know, there's so, so there's gonna be a few issues
that wetland, when the bridge is going to be expanded. So they go South or North, they
were gonna deal with the wetland. So I don't think a wetland was a major issue. How
could we circumvent the tree? And this is where it was a tough decision.
TS: Okay. Were you ever present at the Meeting Tree during the, uh, the standoff,
so-called?
FL: Oh, yes. I went, I went down and spent some time with uh, Sammy Sanders
the day before they took the tree down. That was just one of the issues that we were
dealing with in the community. It wasn't the major issue, but it was an issue, you know.
TS: Okay. So you would argue that the Cainhoy Meeting Tree was just, it was not
the central piece of this whole debate. Do you think it distracted from the genuine
movements you were trying to do against the uncompensated seizure of people's
property? What, was the Meeting Tree a distraction, or did it help your cause?
�Fred Lincoln
FL: Well, the Meeting Tree is a part of it, but I don't think we, we couldn't do both
and one would interfere with the other. One would just get more media attention. But my
main focus was that the reality is that the road would be expanded, and we have folks
along that room that own property and anticipating, uh, commercializing their properties
so that they could benefit from it. Usually in the black community, when a road comes
like that, eventually the black folk who owned the property, vanish, and folks come in
and for generations they make all the money, and we're gone. And, we're probably in
worse condition than we were. This time, we had a strategy of having black people who
commercialized their property or lease it, or come up with a commercial venture that
would benefit them for generations rather than just walking away from their property
with a few dollars. And so that's what I would concentrate on more, of organizing folks to
take advantage. And you just have the opportunity to cry about it, knowing that it's the
reality that the road will be widened, that a commercial venture would expand on the
road. So we wanted to be a part of that, that we would not be like, I saw happen in Mount
Pleasant. All the black-owned property is now generating generational income for other
than the original property owners. Those were my main, main concerns. And we could do
that and give our ear to the tree at the same time. Okay.
TS: Were you involved in, uh, opposing this, uh, this intervention from phase one,
in other words, as soon as you caught wind of the Clements Ferry Road Widening
Project, were you already beginning this activism?
FL: Oh, we've, we've been involved 20 years ago. Uh, the, the road was, the
expansion was not a major issue, um, for the community. For the reality was we know
what's going to take place. Ours was only that just compensation for properties and, uh,
�Fred Lincoln
faced the reality that the road would be expanded. And we didn't want to be taken
advantage of in that process. And all major issue have taken place, you know, long before
the road expanded commercialization of all residential communities.
TS: So you mentioned that you were a member of the committee that, you know,
you mentioned earlier, would you say that committee was the central force trying to
organize the community to ensure that there was an equitable use of property?
FL: Oh, yeah.
TS: What was your role on that committee, specifically?
FL: The chairman.
TS: So what do you do as chairman? Are you in charge? Um, is it like an
executive position where you can kind of direct how things happen?
FL: It's a volunteer where everybody sits down and tries and come up with a
strategy of how are we going to go forward and how we're going to try to preserve the
integrity of our community,
TS: If you were willing to, could you actually describe some of the strategies that
your group has tried to do and whether or not they were successful? For example, John
Sanders, you know, he had a vigil on a tree for several months. What kinds of things
could your committee bring to the table?
FL: Well, uh, you know, for years we just got kinda complacent. We're trying, we
tried to get involved in the County Comprehensive Plan. We tried to plan our community
and have our community interests interjected into the Comprehensive Plan. Um, we have
been in the area trying to deal with issues like property and all the involvement that that
had and what effect that had on our community when development comes into the
�Fred Lincoln
community. We have been working with families trying to discourage them from selling
their property in the early stage of the development, when we didn't even have water or
sewer coming along Clements Ferry Road, trying to sell well, even if there were going to
fail, but wait until you get it where the property value is increasing, get the perfect dollar
for it. And, uh, and we have, uh, worked with members in all areas to have their property,
uh, divided. So, so that their property was a threat at that time, when you have 30 acres,
more than likely you lose it, but if you divided it up in 30 partials, then you may lose a
proportion of it, you wouldn't lose all. Those are the major activities that we have with
dealing in, at the same time, running our own volunteer fire department so we wouldn't
have to be annexed to any city, we could be more independent because we were all tired.
So we were a working community, an independent community and trying to maintain
ourselves, maintain our history and maintain the history of our ancestors who'd fought so
hard for us to have these properties. We didn't buy these properties, they were passed
down to us. We had an obligation to try and maintain it.
TS: Were there any heated moments during this, that protracted protest-slashequitability movement? Were there confrontations with police or authority figures,
anything dramatic that you would like to share?
FL: No. No. Never had any competition with anyone involved. Everything goes
through, we continuously went before Loaning Boards, County Councils, Charleston City
Council fighting for the issues that we thought were important for our community, the
whole big development with the Cainhoy Plantation properties. That we've fought the
master plan two years, trying to make sure that the master plan would include, uh, low
income housing. And we didn't need, you know, projects and stuff. We wanted a property
�Fred Lincoln
that would, a certain area that would be sold that you could have a mobile home on those
properties build smaller houses for folks from the service sector would be able to own a
home, and those were our issues. Those were issues we put before the Charleston
Council. And, uh, we were able to get 150 acres of that property zoned, where you can
put mobile home on it or very small homes, it would not be increasing value. Well, well
folks from the service industry, which is all we have in these areas, folks working in the
service industry not more than $10 an hour, but nobody was building a sub division
where they could actually hold land not just rent, affordable housing throughout TriCounty Area, not focus on renting. We came up with something different. We want
property ownership for the underclass or making that 10, $10 an hour, that they would
have a place sold that their property value would not push them out of the market.
TS: How successful were these efforts? Do you think that you were actually able
to accomplish many of your goals with this master plan?
FL: Yeah, because 158, but we were asking for ten percent of the property, um,
with the mayor came up and we bet we could have upwards of 150 acres zoned so that it
would be a low-income community forever. Once you interject mobile homes, nobody
had ever put in the master plan to allow a mobile home on the property. No one, we were
the only ones that came up with that idea. That, that's the only true affordable housing
when people take pride in ownership. And that was property that would allow for mobile
homes. Uh, so we got that idea on the table, and 150 acres more were set aside for that.
And that came from our efforts.
�Fred Lincoln
TS: Okay. Would you say that local governments were actually listening to your
committee and your groups doing this? 'Cause it sounds like if not sympathetic, they were
at least responsive. Does it feel that way to you or are you frustrated?
FL: Well, what happened? We did better than most communities. We took
busloads of people down to the County, to the Charleston Council meeting and those
numbers mean something to politicians. And they show how serious, we showed how
serious we were. And I think we gained a level of respect, no one had ever brought that
many people down to a meeting,
TS: The Post and Courier likes to portray, um, especially, you know, how they
always like to focus on the Meeting Tree or on John Sanders. They tried to show that as
an example of how both sides in this case were uniquely civil. As in there wasn't a lot of
name calling there was no violence or anything. Would you say that was overall true for,
uh, the organizations that were approaching this Clements Ferry Road Project? In
general, were people civil?
FL: Yeah, um, everything, uh, so far has been civil, there wasn't any major
disturbance in the whole event. So, yeah.
TS: Do you think that might've been a reason why your community was more
successful than some others?
FL: Because we were more civil?
TS: Do you think so, or do you have another explanation for your success?
FL: Well, I think in our community, the organizational effort, um, played a part in
it. You know, you can have a community with ideas. If you didn't have the community
united behind you, then you don't really make any progress. But everybody knew that we
�Fred Lincoln
could get 75 people at our council meetings in an instant. And I go to a lot of meetings
where I never see that many people come out for issues, for issues that we were dealing
with. I think that may because, and we did the same thing when we were dealing with the
Port Authority when they were trying to bring, I don't know if you read the history of the
Port Authority, trying to bring a railroad and a truck route straight through all
community. We fought that for three years and won.
TS: Were you able to prevent the Port Authority from putting those in, or did you
win concessions for property?
FL: I don't know if you read up on the Global Gateway, the Port Authority was
gonna put this massive port on Daniel's Island but they weren't gonna come from Daniel's
Island. They would come through the back, through our community with the railroad
track and, uh, truck routes. And that would have decimated the whole community and,
um, everybody felt like we couldn't win all. Uh, they offered us $5 million after we
fought for a year, so, and we're rejecting, and that was 25 years ago and we rejected the
$5 million and continued to battle. Until the end, with the support of some regular allies
we were able to win.
TS: So do you think-FL: And gained a level of respect for us, because we were able to fill the
auditorium with people to protest that. We had busloads of people coming from all over.
So that, from that, they gave us a level of respect. And that's why I think there wasn't so
much are still be going forward with, in dealing with the developer when the
development came.
�Fred Lincoln
TS: So these authorities, they were basically giving your community the raw end
of the deal to benefit other areas. And you think by making yourself known, they were
forced to consider what they were doing.
FL: Yeah. Yeah. When you have an organized effort, you gain a level of respect.
Um, what happened? Our community has been chosen for, uh, roads and stuff like that
because they seek the path of least resistance and our community has always been less
organized, had less influence. So they would pick our community rather than pick an
established community with lawyers and everything waiting for them. Our community
didn't have that. So they would pick our community to put a highway or railroad track.
So, and once we showed them that we are willing to fight, and we were organized and,
uh, we weren't gonna, you know, so stolen lot to happen. So that, that gained that level of
respect. That's why when the development came, um, We had already established
ourselves.
TS: Okay. That leads me to a question. And I know it's a bit of a hard one, but
you mentioned that the Cainhoy community is this path of least resistance that authorities
would try to go through. Why did that turn out to be misguided? Is there something
unique about your community that allows you to earn the respect of the authorities by
organizing this way? Or was it just good fortune of having leaders like yourself who were
able to bring people together?
FL: The thing about it, you have a community, that's not a transit community. If
you have a community that's a transit community, it's different from our community. All
the kids that I went to school with, you know, they're still here. Um, people through
generations, they still here. So they have a certain amount of pride, a certain amount of
�Fred Lincoln
"This is our home," more so than a person who lives in a city, or like North Charleston
and places where folk move from other places there. They don't have a grounding there.
They don't have anything to fight for. They'll just move to another place if things got out
of hand. So we don't have that option. We don't see that as an option, leaving our
ancestral property and going somewhere else and being forced out. So we would more
than likely fight more than people in the inner city that I see, or people who do not have a
tradition and a heritage in the area that they're willing to fight for: they are transit people.
We are not transit people, but when we've we build a house and that's going to be our
telephone number, our address for a lifetime. I think that's easier, if that's being
threatened. It's easier for us to get those people to come out to a meeting. If you send for
them, that you all, your quality of life is being threatened, your heritage is being
threatened, it's easy for me to get those people to a meeting that someone organizing in
the city.
TS: Do you think there are other communities like yours around Charleston that
could benefit from earning the respect of the authorities and the same type of
organization?
FL: Well, we have one that's doing it right now. If you read the news, the deal
with the port community right down the street, they, they just, they're fighting now and
won the first battle in stopping a road expansion through their community. And they've
had people who were fighting longer than me in their community, and they have the same
situation. Like we have. They have people that have been there for generations. they're
not a transit community, and they're, they're fighting and doing an incredible job. They
were trying to bring a four-lane through their community, five lane in a sense, and they
�Fred Lincoln
fought and fought, and the other night. So a committee, in Charleston County Council,
Charleston County voted to agree with them that there should not be a five-lane coming
through their community. So, you know, those people, uh, we followed them. They are
similar to our community.
TS: Okay. So these communities aren't isolated. Do you think there's any hope
that the communities are learning from each other and that they might be able to share
ways to organize?
FL: Well, you have organization, African-American Settlement Community
Commission. Well, all of these communities are connected with them. So when
something happened over here, they're aware of it, and I know what's going on in the
Gullah community. They know what's going on in my company. And we come to each
other for everybody, we feed off one another. Then new thing, when I sit down with
them, they know things that I don't know, I told them one thing that I'm aware of. So we,
we do piggyback from one another.
TS: Okay, well, we'll have another chance in a little bit to discuss, you know, the
big movements that are going on around Charleston real quick. I would actually like to
refocus kind of on the Cainhoy Meeting Tree, that aspect of it. I know it's only a minor
part, but it's, you know, it's big in the papers. So people see that as a representative of the
community. So would you mind discussing that for a moment? Has you met John
Sanders personally? Do you know him personally, outside of visiting the Meeting Tree
while he was doing a vigil?
FL: Well, we have a long history. You know. Um, it was the white community
and the black community. Well, Sammy is part of the white community. Uh, when we
�Fred Lincoln
were fighting for the Port authority, um, Sammy worked with me on that issue. Um,
when they had problems involved in their community where a developer wanted to, uh,
build something there that they didn't want, I fought with them, and through the years we
have had that type of relationship. And so this is not just happening now, that's happening
for the last 30 years on issues when I need them, you know, they would be there for me.
When I, when we had the big meeting North Charleston Coliseum, he was there, Sammy
and other people in that white community. Um, I have a level of respect in that
community, and if I needed their help on something, I could readily, um, get that support.
And right now we are fighting for the integrity of a graveyard, right adjacent to that tree.
Well, at that grave site, you have the white grave yard, and adjacent to it you have the
black grave yard, and it been there for generations. But I knew very little about it until
they brought it to my attention. And now we are fighting to make sure that developers do
not infringe on that graveyard. They claim it as private property that they own it. Those
grave sites over there belong to my ancestors. So we'll fighting now to try to get the
developers to relinquish authority over the graveyard. So now we could combine the
graveyards as one, where one's a white and black graveyard, now we could combine it
and make it one graveyard to reflect the time, 2001. So we're working on that issue
together. And Madame [Inaudible], uh, we have, and she's [Inaudible] on it than us and
then she's the one who brought it to our attention that there are black graves out there. So
there's a history of us working together just in the last 30 or more years.
TS: Okay. Well, if you wouldn't mind talking about that, um, the graveyard you
mentioned, I believe we said that was the Venning Cemetery.
�Fred Lincoln
FL: Nope. Venning Cemetery is on the plantation itself, original plantation. Uh,
this graveyard is off Clements Ferry Road, right, right by the, uh, the Meeting Street
Tree, and there's a little bridge that separates the graveyard and this tree, and the tree. So,
it's so close together you can throw a stone.
TS: So is the widening project what's threatening that graveyard right now? Or is
there a different developer?
FL: No, it's gonna come closer, but it's not gonna deal with the integrity of the
grave yard, but, uh, with our effort is with the developers just started developing that area
and we are trying to, uh, have them not to infringe on the graveyard or not to petition to
move and integrate. And we want to combine the two graves together in the same plot,
but they have been separated for generations.
TS: Okay. What type of settlement are you hoping for? Would it be perhaps they
relinquish rights to the property in exchange for compensation, similar to the widening,
you know, the road widening project?
TS: The graveyard is not of any economic value to them. And if you combine that
with the white graveyard, and it's a benefit for everybody, the developer and everybody.
It's properly maintained, and the fence that they have contributed, something to bring our
community together, people no longer would be buried in separate graveyards, it would
all join in one. So I thought that would be a good, good idea.
TS: Yeah. It seems like a noble one. How optimistic are you that you're going to
be successful saving that graveyard?
FL: Well, we're gonna try and get in touch with their corporate headquarters.
They're a big, big company, and maybe we could get a better response, cause on the local
�Fred Lincoln
level it's not, not getting to hear, you know, what you want to hear. Maybe we could
make that work, and it's going to take the effort of, right now. The effort of the white and
black communities on the same page. I think we can look for an optimistic, um, future
concerning that gravesite.
TS: Okay. That's all very enlightening. Um, you mentioned that there was a big
meeting in North Charleston where you cooperated with, uh, uh, Sammy Sanders and
who he represented, like, at the coliseum.
FL: Yeah. We had a big gathering, um, uh, dealing with Port Authority and we
were dealing with the Port Authority. It stopped the railroad from coming through our
community, you know, and we've sold the Fine Arts Center that night. And I think that
impressed, but all the politician was there and from the area, and all that. And once we
showed them how serious we were, and they went to poll that place, and, uh, nobody had
ever done that before. And we made the presentation before them, and it's like, it's like,
you know, our history, our community and we're passionate about it. And I was able to
get some of the staunch Republican, um, lawmakers to work with me from that point on.
And that's how we became successful. If I had just depended on Democrats, then we
would have lost, but, here we could count on support of key Republicans to work with us
from that juncture on because they saw how many people that came out and how
passionate we were, and how organized we were.
TS: Okay. So it sounds like there's more of a close-knit and widespread
movement here than, you know, the news would imply because they just like to focus
that there's this one tree and you have in danger being cut down and that appeals to
people's imagination. Um--
�Fred Lincoln
FL: There's more to our community than that tree. We have lost much more than
that tree since this development started. In certain areas, we have lost a lot of property,
you know, and, uh, for us this is one aspect of it, but it's all connected.
TS: So, the tree has already been cut down. Have you visited that site since, uh,
February? Since when it was cut down?
FL: Yes, so what's gonna happen. Uh, we, uh, about twelve years ago, we had a
historical black school that, uh, our ancestors who built that school themselves. And some
of them were former slaves. In the '20s, they built that school. Now, Hugo had damaged
that school. So we reconstructed the school, and that's a historical site. So what we're
gonna do now is to take that tree. We're trying to find a way to take the part of that tree
and treat it and bring it down to that school and put it, put it up as a monument, uh, to, to
the history of our community. So that's how we are working now, to see if we could get
someone to take a portion of that tree and treat it. So it wouldn't rot and put it at the
(key?) School.
TS: Um, what's left of the tree? I have not visited the area myself. Is it just laying
there waiting to be pulped, or--?
FL: Yeah. It's just laying there.
TS: What other, uh, damage has your community suffered from the widening
project? You mentioned that there was quite a bit of, not just lost property, but, uh-FL: No, no, no. When I said we have lost a lot of property, not because of the
highway. So, uh, the other area before the highway.
TS: Okay.
�Fred Lincoln
FL: Where folks were enticed and cajoled into selling property that they should
not have sold at the time in the early stage. that's what I was talking about "lost." When
the development by the Mark Clark they put in place, uh, people coming around, wanting
to buy property at that point, people at that juncture were not much conscious of the value
of their property. And a lot of them didn't boat there, so they sold a lot of property of the
community because of the development in there, before that property, no one would even,
uh, venture to offer your price for them. Once the Mark Clark came across, expansion of
Clements Ferry Road, that's when we lost a lot of property.
TS: So kind of getting at the, uh, the bud of the issue. You mentioned how you
were pragmatic about it. You knew that there was no way to stop the project itself. You
were just trying to make sure that did not harm the community more than it had to. Do
you think this, uh, increased traffic will benefit your community in any way? Or do you
think the dangers it poses are more serious?
FL: Yeah. Now what's happened, now, with the, the development of the area, you
know, can have two different aspects to it. You know, let's talk about the good things that
have happened. Well, I, if I needed my lawn mower repaired, now, I no longer have to go
to Mount Pleasant or Charleston. I have one about two minutes away from my house. If I
wanted to go to the hardware store, I don't have to go all the way to Lowes, I could go
right on Clements Ferry Road. It's about five minutes from me, and the time I needed to
get to the airport, you know, that has been cut almost 75 percent in time to get to the
airport. Uh, jobs, uh, jobs on Clements Ferry Road, folks in my community could walk to
work or ride a bicycle to work. Those are the good things, with the development; they're
not all that's bad. Well, the bad thing about it for, um, zoning issues in the beginning
�Fred Lincoln
stage of this development were detrimental to all community. Um, people coming in and
enticing folks to sell all their property, that was a bad thing. The Port Authority coming in
with no respect at all, threatening condemnation to folks and taking that property, that's
the bad thing that happened to our community. And at this juncture, um, our area, we are
now having people with no place to live because family members have, who don't live
there have sold the land, and now these people end up to go to North Charleston, and they
no longer own property. They were living on 30 acres of property that their ancestor left
them, but because the other folks who didn't live there sold their property, uh, they are
now basically homeless people, without homes. And that's not a part of our tradition.
We've always lived on property that we own, uh, I myself live on 19 acres of property,
just me and my sister. And, um, so, you know, and that's, and we're right down the street
from Daniel's Island, but, um, those are the good and the bad, it's not all bad, it's not all
good.
TS: So there are other communities you've mentioned that have to deal with the
same problem. And often they're not as fortunate as Cainhoy has been, what's happening
to these communities that fail to prevent exploitation from these projects.
FL: Well, you have most of the community. If you go into the Mount Pleasant
area, you have, what we call Four Mile area, the Sweet Shop area, um, Greenhill,
Romney Point, those communities now are not the same communities anymore. They
have been decimated by development. They're no longer, the only black community you
have in Mount Pleasant that's basically still intact would be the Snowden community,
and, uh, they're still intact. And, um, they fighting daily, you know, to maintain their
integrity.
�Fred Lincoln
TS: So would you link this to what people call gentrification? You know, the, uh,
uh, wealthier, typically white classes moving in and taking these properties or, you know,
taking over after.
FL: Yeah, well, you know, gentrification is all economics, and I have seen it
happen in our community. You know, gentrification in our community has affected the
whites more than they've affected blacks--in our community now, only speaking only of
the Cainhoy Community. All the poor whites that I, they are now calling us asking for a
place to put their mobile homes. They don't have any place to stay. Most of them have to
have to move far up to Ladson or Summerville area. They, they no longer live in that, our
area anymore. They're gone, and gentrification is only basically economic, the whole
thing. Somebody wants your area more than you. And, now, they got the money. They'll,
buy out the community, and, um, people don't talk about it. Mount Pleasant and all those
communities, all the white, poor whites are gone. Closed down all the mobile home
parks. That's the gentrification nobody talked about. And they're all related. But, if you
go to Mount Pleasant, you can't find any poor whites there, they all used to live in those
old mobile home park. They must have had about eight or nine of them. All of them are
gone. That's gentrification.
TS: Okay. You, you mentioned that in Cainhoy, at least, that these changes have
affected the white population more, poor whites. Why is there this difference between the
poor whites and the black community? All right. Yeah. The black aspects of the
community and Cainhoy. Okay. I'm interested in the history of your community here.
FL: Yeah, well, um, and, and, in the white community, um, their property was of
more value than ours in the early stage because they would more readily get people to
�Fred Lincoln
live in their area. So they would buy those properties first, and then later on, they'll come
after ours. So in the early stages, a lot of them, their property escalated in value. Folks
sold, and now the poor one's left behind. They had no place to live. They had to go. One
person or so probably made money off the property, but the rest of them, no. And now we
don't have, you know, we have the Cainhoy Village, which is, uh, you know, a more
progressive white. Most of them are still there, but a lot of them have lost their property,
also. No longer there.
TS: It seems almost like an irony of a racial past in a sad way.
FL: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a reality that no one talked about.
TS: Well, you've mentioned that, uh, you don't have a lot of time this morning, so
is it all right if I wrap up with just one or two more questions?
FL: Yeah. Almost nine o'clock I got so many things to do today.
TS: I understand, sir. I really appreciate your time so far. So let me just ask you
real brief. Uh, first, what future activities might your committee, your committee be
taking part in? Uh, you mentioned, uh, the adjacent communities often have similar
issues. What's looming on the horizon that you're gonna have to deal with?
FL: Okay. Um, we're trying to get a hold of this pandemic so that we can have
more, um, sit down discussion on strategy as we go forward. What, the thing that we're
trying to get now, we're trying to get, uh, uh, uh, city water throughout our community.
We got it down the main street, but we haven't gotten into a lot of other areas and we're
gonna fight to get that. We need the clean water. Um, we're trying to fight, uh, DHEC
[Department of Health and Environmental Control] Uh, a lot of our community, now, uh,
we're having a problem with getting septic tank permits. So it's too full, we have to fight
�Fred Lincoln
DHEC on some of the regulation that's in place. So we think they're taking up too much
property to put down septic tanks. So you've taken up almost three quarters of an acre a
property just putting down a septic tank. And, um, at the same time, we're trying to get a
commitment from CPW, uh, to bring in sewer in our community. We know, we probably
have to fight for federal grants and all that, but in order for us to develop our property, to
live on it, um, sewer is a necessity. In the beginning, we were afraid of sewer, because
sewer makes you a major property, more attractive for developers, but now that they have
settled the property issue, we're no longer intimidated by development. The property is
divided up. They don't want one acre. They want thirty. So we, we're in a position
different than when we were thirty years ago. Now we can talk about bringing in the
sewer, which would be to our advantage so we could have more people living on our
property. And, um, we have issue with sewer. I mean, with, uh, garbage pickup. The
County excluded us from negotiating a pickup service from private industry. So we have
to go out on our own where the people who are in the County district, they pay $30, every
three months. We have been paying, like, $130 something every three months. So those
are the things, um, that we're working with the County now to correct. And water, sewer,
those are the issues we're dealing with now, and the good thing that that means we have a
lot of kids, grandkids that know nothing about this area moving back into the area from
the North. Um, we are seeing, now these kids come down and see our community, and
they no longer want to live up North. They want to live here. So we have to make
provision for them.
TS: Alright, well, uh, Mr. Lincoln, we're close to the time. So I think I'm going to
have to wrap this up, correct?
�Fred Lincoln
FL: Uh-huh.
TS: What I want to say real quick is though, um, it means a lot that you're willing
to take this hour off with me. And what you've done--you know, I'm not from here. I was
born in New York, lived in Tennessee. And so coming into this part of the country, uh,
most of the sources I get about what's happening in the community, around where I live,
I'm missing out on the stuff like you're talking about because there's a monopoly from the
newspapers. And they described this Meeting Tree as the center of everything, but you've
blown it open. And now, like, if this is on record, something that we can put in our oral
history program, people are going to get a lot more out of it because of what you've been
willing to share.
FL: Thank you.
TS: Yep. Quick summary, would you say: Cainhoy is more than just a tree, and its
people are not transit people. That seem like a good summary?
FL: You said it perfectly.
TS: Thank you very much, sir, and have an excellent morning.
FL: Thank you. Bye.
End of Interview
Norbert Timothy St. Pierre
11th March, 2021
MLL 4/30/21
�
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Oral Histories
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The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
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With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
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Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Timothy St. Pierre
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fred Lincoln
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
55 minutes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Fred Lincoln, interviewed by Timothy St. Pierre, 21 March 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--Civil rights
African Americans--South Carolina
Community organization--United States
Description
An account of the resource
Fred Lincoln is a resident of the Jack Primus community in Cainhoy, South Carolina. He lives in the land owned and passed down by his formerly slaved ancestors. Lincoln discusses the protest organized by John “Sammy” Sanders to save the Meeting Tree in Daniel Island that got the attention of the local media but received limited support from the local black community. He affirms the most pressing issue is protecting black residents’ property rights. Lincoln has been a member of the Wando-Huger Community Development Corporation since 1992. This organization has worked since its inception to ensure black residents receive adequate compensation when development is unavoidable. Lincoln takes pride in their work with Charleston County to zone 150 acres for affordable homes, as well as, stopping the Port Authority’s plan to open railroad and truck access through their community. He affirms that their ability to show up as an organized community with deep roots in the region earned them the political support they needed to succeed. Finally, Lincoln states they are currently working with the Department of Health and Environmental Control to bring city water and sewer services to the community.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives and Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-03-21
Rights
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Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
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application/pdf
Language
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English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S. C.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/1687