1
10
223
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/f24f352f2d9b24fedae90e19a8475cd2.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=aDpfk7sGzIfVtBfSrOPgkqYwBVcU5y8tUdlWMC6g2nxpiUpmQvtgyds9HnmYutn1DDn3IIAXOMhNxVbGxfAaAsoixdseY8vsOAVxEWsiRy4YTvoQQymWPEJ9FTyD1mqMAKLMoN5AqT9WZyik71Od6mlueywP4O8Noq0CJ8lG7jsf8GtF1asgt0oDtC8rkwPLqpRl-6RMXqxh2cDEv9xcVJQWfOaihekJIqKRJEG5cx82t9iC4gXsrAUqfr0LlejsEo0nqr7PF4YKcn7Gw376nfSafr2YD0LQwFpYFFzlHcKL4BsoNsEuic%7EzuG98XKO%7EQU9KHU8drgnc-7lUhZ7r6g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
0511eb31d780bbffb1c0c3b048a6e5bf
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – A. LEE CHANDLER
Interviewee: A. Lee Chandler
Interviewer: Jack Bass
Interview Date: October 26, 2008
Location: Rare Books Room, Daniel Library, The Citadel, Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 1 CD, 01:28:44
Jack Bass: Let me begin by asking you how you decided to attend The Citadel to
begin with.
A. Lee Chandler: It was a decision made not too long before I came. And I had
thought of some other colleges that I had hoped to go to but it--up in the east. One of the
Ivy League schools, but it just didn’t work out. I didn’t have the funding or a lot of other
things and so right towards the end they said where will we send him? And well the
consensus was The Citadel and so I came here that way.
JB: And where, tell me where grew up. Where did you grow up?
AC: I grew up in a--I was born in Orangeburg, South Carolina. I lived there till I
was nine and then we moved to Greenville. My family did. And my mother passed away
a year after we were in Greenville, and she had six children. So that’s where I grew up, in
that way.
JB: And when you got to The Citadel, what was your first reaction your first week
or two at The Citadel?
AC: Well I had been having discussions with some Citadel grads. Lawrence
Nickelson in Greenville, and a few others, and they pretty well forewarned me, in a sense
of the word, you know, what it was. I had not been in any form of a disciplinary location,
�A. Lee Chandler
2
but I was made very aware of what was ahead if you chose The Citadel. That’s the real
answer to it. I can remember those discussions very vividly.
JB: And then what was your major at The Citadel?
AC: Political science.
JB: So tell me about the process of going on active duty.
AC: On active duty?
JB: You enrolled in what year?
AC: Well I enrolled in ’39, but at the end of the first semester. It might be sort of
hard to believe because of the low cost at that time, but we had financial problems.
Although I had made excellent grades, four As and two Bs, I mean, I left and went to
Washington, where my brother was secretary to a congressman. And I stayed up there.
But during the summer of, that would be the summer of ’40, the opportunity came for me
to be able to, you know, make it financially. And so I really ended up in the class of ’40,
beginning class, which would make me in the class of ’44.
JB: Right.
AC: For graduation purposes and I never left after coming back. I forget the rest
of your question.
JB: Well I think that sort of covered it.
AC: But I knew people, more than most cadets did, who were in both classes. I
had close friends in the class of ’43. But when I left and came back I didn’t have the
opportunity--during the summers I would work and save money to help this person who
was helping me--and so I couldn’t attend enough summer school to pick up and stay in
the class of ’43. So I was happy to be in the class of ’44. And I made you know most of
�A. Lee Chandler
3
my friends then.
JB: And so you were in that group where the whole class went in?
AC: That is correct.
JB: Except for the premed students I believe.
AC: In the spring of 1943 we received the word from Washington so to speak that
all ROTC juniors would be activated in May of ‘43 and would not have a senior year.
JB: And so upon activation tell me what happened.
AC: What happened is that we all had to be, I never thought I’d forget these kind
of words, but it would be” matriculated” if you were in college. We had to be whatever
the military word for it, at Fort Jackson. We were enlisted, I guess you’d say, and then
sent back here for a few weeks before we then received orders. And in my case the order
was to, and all or most of us, and I was in the infantry section in artillery. At that time
that’s all that had was those two; they have more now. But the infantry, the youngsters in
the class of ’44, were sent to Fort McClellan, Alabama where we went through almost a
regular basic training that an enlistee who had never been to college would go through.
And at the end of that seventeen weeks then we were sent back to The Citadel because at
that time the way to get a degree, I mean to get a commission, was to--through the officer
candidate school program, OCS, and there weren’t sufficient openings in OCS when we
finished the seventeen weeks at Fort McClellan. We were sent back, and this is pretty
universal over the country, we were sent back to The Citadel under the auspices of what
I’m sure you’re familiar with, the ASTP, Army Specialized Training Program, which was
something that the Army had worked out. Looking towards getting some more educated
people in to the war if the war continued. So we were under the auspices of that program
�A. Lee Chandler
4
and then in December--.
JB: Were you taking classes?
AC: Oh yes, you went to classes.
JB: I mean did you pick choose them or did the Army tell you which classes to
take?
AC: We pretty well started taking what we had been taking. I mean I think there
were enough faculty to do that. But we didn’t do that program under the auspices of the
ASTP for more than a couple of months and then openings occurred in the officer
candidate schools to take us in and right after Christmas we received our orders,
Christmas of ’43, we received our orders to report to the infantry group to Fort Benning,
Georgia where the officer candidate school was, OCS, and we began there.
JB: Let me go back a minute. Tell me your memory of hearing, first hearing about
the attack on Pearl Harbor.
AC: It was--I mean I had had enough education by then to, you know, to
appreciate the enormity of what was happening and I got--well, I think it would just be
called an ordinary depression to learn how much we were admitting had been destroyed
in the way of big ships and so forth at Pearl Harbor. And that was the way it affected me
and I think it affected a whole lot of other people. You could hardly, after December the
7th, you could hardly get in to the recruitment officers. That’s what woke up this country
in my opinion to what it had to do. There were a lot of isolationists still going until Pearl
Harbor and of course that changed the picture altogether. And--.
JB: When you first heard were you--when you first heard the news did you hear it
on the radio or from somebody tell you?
�A. Lee Chandler
5
AC: I can’t Jack, I can’t exactly remember that. But I mean we learned it very fast
that Sunday morning.
JB: Right.
AC: On the radio, it was, you know, just about everything on the air. That Pearl
Harbor had been bombed. I was on the basketball court--what is now McAllister, you
know, Field house where the graduations and all are. And I think that’s where I first
heard it. I mean I can’t remember whether--I know it wasn’t on the radio. We all went to
radios but it was circulated that the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbor. And at first we
didn’t think that there could be nearly as much damage and destruction and
overwhelming of our Navy there that it was. But we learned it very quickly. And General
Summerall, our president then, assembled the whole corps in the field house and made a
statement. And I can’t remember what all he said but I know he was emphasizing the fact
that everyone should remain calm. I remember that. And that’s the way we learned-that’s the way I learned of it.
JB: So now I want to go back and pick up where you were at OCS and after OCS
at Fort Benning.
AC: Well we went to officer candidate school and after four weeks and I was
getting along well there and everything. I had a potential hernia condition. I knew that
already but if you could kind of suck up just to be candid about it, you could, it wouldn’t
show up, but they called a spot inspection one time and you didn’t have time do that. I
wanted to stay in the class I was in, because they had been my classmates at The Citadel.
And when we went to the candidate school, OCS, juniors from all over the country,
ROTC juniors, whether you were at The Citadel which was military and VMI, but it
�A. Lee Chandler
6
applied to Georgia Tech, Mississippi State, Lehigh--where the new coach came from
here--and so the authorities at Fort McClellan thought, “Well it would be good to have
just an all ROTC class together.” And so we were put together. And that’s where I met so
many young men from so many colleges. We were an all ROTC and I don’t mean to say
it in any boastful sense, but we were way ahead of the ordinary enlistee who would come
off the street and begin his training without any previous three years that ROTC schools
had had. And it was very interesting. We were company C and it was very interesting.
Now then, after I was in it about four, maybe five weeks, they had this spot inspection
and caught my hernia. And nothing would do, but they just posthaste assigned me to the
station hospital at Fort Benning. That’s the old original type of long term post. And I
really hated it at the time because I wanted to stay with my friends. But that caused me to
have that operation. I had a hernia operation by a doctor from the Mayo Clinic who had
been put in to the Army. And he repaired my hernia. And then I had to heal up from that
when I stayed down in what they call the casual company at Fort Benning and wait for
the proper time for me to go back into another class. My class graduated on May the 8th,
or the 3rd, I forget which, but it was in the first part of May. I went down. I got permission
to go down to their graduation because it was all my friends. On August the 8th I
graduated because I got into a later class.
JB: And this is 1944?
AC: 1944, that’s correct. And so I came on back and I graduated on August the 8th
and went to the 69th. They all went to the 84th --that’s important in what I’m telling you-they all went to the 84th division which had been an old National Guard Illinois rail
splitter division. It was assembly they had, rail split. And they got their commissions and
�A. Lee Chandler
7
immediately started training. I mean being sent to camps in the East and so forth. And
most of them ended up practically all of them ended up in the 84th division, that division
I’m telling you about. And I continued on until I graduated three months later. It was
three months almost to the day between mine and theirs, theirs and mine. And I was sent
to the 69th Infantry division, like they were in the 83rd, and we shipped--they shipped over
not long after we graduated. I mean they didn’t they got in to that 84th division and they
were gone pretty quick.
JB: Did they go to Europe?
AC: They went to Europe and they went to Winchester, England. Which had been
an old regimental barracks. And they--I had a leave of absence that I got because I
wanted to see them off, and I got a leave of absence from my class and permitted it for a
couple of days, and I kind of saw them off. And it was a sad affair really because I had
wanted to be with them. But anyway they went to Winchester, England, and believe it or
not when we went three months later we entered the same old English barracks,
regimental barracks, that they had just left. So we followed right where they were. Which
is unusual. I mean it just happened as a coincidence.
JB: Right.
AC: And so we did final training. We got a lot of map reading, extra courses in
England there at Winchester and we needed more map reading because of the maps they
had of the continent area and everything, where we knew we were going. And on my
birthday, December the 16th, I was taking what was going to be the final weekend pass
we had to London. London is about forty miles from Winchester. And I had had a couple
of passes before, but I mean that was going to be the last one because we were scheduled
�A. Lee Chandler
8
to move out probably within a week or so. But December the 16th is when the Ardennes
Bulge hit. And we didn’t know what would happen but we got back to Winchester and
we learned that there was no way to work us in to it that fast with what the Germans were
hitting with. And so they you know brought Patton’s Army up immediately and brought
in everything they could that was already experienced. And they pulled everything they
could in to it and you know the result of it in the long run what happened. But that kept
us from going over until after the Bulge. One tragedy that occurred, which I didn’t know
at that time, but a classmate of mine who didn’t be in the 84th division, I forget how he
got in to another division, but he was one of our classmates from Sumter, named Jack
James, and on Christmas Eve in the icy waters of the North Sea his ship was torpedoed
and the whole regiment went down. Jack James. His brother, younger brother George
James, died not too long ago, but was one of the most outstanding lawyers we had in the
state when I was you know holding court and things. And that’s just a sad throw-in that
I’m telling you about. And when we got there and got off the LSTs in knee deep water,
the water was freezing then, I mean this is January, coldest winter Europe had had in fifty
years. We landed at Le Havre. Repaired the harbor there some. And we had such cold.
We got on the forty and eight train system and started moving through France. It was so
cold that I had a machine gun platoon of thirty-six men and when we--I don’t know if
you care about all this detail or not--.
JB: No, no that’s good.
AC: But it’s in my head--.
JB: No that’s good, as much as you can.
AC: But I had to figure out a way to keep having frostbite and frozen feet and so
�A. Lee Chandler
9
we hit on it pretty early as we got about three o’clock in the morning on those trains. We
went right in the middle of the night. We got off at Le Havre and soaking wet up to here
knee deep water we went in and got on those trains that were waiting. Forty and eight,
really was literally. Forty horses and eight men, other way around forty men and eight
horses. And we laced my enlisted men like just like this so that this was a man’s hands he
had the feet of his fellow soldier and we just required them to rub all night (rubbing
sound). Until the next morning until the train had kept on moving and we got some relief
from--some of it came we were told from the French, you know small farmer people you
know, they brought blankets and extra towels and things and so then we traveled--.
JB: Tell me about that. How the French treated you know you were just passing
through--.
AC: Our experience with them I’ve heard of others but our experience with them
was all plus, Jack. They--Normandy was a place, you know you cry if you look at that
cemetery, and Normandy was where the people seemed to appreciate it most what the
Germans had been taken out because there were Germans spread in almost every town
and homes and all and they were pretty well oppressed. And so they were the first to get
freed you know after we invaded. But as I say, we came on and that later time in the first
of ’44--first of ’45 that would be, right? Because yeah--.
JB: Right, early ’45.
AC: Early ’45 January and all. And when we were going we went through Spa, a
little place meaning you know resort, that’s where I learned that word. Spa is a word for
resort. And Spa, Belgium is a right large city we went through there and we went right
through Bastogne and as we were moving further beyond Bastogne on either side of the
�A. Lee Chandler
10
road we were going through muddy roads and animals were all up like that they’d been
pulled off the side of the road so we could get through. They were frozen. And then on
each side of the road graves registration was doing their job which they had not
completed at all. And they were stacking American frozen bodies like cord wood. And I
was pretty young myself but I had eighteen, nineteen year old kids on my--and we went
right on through that though.
JB: Tell me how you felt when you saw that--.
AC: Sir?
JB: Tell me how you felt when you saw this--these American bodies stacked up-how your men felt.
AC: It depressed me more than anything I can tell you. You just, when you saw
them going like cord wood, like you stack that, there wasn’t--it was a blessing in it in a
way, I mean they could handle the bodies easier, because it was still freezing.
Temperature was below zero, I mean below thirty-two.
JB: Did you continue that massaging of the feet?
AC: Yeah, we continued it for one more night. And then we had enough extra
towels and things like that that we didn’t have to do it. That’s my recall. Because I know
we weren’t doing it when--and we spent a couple of nights in Belgium in a farm area in
some barns and that was where all the hay and everything was and that was a plus for us.
And then we moved on. We relieved my division relieved the 100th division. The 100th
division. Just beyond the Siegfried line. And we took up positions there. They had had a
right tough time in the Bulge thing but they were relieved by us and by that time the
Bulge had failed and the Germans were retreating and so we took up positions in an area
�A. Lee Chandler
11
called the Eifel, E-i-f-e-l, Eifel area. It’s kind of a word that means it’s real rolling hills
and streams and things like beautiful area, not like a mountain but it was like hills and
that’s where we took up position, defensive position, and relieved the 100th and so we
were shelled by the Germans during that period I mean they would not heavily but we
had a lot of mortar fire shot over from beyond where the hills were on us. And I had one
experience that I don’t see how I got out of it. We lost contact with one of my--we had
the Germans had all left those little villages. They’d moved inland and so we had
complete command of those little villages. And down in the cellar is where I had my CP,
my command post, in one of them. And we lost radio contact through the little lines that
we used in those days. You’d stretch them. It was a direct communication system and we
lost contact. And we had--I had a couple of teams of--I had a heavy machine gun platoon
a forty, twenty, thirty caliber water-cooled that was the so called artillery of an infantry
company. You had, I’m sure you probably know all this, but you had a platoon, two
platoons, of heavy machine guns and Doc Knapke, Knapke, of German descent he had
the other platoon, and I had the first platoon.
JB: How did you spell his name?
AC: K-n-a-I think-p-k-e. Over in Mount Pleasant here you have a Knapke
Boulevard or something. It’s a silent K. Like napke.
JB: Right.
AC: Right near where I live in my retirement place. And so anyway. I was telling
about being real concerned that maybe our reconnaissance, hostile reconnaissance from
the Germans. We were face to face between the hills. And whether they had you know
been ambushed or something really concerned me. So I started. I took my instrument
�A. Lee Chandler
12
corporal with me and we started down the ridge to go down to where on the front part of
that ridge that machine gun had been posted, those two positions. Well you had to walk
on the ridge. That was a dangerous way to do. Cause Germans you know they grew up
fighting and they catch you on a ridge that was just duck soup. But the snows were
beginning to melt then, some on the sides and you couldn’t walk on the back side of a
ridge, which you’d want to. We had to go down the ridge itself. And we got caught, my
instrument corporal and I did, got caught in a deluge of sixty to eighty millimeter mortar
fire. And so we both dropped down and spread apart as much as we could. And I’m
telling you Jack those shells, they were small shells, but they’d come down (sounds) puh,
boom, puh, boom, and they were so close to us I just knew they were going to drop on us.
Dropped on your back you were gone, I mean if it dropped on your leg, you might get by.
That’s what happened to my instrument corporal. He got hit on the leg by one of the
shrapnel from that mortar fire and I did not. And I had to carry him back to the CP and go
back out again. When we carried him to the CP we took him to the first aid station. And
they said he’s got to go back because his leg is broken. That shell had broken part of his
leg. I never saw him again. But anyway, the line, we found a break in the line and
repaired it. So that the machine guns we had out there were ok and--.
JB: So that was the communication line--.
AC: That was the communication line--.
JB: The radio line--.
AC: Strictly communication line. When I would have communication with them
from time to time, the CP, because I wanted to know if anything had happened and then
when we didn’t get any response and that’s when we got concerned and did what I just
�A. Lee Chandler
13
explained.
JB: Right.
AC: But when we found out it was alright then we went through that night but we
had constant mortar fire from them. And that lasted about two weeks and then we there
were the colonel started coming down among us and telling us that we were not long
before going out forward and so we got ready for it. And one of my men, who I was
surprised he did it--deserted; I mean he couldn’t take it. I mean he just took off. But that
was the only one.
JB: What did getting ready for it mean I mean in terms of--.
AC: It meant you had all your ammunition, small arms and the rifle. You had in
each battalion, you had four ABCD, EFGH, and then I and no J, I skipped J, IKLMN and
there were four of those in each battalion, four companies. Or maybe three, I can’t
remember; it’s a long time ago. But anyway, I knew exactly what we had. We had in our
platoon we had three rifle squads and then my machine gun platoon and the other
machine gun platoon. And we had sixty millimeter mortars in that same heavy weapons
company. We called our machine gun heavy weapons company. And they had eighty
millimeter mortars, a couple of those but more sixty millimeter mortars for firing artillery
on the shorter range like what we got caught in. So anyway you got ready and you also
had conversation with your men and you know made them try to make them feel that all
was going to be ok as long as we did what we were supposed to do. And we knew what
we were going to do. We were going to go down that hill, across that stream and take a
hill that the Germans you know were occupying. And so we were here and dipped down
and they were there. They never gave indication that they were going to attack us. They
�A. Lee Chandler
14
were in a defensive posture the whole time.
JB: Were they were on the other side of this stream?
AC: Sir?
JB: Were they on the other side of this stream?
AC: Yes sir. That’s where they were. Down and up and on the other side of the
stream. And so we knew at six O’clock in the morning that we were to go out and all of
our artillery division artillery way behind us, overhead support, they opened up at about
five O’clock and just laid down as much as they could I mean you know up on that hill
where the Germans were. And so we about an hour after that let up, I mean it went on for
about an hour, and then when it let up we moved so as not to be caught in our own fire
artillery fire. And we got up across the stream and our troops moved right on up the hill
and when we got up there the Germans were really laying down a lot of artillery on us
then and they had what they called Screaming Meemee’s. They were a psychological
thing sirens going off and all that kind of thing. Sort of to try you know frightening and
concerned, especially young troops like we were. And so when we got up on the hill our
infantry had pushed them off the hill. And when they got pushed off the hill that’s when
we caught more artillery from them. And we got up on the hill and I knew that we needed
to--the Germans had a, and we were taught this, the Germans had a fixed way of
conducting situations like this. As soon as you would take a position and get them off,
they would counterattack. That was the just like their bible, I mean. And so we needed to
put a--when we got up on that hill then they got the ridge down below that, and we
needed to--and we felt pretty safe to try to move down with our machine guns and put
them on the ridge and make more advance with machine gun fire. You can move them
�A. Lee Chandler
15
back with that. And so the only way to do that was to go across the open space, open field
space and I had to do it. To go down and reconnoiter what I was going to do was
reconnoiter to see what the situation down on the ridge was and then motion them up if it
was feasible. And I got there was no way to do it but to just move as quick as you could
because I was in an open field on the top of that hill. And I never really--I was on the
track team at The Citadel and I tell you, I utilized that all I could. I was a sprinter. But
right in the middle of that field I got hit. I thought my hip was gone. I got hit in the side.
But I noticed that I was able to keep on kind of going. And I did keep on going. I got in to
a small decline place, kind of a hiding place, and I knew I wasn’t going to be able to go
on. And so I looked back and I had my eye glass things and all and I could see the captain
and those back there and I started back, you know because I knew I couldn’t make it
down there and do the reconnoitering because I felt that I couldn’t move this leg it
seemed. So I just started pushing back inch by inch until I did get back. And then I was
evacuated.
JB: How long did that take getting that, to get back how long did that take?
AC: At least five minutes, four or five minutes just kind of inched along, four or
five minutes. So--.
JB: And how were you evacuated?
AC: To the first aid station of our local first and then to a field hospital and then
from the field hospital I was put on a train and of all places to Paris. The American
Hospital of Paris was built in 1938 before the war. A beautiful hospital. And this was
talking about seven or eight years later I mean, you know so it was still a new hospital
kind of. And I was fortunate you know to get to that hospital.
�A. Lee Chandler
16
JB: Now on the initial, after, getting back to the initial first aid station were you
on a stretcher?
AC: Yeah on a stretcher. I was put on a stretcher on the jeep that our medial
section had and they just took off. And got back to there and I had my wound dressed and
they didn’t know, you know the extent of it. They couldn’t tell. I mean I was bleeding.
And so they stopped all that. And I got on the--when I got back to the hospital in Paris
because I was, you know given a real fine hospital room and--.
JB: Did they give you anything for pain?
AC: Oh yeah well--.
JB: That first one--.
AC: All the way I meant to tell you all the way on that evacuation train they
found out that I was not allergic to penicillin. In World War I that’s why we lost so
many--infection. Just didn’t have this penicillin just stopped infection far more times than
it didn’t. And I must have gotten, I know I got several million units. They would come by
on the train and they had a little chart as to when you’d last had it and they’d pump you
with some more penicillin. So I mean that kept me from having an infection. And then
when I began to be treated at the hospital I was continued on the medicines like penicillin
and all. After, I can’t remember how long, but they would come in and look at me and
check at me and one of the doctors finally told me how lucky I was. He said if you had
gotten hit almost any small portion of a fraction more into your hip you wouldn’t have
one. But obvious that you’ve got a glancing. And it was a bullet type thing. It wasn’t so it
appeared to be and, but I’m satisfied it was shrapnel. But anyway after two or three more
months, they made me ambulatory where you could get up and I did see some of Paris.
�A. Lee Chandler
17
For a month or so and then they came back and did the final treatment they wanted to do
on me and was then a month or so after that I was scheduled to go back up to the front.
One thing I forgot, I didn’t forget it, I just didn’t say it. One of the cadets who had been
my roommate for a short period of time towards the end of our time here you got some
people going off to medical school and one thing or another. And so, one of my
roommates was a medical student, retired recently as a colonel in the medical corps. And
you got shifted around a little bit at The Citadel. And I got with a man from Charleston
named E.B. Moore and I roomed with him for about a month. And he was killed in that
first attack and some of the enlisted men knew that he’d been a friend of mine. And he
was a lieutenant in the rifle platoon. And one of them ran over to me before I took off to
try to reconnoiter but he came up to me and he said Lieutenant Moore is killed. (garbled)
JB: So you had just heard that before you got shot?
AC: Yeah, I mean E.B. Moore is listed in on the black bronze plaque on The
Citadel chapel. It’s right there: E.B. Moore. And he had a strange situation. He could
have gotten a, whatever the word was I forget now, words get away from you when you
get to be in your 80s--.
JB: Deferment? Deferment?
AC: Deferment. It meant deferment. I think it was a little more articulated word
than that, but it meant deferment. Just what it did. To go to seminary. He was an
Episcopalian and I was too. And he, and I kept telling him well you know E.B. we’re
going to need priests, too. And he said no but I’m going to do my thing first and then I’m
going to go to seminary. And bless (garbled) it was he was killed right off--E.B. Moore
from Charleston.
�A. Lee Chandler
18
JB: M-o-o-r-e.
AC: Yes, regular Moore name, yes. I never did know him all that well because I
just had him for that short period of time, but he wrote a real nice message in my year
book, you know. I really do hope we’ll be together a whole lot more in the future. He
wrote that in my yearbook before we left The Citadel.
JB: After you left the hospital--.
AC: I went, it took a long time with moving then and it took a long way of
moving from one transportation facility to another. But I mean we could do it. But during
that time that I was on the way back to my position, my company, President Roosevelt
died. And that shook us up some too you know.
JB: Right.
AC: So then as we were moving along, so was the end of the war moving. And
my division, the 69th, met the Russians before I got back. I got back shortly after that, but
they met the Russians on the Elba River. And that was it and we stayed there for maybe
couple more months and-- .
JB: So then when they met the Russians was what just before VE Day?
AC: Right, right. I mean just a matter of days. The Germans, I think, were just
hoping for us to get there. And so our my division met the Russians at the Elba River and
I went down and then we pulled back to a little and they pulled back to a little position
about ten miles West of the Elba. But I took a jeep and went down and you know looked
at the river and everything. The Russians weren’t about to let us if they could help it have
that area. Saxony and Torrengo were the two bread baskets of Germany for farming and
things, but more than that the Germans, I mean the Russians, wanted as much as they
�A. Lee Chandler
19
could have in occupation. And so finally when Churchill, Roosevelt and all of them met
and decided how much of the area that we had conquered that we would pull back and
give to the Russians. The thing was so tense, I guess you would call it, that the Russians
never permitted any fraternization you know with us. And when we would move ten
miles back then the radio communication would say we had moved to so and so, and until
we got out of the area that they were given. And then we took up positions further west.
JB: So was your unit, what were the plans for your unit at that time?
AC: Well it was everybody’s thinking you know you were going to be transferred
you know to the Pacific. And so we pretty well stayed together you know waiting for
that. And then when that happened we and then when the bomb went off.
JB: Right the atomic bomb.
AC: Yeah. Then of course you we pretty well stayed together. And then you know
the point system you could get back. So when I did get back in ’64, excuse me ’46, I had
to start thinking about what I was going to do, what career I was going you know get in to
or what. And I hate to say it, Jack, but I wrote a couple of articles for The Bulldog. It was
the newspaper of The Citadel at the time and I thought well maybe I’ll go into journalism
or something. But I decided in ’46 that I would go to law school. And I went to the
school in September of ’46 and enrolled in the law school. And after I got to be a lawyer I
practiced in Greenville for about five years.
JB: What year did you finished law school? This was at USC? At Carolina?
AC: I actually took the bar before I would have graduated from law school. You
could do that. John West and others did it. Good friends of mine from The Citadel. And
so I got to be a lawyer before I you know was to graduate. I went on up to Greenville and
�A. Lee Chandler
20
started practicing and I did for five years. And my congressman was being opposed that
year by somebody I’m pretty sure he wanted me to, he’d knew I written a lot of things
and he wanted me to come up and help him with his speech writing and all and so I went
up there.
JB: Who was the congressman then?
AC: Bryson. B-r-y-s-o-n. My brother had been his secretary. That’s how I had the
knowledge of him. And my brother went to the Pacific and came out a major. And all
that. But I went on you know to the law school and then after that five years that I
practiced there and did that work in Washington, I thought about going on and getting a
degree the rest of the way, you know at George Washington, and because actually I just
decided I wouldn’t do that. I had a chance to go to Darlington and in 1954 and practice
there with the then Senator Mozingo. And I practiced there for seven years along with
someone named Benny Greer and after seven years we pulled out of there and formed our
own firm. Later I got more involved. I brought some things I don’t know if you’re
interested in them or not. I got, when I was in Darlington, I got involved in a lot of
community activities, as well as in some real big legal litigation. I was chairman of
Darlington Development Board. And as a result of that I brought, was the leader in
bringing four or five real fine industries to Darlington from Chicago and elsewhere. And
I also got very interested in the TEC [technical education centers] program. And so I was
on the first, we combined with Florence, Darlington-Florence, and I was on the first
board of the Florence-Darlington TEC and later was chairman of it. And stayed on it
from until ’42 when I was elected. And then I ran for the legislature and was elected in
’42 and I got off the board.
�A. Lee Chandler
21
JB: Not ’42, it was what ’62--?
AC: I mean--.
JB: ’52--.
AC: I mean, I got off the board, excuse me--.
JB: Yeah.
AC: In ’72.
JB: ’72.
AC: Right see, yeah ’72. And I was in, I also was on the State ETV Commission
from the start. And stayed on it until I--on that and on the tech board at Florence
Darlington--until I was elected to the legislature in ’72. And I was there for two terms. I
didn’t have any opposition after the first term. And in ’76 which was the end of my
second term I was elected. They created eight additional circuit judgeships, and I was one
of them. And then I was circuit judge for ’84, ’70, eight years--and twelve years on the
Supreme Court. I went from the circuit court to the supreme court and then retired. At the
end of my seventieth birthday. Had to. Retired from the supreme court. Two years later I
got kind of tired of playing golf all the time so I entered a vocational deaconate to be a
deacon program here in Charleston. I mean the bishop is here the Bishop Salmon was
here. And so by the mean time my daughter had moved to Charleston. My son-in-law, her
husband, my daughter’s husband, was head of the accounting department at the College
of Charleston. He just retired this year. And so, but they were here in Charleston those
years, until this year, for twelve years. And they live over off Mathis Ferry if you know
that area.
JB: Right.
�A. Lee Chandler
22
AC: And so between my so as I came down here to study in the deacon program
and that was two years and I--we’d come down on the weekends and I’d stay with my
daughter and we’d come down on the weekends, and I thought it was going to be a piece
of cake and it was hard as the dickens. It was. But I did manage to pass the thing. It took
two years. And then I went back up to my parish in Darlington, St. Matthew’s Parrish,
where I had been all that time and was deacon of that parish. And when we moved here
two years ago next month, we moved down here because my wife’s health was pretty
fragile and she had been in an automobile wreck and my daughter was living here and
could help us better instead of having to go up and see her in Darlington. So we and I was
glad to be back down here with my Citadel connections and everything. And it was a
good fit. And so we did come down here two years ago. And it was called, the place we
went to, was called Cooper Hall when we went there, and it was sold out by the time we
got here to the people that they call it The Palms. And so that’s where I live now in
retirement. And so I’ve been around a lot things you know and tried a lot of cases in
court, but always find time to do the--I was active in my church. I was on the vestry and
senior warden and things like that. And I was active in the community. As I said we put
together a development team and I was chairman of it. Going to New York, Philadelphia,
Chicago, wherever and we brought down some real good industries. One of the biggest
industries that Darlington got was Nucor Steel. It’s hard to think of a little county like
Darlington having--probably Nucor is the biggest of all the steel companies now. But
anyway that was one of them--and a gear plant and several others. So, but in my
retirement I’ve you know enjoyed my deacon, I’m now deacon of a parish here in Mount
Pleasant. St. Andrews over in Mount Pleasant. And they asked me to called me and asked
�A. Lee Chandler
23
me if I would be deacon here.
JB: So you’re remaining active?
AC: I certainly have. I’ve got a motto that I’ve it’s hard to stay by it but it’s one I
keep by and that is I send--I’m nutty in a certain way, now people will tell you that
because I’ve never stopped doing anything. One of the things that I knew should have
been done a long time ago. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Colonel Robert Adden.
He’s the head of the business administration or he was.
JB: He’s part of this project.
AC: Sir?
JB: He is part of this project.
AC: Oh, well. I knew that Bob Adden deserved an honorary degree like nothing
flat, Jack. I mean. And even when I was in Darlington. I’ve got to look at you some.
Even when I was in Darlington, I wanted to inaugurate a program, and I’d had to do it
through so many people here, ‘cause I’ll tell you why. Do you want to listen to this?
JB: Sure.
AC: When we decided to come here it just cemented in my head we’re going to
get that honorary degree. Bob Adden, when we were freshmen, sophomores and juniors,
all six of those semesters he made A on every course. Now that’s not like at a liberal arts
school where you can dodge physics and math and things like that, you can take geology
study of rocks, but you have to take the tough courses here as you do at the Military
Academy in West Point. He made A on every single one of those courses. And when you
start here and you have that recruit training period, you’re almost just lucky to stay alive.
You lose about ten to fifteen percent attrition after that six weeks crash recruit training
�A. Lee Chandler
24
program. Bob Adden lived through all that and made A on every course. He made A on
the liberal arts courses. He made A on the science courses. Until he got to be a junior,
which is the year we left. And the easiest course that he had in the business
administration curriculum was called raw materials. Now I wasn’t in that. I was in
political science, but I found this out from the others. And they all told me in the business
that that was the one course that almost everybody could make an A or B in because it
was the easiest course and he made a B in that one course. And I labeled it this way: I
said, “Bob”--when we got in the Army basic training, I said, “Bob I might as well tell you
know you haven’t fooled me a bit. The only thing that exceeds your talent is your
modesty. And you were afraid if you made an A in that easiest course, too, that I’d call
you a bookworm.” That’s a true story. But he did, Jack, he made A in every course and
when he was badly wounded. I need to go back a little bit on the war for this. I got
separated as you heard me say when that hernia hit me.
JB: Right.
AC: They all went to the 84th division. I’ve said that in here. They got caught up
in one of the most absolutely brutal firefights ever. I lost E.B. Moore in the way that I
said. He just happened to be a straggler, a string along man like I was, to get in to the
69th. We lost the best man in our class called Creswell Darlington. Father was a general.
We lost George Browning of Goldville. It was called that then; it’s Joanna now. We lost
Hubie Jones. We lost one after another of my best buddies. And Bob Adden is alive
today. I don’t know whether I should tell this but I know--isn’t there a certain amount of
confidentiality in this now?
JB: We’ll treat it that way. Yes.
�A. Lee Chandler
25
AC: I would on this one. Except that somebody finally pestered him until he
coughed it up lately. The way he’s alive today is that he was in that Siegfried Line fight
and he was badly wounded. The Germans were going along with their burp guns; it’s
hard for me to stay with this now. Their burp guns were used a lot of times to weed out
the wounded and finished them off. And they went around in that area where Bob Adden
was wounded and he had to feign that he was dead. And he never told that until a certain
close friend of his in St. John’s Lutheran Church told it and told it to me in the utmost of
confidence.
JB: Well, actually I got him to tell me that story.
AC: You did? Well, he’s-JB: But you’ve given it a little more detail.
AC: Well that’s the detail--.
JB: He said he was--.
AC: I’ll tell you another detail about the amazing Bob Adden. Why I don’t
worship any human beings but if I did I’d come as close to him as anybody I’ve ever
known. He died. His father was murdered. This can’t go out of here now, while he was in
his mother’s womb, his father was murdered, and his mother raised him from that. And
can you see why I determined to make sure that with his academic excellence with I
knew how everyone raved about him as a teacher that had been alumni after us you see. I
determined to do it and when I got down here I set right to work. And I found out from a
member of the board of visitors. I said I don’t want you to say I’m doing this because I
want your vote when the time comes to decide if this man should get it. I don’t want that.
I have to find out from somebody how what the system is for doing this. What’s the
�A. Lee Chandler
26
procedure. And a man who is on the board, who is a fine lawyer up in Kingstree right
now and was in my court some time when I would hold court and he would try cases. I
knew he was a clean young man. So I trusted him to tell me exactly what you do how you
do it. And he outlined it in detail and I followed that and I immediately got on the
telephone and I can show you my records. I’d love to do it sometime, anytime. I could
show you the procedure I used. First letter I wrote was to General Rosa and I told him
why I was putting that nomination in the pot to get an honorary degree. I knew--they
made a mistake and gave me one way back, so I was chief justice, I mean that didn’t fool
me. I mean I appreciated it, but I knew that had a lot to do with it you know. But Bob
Adden was so modest, that was his only overriding virtue of his talent. And so--.
JB: He is still quite modest.
AC: He is, isn’t he?
JB: He is.
AC: He is. And I love him for it. I wrote that first letter to General Rosa and broke
the ice and told him that there would be other letters coming but that I could say in a
short few words why I would think that Robert S. Adden should have an honorary degree
from his alma mater and I told him. And from that time for about two months he got
thirty-two letters from people who believed that he should have it, too. And each one of
those people following the procedure that the lawyer in Kingstree gave me who’s on the
board. I knew when you had to have them in by. I knew what the criteria was and so
forth. And I followed his instructions to the letter. And I had nothing but absolute people
waving their arms back in reply to me saying, “Why didn’t I think of that before?”
Several of them I mean not everyone, but some of them said that should have been done a
�A. Lee Chandler
27
long time ago. I had twelve fellow cadets like I was that knew him like we did at school.
He helped people on their examinations. In these letters that I’d love for you to see them.
He’d like for you to see them. And several of the letters the person would say I’d doubt if
I had a passed my examinations if he hadn’t helped me at examination time. When he
was a student, he was just brilliant, there was something in his head. I used to say there
was something wrong with him in a joking way, because imagine not having a father,
being raised by a mother altogether and all that and coming in and doing what he’s done.
So I talked to each one of these classmates of ours and I told them what should be in the
letter, what the criteria was and I said send me a copy of the letters so we can preserve it
for a brochure to give to Bobby later. I then turned to his wife, who’s very much aware of
his career. Sometimes a wife is not. But she was. And I got her to give me the names of
people who after my time and our time had appreciated Bob’s teaching excellence. And I
don’t see a thing wrong with your seeing the letters. They--.
JB: Well let me ask you this. Could I get copies of it and we’ll put them in this
archive.
AC: I’ll work with you in any way on that. I’ll do. You know I’ve forced Bobby
to accept the reward he’s getting. I’ve told him, I said I’m out of patience with you know.
I did it in the right way you know. And he appreciates it because he knows it’s genuine.
These letters that you will read, they are better than the letters I got when I got the Durant
Most Effective Lawyer Award. These letters just come straight from the heart. And not
only the ones that were classmates, but I’m talking about the ones he taught. That
relationship was teacher student as you know. I’m not preaching to you Jack, I’m just
having to make sure that I get it out. And people like Perry Earl from Greenville. I don’t
�A. Lee Chandler
28
know if you’ve heard of that name or not but he gave the tennis courts down here. He
was cadet colonel when he was here in class of ’61. He was just thrilled plum to death he
said that if it hadn’t been for Bob Adden, in his letter that he wrote to General Rosa, he
said if it hadn’t been for Bob Adden, I would have never gone to--what do you call the
programs that when you don’t just get a degree, you get a master’s and that kind of thing-and Bob Adden convinced him and he put it in his letter to me and to the General.
Convinced him and he said it almost like he almost had to do it to please Bobby to send
him to the University of Virginia to one of those programs. And he said because of what I
learned in there I was able to set up a bank, and this is in his letter, as soon as I got out of
school out of that master’s program. And that’s just the way Bobby’s been interested in
his students. Interested in every one of them. Supports athletics like nothing mad.
Balanced in all of those ways. And I never. I’ll give you--that thing has been such an
incredible fulfillment to me that I’m going to give you some other letters I wrote. Do you
care?
JB: No, that’s fine. That’ll be terrific.
AC: I had--I don’t know if you heard about this. I don’t see any reason why you
would necessarily but they labeled our class, because we didn’t have a senior year--as
“the class that never was.” I don’t know if you’ve heard that expression. And they didn’t
mean it in a demeaning way--.
JB: Right.
AC: But it had that effect. And I determined to make known what happened to the
class of ’44, my class. And when I begged the authorities, the administration, the Provost
and the President, General and the board, to let me or someone tell the story of what
�A. Lee Chandler
29
happened to the class of ’44, the answer was, “We can’t do that.” They said and they had
a good reason, and I knew that was going to come, but I knew I was going to come again
too. They have a precedent that they won’t allow any supporting comments be made by
somebody who thinks a whole lot of the fellow who’s going to get the degree. They have
to confine it to the president giving it out like it does. And I mean, like I said when I
wrote the provost and I begged him again to let us do what they finally did, I said,
“Understandably, the board does not want to break that precedent because it would lead
to all kind of problems. But this is different because it involves the man who is getting
the degree, the honorary degree, and also was in the class that never was. And we want to
explain why we are not the class that never was.” And it’s amazing, Jack, how short a
time it takes for people that graduate in the years after that not to know much of anything
about this. And there’s a man over at--I’m not--I’m telling you all facts. There’s a man
over there now his name is Bebensee. I don’t know if you’ve heard that name, but he is,
he came as a salvation to me in the end of my campaign to get this thing for Bob Adden
because he was brought in here by Bob Adden as an understudy and he knows everything
that Bob Adden did to increase the quality of the program, better standing with the
association of colleges and all that. He knew that better than anybody. And he helped me
by writing one of the letters and his letter supplied that kind of help. But all of the other
letters that came from alumni just say he was an incomparable teacher, that he was the
best teacher. Now you’ll see them because I think it’s a most unusual thing and I’m just
so happy that we pulled it off. And finally I’m going to show you a letter that I wrote to
the provost as a dead, as a last ditch effort. I wrote him a letter that long and begged him
to rethink that precedent problem. It’s not a precedent when you have the other factors in
�A. Lee Chandler
30
it that we have. That Bobby Adden was in that class. And in this letter and in this letter I
had an interview with the provost. You know those provosts are powerful and I could
read in his eyes that he was sympathetic, but he was sort of like “but there’s nothing I can
do.” But I saw enough sympathy I him just to keep up to get it. And I’ll show you the
letter I finally wrote him. And I think it had a lot of bearing on it and I got Bebensee
who’s the man I just mentioned the name of he-JB: How’s he spell his name?
AC: Bebensee B-e-b-e-n-s-double-e. He lives here, right near by where my
retirement home is right off of Mathis Ferry. And he was rose to be after Bobby to be
Dean of the head of the whole program. He did that for about three years and he said he
wanted to just be part of the keep moving element and so he’s still there but he can get
around and do things that’s he’s not just pinned do to. And he’s a force for just good at
that college. And he used his best offices to sell what I wanted to do to the provost. And
I’m convinced--and I’m going to give you that letter that I wrote to the provost, and I’m
convinced that he probably was the most influential person in talking with General Rosa
and the Board than anybody. I can never adequately tell you the thrill I got when I got a
call from Bebensee who is on--he’s on faculty and the way he is and he was in touch with
them all the time, and I got this call from him not long before the decision was made. I
mean to not let me do it. And he said, Lee they’re going to let you do it. And I fudged a
little bit on the time they said I could have. I didn’t think they’d interrupt me, I didn’t
take but three or four or five minutes, but they wanted two minutes. You couldn’t do it in
two, you could do it in five, not the best you could, but you could do it. You weren’t at
graduation where you?
�A. Lee Chandler
31
JB: No.
AC: I wish you had been because--.
JB: Do you have it written out?
AC: I have a copy of it, I brought to you.
JB: Alright. We will put that in the archive too.
AC: Alright. I brought a couple of other things Jack that I don’t. If you believe I’ll
leave the room if you believe that I want to give you these other things as an
aggrandizement of myself--.
JB: No, no, no.
AC: That I have, but God has blessed me in this way. He’s addicted me to the
proposition that the surest route to disillusionment, depression, failure is to stop moving.
And the bottom of one of these things I’m going to leave with you goes to the 90th
birthday celebration for a great Evans, Chief Justice. He was--they were having a
breakfast for him and it’s in the bottom of what the man said about me on the occasion of
this thing. I’m giving you that to show you why I’m the way I am about just don’t stop
moving. And I got a lot of inspiration from that in that bottom of that nice things he said
about me. Just take the thing, you’ll get to see it when you see it. You’re going to have it
because I’m going to leave it with you. But I’m more interested in your seeing what--.
JB: These are copies right?
AC: These are copies. I’m going to leave them with you. I’m more interested in
your reading what Oliver Wendell Holmes said on the occasion of his ninetieth birthday.
And so when I sometime got to thinking well at your age you ought to slow down a little
bit. Soon as I read what he said on his ninetieth birthday geared me up again at age
�A. Lee Chandler
32
eighty-six next month and few days, I could do the Bobby Adden thing. And these letters
that you will see--I’m going--I just need, I didn’t bring all of them because I’m a little bit
too bashful to try to do that--.
END OF INTERVIEW
Rachel Carr, March 27, 2009
KG, December 9, 2009
KT, December 14, 2009
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jack Bass
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
A. Lee Chandler
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 28 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of A. Lee Chandler, interviewed by Jack Bass, 26 October, 2008
Subject
The topic of the resource
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Description
An account of the resource
Chandler discusses the decision to attend The Citadel and recalls that his family lacked the resources to send him to a North East or Ivy League School. Though he enrolled in ’39, he was forced to delay his education for financial reasons, and became part of the class of ’44. After attending OCS training he was commissioned as 2nd Lt. in the 271st Infantry, 69th Division and served with distinction in the European Theater during WWII. He recounts his combat experiences, including when he was injured in Germany along the Siegfried Line, an incident for which he received the Purple Heart. After returning from the war, Chandler began a civic and legal career, elected to the South Carolina House of Representatives, Circuit Judge, Associate Justice and eventually the Chief Justice of the South Carolina Supreme Court. He has remained active in his community, both through economic development boards as well as in his church. He currently presides as Deacon of his church in Mt. Pleasant, SC where he resides with his wife.
<br />This interview is a part of the "Citadel WWII Alumni History Project." With generous support from the Humanities Council of South Carolina (http://www.schumanities.org/), the Citadel Oral History Program collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23420" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><strong>Access the audio here.</strong></a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/16
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/a2ab754b63aab78174d3e2caab7029d2.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=H00Nleqtskpb0BHFYz35LK1TtBh3xxwusvlSi6KomOOaWZ63Ap4o9gMXzuLAaHaBfJOSAWAiz7TS3p94uCof7WGstvkt%7EybjblPSky7te9pS2qc5zfNMDulNBhZhpYiXQwh9287E356zHKK1vwkYKBF3Y%7EU3WdwxsAfC%7EjAGdkr9f%7EPkti6Vvdn-wncnYJ7UF4-l%7ENdYTJLnbKo1WsCR2Y5shdr3GOEM5W-awftddYtUQNps66QbpWbzRxyzGZ8GV1nvjv3WW2Sy9lYmxJQuZs79P5U28EqP2aKFnjo2oiPmiBr4%7ENfanAXRu7vZwgG0L6sfuM7gy9hmwjrE2o87jA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
4d1ea7b82180e04abe98afecc2620bfd
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – JAMES A. GRIMSLEY
Interviewee: JAMES A. GRIMSLEY
Interviewer: Jack Bass
Interview Date: October 2, 2008
Location: The Citadel Board of Visitors Room
Length: 1 CD; 43 minutes and 45 seconds
James A. Grimsley: All the details I gave in whatever that previous interview was
and just use that as a basis if you want to. And then you can take from that if you want to.
I’ll leave that up to you.
Jack Bass: Right. What I was going to do is we’d just archive them together so the
record will be there. But let me ask you this question first: Tell me how you made the
decision to come to The Citadel as an undergraduate.
JG: I think to simplify, I had an uncle who was a Citadel graduate, Class of 1931.
After graduation he was an engineer and had a job with the Highway Department that
happened to be in our hometown of Florence. He was from Columbia originally and
being in the Depression time, he was last in and first to go when they started cutting
people out because of the Depression. So he moved in with my family who took him in to
give him a place to live while he continued to look for work. The major impact on me as
a ten or eleven year old was that I had to share my bedroom with him (Laughter); I was
less than happy about that but, nonetheless, I got to know him and also he had his
yearbook, The Sphinx Citadel yearbook, and I was fascinated with it. I saw the pictures of
the Army Officers and the Sam Browne belts and the riding trousers and boots and I said
�James A. Grimsley
2
"That's for me." On such weighty matters are decisions made but I determined then that I
was going to The Citadel. It was just built in. There was no pushing by anybody, in fact,
the next door neighbor, the youngest of three or four boys was attending Presbyterian
College and did his darndest to talk me into going to PC, but The Citadel was just
foremost on my mind and my parents supported me in this, and therefore I came.
JB: What did your father do in Florence?
JG: He was with the Railway Express Agency. They were affiliated with the
Atlantic Coast Line, not affiliated, but the Atlantic Coast Line was a major railroad and
Railway Express ran on their line. He was a messenger, as they called it. He was out of
town. He had a run between Florence and Richmond and Florence and Washington, DC
and back. My mother was a music teacher. She taught music the whole time I was
growing up.
JB: So, I know you were a part of that Class of 1942 where I think almost
everybody got their orders to active duty on graduation day.
JG: Just about, that's right. We graduated on May 30, 1942 and went on active
duty on the 4th of June.
JB: And then your World War II experiences were pretty much covered in that
earlier interview, but is there anything that you might want to either reiterate because it
had some impact on you in later life or something that you might have thought of since
that interview.
JG: I don't recall the interview exactly but I'll take an oath that it was factually
correct (Laughter). I do recall that I was fascinated with what I learned about The Citadel
and my experience and so I wanted to go in the Army. So the first chance I had after the
�James A. Grimsley
3
war I went right on active duty as a Reserve Officer. I recall that I was in for, I guess
another six or eight months, and I became engaged to be married in December. In early
November of that year I got word that I was to go to China. General Marshall, George
Marshall, was sending a delegation to China and they were looking for military people to
go with him and I was one of that group. Of course, it sounded fascinating to me but I
said "I'm getting ready to get married, can I take family?" "No, no family. You've got to
go without family." I said "Well, how do I get out of this assignment?" and they said
"Well, you can get out of the Army." So I promptly went down the next day and turned in
my resignation.
JB: So that was in November of 1946?
JG: 1945, November of 1945 and of course, the rest is, I think, known.
JB: And then you spent a few years as a civilian after that, am I correct?
JG: I came back on active duty in 1948. I really tried hard to be a good civilian. I
was a civilian for not quite two and a half years and I tried. I started at $27.50 a week at a
lumber yard in my home town and then became manager of a local gas utility. I got one
of those white collar jobs. But deep down I just missed the army and knew that I really
felt a void in not being back in the army. President Truman, bless his heart, picked up the
gauntlet when the British pulled out of the Mediterranean and the army expanded at that
time. I promptly put in my request for active duty and got it right away. I came back on
active duty in 1948.
JB: Had you been active in the reserves?
JG: Active in the reserves; yes, I stayed in the reserves and was active in the
reserves for several sessions at Fort Jackson and a couple activities in the hometown. I
�James A. Grimsley
4
maintained my currency as best I could.
JB: Tell me what happened after you went back on active duty and leading up to
the experience in Vietnam.
JG: Very briefly, I went to Fort Jackson which was a basic training center and I
was there almost two years. Then I went to the Infantry School, to the Advanced Course,
and from there I felt sure I was going to be packed right off to [South Korea]. That was
when the U.S. began the build-up under President Truman's direction, began the build-up
in Europe. That's when as I recall we sent five divisions over there. I was with the
seventy-seventh Infantry Division at Fort Jackson and it was one of the divisions that
went over there. I got to Europe in that capacity and was there three years. I came back to
the Command and General Staff College and eventually was picked for Vietnam and that
was my first experience, went over of course, without family. It was a one year tour to
begin with but to my chagrin and my wife's chagrin it was lengthened to eighteen
months. I pulled that stint and came back and the rest, I think, is in my biography.
JB: Tell me about the experience in Vietnam. I know you got wounded.
JG: Yes.
JB: Tell me that story.
JG: Well, the first time I was in Vietnam, I was not wounded. When I got
wounded in Vietnam, it was the second time, it was a Japanese machine gun bullet right
through my left arm here, you can see the crook here. That's my Vietnam arm, I call it. It
was permanent nerve damage; you can see the difference in my hands.
JB: Right. That was shot in the first time in World War II, correct?
JG: This was the second time. The first I got hit just above the eye with some
�James A. Grimsley
5
shell fragments and then this happened. There was a third instance where again the left
shoulder was hit. That was later on, on Okinawa. I don't know if I answered your
question or not.
JB: What was going on at the time when you did get wounded in Vietnam?
JG: Well, with me or with the country?
JB: With you and your unit. You were in what capacity at that time?
JG: Well, by that time I was field grade. I was Captain in an Infantry Battalion
and then Company Commander and then Battalion Plans Officer, S3. We were working
with the Vietnamese as advisors, that's what we were doing. I went with an advisory
group, called JUSMAG (Joint U.S. Military Advisory Group). We were not really a unit
then but it was quite a build-up under a noted Army General known as "Hanging Sam"
Williams. “Hanging Sam,” he was almost mean enough to earn that nickname but he had
been the Commander of the units’ right after World War II in Germany when they had
a hanging for some of the Nazi bigwigs. He was in charge of that so he got the nickname
"Hanging Sam." He was my boss for a stretch.
JB: So, were you in an actual battle when that injury occurred in Vietnam?
JG: Yes. Yes. Well yes, I was with the Advisory Group who were with
Vietnamese units; they were not with a U.S. unit.
JB: Okay. So was it in Infantry Combat?
JG: Infantry Combat, yes.
JB: So, in effect, it was the South Vietnamese unit fighting the North Vietnamese.
JG: That's correct, yes. The Viet Cong who were the "VC" as we called them and
they were creatures of the North Vietnamese, yes.
�James A. Grimsley
6
JB: Right, so that was more of the guerrilla operation.
JG: That's correct. Their sanctuary was in Cambodia and they came across the
border to do their thing, now we were not permitted to go into Cambodia; I don't say we
didn't go into Cambodia because you really didn't know whether you were in Vietnam or
Cambodia in the jungle but we didn't deliberately go into Cambodia because we were
prohibited.
JB: So you got hit with what, a rifle shot?
JG: No, no, a shell fragment. Mortar artillery.
JB: So that put you out of commission for a while.
JG: Yes.
JB: Compare a little bit what the difference was in World War II fighting and the
Vietnam War from your own personal experience.
JG: I think the major difference was, in World War II, we knew who we were
fighting. There was no doubt about it. In Vietnam, it made it more difficult because of the
fact that the South Vietnamese were tough little soldiers and very fine little people but for
them it was a civil war because they were fighting enemies on the North. There were two
different cultures. The South Vietnamese, it was always, not paradoxical to me, but it was
quite revealing to me. The South Vietnamese were somewhat like Southerners in the
United States; a little bit laid back a tad, only moving slowly while the North was more
vigorous because it was just different. I don't know that there were ethnic differences, but
difference in the makeup of the people. In the north, the climate was cooler up there; they
were close to China and Hanoi or in Hanoi itself. I noticed that difference.
JB: And then you remained on active duty and, at one point I believe, you got a
�James A. Grimsley
7
Master's Degree.
JG: After a period of time, I went to the National War College. National War
College had an agreement with the Defense Department that we could take additional
courses during our time at the National War College at night, not part of the curriculum
of the National War College, and these courses were credited to the Master's Degree
program. So I stayed on after I graduated from the National War College in May of
whatever year it was for the following summer and completed my Master's work in
International Affairs.
JB: And that was where?
JG: Right in Washington, DC at the Pentagon.
JB: Am I correct that that program was run by George Washington University?
JG: That's correct. George Washington University, it surely was. I benefited very,
very much from the course itself. Then from there, the next assignment, I went to SHAPE
headquarters, then in France, in Paris. Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe we
called it SHAPE. Then in Paris, they moved to Brussels subsequently. It started out in
France.
JB: So there, I presume your wife was with you as well.
JG: Yes, she accompanied me to Europe, yes; and children.
JB: Let me ask you a little more about the SHAPE assignment. Tell me just what
was going on in Europe at the time. What was Supreme Allied Headquarters focusing on
primarily at that time?
JG: Well, the biggest concern then was the Soviet Union or Russia; still very
much a threat at least a perceived threat and of course they had their allies in East
�James A. Grimsley
8
Germany, so things were tense along the border between France and Germany. We had to
pay attention to what was going on. General [Lyman] Lemnitzer was the Commander of
SHAPE at the time which was giving most of its attention to what was going on with the
potential conflict with the Soviet Union or Russia.
JB: So really the third situation for you in a sense, was the Cold War?
JG: Yes, that's right.
JB: And you were engaged, primarily, in what capacity at SHAPE?
JG: At SHAPE, I was with the Plans and Operations division, didn’t have a troop
assignment.
JB: Right.
JG: SHAPE itself didn't have any troops except for the housekeeping type troops.
I was with the operating element of SHAPE headquarters.
JB: Explain to me in terms, at that time, SHAPE's role. Was it in just being
prepared for any emergency or keeping an eye on things or, how would you define it
from your experience?
JG: No, General Lemnitzer had much more authority than that. He, in effect,
would assume control of all U.S. forces in Europe in case of conflict. He did not have
control over them during the time. We had a Commander in Chief U.S. Army Europe,
and Air Force, and I’m sure the Navy had equivalent headquarters. So those component
headquarters were there. SHAPE would have served as overall headquarters in case we
went to war with Russia or the Soviet Union.
JB: Tell me how you ended up coming to The Citadel in your first capacity,
returning to The Citadel, really.
�James A. Grimsley
9
JG: Well, I was back in The Pentagon and I knew I was about to come up for
reassignment--didn't know where and I was ready to get out of The Pentagon. I was in the
operations side of things. It was a good assignment; long hours, typical bureaucratic
minutiae always in any big headquarters. I was approached by, let’s see (Pause), I am
getting my eras mixed up here. Oh, I volunteered from SHAPE to go to Vietnam. That's
when I went for my second time; that's what I was trying to think of. That’s when I came
back from there and then went to Europe again.
JB: And then did someone at The Citadel contact you or did you learn of--?
JG: That's where I wanted to pick up your question. Yes, The Citadel contacted
me and knew that I was due for reassignment and wondered what I thought about getting
out of the service and coming to The Citadel. It was like a cold shower because it was so
unexpected. But I talked to my wife; I'd had thirty-three years in by that time, counting
the reserve time that I was off right after World War II. So I said, "Yes." So I was asked
to come down and I retired. I came down one October of whatever year it was as vice
president here. The president of The Citadel is the one who contacted me, a classmate of
mine, General Seignious, George Seignious. I came down and he, fortunately--the reason
I took the job was because I was academic dean, vice president was the title but academic
dean was in charge of the academic side. I had everything else under me so I had a full
plate and it was a brand new world for me because I had never been associated with a
college other than as a student. I had everything to do with the administrative side of the
college plus dealing with the alumni and all those things. So it was a full time opportunity
and a full time experience and I enjoyed it.
Then in due course, General Seignious resigned, he got married again and was
�James A. Grimsley
10
concentrating on getting married. I was kind of running The Citadel for him, which, by
his admission, he knew. He was my boss and I made sure I always remembered that. That
was no problem because we were close friends anyway. Then when General Seignious
resigned from The Citadel and went to Washington, I believe, to live. The Board of
Visitors came to me and asked me if I would accept the position and I did, it was
understood, on probation of August whatever year and in December I was asked to take it
full time, which I did and stayed on for the rest of the time until I retired from the college.
JB: Tell me how the World War II experience and the subsequent Army career
prepared you for the presidency of The Citadel, as well as being a graduate, of course.
JG: Yes. I think the preparation was (Pause) I think it was in learning how, as an
army officer on active duty and dealing with troops and all the multitude of
responsibilities that handled; it transferred or translated over to do it in running a college
except you didn't deal with soldiers; you dealt with college students, in this case, Citadel
cadets. I think it was made easier for me coming to The Citadel because it was a military
college so there was a structure here that I understood. They just wore cadet uniforms and
not army uniforms. But the structure was easy to fit into and so that made the transition-I'm not sure--if I had gone to a strictly civilian institution, I would have had more
personal hurdles to overcome than coming to The Citadel because I knew the college, I
knew the system and I think, with becoming modesty, the college knew who I was and
what I had done and therefore that side made it easier for me.
JB: Now, I know there were a number of accomplishments made during your
presidency here but I'd like for you to just tell me about some of them and what they
were. What was going on during that, was it eight years, nine years--?
�James A. Grimsley
11
JG: Nine years.
JB: That’s what I thought.
JG: Well, I don't want to try to be too lengthy, I won't be lengthy at all. The
biggest contribution, I think, was to restore the role of the Corps of Cadets and those who
dealt with the Corps of Cadets. By that--the college had forgotten--I'm not throwing
stones or anything--not a lot of attention was being given to the Corps. A lot was thrown
to the Commandant, who was fine; he was, at that time, appointed by the army and
double in brass. He was the Commandant of Cadets but also head of the Army ROTC. I
pushed hard and was successful in making that position a retired capacity for the
individual and let the army colonel do his thing with the ROTC. Well, the army was
delighted with that. They didn't want their guy dealing with the affairs of the Corps in an
administrative capacity. So, I think that was, to me, was the first, and I think one of the
biggest things. It took a little doing to get that done, overcoming the old syndrome of
"this is the way we've always done it," you had to fight through that. I think putting the
Corps first; I tried to enhance the status of the Corps within the college framework itself.
That sounds paradoxical because everybody loves The Citadel, loves cadets but it was not
always at the forefront of thinking. So I did try to push that, not only within the Citadel
family itself but to the outside world. The third was, I worked very hard at and I must say
I think it did some good, in getting The Citadel involved in the community. George
Seignious didn't care about that. It didn’t mean he ignored the community but he didn't
see there was any advantage to that. Well, I took an entirely different view of that. I felt
that this was a state institution. I felt we had a lot to offer. It had been in Charleston since
its founding in 1842 or whatever it was, and I felt we should promote ourselves in the
�James A. Grimsley
12
community. Not just in Hampton Park right outside the gates here, but in all community
affairs: get the people [Corps] involved, faculty involved--worked hard at that. I think
those are my major contributions above the usual. I think I had a successful tenure but I
think these are the highlights.
JB: Tell me, what was the most difficult part of that job?
JG: (Pause) I think the most difficult part was dealing with the faculty, not dealing
with the faculty themselves, but faculty matters and keeping that in its perspective. I had
to continually remind myself and remind others that, first of all stripped of all rhetoric,
The Citadel is a liberal arts military college. A liberal arts college with all of that
connotes and I don't have to explain that to you. With the military side thrown in, the
major component of its makeup, of its raison d’être or whatever you want to say, so I
think the most difficult part was keeping that in the forefront and reminding not only
ourselves here but also within the community itself. I think we did a pretty good job at it.
JB: Was there any kind of internal reorganization during that period on the
academic side?
JG: None. None significant to my knowledge. As I recall, no, the academic
departments were--I think one new one was created; I'm trying to think whether it was-I'm trying to recall--there was one additional department created during my time but I'm
afraid I've forgotten what it was. The academic dean and I, well I worked with two of
them; fine gents, both of them were dedicated professionals. One was a Citadel graduate
and one was not which to me was not important. The one who was not was as dedicated
to the principles of the college as his predecessor in the job. But, I met with them daily
because I counted on them to keep me informed as what was going on in the academic
�James A. Grimsley
13
world. I felt I was responsible for what went on but at the same time, I didn't run the
academic side. I figured that was why I had a high paid vice president to do that, the
academic dean. So I think what I had to do, most of all to keep that in [perspective]; it
proved difficult at times to get done. But, we got it done.
JB: As a state institution, of course, The Citadel gets its appropriations by vote of
the legislature.
JG: Yes.
JB: And so, how much time did you spend dealing with legislators or legislative
relations?
JG: In the overall balance of time, not a lot of man hours but there were periods of
time, for example, during budget hearings I was responsible to go up [to Columbia] and
did, and do my appropriate staff backup. I was carrying the torch to make my case to the
General Assembly, to the Legislature, and to the appropriate committees thereof of who
we were, what we were and why we needed the money we did. I explained to them why
each year I asked for a jump and why was that when the strength of the Corps remained
roughly the same. But, I had to make sure that I painted the picture of what was going on
down here, what we were producing with our programs and all. I've always felt we got
our fair share out of the budget pie but it was a time when I had to keep my fingers on a
lot of things just to make sure that the legislators knew what was going on. I dealt mostly
with the local delegation of legislators from the Charleston area as points of contact. I
was in Columbia not only with the legislature but with the Commission for Higher
Education which was a creature established during the time I was at The Citadel, which
monitors all of the activities of all the academic institutions, that is, the college
�James A. Grimsley
14
institutions. I spent as much time with them as I did with the elected legislature. So I was
in Columbia two or three times a month at least, maybe more depending on what was
going on.
JB: Looking back on that experience, did you find that it was advantageous for
you being a native of the state?
JG: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Being a Citadel graduate helped, too. To put it very simply,
there's not always advantages--I've said so many times--I know some, I can always recall,
one of the members of The Board of Visitors, The Board of Trustees but we called them
The Board of Visitors, came to me and had strictly a cornpone accent and he said "Alec,
so-and-so wants a job at The Citadel; now you know he's a good Citadel man and he's a
good man for the job." Well, I knew all the Board by their first names, so I said, "Well,
Buddy; I know who you're talking about." And I said, "If all of what you say is true about
him, I won't say this is--and I'm not referring to him when I make my statement." But I
said, "But I know some Citadel men I wouldn't give you a nickel for a room full of. Just
the fact that they're a Citadel graduate doesn't qualify them for sainthood." So I had to get
that point across as an indicator, then it had to go beyond that. In this particular case, he
was dead wrong. Well, the Board member was very taken back, I shook him a little bit
and he wasn't very happy which didn't bother me. But, I did have that dealing with the
Board.
JB: If it had not been for World War II and your experience during that war, do
you think you would have still been a career military man?
JG: I think it was--yes--I think it was from the times I told you when this uncle of
mine had those riding boots and the riding britches or trousers and the Sam Browne belt;
�James A. Grimsley
15
I took it as a signal light. But even so I think it was something in--I can recall I've got
some little pictures at home where I had a little soldier suit my father gave me--he was a
World War I veteran--a little soldier suit, I had a little flag on a little piece of stick.
Always instinctively, I had this. Just as an aside, I have two sons and a daughter. All
three are very successful, I'm very proud of my children. The oldest son, a Citadel
graduate, went in the regular army and deep down, which I didn't really know, always
wanted to be a lawyer. Five years in the army, James said he was going to get out of the
army and go to law school. I said, "Don't you want to be an army lawyer?" He said, "No.
I'm either in the army or not. I don't want to be in the army as a lawyer." So he did. He
went to law school, has his own law firm down in Beaufort. Number two son came along
some years later, eleven years later to be exact, from number one boy, with a sister inbetween. He went to Davidson College. He said he wanted to go somewhere where the
name "Grimsley" is not known. So I said, "Fine." So he went to Davidson College, which
is a fine institution. Of course, he picked one of the most expensive ones to go to
(Laughter). I said, "Wherever you're going, you are going to ROTC" and he said, "Yes,
sir." He said, "That doesn't mean I'm going in the army." I said, "I didn't say you're going
in the army but you're going to the ROTC." So he did and the next thing I know, lo and
behold, he graduated and immediately applied for a regular army commission; one under
a graduate program and was awarded a regular army commission and now he's my
general officer in Iraq. That just shows how things turn out for--. But, I think,
instinctively in my younger son there was always this thing--I could tell, I always said he
was going to be my little soldier. I could tell just by his makeup and actions although I
didn't influence him, my goodness, I assure you I didn't have to. So, there's something
�James A. Grimsley
16
instinctive about it; I guess in all professions; some youngsters want to be doctors all
along and they are.
JB: General Grimsley, what questions have I not asked you?
JG: (Pause) Well, you could ask me saying, "Reflecting, looking back, if you had
a running movie here of scenes of going back fifty years or however many years it is,
would I do again?" Yes, I would do it exactly the same all over again. The one thing I
probably would not have done again, is gotten out. I've often said I lost two years during
that period. I lost seniority and at the same time, the advantages--I got the civilian bit out
of my system. I tried it, didn't like it. I got that out of my system so--because I can
counsel very much--I can recall numerous occasions when young officers would come to
me, "Sir, I'm unhappy. I just think I want to get out." I said, "Now, wait a minute. Let's
talk about it. Here's when you get out and here's what's going to happen. That grass is not
all that green in a different world. Just think through on this thing." I could advise them
on getting out was not a panacea for their--if a youngster was a good officer and I knew
that he was it might have been that his wife was unhappy in the service and he was trying
to see about getting out and maybe still wanted to stay in. I could speak from experience
that getting out didn't solve his problem so I guess that was a plus. Except for that
advantage, I think if I had to do it all over again, I'd do exactly what I did except I
probably would not have gotten out. I would have stayed in; knowing what I know now,
of course.
JB: So you think you may have taken another assignment in December,
November rather, of 1945.
JG: I could have, yes (Laughter). That's right. Because we eventually ended up
�James A. Grimsley
17
there anyway, you see.
JB: Right. General Grimsley, I feel we haven't really covered it in one sense but,
in another sense, I think we've covered the highlights because one, you have such an
organized mind and get right down and focus on situations. But any stories, particularly
the time when you were at The Citadel as an undergraduate that you recall that impacted
you during your subsequent career.
JG: (Pause) Oh, I think so. I think having made a mistake or two or three during
my cadet time I had a successful career at The Citadel. I ended up as a company
commander and that was fine with me. I was very happy with that. My senior year, I
came close to being busted, reduced in rank to use a proper term. My classmates, senior
classmates, the regimental commander [Alvah Chapman] and [my battalion commander]
George Seignious, and a third one, Fritz Hollings who was a graduate and a classmate.
Three of them came to my rescue with the administration and the Commandant so instead
of being busted or reduced in rank and walking tours, I sat in the barracks for six weeks
serving confinements through the most beautiful part in Charleston, the spring of the
year: April, May. My friends were all on the beach chasing girls and I was in there sitting
up in my room on weekends fussing at myself. But that experience, though, was very
helpful and I didn't know it at the time, in my subsequent active duty days when I had
run-ins with superiors and thought I was right. Whether I was right or wrong, it didn't
matter. You know who's going to win those battles. I had to take my licks in and got
chewed out properly and I did the proper thing. I said, "Yes sir." and "No, sir." and just
took it. So I think my Citadel experience helped me in that; that's the kind of experiences
you don't want to have but I'm an optimist by nature so I always looked at the bright side
�James A. Grimsley
18
of things, so maybe it did help.
JB: Did you find that you were treated differently when you went on active duty
as a Citadel graduate. I know you've talked about how, you know, a lot of these fellow
officers in those initial months had come out of non-military school ROTC units.
JG: Yes. OCS. They came through OCS and all that. Yes, I had to be careful. If
people knew I was a Citadel graduate every now and then I'd get a commander who
would rather sarcastically remark "Citadel playboys from Charleston and your fancy
uniforms" or some comment like that. We just took it and listened. I didn't run into that
too much. Occasionally that negative side would come out depending on who the
individual was making the comments. By and large though, when somebody learned I
was from The Citadel, particularly in the earlier days, I felt was given assignments based
on the fact that this needs some organization or we've got to get this done, let's see what
Grimsley can do with it. I think I got some assignments, not assignments of the job, but
given tasks to fulfill based on that. I think The Citadel imprimatur helped in that regard.
JB: Is there anything else we haven't covered?
JG: No, I don't think so. You've been pretty exhaustive here (Laughter).
JB: Well, you've been a good subject to interview, General Grimsley. So I just
want to thank you very much.
JG: Well, I thank you, sir, for your time. I appreciate it.
END OF INTERVIEW
Tammy Davis, October 11, 2008
SDK, October 17, 2008; February 24, 2009
�James A. Grimsley
JB, October 20, 2008; March 4, 2009
JG, November 28, 2008
KT, December 15, 2008
19
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jack Bass
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
James A. Grimsley
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
43 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of James A. Grimsley, interviewed by Jack Bass, 2 October, 2008
Subject
The topic of the resource
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Description
An account of the resource
Major General James Alexander Grimsley was born in 1921 in Florence, South Carolina. After graduating from The Citadel in 1942 he was commissioned 2nd Lieutenant in the US Army. He served for thirty-three years and finished his Army career as the Director of Security Assistance Plans and Policy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Among his thirty-five major decorations are Two Silver Star medals for gallantry in Action; four Bronze Star medals for Valor; four Legion of Merit awards; and three Purple Heart medals. In September 1975, Grimsley accepted the position of Vice President of Administration and Finance at The Citadel and five years later was named the 16th President of the military college. Upon retiring in 1989, the Board of Visitors named him President Emeritus, a position held only by Generals Charles P. Summerall and Mark W. Clark. Grimsley, reflects on his decision to attend The Citadel and his combat experiences in Vietnam. He also discusses several of his major achievements as Citadel President. On transitioning from the Army to The Citadel, Grimsley observes that “it was made easier for me coming to The Citadel because it was a military college so there was a structure here that I understood. They just wore cadet uniforms and not army uniforms.” In an April 4-6, 2000 interview, a transcript of which is at the Citadel Archives and Museum, Grimsley detailed his active duty service during WWII.
<br />This interview is a part of the "Citadel WWII Alumni History Project." With generous support from the Humanities Council of South Carolina (http://www.schumanities.org/), the Citadel Oral History Program collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23419" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><strong>Access the audio here.</strong></a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/17
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/6d869feb3888ff3c13cf1bd947fc6d2c.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=iE25zNMLBqAi%7Emyp2LI0wmXUuox2VB7lxv9271jMZB7VVIsmtdJkxKFg0i7zUQ4DRadHp%7ECLnWcNieAt9dEXTSwfHtr2QmTZ9SexS3s6KfUW4aiu9DhUF%7EcxkwiUOb3pZGxKIDeLlELyzHVFfZq8c9pUkvKGC0fQypibil02kHCAT8XFE6hh1zALSvJxY6%7EXJzMQ8HWqZ403FjewzYLZCl1JWVW7SFhAA1mCr87I0lxWXYoB9gP0untu3QqHHujJkNSp%7EoWpQRi%7EVuPp1B%7Ekv%7EyX1gY6PXBQeFk7iNx2b63nkN6HecLOpvPv5ybVZYjE9K7Yh13Yx8STek-Mr8xl7w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
970501afb2489ea38c4f52df476457b6
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – ADRIAN WILLIAMS
Interviewee: Adrian Williams
Interviewer: Kieran Taylor
Location and Date: September 5, 2009
Length: 81 minutes, 52 seconds
Kieran Taylor: Just tell me your name and when and where you were born.
Adrian Williams: Adrian Nicole Williams. I was born in Charleston, South
Carolina, September 27, 1971.
KT: 1971. Just is it--Nicole is your middle name? N-i-c-h--.
AW: N-i-c-o-l-e.
KT: N-i-c--.
AW: O-l-e.
KT: And your last name is?
AW: Williams
KT: Williams, okay. So you were born in ’71. Tell me just a little about your,
whereabouts did you grow up? What neighborhood?
AW: I grew up, the first five, six years of my life, I grew up on Johns Island,
South Carolina and that’s where my family is from. And after that we moved on the
projects, which used to be called George Legare, and that was on Rivers Avenue. I lived
up there from seven to nine--.
KT: What were they called?
AW: George Legare.
�Adrian Williams
3
!
KT: And now they’re--.
AW: Horizon Villages.
KT: Okay.
AW: Yeah, so that was a long time ago. And from--we moved around a lot-‘cause it was just me, my mom, my brother, and my sister. So my mom was a single
parent. But we moved from there to Ten Mile, which is on Rivers Avenue and from Ten
Mile, the rest of the time; I grew up on Remount Road until she met my stepfather. But
growing up for me was no means easy, not at all. I, um, was sexually molested from the
age of five until I was fourteen by every person that my mom has ever brought into my
life, I kid you not. Um, she didn’t know. And if she did know, she didn’t let it bother her.
So, I mean, that’s what got me to the way I am today. I am a very outspoken person. I say
what’s on my mind because when you have been through so much when you were little
and had no voice and when you get older, you just speak up. So, I’m not the one to just
sit back and just let things happen to me. I may not think before I speak (laughter), but it
just comes out. I’m not gonna let you walk over me. I'm not gonna let you do things to
me that I don’t think is fair. So that’s what brought me to this.
KT: So you asked me if this interview was going to be personal and, I didn’t
expect right off the bat--.
AW: That’s because it doesn’t, it doesn’t bother me.
KT: Right.
AW: It used to because I held it in for so long, but now that, because, hell, I mean
I tried to commit suicide in 2007. So, I mean, to me, I have been through it all. There's
nothing that no one can do or say to me that can even break me. It, it can’t happen.
�Adrian Williams
4
!
KT: Is there a time when you figured out that that wasn’t right?
AW: When I got pregnant with my daughter at fifteen and I told my mom because
from the age of nine until I was fourteen it was actually the man that she married. And
she knows now. Little things that I would tell her that happened she would just pass off,
not say anything.
KT: She didn’t want to hear it
AW: She didn’t want to hear it. But I told her when I got pregnant. I said, “If he
touches my daughter, I’m going to kill him.” And that was that. That’s when I knew what
was going on, and what was wrong.
KT: By you having your daughter and just knowing that and then articulating that
demand was when you were first able to--.
AW: Have my voice (Speaking at same time).
KT: (Speaking at same time) to really understand how messed up that whole thing
was.
AW: Exactly, exactly.
KT: Who were the sources of strength for you? You know during that time. I
mean there must have been some positive--.
AW: My daughter, my daughter--.
KT: But even before the birth of your daughter. I mean did you have grandparents
or anyone--.
AW: It was just me. It was just me. I would go over to my relatives’ house, but
none of them knew what was going on, so. My sister barely lived with us. She basically
wanted to stay with her dad, so it was just me and my brother.
�Adrian Williams
5
!
KT: Were you a quiet child? Did you try to, like internalize all that--.
AW: (Speaking at the same time) I was. All that stayed in. Everything stayed in.
And I guess that, I was just real rebellious. After all that stuff started happening, I was
real rebellious. My mom couldn't tell me to do this without me telling her, “no.” I would
go out whenever. So, I mean it was a little bit internal and a lot of external.
KT: Well, why not if she couldn’t protect you, why would you listen?
AW: Right. I wouldn’t listen and I didn’t listen. I did not listen. And once she
really realized what was going on, she actually put me out. At fourteen, she put me out. I
had a place to stay, it was with her best friend, but she put me out for a year and right
then, I was, like, wow, so you chose him over me?
KT: A criminal.
AW: The person who was hurting me. You chose him over me? And I, but it all
came to light. We went to-- he went to court and everything because I went to Florence
Crittenton [Florence Crittenton House] when I was pregnant with my daughter. And it all
came to light, and, he had to go to court and what not. But they didn’t do anything to him
because they said it stopped so long ago. He just had to take counseling. That’s it.
KT: But you did press charges eventually.
AW: They didn’t, they say they couldn’t do anything. They said because it
happened from nine to fourteen, I didn’t let anybody know until I was sixteen.
KT: Right.
AW: So, they say it was so long ago, so all they did was counseling. And when
they put me in counseling, this lady that came over, I didn’t feel comfortable with her.
KT: Yeah.
�Adrian Williams
6
!
AW: So, I didn’t talk to her. And she was like, “Well, I see you’re not gonna help
me do--.” I was, like, look this is something that I just can’t talk to you about it. I wasn’t
ready to talk to anybody about it--. So, I didn’t say anything. Nothin’ ever came out until
I got older and when I tried to commit suicide and I finally went to therapy. And I went to
therapy and I talked to Amanda. I loved Amanda, she was really nice. She--.
KT: Who’s Amanda?
AW: My therapist at Charleston Mental Health. She was really, really nice. And
she helped me to see. She said, “Adrian, if things aren’t going right,” she said, “You have
the power to change it.” She said, “There’s a lot of destructive behavior that you have, I
see (laughter). I said, “I know.” My God, I was a weed addict. I used to smoke weed
every day! (laughter) I smoked weed every day! (laughter) All day!
KT: From what age to what?
AW: From, I started smoking weed like at twenty-four and stopped, what, at
2007, so that’s about twenty-four, 2000, that was what two, 2009, two years ago.
KT: So what the better part of ten years?
AW: Yeah, wow. I went to bed smoking’ in, I woke up smoking’ it. Hell, I
smoked on my lunch break. I smoked on my drive home (laughs). Like that was my
coping mechanism--.
KT: Right.
AW: When you gettin’ high, it’s like nothin’ don’t bother you. Nothin’ bothers
you at all. I just smoked all day long; all day, every day. I always made sure I had a job
where I didn’t do drug tests and if I got a drug test, I got my daughter, “Pee in this for
me.” (laughs). I'm serious!
�Adrian Williams
7
!
KT: What, what about, what about school?
AW: School, I graduated from, actually, I bounced around, I started at, I forgot
the name of the school, but they was a school over there at Georgia Green—Ben Tillman
Elementary, I started there and, then I went to North Charleston Elementary because I
moved around so much, and then I went to Norma C. Toole and from Norma C. Toole to
Morningside, from Morningside, I went to North Charleston High one year and then I
went to go live my aunt and uncle on John’s Island. If I didn’t go live with them, I
wouldn’t have finished school--. “Cause my mom was, like, she would come in and wake
me up and be like, “You goin’ to school?” “Nope.” Close the door. My, I went to my aunt
house, she said, it you ain’t sick or dead, you goin’ to school (laughter). So, that was the
only way I graduated high school. I had to leave out the house to graduate high school.
KT: So you graduated from- -?
AW: I graduated from St. John’s High in ’91. I was two years behind because in
sixth and seventh grade, I was a bad ass-- I didn’t listen to teachers; I didn’t care what
they said--.
KT: But you, I would imagine you were just a little thing--.
AW: Ah, yeah, I was tiny. I was little. And they just looked at me like this girl
with all this mouth--.
KT: A bundle.
AW: I was awful. I really was awful. Looking back now, I was like. If I could see
those teachers, I’d be, like, “I'm so sorry!” (laughter). I really would tell them that I was
so sorry because I was awful. I mean, I wasn’t, like, mean. It was just that I was, like,
mouthy. I was really mouthy. Respectable, but mouthy--.
�Adrian Williams
8
!
KT: How did--. Were there any classes that you did, excelled in, or enjoyed?
AW: English was my favorite class and I had this one teacher at North Charleston
High; her name was Miss Whiteside. I loved that lady. She was so good at helping with
that. I think she is one of the reasons why that I started reading so much. And so I read a
lot, I write poetry. It’s like, I had to learn how to express myself, so I just express myself
through my poems. So that’s what I do. I got journals all over my house that’s got poems
written all over this page, that page, any piece of paper. If it just comes to me, I write it
down--So that’s what I do.
KT: Did you think about going to college after graduating?
AW: I went to; actually I have a cosmetology license. But that got boring; I didn’t
want to do that anymore. I went to Trident Tech. I have a couple of credit hours and I was
supposed to have gone back, but it got kind of difficult to go back because I got married.
You know my kids and everything. I'm trying to go back now, but it’s difficult.
KT: If you’re working straight days, but, do you have little ones now?
AW: I have a twenty-one-year-old and a twelve-year-old.
KT: Okay, okay.
AW: So.
KT: Yeah, well--.
AW: I mean, I can go back, it’s just, it’s just, finances is one thing, ‘cause the
only thing I apply for is the lottery. Everything else, I would have to pay. I don’t have the
money for that.
KT: Yeah. It’s only going to get more expensive this coming year--.
AW: I can’t afford it. I want to go back, so--.
�Adrian Williams
9
!
KT: What would you study?
AW: I want to study psychology. I want to help kids-- With what I went through.
I believe that that is my talent that God gave me. He didn’t put all this on me for nothin’.
This happened for a reason, you know, because, if I hadn’t been able to endure it, who
could I tell my story to? What child could I not help? So, I believe that all of that that
happened to me happened for a reason. It just made me a better person.
KT: You know, I don’t know hardly anything about psychology, but I have heard
of these programs where people blend their--.
AW: (speaking at same time) Real-world.
KT: (speaking at same time) Their interests in literature, poetry and psychology.
Using poetry as therapy. I guess, like, you do in some ways, but that sounds to me like
the perfect sort of match for you--.
AW: And that’s what I--.
KT: Skills and interest--.
AW: That’s what I want to do. Eventually, I’ll get there. It may not happen now,
but I’ll--.
KT: So, then, what did you do after high school?
AW: After high school, I went from. What did I do after high school? I sold drugs
for a little while.
KT: Okay (laughter).
AW: That didn’t work out too well. That scared me a bit--.
KT: Over on John’s Island?
AW: Nope, in North Charleston. I-- I left John’s Island and came back to North
�Adrian Williams
10
!
Charleston. So then, I sold drugs for about a year until I got the scare of my life. I used to
be the only girl with these five guys. I used to drive a Monte Carlo ’87, 1988, Monte
Carlo. So, it was the first SS before the SS body style came out. I had it all blacked out. I
had (laughs) the car was black, inside was burgundy. The windows was so dark, you
could not see inside.
KT: That wouldn’t attract any police, now would it?
AW: Aw, yeah (laughter). I had a system in there so loud; it would be when you
were rolling down the street, people be looking like, “What was that?” And it’s just me,
the girl, that’s my car. And I’m out there doing my thing. And I used to live in this
apartment and I was working for Wal-Mart at the time, too because this was around ’93,
yeah, ’95 to ’98, yep, ’95 to ’98. And I’m working at Wal-Mart, doing my little thing, my
little hustle and police came through the apartment complex where I lived at by that it
was a total of six police officers, three cars. I didn’t know any of this ‘til the next
morning. And my girlfriend says, “Adrian, what did you do?” And I say, “What you
talkin’ ‘bout?” Say, “You know, police is all over your car, standin’ on the hood, lookin’
in the car,” They knocked on the apartment door, but they knocked on the wrong
apartment door and had they had came to my house, you wouldn’t be talkin’ to me, I’d be
in jail (laughs). I would be in jail (laughs). So that scared me, I was like, okay--.
KT: You had a lot of stuff on you?
AW: Wow, I had it hidden all over. I said, “Adrian, you better wake up. You got
your five-year-old in here. All this stuff in here. You ‘bout to go to jail and your daughter
about to go to foster care, so that made me wake up. And I haven’t touched selling stuff
since the – I can’t say stopped smokin’, but (laughs) I haven’t sold--I haven’t put my
�Adrian Williams
11
!
hand on dope since then--.
KT: Was that hard to get out, was that hard to leave it, though?
AW: No, it wasn’t hard--.
KT: ‘Cause you were part of a team--?
AW: I was part of a team, the only girl, but it wasn’t hard, ‘cause--.
KT: They let you out?
AW: They just, it wasn’t that hard for me. I just got rid of what I had and that was
it--.
KT: Right, but there was no expectations- they didn’t like--?
AW: No.
KT: I don’t know, I would guess that sometimes that it gets hard to leave ‘cause--.
AW: It can get hard--.
KT: Because people can get nervous about who you’re going to talk to--.
AW: Yeah, and then you miss the money I miss the money the most. Boy, I miss
the money.
KT: Were you making good money?
AW: I was making very good money. Very (laughs) good money. I didn’t have to
worry about what bill was being paid, what bill was not being paid, my daughter stayed
fly, I stayed fly, house had food in it so--.
KT: Did you ever feel any twinge of guilt? Like I--this is messin’ up--.
AW: Somebody else’s life?
KT: Yeah.
AW: Hmmm, nope, because I sold what I smoked. I smoked weed, I sold weed. I
�Adrian Williams
12
!
didn’t sell crack cocaine, I didn’t sell cocaine, heroin, none of that. It’s just weed.
Everybody smoked weed. Hell, I think they need to make it legal (laughter), so
(laughter), so that’s how I feel.
KT: So, it was just weed, yeah.
AW: Mm-hmm, it was just weed (laughter). When I tell people that, they look at
me like, “Adrian, shut up.” I'm like, “I'm serious.” Then when I start explainin’ things,
they be like, “Oh, dang, you did it for real.” Yep, I did it for real.
KT: Yeah, how’s that goin’ to go over with the church? Did you tell folks at
church?
AW: No, well, no. Well, my mom knows, but I am fully redeemed and so I don’t
care.
KT:. So you worked at Wal-Mart, what other kinds of things (laughs), what other
kinds of things--?
AW: I’ve always worked retail. I used be-- I was a desk clerk at a couple hotels. I
worked at--excuse me, I worked at convenience stores, but the job I most liked when I
used to work at, Suite One hotels. It’s not Suite One anymore, at least I don’t think it is. I
was assistant GM there and seeing that I didn’t go to school for it. I think that was pretty
good because I just worked hard. If you like something you’re gonna do good and do it to
the best of your abilities and I really liked doing it, so the manager came in and gave me
that position. So, but when they sold the company, some new people took over and
everybody that was there--.
KT: Had to go--.
AW: Yeah. It, I think I had it for, like, six, seven months, but I liked it.
�Adrian Williams
13
!
KT: So always in either retail or --.
AW: Hospitality. Always--.
KT: What, what gave you or what brought you-- oh, before I ask that is did you
ever or do you ever remember having any kind of sort of political involvements or
political inclinations?
AW: Only thing that I was in at school, I was in student council when I was in
school. I did that for around, my freshmen year. My freshmen year I was in student
council. I did ROTC. I was point guard for Saint John’s basketball team. Other, than that,
no. (someone walks in)
KT: So you played basketball?
AW: Uh-huh. I was the point guard for St John’s--.
KT: Did you play your senior through your senior year?
AW: I played my freshmen, part of my freshmen tenth grade year and that was it.
I wasn’t interested. I got really interested in boys then (laughs). I just didn’t play
basketball no more.
KT: How about any kind of political leanings or what about early perceptions of
whites, you know white people? What kind of interactions did you have with? I don’t
know, how integrated was--.
AW: Saint John’s?
KT: Saint John’s. Yeah (speaking at same time). It was majority black, though,
right?
AW: No.
KT: No? Okay.
�Adrian Williams
14
!
AW: ‘Cause it was majority, where I could see was fifty-forty-five--.
KT: With a small Latino--.
AW: Yeah, yeah. But, so that’s how that was. It wasn’t, and as far as mixing with
whites, I have, my family is a rainbow, so I have no reason, you know, I have uncles that
have married Filipinos. I got, my great-grandfather’s father was white. My greatgrandmother’s mother was Indian, so it’s runnin’ all through me, so-- I got a great-aunt
who’s whiter than you are (laughs). And she’s the last one; she’s still alive.
KT: But, like, your mother probably went through segregated schools--.
AW: My mother did, on the island. And she went there. I don’t think she has a
problem, but I do have one aunt, boy oh boy, she is awful! (laughs) She will talk to them,
but she really don’t like them. And I will ask her, I say all the time, I say, “why are you
like that?” Cause her father is, I say, “Your aunt is, she say, “I don’t care.” (laughs).
KT: Yeah.
AW: That’s exactly what she says! (Laughs). I said, “You can’t do that way.” I
say every time.
KT: No, I don’t mean in terms of just attitudes, I mean, but what sort of
interactions; were there tensions in high school?
AW: Not to me. Not, some of my, some of my closest friends were white, you
know. Sometimes I felt more comfortable with them than I did with, you know, with
black people. That doesn’t bother me.
KT: How did you get to work for the city?
AW: The city, I was driving, cause this was right after my suicide attempt, this
was in 2007, so October 26, 2007. And I had just hit rock bottom. I had lost a job at one
�Adrian Williams
15
!
hotel, ‘cause I was working two jobs at one time. Lost a job at the convenience store and
I was, like, “ damn, how am I gonna pay my bills and take care of my kids” ‘cause I
wasn’t getting any assistance, none. I got off of assistance help when I was twenty-three.
Cause I was like, I can do this myself, I don’t need the government to help me do nothin’,
so that’s how that was. And I was like, I need to pay my bills, I gotta take care my kids,
and I think that’s when everything just came down on me and I just took a bunch of pills.
KT: In Fall of ‘07?
AW: Mm-hmm and I called my mom as I was takin’ the pills and I was, like, you
know, I was crying talking to her and I was, like “I need some help. I need some help.
And she was like, “What are you talkin’ about? Go to sleep.” And I was just like, “You
just don’t understand, I need some help.” And I just started crying and I hung up the
phone. And the next thing you know, she came over and I'm sittin’ on the floor and I
remember writin’ my little notes to my kids and to my family, lettin’ them know I was
sorry and what not. Next thing I know EMS is takin’ me out the house to the hospital,
pumpin’ my stomach. Three days later, I’m in a damn psychiatric ward. For three days
I’m just sittin’ there and I'm just cryin’. I think I cried for a day and a half. I just cried for
a day and a half. And when I got out, I was like I needed a job. But I started my therapy;
they put me on anti-depressants. And I went to apply driving a school bus ‘cause that
was the only where I knew that was hiring that I knew I could get a job ‘cause (speaking
at same time) I had my certificate.
KT: (Speaking at same time) You had a CDL [commercial driver’s license]?
AW: No, I did not. I got it through the school. I got it through the school bus.
‘Cause my sister was working there and I knew she would get me a job there. And so
�Adrian Williams
16
!
that’s what happened. I got the job there. I worked there for six months and I ended up at
the city. So.
KT: Sometimes, you know, people talk about a suicide attempt being “a cry for
help.”
AW: Mm-hmm.
KT: Or some people talk about, “Now this is somebody who’s looking to end it.”
Do you think yours was--?
AW: I think mine (talking at same time) was a cry for help because if I wanted to
end it--.
KT: (Speaking at same time) Really? Did you ever try to kill yourself before? Or
was that?
AW: Never. Never. And I knew it was a cry for help because if it wasn’t, I
wouldn’t’ve called my mom up on the phone and tellin’ her I needed help. I knew that’s
what it was. I wanted someone to find me.
KT: Right. But only as a, I mean thirty-six years old is the first time. I mean
usually you, like, I mean, I don’t know about usually. But you have like, a, somebody
who tries something as a teenager--.
AW: Nope, never.
KT: This is your first?
AW: My first. Because is the first time I felt that it, I was just (speaking at same
time) lost.
KT: (Speaking at same time) So broke.
AW: I was like, damn, I got no job. I gotta take care of my kids. I had bills
�Adrian Williams
17
!
coming the next month. I was like, so. And then, and all the stuff from my childhood was
comin’ on me and all of that just, just was there and I didn’t know how to deal with that.
KT: How did you reconcile with your mom? Are things still, like, (speaking at
same time) difficult?
AW: Well, no. Well, we did, but when I finally went to therapy and I started
talking to Amanda, she was like, “Adrian. If you are uncomfortable with somebody, you
don’t have to talk to them.” I said, “Amanda, let me tell you somethin’. There’s a
difference between white families and black families.” I said, “White people. Y’all don’t
have to talk to y’all parents and that would be fine.” I say, “But, in our society, we cannot
not talk to our parents.” She was like, “Well, I understand what you’re sayin’” She say,
“Well, you don’t have to be anywhere that’s not healthy for you.” And so I took that and
I was like, so let me see. For a whole year, I didn’t speak to my mother at all. But I didn’t
stop my kids from going, because, you know--.
KT: Right.
AW: Those are her grands. But me, I would not accept a phone call. I wouldn’t go
to her house. I just wouldn’t talk to her.
KT: Did she know why?
AW: She knew why because I spoke to my sister. And I finally told my sister
everything that had happened because that was a cleansing process for me. I had to get all
that stuff out. And that’s what, she said, “Adrian, I didn’t know.” I said, “Of course you
didn’t know, you were hardly ever there.” You know, she, and I finally told her--.
KT: So this was after your suicide attempt?
AW: Mm-hmm. This was afterwards. And I spoke to my sister. And she told my
�Adrian Williams
18
!
mom basically what was going on. And she as like, “Well, there’s a lot of things that I
could’ve done and I'm sorry.” I just wanted, you know, I wanted to talk to her, but she
never really apologized to me, yet. She still hasn’t.
KT: Yeah.
AW: She never admitted that she was wrong in this whole situation and, you
know, none of that. And what I had to do, I had to be, like, you know what, I’m gonna
have to let all of this go because I’m stressing myself. I said, “She’s sleepin’ at night.”
I’m the one that has sleepless nights, you know?
KT: Right.
AW: And he’s sleepin’ at night and I’m still not sleepin’, so I had to just let it go.
KT: So she's still with the man that abused you?
AW: Yep. They’re still together. I see him every time I go to her house. And you
know the funny thing is? After a while I was comfortable going there, you know? But it’s
like now, when she's not home, I don’t go in the house, you know?
KT: Right.
AW: I used to just go in there, “Hey was up? How you doing?” And sit down and
talk. But if she's not there, I don’t, I don’t stay around. And I don’t know what it is.
KT: You confronted him at some point, though?
AW: Nope, I never confronted him, either. But I know (speaking at same time) he
almost died.
KT: (speaking at same time) But he, he knows you know and he knows (speaking
at same time) everyone knows?
AW: (speaking at same time) Yeah, he knows. Oh, no, everybody doesn’t know.
�Adrian Williams
19
!
KT: But your sister does?
AW: My sister does, but I don’t think he knows she knows. But it’s just people
that lives in the house who knows. I just recently told my aunt, the one I used to live with
on the island. I call her my Auntie Mama. And, she was like, I’d tell her things before I
tell my mom. If I meet a guy who I'm interested in, I introduce them to her first. I wanna
get her approval first. Cause, my mom, love her, yes, but still.
KT: Yeah.
AW: So, you know, it’s still some underlying things there, you know, but, -KT: Oh yeah.
AW: But, no.
KT: Like, do you know if, I mean, was your mother abused?
AW: Yes, she was. She was.
KT: Like, you know I don’t know anything about it. But it sounds to me like the
choice that she kept making was; I have the possibility of having a man in my life to
provide for these kids--.
AW: She did and I believe that’s what it was--.
KT: So that’s why she was, she felt like she had to look away--.
AW: Yeah. I believe she was like, “I have to do what I have to do to provide for
my kids, ‘cause I can’t do it on my own,” but--.
KT: Not that that ex-, you know. Obviously--.
AW: That’s a sorry ass excuse. (laughter). Excuse me, ‘cause I did it on my own,
you know, but some people just like that. And I understood; I just didn’t know why. I
understood why to a certain point, but I just didn’t know why she had to make a choice
�Adrian Williams
20
!
like that. I think every mother’s job is to protect their child, you know. You know and
when you’re not protecting your child, it’s like, hell, what you started? You, really? And
you can have a license to everything, but you don’t have to have a license to be a parent.
KT: Why do you think at fifteen though, you kinda knew what was right? You
made a choice, though, you chose to protect your--.
AW: Yeah, but you know.
KT: You chose to protect daughter.
AW: I chose to protect my daughter, but the thing is--and you’re not the first
person who’s asked me, you know, that about as far as that goes, because, when I was
younger, I guess not having a father there. You want that attention, so when I was
younger and I was like, okay, I'm getting attention from someone who loves, but, you see
what I'm saying?
KT: Right.
AW: As I got older, I was like, wait a minute. It started clicking that it wasn’t
right, but when you have somebody who has that authority over you--.
KT: Right.
AW: What can you do? And it didn’t dawn on me ‘til I got pregnant with my
daughter. I was like, hold up, this ain’t right. This is not supposed to be happenin’. And
so that what led me to that.
KT: So tell me how, you were driving the bus for the schools.
AW: Driving the bus for the schools, Charleston, yep.
KT: You did that for about six months?
AW: I did that for six months.
�Adrian Williams
21
!
KT: And then, then how did you hear about the city?
AW: I just, well, my boyfriend at the time was a collector.
KT: Okay.
AW: Well, still is a collector.
KT: Okay.
AW: And he told me about it and I put in the application, and--.
KT About what year, what, that was about mid 2008?
AW: No, this was in, let’s see, ten, sixteen, 2006, yeah that happened in 2006
when I did, 2005, 2005. It was 2005 when I attempted suicide; it was 2006 when I put in
my application.
KT: Yeah, yeah, it’s all that dope Adrian.
AW: (Laughing) Yes, it is. I'm serious. I'm serious. It was 2005 when I did my
suicide attempt and 2006 when I put in my application to the city. Yeah, ‘cause I started
ten-sixteen-2006.
KT: Oh, okay.
AW: Yeah.
KT: And, what did they start you as? Did they start you as a collector?
AW: No, I was a driver. I got my CDL through the school bus.
KT: Okay, so they put you, so they had you driving right away?
AW: I was driving--.
KT: What do you remember about, like, what was your first day with the
sanitation?
AW: My first day, I liked it. The first year, I'm tellin’ you. I liked it, I liked
�Adrian Williams
22
!
getting’ up, I liked comin’ to work, I was here on time. I had, I really enjoyed my job.
Tell me what to do, and I'm gonna go get it. And that’s how it was. I was like, “yeah, I
like this job.” Because when I got there, it was like five women there, that’s it. It was
five women on trash and two women in garbage. I was one of the five that was workin’ in
trash. No drama. Everything, all good. The second year I got there and after that came, I
think that man hired like fifteen more women. I was like, “Where these damn women
comin’ from?”
KT: (laughs)
AW: And the more women came, the more drama came. That’s when I started, I
was like, “Oh, God.” That’s when I started like, “You know, I really hate this
job.”(laughter)
KT: So, like, how do you mean drama? Like, what was the drama about?
AW: A bunch of, you know, high school stuff that you think you wouldn’t have.
You say I say this person said this one thing, you messin’ with this one man, this one
man, so I was like, “Man, I don’t wanna hear this mess. This is a bunch of foolishness.” I
said to myself, “Of all things you got to worry about with this job, you worryin’ about
who doin’ what, where?” So, it was just a bunch of crap.
KT: How about the response of the men with all these new women comin’ in?
AW: The men? Boy, you talkin’ about dogs! Oh, my God, dogs. Anything in a
skirt, they sniffin’. I was like, “Wow, y’all are awful!” And being that I was involved
with somebody, I really didn’t let it bother me. I would just look at them and be like, y’all
need some whores around here. (laughs) I was like, it was awful. And then it happened to
me. Me and my ex, we got engaged last Valentine’s Day, so Valentine’s Day gone was a
�Adrian Williams
23
!
year. So we got engaged February 14 and by May, we had broken up.
KT: Because?
AW: He was dealin’ with some girl on the job, so now you know why I say I
wanted to transfer out of that department.
KT: I see.
AW: Little did I know, they were dealing for a whole year (laughs) before I found
out.
KT: Oh, no.
AW: He got her the job there. I was like, “What is he gonna, oh no.” All this was
goin’ on underneath my nose and me knowin’ nothin’. I knew nothin’ until he started not
comin’ home. I said, “You know what this little rat.” So that was the end of that, but all
of last year was so stressful for me. I mean, I had already put in an application to New
York. I put an application in Virginia, North Carolina, I was just ready to leave.
KT: Right.
AW: I was, like, this is it. I didn’t care. I was just gettin’ ready to, like, quit
because I was so much stressed. My weight was going up and down. My hair was-- I start
losin’ my hair. Doctors were puttin’ me on high blood pressure pills because of stressrelated, I was like, “Man, this is a bunch of crap.” And then, on top of that, I had hurt my
back on the job, so I mean.
KT: So, what about, how about harassment from the men, like--?
AW: There's a lot of that.
KT: Beyond just their constant, you know chasing skirts?
AW: Well, we had supervisors, you know, hittin’ on us.
�Adrian Williams
24
!
KT: Supervisors, too?
AW: Yeah, you know, we had supervisors hitting on you every day. And I just
looked at them, I'm like, “You must not want your job.” I would tell them all the time,
you know, “Keep messin’ with me and you’re gonna have no money either a job.” I said,
“Because I'm gonna cost you a lot of money, and then you gonna get fired.” (Laughs)
You know.
KT: Yeah, but--.
AW: They don’t care.
KT: It doesn’t stop?
AW: They don’t care.
KT: Is it beyond, just flirtation?
AW: Yeah it’s beyond, you know they touch you--.
KT: Like do they ever--?
AW: They go all kinds of stuff. They call you when you not at work. I'm like, “You guys
are ridiculous. This is really ridiculous.”
KT: Yeah. These are co-workers and supervisors?
AW: Mostly, well, the co-workers, I can curse them out and keep right on going.
So I don’t pay them no attention--.
KT: It’s a problem when it’s the--.
AW: It’s the supervisors.
KT: Supervisors.
AW: But, you know, I still curse them out to a certain extent because, you know, I
already lost all my respect for them. What the hell they can do to me? You can’t fire me
�Adrian Williams
25
!
because I curse you out, what you doin’? You know, it’s basically his word against mine.
You know, but it’s, it’s awful.
KT: Who were your closest allies? Who were, there some kind of people that
sorta took you under their wing and said, “Hey, this is how you do the job” “watch out
for this one, watch out for that?”
AW: Hell, no! When I first got there--.
KT: No one did that for you--?
AW: No! When I first got there, they put me in the truck, he showed me how to
lock the gate or whatever, then he put me in the truck and sent me on my way. He asked
me, “You know how to get to such and such?” I was, like, “Yeah, I know how to get
there.” “Okay,” tell me go dump the truck at Bees Ferry, I'm at Bees Ferry, I'm on the
radio, “What am I supposed to do with this stuff?” (Laughter) they didn’t tell me where
in the hell to dump it at! I'm on the radio, like, “What am I supposed to do?”
KT: Were your collectors with you, or--?
AW: No!
KT: Did you have try to find--?
AW: I had to find myself, there was a machine, ‘cause I worked in trash. A
machine comes put stuff on the back of the truck and we just take it to Bees Ferry.
KT: Oh, okay.
AW: So, and I'm like, “Where am I supposed to take this stuff? What am I
supposed to do?” They laughing and I'm like, “Y’all laughing, but I'm serious. Where am
I supposed to put this stuff at?” And this other driver was like, “Just stand by, wait right
there and I’ll let you follow me.” I was like, “Thank you, because I woulda just been
�Adrian Williams
26
!
sittin’ here.” You know?
KT: Right.
AW: So this is ridiculous. So, I was like, “Y’all are awful.” And they laughin’ and
I'm like, “I'm glad y’all think that’s funny.” So then another incidence, something
happened with a truck I had. When you go to pop the brake, there’s another thing you
gotta pull, a parking break, to release the air so the truck will stay parked.
KT: Mm-hmm.
AW: Yeah, so the truck can stay parked and it broke, so it wouldn’t release the
brake. They get on the, I get on the radio, callin’ to tell them to send me a mechanic
(laughs). They tell me talkin’ ‘bout how you need some tools. I said, “What I need tools
for?” “You gotta learn how to fix somethin’ and help yourself.” I got on the radio and
said, “Looka here. That’s not my job. I didn’t get hired to fix a truck; I got hired to drive
it. I need a mechanic.”
KT: Right.
AW: And ever since then, no one, no one bothered me because they knew I was
gonna get slick off my mouth, so no one bothered me. But as long as I was on that job, no
one knew what to say to me or how to say it because it was like it my mouth just fires off,
I don’t think, I just say it, but now that they get to know me, they say, “That girl be
crazy.”
KT: (Laughs)
AW: “She straight-up, but she crazy.” So after that, I'm tellin’ you how I feel.
KT: You were saying that you, so you’ve been written up a couple times?
AW: Twice.
�Adrian Williams
27
!
KT: Over?
AW: This one girl, oh, she was awful. She was awful and the thing about it is
when I was in high school, I used to sleep to her house, so she's a lot older than me. Me
and her sister was really cool to sleep to her house and I got there, the first month I was
there, we were cool. I was like, “Hey how you doin’, I didn’t know you worked here.”
You know, catchin’ up and everything. And all of a sudden she just stopped talkin’ to me.
And I couldn’t figure out why, you know, because I knew she would, you know I knew
she was moody, very moody and she would just say little comments, and I’d be like, “No,
you can’t say that.” You know, basically defendin’ people who I knew about, but she
didn’t know. She was just, and I was, “No, that’s not like that, you know.” And I guess
she didn’t like that because I guess she didn’t have anybody in her corner.
KT: Mm-hmm.
AW: And that’s just not the type person I am, so ever since then we’ve been goin’
at it, goin’ at it, goin’ at it. And it just came to a head one day and I threatened her, but
indirectly. I threatened her through a supervisor, and he supervisor told the deputy
director, and that caused me one day suspension and three anger management sessions.
So, can we just stop a second, my mom keeps on callin’ me. I don’t know, my daughter--.
END OF TRACK 1
�Adrian Williams
28
!
START OF TRACK 2
KT: So that was the first one, and so they sentenced you to anger management?
AW: Anger management class. And my anger management counselor, her name
was Corinne. And I basically, you know, everything I told you about the molestation and
everything, she said, "Adrian, you don't have an anger issue." I said, "I know I don't!" I
said, "I really don't!" She said, "Well, well why did they send you here? Sounds to me
like they need to send the other person here." I said, "I don't know." She said, "You
know, you have dealt with a lot, and I don't see what's the problem." She said, "You're
not an angry person to me. All these exercises I'm giving you, you already know about." I
said, "I know." So we basically just talked. That's all we did was talk. You know, I
finished my sessions, and then, you know, I basically stayed out of her way. We had to be
to work at quarter to seven. I would get to work, clock in at six thirty, always make sure
my truck was either parked on the front row or on the back row, so I can just get in it and
go. Didn't stay around the yard at all, because I'm like, I'm trying to avoid confrontation.
So I was always going, never said anything to anybody. And then one day, we had a
meeting, the whole, everybody, trash and garbage, we in the yard, waiting to go in the
trailer. And I'm walking in to go clock in, and the same girl who I got suspended behind,
�Adrian Williams
29
!
she's walking out. She walked past me and called me a slut. And I was, I lost it, then. We
was getting ready to fight in the hallway. And so they investigated--.
KT: At seven AM?
AW: Yeah, they, they investigated it, they put her on administrative leave with
pay for a week while they was investigating it, then they're gonna come and tell me that it
was my fault, well, partially my fault. And I was, like, "Look. I've been doing everything
that I can to avoid this person, but yes, though, y'all are going to blame me," and they're
going to tell me, talk about my anger management classes must not have worked, because
I should have walked away. I'm going to turn my back on somebody who's advancing
me? I don't think so. I've been walking away from somebody, their little snide comments,
I mean, for months. When every time something would happen, I would report it, but
nothing was being done. You know, I'm like, come on, y'all punishing me twice for the,
for a different, I was like, no. I was like, no, no, no. So I got suspended twice. I didn't go
there.
KT: Same thing, one day and three days of anger management?
AW: Same, one day. Nope, I didn't have to go to anger management, then, I just
got suspended that one day.
KT: Who is it that calls you in and actually gives you the, makes these decisions?
How does that work?
AW: The superintendent, which is Sam Price, and the deputy director, which is
Mike Metzler, those two.
�Adrian Williams
!
KT: Okay, and do you get to bring any representative, or anything?
AW: Actually I did fight the last one. I fought the last one, that's called a
grievance hearing. I wrote up people who were, everything that ever happened, you
know, I kept notes on it, gave it to them, (overlaps).
KT: Did anyone assist you with your grievance?
AW: Mm-hm, I did it myself, I did it myself. And I went in there, we had the
whole process. I had my witnesses; they had their witnesses and everything. But in the
end, they still sided against me, so.
KT: Who is it that makes the call, the superintendent?
AW: No, as far as the grievance hearing?
KT: Yeah, does that go outside?
AW: No, it's, 'cause it's consisted of people who are actually employees of the
city. They have, from different departments.
KT: They're like a grievance board or committee?
AW: Yeah.
KT: So you had mentioned getting injured. How were you injured, what
happened?
AW: I was on Society Street, and I was driving the trash truck. And when you
drive a trash truck, you have a machine that comes behind you, it's called the claw. The
30
�Adrian Williams
31
!
claw picks up the debris and puts it in the back of the truck. If it can't get to it, the driver
is responsible to get out and move the thing. So I, it was some trash parked on the corner,
well, not (3:52) but almost on the corner by a light post on the side street. This, I will
never forget. And it was one of those buckets, you know, those big five-gallon buckets
that, you know, have paint and stuff in them? It was like three of them. One of them was
up in a box, and two of them was on the ground. We don't take cardboard, so I went to
reach, to take the one out of the box. Didn't know it was heavy, and something happened
in my back. All I know is that I couldn't stand up. And I'm sitting there crying. I tried to
walk and it hurt so bad. I went to go sit down, and I was basically sitting, looking at the
ground, because I couldn't stand up. EMS had to come get me off the road, put me on a
stretcher. Took me there, the doctor gave me a shot of some kind of pain medicine. I
couldn't drive myself home, so a supervisor took me home. My daughter came back to
the yard and got my car. I think I stayed home for like a week, and came back to work on
light duty. I went to Concentra. That's a quack place. Boy, I'm telling you that's a quack
doctor, 'cause it's a city doctor. I'm telling this man, I'm going to my physical therapy,
and, you know, he's pressing down, pressing on it. Every time I left there I was in tears
because it hurt so bad. I was like, what are, I was like, "Look, I need to go see a
specialist." After going there three times and leaving out there crying, I said, "I need to go
see a specialist." So that's what they did. They sent me to a specialist, we did MRIs, we
did exercises, we did X-rays, the whole nine. Hooked me up to a damn tension machine, I
was on light duty for six months, I believe, maybe four or six months. So this, and
through all of that, diagnosis from the doctor, five percentage damage to my back. Can
never get it back. I have an impairment in my back.
�Adrian Williams
32
!
KT: So is that the procedure, you first have to go to Concentra?
AW: You first have to go to Concentra.
KT: That's their thing?
AW: Mm-hm, that's quack doctor. I do not like them, I'm telling you. We got this
one boy down at the job, broke his foot. The machine roll over his foot, and it was
swollen so bad, you know, that they was going to send him back to work. They're doing
physical therapy, all that stuff now. They took X-rays and didn't see any broken bones,
but when the swelling goes down, took more X-rays, okay, his foot is fractured. But they
had him doing physical therapy, so you can imagine the pain that--I was like, y'all people
are idiots. I was like, ain't no way in hell, nope. Yeah, I was like, your foot is going to be,
'cause it already had started healing.
KT: Like, doing deep massage on that broken foot?
AW: And flexing it all, I was like, y'all, I was like, what are you doing? So those
are idiots. I'm telling people about Concenture, 'cause I don't know they have to go get
their physical therapy license, I really don't. I don't like, I don't like going there, nope.
Mm-mm, I have, let's see, I pulled a tendon on, on this hand, from messing with a broke
up truck that they had to put out of service. Let's see, I hurt my back one time before
then, but this time really messed it up, so I done hurt my back twice. I done sprained my
ankle, I done pulled a tendon in my hand. I got a nail that went through my arm. So,
(laughs) let's see, what else have happened on that job? Oh, I think that's about, oh, a nail
went through my foot.
�Adrian Williams
33
!
KT: But you've only been there two years.
AW: Yep.
KT: Two nails, back, hands?
AW: Two nails, back, hands, yeah. (laughs) I'm telling you, that job is, I'm
serious, that job is, people think it's--oh, and I sprained my ankle. People--and that
happened at Bee's Ferry, because if you've ever been there, and you've seen the machine
that move the trash, and them divots that's in, those things create big holes. And if it's like
a little thin layer and there's a big hole, and you go to step, you don't know what you're
stepping into. You know, them people told me that was my fault? I need to pay attention
where I'm walking at. How the hell can you see a hole underneath something. I mean, I
was like, have, and I asked them, I said, "Have you ever been there?" I said, "Have you
ever been there and actually walked up on that landfill?"
KT: So they were trying to pin the blame on you for an on the job?
AW: Yeah, for my ankle. I was, like, come on. But I didn't fight that one. I didn't
fight, I, I didn't fight. I got compensated for my back, I did, because they know it was an
impairment.
KT: But for the ankle, that was your fault?
AW: Yeah, that was my fault. They said that was my fault. I should've watched
what I was--.
KT: It's just, it's on the job. That should be indisputable, right?
�Adrian Williams
34
!
AW: Boy, I'll tell you, these people are a mess. I'm trying to tell you these people
are a mess (laughs). The City of Charleston, they're a mess.
KT: When did you get involved, or when did you first hear about this union effort
and people coming together?
AW: Jess and Seabrook came to me with that. And I believe they came to me
because they know I was kind of outspoken. And so they approached me with it, and I
think me, Jess, Seabrook, and there was this other guy, his name was Michael Myers,
were the first initial four that had got this off the ground and running, as far as passing
out cards and stuff like that. We did that.
KT: And that was about when?
AW: You know, I don't know, you know? 'Cause it seems so long ago. I don't
know.
KT: Like, about a year, right?
AW: Had to have been about a year or better. Had to been about a year or better.
KT: Do you remember when you first met Mrs. Moultrie?
AW: No, I don't remember that either.
KT: Or first started coming over here?
AW: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. I just knew it was just, I just came. I just knew, I just
came. And when we first started, it was so many people, every seat in here was full.
�Adrian Williams
35
!
KT: Really?
AW: Every seat in here was full. But I guess, as time went on, you see, you can
tell who's dedicated and who was not dedicated, because the dedicated ones, they may
stop coming for this week or next week, but you know, they'd be right back, they'll be
right there, you know?
KT: So why do you think people dropped off? What is it that's, what's the
difference between those who, you know, stayed committed, and those who got other
things going on?
AW: People don't have patience. Everybody is in a ready-made society. They
want it now. They don't want to wait, and they don't want to wait for it. So I guess that's
what was going on. There, some people were obligated, second jobs, you know, so that's
understood, so.
KT: Yeah. So what's the key to getting them back?
AW: Ooh, boy, I would try to talk to them. I'm like, I asked them. 'cause
especially ones I know that's, "Hey, you at, you still working that second job?" "No." I
was like, "Oh, that's good, well, we're still doing such and such down there at the," "Oh,
yeah, y'all still doing," I'm like, "Yeah, you need to come by there, see what's going on
with that." And then I'll inform (10:39) I was like, "Oh, yeah," I'm like "Yeah." Like, "I'll
be there." They may not come then, but then another week, then they would come. So I
do what I can to get those down there, you know? Some of the older cats that still work
down there, when you talk to them about it, they're just closed-minded, period. "I don't
�Adrian Williams
36
!
want to hear that." They ain't nothing for change.
KT: They're afraid?
AW: No, they're not afraid, they've just seen it all, and the last time they had this
process going on they were just so close, they were right there at the door.
KT: You mean like in '93?
AW: Yeah, and I don't know what--.
KT: Or 2003.
AW: And I don't know what happened to deter that, but they were right there.
And those guys was like, they're not sticking their neck out no more. Because when they
did at at that time, so much heat came down on them that they was like, we're not sticking
out, we're not doing. Because they were almost there. I don't even know what happened. I
have no clue.
KT: But they feel burned by that.
AW: Yeah, they just, they was, and they was like, "Well, if y'all get it, good." But
that's, that's it. But the newer kids that's coming in there--.
KT: It does seem a lot, like a lot of younger people are, like you and Jess.
AW: It's more younger. It's more younger ones, because we know, like--.
KT: Seabrook.
AW: Yeah, who the hell putting up with this crap now? I don't want to deal with
�Adrian Williams
37
!
this crap. Every day the same stuff? Like, no, It just seems like the younger ones are the
ones going and taking over this.
KT: Yeah, other than people like Polite, and Reverend Bennett.
AW: Yeah, who actually know. So we tried to get the (12:05) in there, but they
just aren't interested, not interested at all.
KT: So you began coming to meeting because you were invited by, you knew
Justin Seabrook, and trusted them enough that they knew what was going on?
AW: Yeah, I've known Seabrook, hell, since middle school.
KT: Oh, really?
AW: Mm-hm. Him and my sister went to high school together, so I've known him
since forever.
KT: How long's he been with the--?
AW: City of Charleston?
KT: The city, yeah, do you know?
AW: I don't know how long Seabrook's been with the city.
KT: Somebody was telling me, I think, that he was the one that contacted--.
AW: Miss Moultrie, initially.
KT: I think he contacted her through Shirley.
�Adrian Williams
38
!
AW: Who's Shirley?
KT: Is Shirley a Campbell? Miss Moultrie's friend, Shirley?
AW: Oh, I don't know.
KT: Not Shirley the driver, but Shirley who works here sometimes. And then I
think Shirley, I think Seabrook might've known Shirley, and then maybe Shirley told
Miss Moultrie, I think that's how.
AW: Okay, she might have, I don't know how that all started. But I know he came
to me with it, yeah, 'cause I was in the office then. People come in and be like, "We're
trying to get this union started, sign this card for me." I'm sitting at the desk in front of all
the supervisors, everything. "Sign this card for me." And while I was just sitting there.
KT: You signed it in front of, or he asked you right in front of the supervisors?
AW: No, he pulled me aside, I was asking people to sign the cards right there. I
didn't care. I didn't care. I did not care, I really didn't. What are y'all going to do to me? I
did not care at all.
KT: So you never had any hesitation about joining or being part of--?
AW: No. Mm-hm. No, not in the least. You know, people say you might lose your
jobs. I was like, well, what difference does it make if you lose your job when you got
people walking all over your back? I was like, if you don't stand up for something, you're
going to fall for anything. So that's how I feel about it.
KT: When did you switch to becoming a sweeper?
�Adrian Williams
39
!
AW: A sweeper, January 6, 2009. And the only reason why they switched,
because I had applied for this job a whole year ahead of time, you know? When
everything first started happening with me and my ex and all the girls, I applied then.
KT: To be a sweeper, to get off?
AW: To be a sweeper, to get off of trash, so I can, you know, 'cause they come in
quarter to five, leave at quarter to one. That was me coming in before them, leaving
before they even got back to the yard. And, but they switched, I'd been asking, I'd been
asking, I'd been asking. It's like every week, I'd been asking, I'd been asking, I'd been
asking. But they switched me when I had my grievance hearing, because they switched
me January 6, I think my grievance hearing was at the end of the month. So they
switched me just in time for that grievance hearing. 'Cause they brought that up. I was
like, they was like, "Well, aren't you a senior driver now?" I said, "Yes." "Well, aren't
you over?" I said, "Hold up," I said, "I just got this position." And I let it, it was on the
record, I said, "I applied for this a year ago. I just got this position being that I was
getting ready to come this hearing." I said, "So me being over her has nothing to do with
anything. I just started." So, but I believe that was the only reason why they, they did
that.
KT: Why they moved you?
AW: Why they moved me, because I don't think they was going to, I really don't
think they was.
KT: But they didn't want to deal with the grievance?
�Adrian Williams
40
!
AW: They didn't, they didn't want it to look as though that they were keeping me
in that situation. And even though I had already asked to be removed from that, and they
wasn't doing anything about it. They wanted to make it seem as though, oh, we did move
her. Okay, a month, what, two weeks before my grievance hearing, y'all move me?
KT: I see.
AW: You see what I'm saying?
KT: Yeah, yeah.
AW: So, that's how that worked out. I'm like, y'all are idiots.
KT: So how many sweepers are there?
AW: How many sweepers, or how many drivers, sweeper drivers?
KT: Sweeper drivers?
AW: Five.
KT: That's it?
AW: Two women and three men.
KT: But you're all still, do you still report to the yard out there?
AW: I still report to the yard out there. And right now, for the longest--.
KT: But you don't drive your trucks from the yard, do you?
AW: Mm-hm.
�Adrian Williams
41
!
KT: Oh, I guess you drive them, and then you put down the brooms.
AW: Yeah. But we, I haven't, ask me how many times I've been in a sweeper
since I started in January. I trained for two and a half months, so January, February, half
of March. I've been right back in trash.
KT: What do you mean?
AW: 'Cause I don't have a truck.
KT: They don't have a truck for you, so they just have you back driving trash?
AW: Yeah, back driving trash.
KT: Even though technically, you're--.
AW: I'm a sweeper driver.
KT: You're a sweeper driver?
AW: Exactly. Only time--.
KT: But they've just got you on some sort of, like, temporary fill in kind of thing?
AW: (laughs) The only time I drive a sweeper truck is on Fridays or when it's my
weekend, because everybody gets a weekend. We have to rotate, but yep.
KT: Do you like, but when they move you back to trash, you're working trash
hours, you're not working straight days are you?
AW: I'm working; I'm working my sweeper hours.
�Adrian Williams
42
!
KT: You work your sweeper hours, but in trash?
AW: But in trash. I go to where, I, no, I have to alternate some, because they don't
have to be to work 'til quarter to seven. If I come to the job at quarter to five, I'll just be
sitting there. So I come in at six-thirty and I leave at two-thirty. And that's only, what,
eight hours a day, so on Friday, I have to come to work. But I can get around that, I can
stay, like how they stay, Monday through Thursday, and just be like, the hell with it, and,
you know, don't work on Friday. But I don't want to be there that long, so I do six-thirty
two-thirty. Mm-hm.
KT: Once you begin to sweep regularly, do you think you'll prefer that?
AW: I prefer it now.
KT: Do you? How come?
AW: I'm, I like it now, because I'm by myself. Tell me what I'm do-- what I have
to do, and I'm gone. That's just it. I don't have nobody bothering me, I don't have to get
out and rig nothing, I don't have to pick up nothing. I'm not worried about injuring
myself. So that works just fine.
KT: It's a lot safer.
AW: Yeah, for me, yeah. Shoot, come on, now, how many things have happened
to me in less than two years? No, mm-hm.
KT: Yeah, it's not a very good track record.
AW: No, (laughs) (overlaps) and I'm accident prone. So the longer they keep me
�Adrian Williams
43
!
in trash, the more accidents is bound to happen. Shoot. So, nope. And it's, my back isn't
going to get better, so when I'm in trash, all I do is irritate it, because I have to get out, I
have to rake, I have to pick up. So.
KT: So it's not bad when you're in the cab?
AW: It's not bad when I'm just in the truck, just driving, it really isn't. I can
manage the pain, because that's all I'm doing, is pain management. Being that I have
scoliosis, and I have a permanent impairment from this job, hell, I'm just all messed up.
So it's better for me to stay in the truck. And some days, when I don't want to drive, I'll
tell them, "Look, I'm not getting out this truck." I say, "However you get it, you get it.
My back is hurting me today." They just look at me, "All right." And I just drive, I don't
get out.
KT: That's what you tell your collectors?
AW: That's what I tell, yeah, that's what I tell the claw operator, yep, I'm not
getting out. So, and I don't get out.
KT: 'Cause the expectation, normally you're, if you're running behind or
something, you're supposed to get out and help your collectors right, or?
AW: That's in garbage. I work in trash. The machine picks up everything. So if
the machine can't get it, then I have to get out.
KT: I see. But if you're not getting out, then you've just got to pass it up.
AW: Yeah, I just be like, y'all, you get it. That man who's driving the machine, he
�Adrian Williams
44
!
get out and put it in there, 'cause I'm not getting out, no.
KT: As you see the campaign develop, you said you've definitely seen that people
were really enthusiastic at first, a lot of them signed cards, and then some of that's
dropped off. What are some other things that have happened along the way that you've
seen? Like, how's management responded once they got word of what was going on?
AW: What was going on? They actually, they formed that committee at the job.
They got two trash, two garbage, two, well, one block man, and that was, it was, I think it
was like eight total. Wait a minute. No, it's, how much people is it? (20:35) It's supposed
to be ten people.
KT: These are people they picked?
AW: Picked, well, the, the trash people, we nominated people and people voted
on it. Garbage did the same thing. And so I don't know how the block men did it, but they
have one person there. But being that I'm not in trash anymore, I'm considered working
with the block men, so it's two of us now. So it's two block men people, two trash, and
three garbage, three garbage. No, it's, yeah, now, three trash, three garbage, two block
men.
KT: What's a block man?
AW: Block man is someone who walks around with a broom and dustpan and
sweeps K Street, the market area. Those are block men. But their supervisor is my
supervisor, because I'm sweeper driver.
�Adrian Williams
45
!
KT: I see. Sweepers fall under that.
AW: Yeah, sweepers fall under that. So that's how that is. They started doing that,
management did that. You know, we wrote down little things we want, gloves, rain suits,
stuff like that, we got all of that. You know, it's like they're noticing, but I think they're
basically just doing what they can just to shut us up, so we can stop being a pain in the
ass.
KT: So that only came about because what you and Seabrook and others were
doing.
AW: 'Cause all the articles that started coming out in the Chronicle. And the
mayor got the very first article, I believe he got the very first article, and they decided
they want to form a committee so they can get our input on things that was going on. So
that's, that's what happened with that.
KT: Okay. Have those committees, I mean, do you think they've been effective?
AW: To a certain extent. You know, because we never would have gotten the rain
suits, we never would have gotten the rain boots. We never would have gotten all those
truck service with the ACs, you know, even though some of them still don't work, but
they're actually fixing them. 'Cause at one point, you can go the whole summer, all right,
they wouldn't fix it, you see what I'm saying? So they actually--.
KT: You mean, truck without AC?
AW: Yeah, in the summer. So they're actually fixing it. So, a lot of things are
�Adrian Williams
46
!
getting done. But it's still, there's, I don't, I think it's just temporary fixes, you know?
Because it's like they're doing things to pacify us right now, and once they felt as though
they have pacified us enough, then that's going to be it. So.
KT: What are some things that, in thinking about the union, the campaign, what
are some things that the workers could be doing to make this a more active campaign,
and what are some things, specifically, that you might be able to do, that you haven't
done to this point? What are other ways that this could all be put together?
AW: I just think that if we, as a group, can stop not trusting each other, then
things will pull together a little bit more freely. Because we have a lot of people who
were initially involved, would act one way here and then when they got back to their job,
act a different way. You know, and that was one reason why a lot of people stopped
coming, or why we can't get more people to come. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't
think there is anything else that I can possibly do that I haven't done, you know? Because
I was initially put off by what was going on, because I was coming here faithfully every
Friday, you know? And when they had the voting thing, there were some personal things
going that I wasn't here that day. And they voted Miss Campbell acting president, and me
assistant secretary, and I was like, whoa, hold up. 'Cause I was really angry about that,
because when we first started this, just like I said, was me, Jess, Seabrook and Michael
Myers. When they spoke to Campbell, "I don't want nothing to do with it." And for her to
just come in and for that to happen, I was like, you know, I really resented that. And then
I had to sit back, I was like, "Adrian, this is bigger than you, so you have to put that aside
and do what you have to do to get this done." So I started coming back, and I just let it
�Adrian Williams
47
!
go. To me it's like, it's not important what her role is or whatever, we're working for the
same cause. So it didn't bother me anymore. So, but as far as I'm concerned, I mean, I
don't see what else that I can possibly do, because people are going to talk to you if they
want to talk to you, and if, especially if they don't like you, they don't want to hear
anything you have to say. You know, you can go up to them and be like, bridges, water's
under the bridge, you know? Try to move on from that. But if they have that strong of
opinion against you, it's like in one ear and out the other.
KT: Were you here the other day when there was some tension at the meeting?
AW: Yeah, I was here. I was here.
KT: Yeah, that's right, you were here.
AW: I was sitting right there.
KT: And you kind of new it was going to go down, right, 'cause I think you said
something.
AW: I said, I went around the room and asked everybody, do y'all have something
to say? You know, because I saw that Campbell, she was irritated too. And I was trying
to get her to say what it is that she needed to say, but she didn't say it. But I didn't know it
was Vincent and Mr. Bennett. I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting Campbell. But
when Vincent, yeah, I was like, whoa, where'd that come from, you know? And I was
like, okay. And so, but I was glad that part of it came out, you know? But I just--.
KT: I don't think it was bad that that happened.
�Adrian Williams
48
!
AW: No, I really don't, but the thing about it is, Vincent is really letting his anger
interfere with his judgment, and because what's going on now, he's basically just pulled
back, you know? And I was like, this ain't the time that you need to be pulling back. You
actually need to, okay, you said, you spoke your piece. If you say you're a man like how
you say you are, you spoke your piece and go with that, let it go, you know? But he's not
looking at it like that.
KT: Yeah, and it's not about your thing with Bennett.
AW: No, it's not, it's a bigger picture, but, and I tried to talk to him.
KT: 'Cause he's got a responsibility to you, to Shirley, to Miss Campbell.
AW: Yeah, he doesn't even, and he's on the committee at the job. He doesn't even
come to the committee meetings. He's like, "I ain't got time for that." And I was like,
wow. So from now, and you know, I hate to be this way, but the only way I'm going to
have to be if he's like, "Adrian, what happened?" "You should've been there." I'm like,
"You need to come." And that's how I'm going to have to handle him. Don't ask me
what's going on, and you don't want to be a part of it. You should've been there, and that's
how I'm going to have to handle him. You know, because I'm like, you said this thing,
said that thing, said the next thing, and you're going against everything you said.
KT: There's got to be some follow through.
AW: It has to be.
KT: Unless you're there.
�Adrian Williams
49
!
AW: He's not doing it. So right now it's like all accountability, my respect for him
is basically shot. So you can't say one thing and do something else, because I'm the type
of person, if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to, I'm going to do it. And If I
said, well, I don't know, that means I'm not sure, so don't hold me to that, you know? But
if I said I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. That's just it.
KT: One of the things that I was, I just observed and was saying to Miss Moultrie
the other day, and we talked a little bit about this this past week, I said, you know what? I
think maybe, like this thing, going out in the streets has been a really positive experience.
Like, at least when I go out and I see all of you guys together, it seems like there's
actually a lot of, at least to me, it looks like you really care for one another a lot.
AW: Yeah, we talk, we do, and I can see--.
KT: And there's, you know, people are, you know, making fun, they're laughing,
they're teasing one another. But it just, I don't know, I think you have a good spirit among
you.
AW: Yeah, believe it or not, before I even started here, I didn't talk to Mr. Polite,
because I thought that was the meanest old man on the planet. I'm serious.
KT: He's funny, isn't he?
AW: I just thought, I was like, you are so mean! I would walk by him, "Good
morning." He would grunt. It was like, wow, so I didn't speak to him. But now that I've
gotten to know him a little bit better, I'm like okay. And then Mr. Bennett, I didn't talk to
him either. You know, I was like, hey, he was looking at me, hello, and all. But now I
�Adrian Williams
50
!
crack jokes with them. It's like, when you come in there, it's like, this is supposed to be
our own little family. You know, we fight amongst ourselves, but we are supposed to be
able to work it out, because we know what we're trying to do is so important. And that's
what I don't understand. How can you break away from your family? You was here when
it started. We need to finish and follow through, and make sure it gets to where it's going.
Even if we fail, at least we all fail together, you know? And that's the way I look at it.
'Cause when I first, just like I said, I wanted to back out, but I was like, you started
something, you got to finish it. And that's what I'm teaching my kids. How can I teach my
kids, if you start something you've got to finish it, if I'm not doing the same thing. So
that's why I came back. I started this, you got to finish it. But I don't know, it's like the
family's just breaking up. They're coming in sporadically, and then I don't even know
how the turnout's going to be for tomorrow, to be honest with you. Because every time I
see somebody, like, "Hey, we're doing petitions tomorrow." I say, "I knew you saw it on
TV, this is the last Saturday." I said, "Come on in and help us out, some, you know?"
(30:02) "Oh, y'all still doing that?" Because they haven't heard anything. I was like,
"Yeah, we're still doing that." (30:07) I was like, "Come on, man." It was like, "Well, all
right, I'll let you know."
KT: But you won't see them.
AW: I probably won't. Probably won't.
KT: Yeah, well, you know, one of the things I was also saying to Miss Moultrie
was, you know, one of the things we need to start doing is confronting some of these
council members and meeting with them one on one. But, I think, you know, you and
�Adrian Williams
51
!
others would be good people to sit down with them, because it's one thing for me or one
thing for Mr. Riley or Miss Moultrie to be able to make the case, but if they're not living
it, you know, if there's something, there's a difference when you or, you know, Miss
Campbell or Mr. Polite make the case, when Rhonda Jones talks about what she's
experienced on the job.
AW: I just feel sorry for her all the time, I really do. I hate how they treat her, and
every time somebody says something negative, I just look at them like, y'all don't know
her.
KT: What do they say about her?
AW: Rhonda leads an alternative lifestyle.
KT: Actually, she spoke about that.
AW: You know, and I'm like--.
KT: And she's out with it.
AW: Yeah, and I'm like, I just don't like how they treat her, you know? I'm like,
come on. I'm like, to each his own. Y'all can't knock her for what she's doing. She's not
bothering nobody, and you talk about (overlap) you know what? And I just look at them,
I'm like, y'all some awful people. Because even my ex, he would say, I'm like, don't talk
about her like. And he'd say, "She brought that stuff on herself." I said, "You don't know,
even know what's going on." I was like, come on. So I defend her in most cases. If I walk
in the conversation I'd be like, "Y'all don't know what's going on with her," you know,
�Adrian Williams
52
!
but I just, I don't like it at all. I really don't, mm-hm. But we need to, I just think, I don't, I
just think, you know how things are not, stopped getting, not fun? You know, when you
first get into something, you're all excited about it, you're ready to go? I just think it's
getting to the point where no one's excited about it anymore, you know? It's like, we have
to do something that's going to make it fun.
KT: What is that?
AW: I don't know. We have to do something. We keep saying we want to have a
little party or something, and I think we really do need to have that, but Miss Moultrie is
so set against it. She really is so set against it, and I really don't know why. But I think
that's something that we really need to do. Have a little get-together, have a party, you
know? Where there's alcohol and food, people are likely to loosen up.
KT: What if, see, that's something that maybe Leonard and the longshoremen
could help with. You know, they have that beautiful space over there.
AW: Yeah, they do got a nice big building.
KT: And, you know, they know how to put on a party.
AW: Yeah, so I heard. (both laugh)
KT: That sounds like a good idea to me.
AW: Yeah, but we need to do something, because they've got to have something
to be fun.
KT: Something, yeah, because otherwise, yeah, people are losing.
�Adrian Williams
53
!
AW: It's going to get monotonous, they're going to be like, yeah, you're doing this
again, I'm like, so, we've got to do something to bring the fun back in it, you know?
'Cause when we first started, everybody was ready to go. That's just it, ready to go. Now
it's like, we there yet? (laughs)
KT: When you go to make the case to your coworkers, say, how do you pitch it to
them? Some of them probably say, well, what's a union, why would I want to pay dues to
that, what are they going to do for me?
AW: Well, I talk to them, I grew up in the street. I'd be like, you know, I said, so,
"Y'all know we're trying to get this union started." They'd be like, "Why?" I said, "So,
you like working in the heat like this, all day long?" I said, "You like your truck being
broken, and they give you the right one?" I said, "Have you got hurt on the job yet?"
They'd be like, "No," I said, "Well, I have," and I tell them what's going on and whatever
the case may be. And they'd be like, "Well, I'd see. But don't supervisors, that's not," I
said, "Supervisors don't have nothing to do with your off time." I said, "You can't get
fired for talking to people, you know?" But if me telling them my story ain't going to get
them here, hell, what will get them here? (laughs) So, I mean, there's some people I can
go out with and laugh and trip with, like guys, I can go up and laugh and trip with, you
know, because just like I said, all of them are dogs. So you go up to them, smile a little
bit, talk to them some. Like, "Well, yeah, I'll be there." Sometimes they actually do come,
you know? (laughs) Because, you know, that's just like, yeah, I can get, no, you can't, but
come anyways. (laughs) So that's how that is. So the guys are easier than the girls, you
know, but some of them be like--.
�Adrian Williams
54
!
KT: Who are, like, are there some key people who if they showed up and got
enthusiastic, then others would follow, and who are those people?
AW: Yeah. let's see. We got Eugene Palmer, we got Eugene Raglan.
KT: These old-timers?
AW: Yeah. Charles Brown.
KT: And if they showed up, then it would make a difference?
AW: It would make a difference if they showed up. Let's see, Palmer, Raglan.
KT: Well, what if we tried to get their butts out to the party?
AW: Well, well, I know Raglan might come to a party. Palmer's not going to
come to a party, that's not his thing.
KT: He's too straight?
AW: He's a religious person, a real religious person. Brown would come to a
party. Brown will come to a party. Who else? Who else? I think, oh, there were three. But
there's some more, but I don't think they have that much of an influence like that. But
them three there? Mm-hm, those three.
KT: Yeah, people that are respected, you know?
AW: Them three right there.
KT: And who carry some weight.
�Adrian Williams
55
!
AW: Them three right there.
KT: They'd be key.
AW: Mm-hm.
KT: I just have a couple more questions for you. Were you involved at all in the
Presidential campaign? Did you get involved in the Obama campaign?
AW: No, I didn't.
KT: Did you have any feelings about that, one way or another?
AW: I was, I was kind of torn.
KT: How were you torn? What could you be torn about?
AW: Because I'm not Republican nor Democrat. I vote for the person that's going
to work best for me. And in the beginning, I was not going to vote for Barack Obama at
all, because his religious views and my religious views don't coincide. I am not, no means
a, how you call it, I don't, I'm not a discriminatory person. Each person has the right to
live their own lives. But certain things, I follow from the Bible, you see what I'm saying?
And he was not following from the Bible.
KT: On what kind of things?
AW: Abortion, gay rights, I mean, gay marriages, those were my two key things
right there, that I didn't agree with him on, I really didn't. His bigger seller to me was the
economics. That was his biggest seller to me. That's what won me over from John
�Adrian Williams
56
!
McCain. But believe it or not, I was rooting for John McCain too, (laughs) 'til like two
months 'til the end of the candidacy (laughs). I'm serious. I'm serious. I am dead serious, I
really am. People look at me, and my friends be like, "Adrian, tell us, you was a sellout?"
(37:48) "You a black Republican." I'm looking at them, I was like, "No, I'm not." I said,
"I'm really not. I'm just going, well, what's best for me?" And I'm looking around, and
sometimes I wonder if I still made the right decision voting for Barack Obama, because
I'm seeing all these things, I see one state gay marriage, this state gay marriage, this thing
again with abortion. I'm looking like, I was like, oh, I think I made the wrong decision.
I'm serious. I'm serious. I battle with that every day.
KT: But he didn't do that at the state level. That's where public sentiment is going.
AW: Well, I don't, ugh, I just, but he had the power to stop it.
KT: I don't want to, I'm not trying to challenge you on your religious views at all,
but putting it in this terms, on one hand, you defend Rhonda and her choices, but on the
other hand--.
AW: Because as a human being she has the right to make her own decisions,
that's what I'm saying. But from a Bible standpoint, that's how it's supposed to be.
KT: But if Rhonda were to say, you know, "This is my partner, you know, we
want to be married."
AW: I don't have nothing against them, you know?
KT: We've been together, you know, fifteen years, and we want to--.
�Adrian Williams
57
!
AW: I don't have nothing against them, I really don't. All I'm saying to myself, I-KT: But would you let her do that legally?
AW: No, I wouldn't let her do it legally.
KT: How come?
AW: I would vote against it, I really would.
KT: How come?
AW: Because it's just not right?
KT: I mean, you can still keep your personal religious views about it.
AW: But then I'll be contradicting my personal religious views too, if I vote for it.
KT: But you already are by accepting her as a--.
AW: Because she's a person, and I, and she hasn't done anything to me, for me to
not, you know, I mean, that's just how she chose to live her life. I can't stop anybody from
living they life. But if I have, you know, and this is so tricky. I don't want to stop
anybody from having, being happy. I really don't, you know? But when it comes down to
what the Bible says and what God says, that's something altogether different. I have no
right to judge anybody, but I'm not going to make it easy for them to do what it is that
they want to do. That's just that. I'm not going to do it. But the only thing, I'll be saying in
the back of my head is, I wonder if y'all know y'all going to hell. That is in the back of
my head. I'm like, y'all are free to do what y'all want to do, but in the back of my head,
�Adrian Williams
58
!
I'm like, I wonder if y'all know y'all going to hell. You know, no sin is greater than the
next sin, because trust me, I have committed my share of sins. But I'm like, okay, come
on, now, you have to draw the line. I'm like, so I mean, I'm not going to stop anybody
from being truly happy, I'm just not going to make it easy for them to, no.
KT: Okay, fair enough. I'm not going to change your mind on this, and I don't
want to.
AW: Okay. (laughs)
KT: What else was I going to ask you? Well, let me ask you, tell me, is there
something that we talked about, or that you want to go back to and elaborate on, or
maybe something that I didn't ask you that's really important about your life and who you
are, that you need to tell people about?
AW: No, I, all I can say is that I got married to my daughter's father, we've known
each other since we were five and six. I got married in 2002, got divorced in 2005. My
husband is a crack cocaine addict. And I stuck with it for three years. Oh, those were the
three longest years of my life. And, but I couldn't do it anymore. So, I'm single mama for
the longest, independent, very independent. Very stubborn. And the cards that I was
dealt, people who know me since I was a little girl, they look at me and say, "Adrian, you
did a good job with your kids." And so to me, that's what makes me who I am. I didn't
have much, but what I had, I make sure that my kids have, you know, my kids are very
respectable. My daughter, she may have had her kids early, but she's married, my
daughter got married at eighteen. She has a little boy, little girl on the way. Due any day
�Adrian Williams
59
!
now. I've got a son who's twelve, and no matter where he goes, "I just love your son. He
is so smart, he is so mannerable." And that just makes me feel good, to know that I did
that. No one helped me do that but me, I did that all on my own. And people look at me,
"She's mean." (42:24) "She just open her mouth any kind of way and say any kind of
thing." Like, but once they get to know me, "You know, she's real cool. She's just
straightforward, but she's real cool." So if anything was to ever come from this, I just
want people to know that I am hard on the outside and really soft on the inside. I don't
take no shit from nobody. That's just that. (laughs) You have to take me as I am, because
I'm going to tell you how it is, whether you like it or not. I don't sugarcoat it at all.
KT: Where do you want to be in ten years?
AW: In ten years, I hope to have already gotten my degree and helping somebody
just like me in ten years. That's where I hope to be at.
KT: Well, the kids will be moved on, so you'll be in a position to start doing for
you.
AW: Yeah, so that's where I hope to be. And even if I haven't got my degree, be
somebody's center. If I can just volunteer and do it that way, because I know I can help
somebody. 'Cause I know, I know in my heart, that I didn't go through all of this for
nothing. There is no way. Mm-hm. Nope.
KT: Well, thank you very much.
AW: Thank you.
�Adrian Williams
60
!
(off-topic)
KT: Mostly right now you write poetry -- do you ever write any other kind of, like
fiction, autobiography, journal?
AW: I keep a journal, I keep a journal, I keep diaries. But usually the most time
that I write is either at the very beginning of a relationship, when it's really good, or the
very end when it's really crappy. (both laugh) So that's what those journals are mostly
about. That's, yeah.
KT: Do you hold on to your journals?
AW: Mm-hm, I got them all.
KT: Do you? Going back for how long?
AW: Fourteen, fourteen--.
KT: Do you ever go back and read those?
AW: No, I don't want to read those ones.
KT: Then why do you hold on to them?
AW: I don't have to read them, I don't have to read them. I can tell them.
KT: Why do you keep them?
�Adrian Williams
61
!
AW: I don't know. My kids might want to, they don't know the story.
KT: You'd let them read it someday?
AW: Mm-hm, they don't know the story, so they can know why I am the way I
am.
KT: Does your oldest daughter, does she have any idea of some of the stuff you
went through?
AW: She knows some of the stuff, but I haven't gone into detail with her. My son
doesn't know at all.
KT: Yeah, but your oldest daughter knows you were abused?
AW: Yeah, she knows, she knows. Yep.
KT: Well, you're a survivor.
AW: I think I am, thank you very much.
KT: All right, thanks again.
AW: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW
Matt Allbritton
March 19, 2010
KG, April 20, 2010
ML January 6, 2016
�Adrian Williams
!
62
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kieran Walsh Taylor
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Adrian Williams
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Original format WAV; access format MP3; transcript format PDF
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 23 minutes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Adrian Williams, interviewed by Kieran Walsh Taylor, 5 September, 2009
Subject
The topic of the resource
African American women--Employment
African American labor union members--South Carolina--Charleston
Sanitation workers
Description
An account of the resource
Adrian Williams (1970) was born and raised in Charleston, SC. She was among the first female sanitation workers with the City of Charleston. In this interview, Williams recalls her early days growing up in Charleston and Johns Island and asserts that being a sexual abuse survivor made her a strong person who fights for her rights and who understands the sufferings of others. When asked about her source of strength, she affirms that becoming a mother when she was a teenager made her resolute about building a better life for herself and her child. She is particularly grateful for three women that provided support and inspired her: her aunt, her psychotherapist, and an English teacher. After a life crisis, Williams started working as a bus driver with the City of Charleston and later she moved to the sanitation department. She liked it at first. However, soon she discovered the problems that plagued her job which included abusive managers, sexism and sexual harassment, as well as, safety hazards related to the lack of appropriate training and equipment. Williams talks about her experiences as a union organizer, the barriers to engage more workers in the process, and the development of more effective strategies to negotiate with the authorities. This interview brings light to the efforts of the Local 1199C to be recognized by the City of Charleston in 2009.
This interview is a part of the COHP's "Working Charleston" series. Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:93882" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Working Charleston
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/132
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/43040c0e656e25037a7b01f92d0b8934.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=BC0K3uvS-VUrpqG5WS5kdxB1LG%7EQuKm8dq5zL3oWjQv1ybMY974r72pSlFW2HVccHMPivdCWJU6qYIr%7EUHeZEhuZEV1fFGJUO1y5Ly92IVCKs2yUDZP638Yv9NSuBPw3gnQ0QPaOzsMm-dJGIAFn%7Enx5UukZaftfp3LNHl5dDLr0El3DQoItdRoKj074eIpmgSKFiEO4YOHdUDBQeg5R0X4Q2W-BOZZHqQX-agmgWMlOuK6OgXHJNhdduK774iGwN-iOe5Y0Tr0ROtdH2ocijl5etjVJQy08OKhmC1eyFrMS88l-QCC2B2zY-QPT3di9kYS9FQ7X72BcscrTOVswag__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
132acb6bf2713bc1d57fc5ff3e6fed4a
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT--ANTHONY WRIGHT
Interviewee: ANTHONY WRIGHT
Interviewer: LASHIKA PALMER
Interview Date: March 4, 2013
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 105 minutes
LASHIKA PALMER: This is Lashika Palmer on March 4, 2013, with Mr.
Anthony Wright. How are you today, sir?
ANTHONY WRIGHT: Everything is all right, and what ain’t right, you got to
make right, isn’t that right?
LP: That’s true, so could you state your full name, date of birth for me?
AW: My name is Anthony C. Wright. My date of birth, December 12, 1952. I’m a
’52 baby, you know that?
LP: I did not know that.
AW: Yeah, see, ’52 baby, 1952.
LP: 1952.
AW: That make me sixty years old, and I love being sixty. Oh, I love it.
LP: What do you love about it?
AW: Because I lived to get this age. God has blessed me to live to get to the age
that I am, and I think everybody have went through a lot. The most important thing, you
learn more about yourself, and you respect life, and you appreciate the things that’s here.
That’s the reason why I enjoy being sixty and you know, you can do a lot more. A lot of
people think that you’re real old when you’re sixty. I’ve never thought that my whole
�Anthony Wright
entire life. Most of the responsibilities that you grow up on like getting a house, getting
this and that, those things you should have. Some people don’t, but a lot of people have,
and you can go on to your new career. The peanut is a new career for me. So now I’m
enjoying life, that’s the only thing, enjoy life.
LP: That’s true.
AW: God had blessed me. I go to church, I’m a Christian--at least I think I am.
And so, it’s what you call when you get sixty, what is the other chapter going to be?
LP: So, where did you grow up? Are you from Charleston?
AW: I’m going to make you laugh now, all right, because I like to say it like this
here. No disrespect to my mom, okay, I was hatched.
LP: You were hatched. And what do you mean by hatched?
AW: Okay, it’s that I was raised here in Charleston, ever since from an infant. I
went to school. I went to Wallace High School.
LP: What high school?
AW: Wallace High School.
LP: Wallace High School, okay.
AW: Yeah, it was on Wallace Road, and it was one of the first black schools that
were closed back in the sixties. But I was born in Savannah, Georgia because my uncle
got sick and my mother left and went to Savannah, and I could wait no more. So I was
born in Savannah, in Chatham County, Savannah. I came back here right after that and
went to school, so I’ve been here all my life.
LP: Oh, okay. So, you mentioned a while ago, the peanut business is something
new. You worked for Lockheed Aerospace.
2
�Anthony Wright
3
AW: Let me say this here. In ’73, I went in the service, went in the Army. I spent
my time in the service. When I got out, I worked for Gulfstream Aerospace in Savannah,
Georgia. I came back here, I think it was ’84 and I started working for Lockheed in ’84,
until 1990.
LP: Okay, that’s right.
AW: And I got laid off and that’s where I’m at right now, starting doing peanuts.
LP: I didn't know you were in the Army, what was that like?
AW: I think the Army is one of the things that everybody should go to.
Everybody should go in. It’s an experience that you’ll never forget. It took me around the
world. When I got back to the United States, it showed you how much you would miss
the United States. When I got off the plane coming back from Korea, I kissed the ground
when I got back here in the United States because you don’t really know about the world
until you travel overseas.
So, the Army was a great experience for me at the time. And it puts structure in
you, and it teaches you about life, and they teach you how to grow up and be a man,
period. It’s kind some nice things in the educational things and stuff like this. Coming
out, you’re proud of yourself. To me, it was real nice. It gave me a chance to travel all
over the world, and enjoy myself, have fun. I seen thing I never seen before, and when I
came back here, like I said.
LP: You kissed the ground.
AW: Oh, yeah, because you appreciate what you really have missed. You don’t
know poverty until you really go overseas, how people live. You think you got it bad
here, but if you to some of the areas over there, it’s unbelievable.
�Anthony Wright
4
LP: Did you notice any changes in America when you came back, or anything
different about where you lived? Any changes that happened?
AW: Well, everybody had grown up a little bit more, and everybody had left, and
people got out of the range of doing kid things. I didn't really see anything too different,
except that I think over in Mt. Pleasant, because we moved over in Mt. Pleasant in the
seventies, and in ’73, I went into the service. When I went over in Mt. Pleasant in ’73,
you got to understand that none of that existed over there in Mt. Pleasant.
By the time you got across the bridge, which was the old Cooper River Bridge. It
was nothing but woods, to a certain extent. And so, I lived down there on Forty-One,
which you call the Phillips area, and my family was the Rouse family in that area because
my mother got remarried and stuff. And so it just changed from what you would say in
’73, it changed from being real country to a little more city life.
LP: Okay, so can you tell me about your family, your siblings, mom, dad?
AW: I had a great mom. I call her a warrior because at first, she had to raise me
by herself.
LP: So, you were the only child?
AW: No, we had five children during that period of time. There was two brothers
and a sister. And when she got married, we got two other siblings and she kind of raised
me and my two brothers, and one sister on her own, okay, and back at that time, that was
a lot for a woman to do. But she got well known because we used to live in Maryville,
and right there on Magnolia Road, and at the end of the road, during that period of time,
my mother was a cook at Royal Heart’s.
LP: Could you spell that?
�Anthony Wright
5
AW: Royal Hearts. R-O-Y-A-L Heart.
LP: Oh, Royal Heart, okay.
AW: Yeah, Royal Hearts. Yeah. It was an ice cream parlor during that period of
time, which everybody around here know just about where that area was during that
period of time. And like she was the only black cook that was in the front, and we’re
talking about back in the ‘50s to the ‘60s--I mean to the ‘70s. That’s when you had to ride
in the back of the--.
LP: Bus?
AW: No, in the back of the car because I never used to understand why she used
to ride in the back seat of the car when Mr. Heart used bring her home.
LP: Oh, okay.
AW: But that was a place that everybody would go and enjoy their self. I don’t
care if you were white, black, or what, you had to get in line. Mr. Heart didn't play that
stuff about color. Matter of fact, he was the first white black man that I ever knew in my
whole entire life, all right. What I mean by that is he was honest, he was just, and he
hired a lot of blacks, and treated them with respect, all the way around the clock. My
mother helped build his business for him, and I remember I was a little kid. I’ll never
forget this here.
My mother was in a trailer with a big window, and you have like an eight by
twenty window, all right. My mother used to sit around that, and I’ll never forget that this
man came up, and he didn't want mother to server him because she was different, you
know, she was black. And Mr. Heart was standing in the ice cream parlor, which is a step
down, that he heard it. And he ran past me and he told the man, said, “Well, if you don’t
�Anthony Wright
6
want to get served here, the best thing for you to do is get your butt on down the road.”
That kind of changed my life a lot during that period of time.
LP: Can you remember what age you were?
AW: I was a kid. I was about ten years old, okay.
LP: And you said that changed?
AW: My life and thinking because the way he treated people and I know racism
back at one point before that time, and I knew racism a little bit during that period of
time, but he gave me a different perspective of how to treat people and respect people.
And so, that kind of opened my mind up of being very open to life.
LP: Right.
AW: Otherwise, what happened in the past, you can’t forget it because you lived
through it, but you got to go on, you got to grow.
LP: Now, any fond memory of your brothers and sisters?
AW: Well, all of us stayed in--913 Magnolia Road, and there was a little black
community, West Ashley. Matter of fact, Maryville had its own black mayor at one time.
And right across from Asheville, Asheville had their own kind of like police department
at one time. And there was a railroad track dividing the races, as you would say because
across the railroad track was nothing but white, okay. And across on the other side of the
railroad track in Maryville was black. And so in 1970, I’ll never forget, in 1970, it took
one black person to move over to--.
LP: The other side of the tracks.
AW: And everybody just about moved out of that area. But that’s just the way it
was, but my siblings, oh, man, we grew up, we was very close together. My mother kept
�Anthony Wright
7
us very close together, kept us in church and stuff like this here. I have an older brother,
his name is William Lee. All of us had nicknames. His name was Chico, my name was
Mutt, M-U-T-T.
They used to call me Mutt because my ears used to be bigger than my head, and
they had this little show what you called Mutt and Jeff, and Mutt was the dog, and he had
all these long ears, and they used to say “look at Mutt on TV” (laughs). So, basically,
everybody who went to our school had a nickname. But she was a woman that lived by
herself, and I’ll never forget, as a kid, she went in the backyard, and she had a .38 special,
and she fired four times in the back yard. And I said, “Mom, why are you firing that gun
in the back yard?” She said, “I just want them to know that I’m here, in other words, to
know that I’m well protected and I know what to do if somebody comes break in my
house.” She was a single lady living by herself.
LP: Warrior.
AW: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I called her. I call myself a Mandingo warrior. I
guess you would call her a warrior. I can’t think of woman warrior. I would say a warrior,
okay, a woman warrior.
LP: So, earlier you mentioned you went to Wallace High School, and it closed
down around the --.
AW: It closed down in ’69.
LP: So, what was it like going to school there?
AW: Wallace was a close-knit school. I think we learned more being at Wallace
because when we ended with it, things changed. Some of us went to Middleton, and some
of us went to St. Andrews, and it kind of split us apart. I went there until the seventh
�Anthony Wright
8
grade, and it was a change because you talking about teachers were teachers then. And if
they tell you to do something you would do it. You would get spanked, you would get
punished, or you would get punished when you get back home, okay.
And teachers were there to really teach you something there. Now, the way the
structure of schools now, it’s kind of hard for teachers to survive because you got so
many violence in school. Now, during that period of time, you didn't have that many
violence because everybody was scared of the teachers, and scared of their mother and
their parents. And there was more respect in the neighborhood because there was less
guns. It was like fist fights, you know, because at least you could come back tomorrow
and shake it off or laugh it off and become friends again.
But now you got so many guns in the world, that the only thing you do is shoot
this person and it’s all over with, and the next thing you know, you’re going to
somebody’s funeral. So, it was a change because you talk about in the fifties to the
seventies, and some of it was good, some of it was bad. You had some racial tension, but
when we changed over to the other schools, it was a good idea, and I’m glad that they did
it, maybe at the wrong time, but they did it.
And you had white parents didn't want black teachers to spank their kids or hit
their kids, and that started a riot in our school and stuff, so it was quite a challenge, but
we got through it, we came through it, and we struggled through it, and now, I’m glad
that I came up at that time to be honest with you. I learned a lot, I got quite educated, and
to me, as being an African American, it seemed like we had to do more and work harder
for doors to open. And doors wasn’t open like they are now.
LP: So, do you feel like you were treated fairly as the other white students, once
�Anthony Wright
9
you were integrated?
AW: Not at the time because it took everybody to adjust, okay. Eventually, yeah,
it turned into that, but you know, you got racial tension in school all the way around, all
the way around. So, during that period of time in the seventies, yeah, you were treated a
little different. At least you felt a little different. In some forms, you were scared, in some
forms you were not, okay. And during that period of time, you had a march going on,
right on Savannah Highway. They were marching for the hospital and all that, so it was a
lot of tension, you know. But we got through it.
LP: For MUSC? The strike?
AW: Yes, MUSC.
LP: Okay. Let’s see, after high school, you went on to?
AW: Well, I didn't finish high school. I regretted that because I went to Mt.
Pleasant, and I went to Moultrie, got in a fight with a white guy. They put the white guy
out for a month, and put me out for a year. And actually, my mother wasn’t going to play
with me. I was right in what I did because the boy was harassing me for a couple weeks,
and he was three times bigger than me, and so I got tired of it, and I just challenged him
one day, and next thing I know, me and him had a big fight, and I got put out for a year.
And I got put out for a year, he got put out for 30 days. And so naturally, my
mother wasn’t going to sit around and let me stay around home running the streets, so I
went to Job Corps. I went to Job Corps and got my GED. And I survived with. I went in
for a carpenter trade--carpentry and welding. And after that, next thing I went into service
and I got a job here with the union doing carpenter work. After that, ’73, I went into the
service.
�Anthony Wright
10
LP: Do you have any children or did you ever get married?
AW: Yes, I got married, I got two children. One of my children died. He
committed suicide.
LP: Sorry to hear that.
AW: His name was Raymond Wright. He committed suicide. He was twenty-six
years old. He was in love and I guess he couldn’t take the change of him and his mate,
and he decided to give it up. When you lose a child, that’s something that you never
forget in your whole entire life. It’s an experience that you just never forget. Nobody can
ever tell you how to feel, even that they have maybe had death, but until you actually
went through it yourself, maybe you’ll understand a little bit more, but you would never
know how it feel when it happens. Nice kid, had a lot of things going for him, and he
committed suicide.
LP: So, I kind of want to get obviously into your business and how you came to
be Tony the Peanut Man. Charleston has a tradition of fruit and flower sellers at the
market. Are you old enough to remember the fruit and vegetable sellers or peddlers?
AW: I remember the peddlers.
LP: The peddlers?
AW: Not too much down at the market, but in the areas.
LP: In the areas, so they were--?
AW: Because the peddlers used to be what you call the old-time criers of the
cities, okay. Other words, they would have a wagon with different items, just like collard
greens, fish, ice, peanuts, watermelons, you name it.
LP: Flowers.
�Anthony Wright
11
AW: Flowers, you name it, and say, for instance, if you lived here on Hanover
Street--I used to live in an apartment there. It was an apartment over there between
Jackson Street and Hanover. There was a park on one side and then you had apartments,
Low income apartments. You could hear the sellers, which I called old-time criers. They
might be a block away, and their voice would be so loud, you would hear them saying,
“Watermelons, collard greens, anyway you want them, uh-huh. Only twenty-five cent ice,
anyway you want them, we got them. Uh-huh.”
And people used to wait around. They used to be on time. They used to have a
wagon walking by. Then you have a milkman coming by with his little white hat on and
they’ll be putting milk--they’d have like a little gate basket, and each area in the basket
would have milk in it, whether it’s white milk, chocolate milk, whatever, and they’ll
leave it at the door and stuff. I used to call people like that the old-time criers because
they used to walk the street and they used to sing out their song, they used to cry out their
song, okay, and so I kind of got that and I remember that as a kid. Trust me, I didn't have
no idea--.
LP: That you would--?
AW: That I would be selling peanuts today. That wasn’t in my structure--only
thing I can say, it’s a gift from God. That’s the only thing I can cope with that. I try to
look back at my life. People got gifts and you just got to find it, or sometime it finds you.
I think mine finds me instead of me find it. I worked at Gulfstream--no, excuse me, yes,
Gulfstream.
LP: Aerospace.
AW: Aerospace and I got laid off. I came to Charleston and worked for Lockheed
�Anthony Wright
12
and the plant closed. So, me and a guy was talking, just talking, and this guy was walking
by selling peanuts. And like I said, “Man, I ain’t working for nobody no more. I’m going
to work for myself. I don't care if I have to sell peanuts.” Then I wind up selling peanuts,
okay. I didn't have no idea that I would be doing it, even when I said those words. I just
got tired of being laid off, either laid off or the plant closed. And so, I went bankruptcy. I
was getting ready to lose everything I had. I was married. I had four kids.
And people didn't know how I was living at the time. We were living pretty good
because I worked at Lockheed. I lived in North Charleston on (00:28:18) Avenue, and
people see me leave out at 7:00 in the morning, come back at 3:30 from my job. And so,
they didn't know that I got laid off, that my lights used to be cut off, that I had to pay
child support and policemen used to come to my house and want to arrest me and stuff
like this here. I went down there, paid my child support. Times were hard, you know, and
so I made it through, and my mother called me one day and said, “You ought to talk to
Mr. [Marion] Hayward and sell some peanuts for him.” And so, she had give him a call,
but I met him down at the unemployment office.
Matter of fact, I’ll never forget it. I was getting ready to go to the homeless
shelter, and the shelter told me to go to the unemployment office. I went there and I seen
him. He used to know me as a kid because he used to call me Mutt. “Mutt, what you
doing at the unemployment office?” I said, “Well, I came looking for a job and to see if I
could get me some unemployment.” So, he said, “Why don’t you come and sell peanuts
for me?” I said, “Mr. Marion I ain’t selling no peanuts.” I’m thinking I’m making about
$16.00 an hour at Lockheed, and I ain’t selling no peanuts.
That’s a low-class job. That’s beneath me. I came back again, and almost like
�Anthony Wright
13
Jesus--when the clock strike three this would happen. The third time he asked me, he
said, “Why don’t you come and sell some peanuts?” He said something that I’ll never
forget my whole entire life. The old man stood up there and said, “Mutt, I’ll tell you like
this here.” He says, “You see that line over there?” I said, “Yes, Sir.” He said, “You
deserve to get in that line because you worked. I know you as a kid, you’re a hard
working little fellow there, and you deserve to get that money. But if you got the chance
to work and do something for yourself, will you take that opportunity?” He said, “Once
you get in that line, and you start getting that unemployment check, nine out of ten, you
going to feel satisfied with that, and you ain’t going to do nothing from there.” He said,
“But why don’t you give yourself a chance and give it a try?” And so, I said, “Okay.”
I went home, told my wife that I’m going to sell peanuts. She thought I was crazy.
I’ll be honest with you, I thought I was crazy. I said, “I met this old man.” I says, “I got to
do something, I don’t care what it is, I got to do something.” And especially when he said
that, you know, you can do something for yourself instead of just standing in a line. Then
he told me that, you know, what I work for, I deserve to be there. I deserve to get my
unemployment, but the thing is, if you can do something for yourself, why don’t you give
it a try? I said, “Okay, I’ll give it a try.” I was willing to try anything anyway.
I met him and he gave me thirty-six bags of peanuts. I’ll never forget, I came to
his house. He showed me how to do it. Matter of fact, he was roasting peanuts, and I
hadn’t knew how to roast, but he showed me to do it. He told me there was a man down
in the market, downtown market, Charleston market, that was getting ready to retire, and
he needed a man to fill in his spot. I said, “Okay.” And that was Mr. Ben [Campbell]. Mr.
Ben was kind of a legend down in the market himself. He used to wear a bowtie and he
�Anthony Wright
14
used to go around wear a bowtie, carry a basket and sell peanuts.
The thing about it, when he got off, he used to go to the hospitals and pray for
everybody in the hospitals and stuff. And so, he said, “You go down there. You meet Mr.
Ben.” I thought nothing about Mr. Ben. So, I went down to King Street and I started
selling peanuts from King Street all the way down to the market. So, I got there to the
market and I parked my car on the side, my old truck on the side. I walked in the market.
I didn't sell one bag of peanuts down on King Street because I was embarrassed about
what I was doing. I thought it really was an embarrassing job.
You got to understand I used to work at Lockheed making about $18.00 an hour,
and then all of a sudden, you get laid off, and you have some of your friends still working
at Lockheed because they haven’t got laid off yet. And like they would come by the
market and stuff like this. Some of them would laugh at me. And like, you know, not
right then, but after I started going down there more often. But anyway, I thought it was
below me. So when I walked in the market, I used to have a little hat on, a little baseball
cap, and I used to kind of try to put the baseball cap over my head where nobody could
really recognize me like they should.
And I used to say, “Peanuts,” real low. I didn't care if I really sold them or not
because I didn't know if this was for me or not. “Peanuts, peanuts.” And so, I was
walking through the aisle, and this lady, she just came up and she said--she knew me as a
kid because over in Mt. Pleasant we used to do baskets and stuff. She said, “Oh, no. Huhuh, you can’t come out here and do that. You got to act like Mr. Ben.” I said, “Who the
heck was Mr. Ben?” She said, “Mr. Ben used to come down here and hold his head up
and sell peanuts, and you got to sound loud.” I tried half of that day and the next day
�Anthony Wright
15
trying to sell peanuts. I only sold one. And so, when I came to her and she did that, she
said, “You got to sound loud. You got to really know that you really want to do this or
not.”
So, I walked through the market. There was a bunch of people in there, was in
there selling stuff, buying stuff, and I yell out, “Peanuts!” Everybody stopped and looked
at me. White man raised up his hand, and bought a bag of peanuts. In less than 20
minutes, I sold all the peanuts. There was like a little half a pound bag, no bigger than
this here, about full like this right here. It was a dollar a bag. Mr. Marion would get sixty
cents, I would get forty cents. That’s a lot of money to take care of family, ain’t it? But I
sold the peanuts and the next day, I came down there, had a little bit more confidence,
and sold some more peanuts.
Finally met Mr. Ben because one day that I was walking down the market, there
was this man in the market, and I was singing, and I messed around and bumped back in
this table. It was a Jewish guy. I bumped back in this table and he looked at me, and I was
dancing because somebody asked me to dance. And I started dancing with my basket and
I was just acting up. I wasn’t doing the dancing what I normally do right now, which is
acting up.
And I bumped back on this table, and I guess he didn't want me down there in the
market. And he said, “You dirty scumbag.” Actually, I turned around and looked at him
and told him, I said, “You have blessed day.” And I said, “You just have a blessed day,”
and I smiled. Lucky I met Mr. Ben. I told him what happened. Mr. Ben said, “You know,
I’ve been in the market for years. You will have people that don’t want you in the market
because you’re selling peanuts, and they’re thinking you’re making a lot of money, and
�Anthony Wright
16
because you don’t have no license and all this and that. During that period of time, we
didn't have to have a license and stuff. Well, you had to have a license; at least I didn't
have one, okay.
And I’ll never forget, we sit down there and he talked to me and then he walked
me through the market. He said, “Sometimes while you’re going in the market, what I
used to do when I seen some people that didn't like me because of who I was or my color
or what, I would walk out of the market, and then come right back in the market. He
would walk around them and come back in. When we were sitting down, he gave me a
card. He said, “You know Tony, I was never able to do anything with this here. Maybe
you can.” I said, “Okay.”
And so I walked down to the other end, and I forgot the girl’s name. She kept
telling me, “You got act like Mr. Ben” That’s what the girl said. I said, “What you
mean?” Because Mr. Ben used to come down through the market--he used to sing a song.
The way he did was, on the card it had, “got some boiled, got some toasted, got some
stewed, got some roasted.” And he used to do it, “Got them boiled, got them toasted, got
them stewed, got them roasted, which way you want?” And people used to buy peanuts
from him. And so, the girl said, “You know, you got to act like Mr. Ben. I said, “Okay.”
So, the next day, I came down and I had me a bowtie, all right. Didn’t have no straw hat
like this here now. That didn't came on until later on.
LP: Till later.
AW: Okay, and I came back and I went home and I practiced that song. I
practiced that song. “Got some boiled, got some toasted, got some stewed, got some
roasted.” I knew I had to put a little touch on it. I don’t know who came out first. I don’t
�Anthony Wright
17
if it was Ray Charles or me because it got came out with “Right One Baby.” And I came
out at the same time. I don’t know if he came out first or what, I don’t know, to be honest
with you. I think he did, but I didn't put no money on that, okay. And like, but anyway. I
practiced and practiced. And so I started practicing and I started singing this song. First I
would say, “Got them boiled, got them toasted, got them stewed, got them roasted.”
And so, the next day I came down to the market, got them boiled, got them
toasted, got them stewed, got them roasted. Which way you want them? And I found out
people started to like that. And I found out the crazier you started acting, people would
enjoy and they would want you to come by more because one of the things you have to
do is treat people with respect and say, “Yes, Ma’am, no, Ma’am,” and make them feel at
home, okay. And I said, “Aha.” Because the more I said that, the more people would buy
peanuts. And so maybe a couple weeks, I came back down there and I had the touch.
I came in the market, I had the song, and I singed it out loud. “I got some boiled
and I got some toasted, got some stewed and I got some roasted. Oh, yeah, peanut man,
uh-huh, catch him if you can because I got the right one baby, uh-huh.” Oh, man, all
right. And so, the more I sing that song, they come up. Then the next thing I know, it was
’92. Good Morning America came through the market.
But I didn't know that they were down there. So, naturally, I was going through
there singing my song, doing whatever necessary, and acting up because I started doing
rhymes and stuff like that. I didn't have my shirt. I made a hat like this here, but it wasn’t
a hat like I really liked it, but I made a hat something like that--not me, but a young lady
made a hat. I think it had a top on it and stuff like this here. Good Morning America came
and so this guy I know that’s behind me was following me with a mike, like this here, all
�Anthony Wright
18
the way up in the air and stuff. I was paying attention to him, but not attention to him
because I just thought he was another one of these reporters and stuff. And so he said,
“Tony,” after he started walking with me, then I forgot the lady that was over it during
that period of time, but she’s not there anymore.
And it was a guy at Good Morning America at the time, but they are not on the
show anymore. I think it was Joan Lunden, something like that. And she came up to me
and she said, “Tony, why don’t you do the peanut dance for me. We heard all about it.”
And I started doing the peanut dance, and they recorded me on TV. I didn't know that this
would go all around the world. And a guy came up to me. He said, “Man, I’m going to
tell you, I’m going to make you a super hero. I’m going to send you all the way around
the world.” I said, “Huh?” He said, “I’m going to send you all the way around the world.”
I said, “Okay.”
I didn't think nothing of it, until--I think the next day, my brother called me all the
way from Germany. He said, “Mutt, I seen you on TV, on Good Morning America.”
Other words, in order for them to introduce the market, they introduced me, and then
introduced the market, all right, so that was a gift. The next thing I know, I was getting
ready to go on the Bill Cosby show in Philadelphia. He had some scouts out here, and he
had this show called You Bet Your Life, old Groucho Marx show, all right, and he took
over that. And so, they had what you called an interview at one of the biggest hotels
down there. I forgot the name of it, but one of the biggest hotels down there in Charleston
on King Street.
Anyway, I’ll show you how God worked now. You got to believe in girl, Lord
have mercy. If I don’t believe in him, something’s wrong. Matter of fact, I went back to
�Anthony Wright
19
my car, and I was getting ready to go home, and my tire was flat on my car. So, I had to
go back and find a jack because I didn't have a jack or nothing, all right. I said, “Oh, my
goodness, what am I going to do now?”
So, I said, “Well, I just want to carry my basket money,” because I got some old
peanuts. I had about twenty bags of peanuts, twenty-five, twenty-six bags of peanuts left.
And I walked back through there and I was singing my song and I was asking people if
they had a jack. And so these two guys came up. Actually, I thought they were gay, to be
honest, all right, I really did. And like they heard me. They listened to me and stuff like
this here. They came up to me, and that’s when I really thought something was wrong.
They came up to me and said, “Hey, man, we’re having an audition at the hotel. Why
don’t you come on up at the hotel?” I said, “Okay.” They said, “Why don’t you come up
and follow us, then you’ll know where it’s at.” I said, “Okay.” Then they told me that
they had Bill Cosby and all the stuff right here.
And so, you had to go up there for an interview, and so I said, “Okay.” I said, “I’ll
go up there,” I said, “but I got to sell these peanuts.” He said, “Man, we’ll buy all the
peanuts.” I said, “Okay, you got me.” And I went into a hotel. Everybody was in there for
an audition, so they took me to the front of the line, so when I bust in the door, the first
thing I said, “Hey, hey, hey, now what I say-hey, oh, got some boiled,” and you know,
went through my song and all this good stuff right there. So, the judge up there was
looking at me, and they thought I was crazy. And so, actually, I didn't even have to do an
interview or nothing. They just said, “Hey, we want you on the show.”
I went there to Philadelphia, paid the ticket and everything, and like I was on this
show, and they treated me real good. And then he asked me to do the song because
�Anthony Wright
20
somehow, some people in Philadelphia heard about the song, I guess, or after they’d been
to Charleston or what. And people said, “Let him sing the song.” I said, “Okay.” Bill
Cosby said, “Okay, how about let him sing the song?” And like, sure enough, he asked
me, he said, “Well, how do you do this?” I said, “Well, you got to say what kind of
peanuts you got.” He said, “You mean to tell me people walk up to you and say, ‘What
kind of peanuts you got?’” I said, “Yes, Sir.” And so he came by me, he said, “Hey,
Mister, what kind of peanuts you got?”
And I yelled out and he jumped back because he was scared and stuff like this
here. And like, the next thing I know, I was on You Bet Your Life. And then, next thing I
know, all kinds of news people, this and that right there. And then they started doing the
story of me about keeping the tradition going in Charleston. And then I got all kind of
awards. You know, when you get an award from your own, you feel great about your life.
I was getting a lot of awards from this company, from whites. But when you get it from
your own, it’s something different.
I was getting an award from the Alpha Beta Club, and at church and stuff like this
here, and I almost cried because, like I said, it’s a different feeling when you get from
your own. I mean it’s a different feeling for getting an award, period, now don’t get me
wrong. Then I got Proclamation Award. I got so many awards from doing peanuts, it was
unbelievable. I mean it was like a door opened like never before in my whole entire life.
Peanuts took me to a place that I don't think a lot of people have been.
And since 1996, I started my own canned peanuts in stores. It lasted for a while. I
went through a divorce, so they had to be off the shelf. I’m getting ready to put them back
on the shelf in about a year now. And it did real good. And like the peanuts took me
�Anthony Wright
21
through a level that only one person could have give me this gift, God. It’s a God-given
gift. If you want to believe in a miracle, I’m that miracle. And I honestly believe that I am
because as an African American, or anybody, especially young people, we let pride get in
our way. Pride almost got in my way, stopping my gift from coming to me, and that’s
what we do because we get embarrassed about doing things. Anything that’s right, we get
embarrassed about.
Anything that’s wrong, we don’t really care. But anything that’s right, we get
embarrassed by it, so I go around to schools and stuff like this, and trying to teach kids
the value of having a strong belief in yourself that you can do it. Don’t let your pride get
in your way. Don’t let your pride stop your dream. If you’ve got a dream, dreams are
here, but you’ve got to put it in action. A lot of people used to tell me, say, “Tony, you
need to wait on the Lord.” I used to tell them like this here, I said, “You all go ahead and
wait on the Lord”. There was this guy at my house one time. I let him come over and he
needed to stay over one night. And we was talking about that same incident, and he said,
“Man, I’m going to wait on the Lord.” Okay, he ain’t got no job or nothing like this, and
I’m out there selling peanuts. So, he said that to me. So, I mentioned to him, I said, “Why
don’t you come out and sell peanuts?” He said, “Man, I don’t know how to do no peanuts
and stuff.” He stayed there for a couple of days with us, and he said, “I’m just going to
wait on the Lord.” And to me, the Lord had sent him his blessing by sending him to my
house, and for me to tell him, say, “Hey, you know, you could go out there and sell
peanuts, all right.”
And no, but he was waiting on the Lord. But the Lord’s sending me and told me
give him some peanuts to sell, but he didn't want to do it. So, he missed what the Lord
�Anthony Wright
22
was giving him, so he went back to the shelter because I had to throw him out of my
stuff. So, I learned a lot from that. And like Charleston had treated me very well. First,
God had treated me very well, and then I had wanted to do a comic book, I think in 2004,
I started doing a comic book. And like I wanted to make the comic book around me,
about me teaching kids how to sell peanuts, how to be entrepreneurs and stuff like this
here.
LP: Is it the Peanut Man Experience?
AW: It’s the Peanut Man.
LP: Oh, the Peanut Man, okay.
AW: Yeah, and it was almost something similar to Clark Kent, but a little
different. I was playing both parts, and I had a kid in the stadium working selling peanuts
and stuff like this here. And like, so I would be like Clark Kent, and the Peanut Man
would be the Peanut Man. And so, I would be out there selling peanuts in my normal hat.
The Peanut Man would be wearing this here, and have on a suit, and it worked real well. I
sold about 12,000 copies, and like I said, went through a divorce, so I had to put that on
hold. So, now I’m coming back with it, and I’m coming out with another one in about six
months. It had a lot of educational values.
It had about George Washington Carver. It had about if you work hard, things will
come to you. It had the bad people that was bullying this one little kid, and the Peanut
Man come and saved him and stuff like this here, and started him selling peanuts and it
went on from there. It was a very inspirational story. I was very proud of that. I’m very
proud of a lot of things that I did. Like I told you, my mother and father, I had so many
deaths in my family, it’s unbelievable.
�Anthony Wright
23
My grandmother died in ’89. My father died in 1993. He got struck down by
lightning, he went in the Wando River and got struck down by lightning, and like some
storm that came out of nowhere and struck him down. Then my son died, like I told you,
and then my mother died. She had a massive heart attack. I had so many cousins and
aunts died, it was a crying shame. Matter of fact, my mother was the one that really hit
me real hard, because you know, when you lose a mother, that’s something you’re never
going to forget. And like my mother went down to Savannah to see my aunt.
The aunt died, and she was going down there because my uncle was sick, and the
next week we went to the funeral. She had two funerals to go to, two aunts died. And I
guess the stress was so hard, on the way coming back, I’ll never forget it, I let her off at
the house. And I went in there for some reason, I don’t know why, I went in my mother’s
house and checked out every room. I’m talking about every room, from the closet to the
bathroom, under the bed, you name it. I locked all the doors and everything. And I got a
call that night that had a massive heart attack. I had some challenge in my life. Matter of
fact, even with the peanuts, it was a struggle doing peanuts.
And I’ll never forget it, when I started working at The Citadel, you know, being
an African American is kind of hard. I don’t care what anybody say. At that time, it was
hard to get in certain places and stuff like this here. They had some contractors, but they
were white contractors, and they had black persons in there that was doing donations for
somebody--doing it for a homeless shelter or something like this here, right. And I was an
entrepreneur, and like I came out to The Citadel, working out in the yards, and then
(00:59:57) start getting notice of me. And so, when I came out there, I was a hit.
So, I didn't want to get inside. I’m not going to call any name, but I went to the
�Anthony Wright
24
staff and talked to one man. He said, “Tony, we going to get you in there next year.” Next
year came, talked to him again, no. He said, “Tony, we’re going to get you in there next
year.” I said, “Okay.” Three years went by, and I asked him again because they never had
a black vendor in there. They always had white vendors, like they had at The Citadel.
And so, I went to the mayor, and me and the mayor fought like I don’t know what. And
this is a true story. Me and him fought. I mean not physically fought, but argued.
He was sitting at his desk, I was sitting at that end, and I told him, I said, “You
mean to tell me, I can’t get into The Citadel?” And he said, “Why you can’t get in The
Citadel?” I said, “Well, I don’t know if I’m black or what.” I said, “I don’t know what the
circumstances are, but I can’t get into The Citadel. I done tried and everything else.” And
then I told the mayor, I said, “You the mayor,” and I said, “Anybody,” I said, “You
supposed to be a Democrat.” I said, “You stand up for what is right.” I said, “If anybody
can get me in there, you should be able to get me in there.”
Actually, he didn't get me in there, but I guess he called up to The Citadel or
somebody did, and they gave me a chance. So, the chance was I had to do a bid with this
other guy. So, it was like I had the highest bid, well that naturally give it to The Citadel,
but you had to put at least forty percent, period, because I mean you got to bid at least
forty percent over. And so, naturally, the guy was there, so I said, “Man, I’m going to
way over the back.” I said, “I’m going to bid fifty-one percent.” So, it was a silent bid, all
right, and like they gave me the (01:02:28), and they said, “The guy overbid you.” He bid
fifty-two percent.
I said, “You mean to tell me he going to bid fifty-two percent?” And I said, “I’m
not going to get any money at all, and I bid fifty-one percent?” I said, “No.” So, I let that
�Anthony Wright
25
pass. I played the game like they wanted to play. So, I went to each staff member--some
of the staff members, I wouldn’t say all. And I told them like this here, that was one of
the concessions. I said, “I’m going to bid ninety-six percent the next time. I don’t care.
I’m getting in there.” Sure enough, the next year came, I bid ninety-six percent. I didn't
care if I got a penny or not. I was getting in there.
They told me the other guy just didn't bid, which I think he did, but I bid ninetysix percent. So, I bid that, so they said, “Well, Tony, since you bid ninety-six percent,
we’re going to charge you fifty-five percent to go in there.” I said, “Okay, but it’s forty
percent.” He said, “But we’re going to charge you fifty-five percent.” I said, “Okay.” I
went and did my first game, then I started doing more games, and I started doing that
dance and that song, and I started treat people real good, and they treated me real good.
They liked the peanuts and all. And it’s not all about peanuts because anybody
can sell peanuts. It’s about the personality and everything else. So, they called me up,
they said, “Well,” the next four games, they called me up and said, “Well, Tony, we
going to put you back at forty percent.” I said, “Okay.” Then I went over to The River
Dogs. I had to fight to get in there, all right, because they didn't have any black vendors
in there. I went to Joe Riley again, and I said, “I tried to get into The River Dogs, and I
couldn’t get in The River Dogs.”
And so, me and him argued again. And I told him I need a specific thing from
him. I said, “Look here,” I said, “Now, your name is up on that stadium. The park is Joe
Riley Stadium, all right, so there’s supposed to be equal in there.” He said, “Tony, I’m
doing everything I can. Check with me back in about two weeks.” Okay, I give him a call
two weeks. I didn't get no answer.
�Anthony Wright
26
And so I left a message because I’m going to get me an answer because I was
pretty popular and all this good stuff around right here. And I said, “You tell Mayor
Riley, if you don’t call me back within two hours, I’m going to every newspaper,” and
expressing what I said to him in his office. And he knew what I said. The secretary was
telling me, “Well, Tony, you know, he’s in a meeting in Columbia. I don’t care where
he’s at. In two hours, I told you what I’m getting ready to do.” I’m sorry, but I threatened
the man, but it worked because he was in a meeting in Columbia, and he called me back
from his home to my house, on his private phone and said, “Tony, give me time until I
got back.” Anyway, he got back, we worked that out. It wasn’t nothing against Mike
Vick. Mike Vick was over the stadium now.
But the thing is, he had some managers, okay. Mike Vick wanted me in there, but
he didn't know what was going on, so I can’t fault him, but I can fault his managers at the
time. So, actually, they got me in. And then next thing I knew, I went over there to Daniel
Island. I had almost the same problem. But I opened the doors for a lot of people, that’s
what it boils down to, and I felt good about that, with my status, me selling peanuts, me
dancing around. I remember it was kind of embarrassing one time because--not
embarrassing. You either have a lot of nerve, or you had to have a lot of pride because
people would come up to me and laugh, “Oh, you’re dancing like an old monkey and
stuff.” But if you stick with it, it’ll work. And I stuck with it, and I worked, and look at
me now.
LP: So, you’ve talked about a lot of the challenges that you experienced, whether
you know, growing up in a segregated south, to being laid off, to going to the plant, to the
loss of family members. So, I guess after about twenty-one years or so, your business
�Anthony Wright
27
went up in flames?
AW: Yes.
LP: Do you mind sharing what that was like?
AW: It was the most horrible time in my whole entire--it was Sunday. I forgot
exactly what date is it. I think it was May 29th, if I’m not mistaken. It was the last Sunday
in the month. Actually, I’ve been doing this for years and years, and we had about twenty
bags of peanuts. I had a tent, a forty-by-forty tent about say double this room right here,
okay. And like, I had peanuts stacked up on this side, say like that right there, and right
here I had my cooking stuff right here. And over here, I had some oil where I would fry
peanuts and all this good stuff back here. I had long hoses on the burners and stuff like
this here.
And then I would cook my peanuts up. And I checked everything before I left.
And I had one guy who checked everything before he left behind me, and stuff like this
here. So, I don’t actually know what happened because I always go in the house for a
break, and I’ll probably lay down for about an hour or two hours because I already got it
under control. I know how long it takes me to cook peanuts. I know when to go back and
check the peanuts and all this good stuff right here.
Actually, I cooked, it would take me sixteen hours cooking peanuts, okay. And
naturally, I’m not going to stay up there for the whole sixteen hours. I’m going to learn
how to cut corners. Every two hours, I would go back out there and check peanuts and
stuff like this because everything’s supposed to be secure. But what I think happened is
that one of the guys didn't tight the hose up onto the burner, okay, and air got out on it,
and somehow it caught a flame. And when it caught a flame, we’re talking about twenty
�Anthony Wright
28
stacks of peanuts. And that caught a fire. Other words, peanuts are like lighter fluid, okay.
It’s like doing leaves outside, okay. I mean when it catch, that’s it, okay. And then you
have tanks right beside it and then you had some cooking oil, so all that caught afire.
But I was inside and my next-door neighbor came to me and like knocked on the
door. I mean I guess he said like he was knocking on the door for a minute because I was
sleeping because I got my time schedule to wake up. And like he knocked on the door
and I jumped up, went to the door, and he said, “Man, there’s a fire out in the back yard.”
I said, “A fire?” He said, “Yeah.” I had on some sandals, and I didn't have on my shirt. I
had some pants on.
So, I ran out calling myself, trying to out the fire, I guess. And so, as I come out
the front door, going into the back, it’s a hose right in the back of my yard, right by the
tent where the peanuts was on fire. So, I tried to go up there and get close to it, and turn
the hose back out the fire, tried to out the fire. But I didn't make it there. I went back and
I heard this sound say, “Boom.” So, I thought one of the tanks has exploded, and I ran
back, I said to myself, “It’s good to be live chicken than a dead hero.”
And like the firemen were out there. They came out there, and they outed the fire,
and that was one of the most miserable nights in my whole entire life. But like that night,
never forget this one fireman. I’m searching for him. If you put something in here, they
tell about I’m looking for him. This one fireman said, “Tony, you know, you’re a good
man.” I’m listening to him, you know, he said, “You’re a real good man, man.” He said,
“You know when people hear about this here, they could come to your aid.” I said,
“Yeah, is that right?” He said, “Yeah,” he said, “You don’t know how people are when
people get in a situation and when somebody’s good at the neighborhood, or in the
�Anthony Wright
29
community.” And I didn't think nothing of it to be honest with you, didn't think nothing
of it. And so, the next morning, I mean I cried just about that night.
I had all my permits and all that right there, so I wasn’t really worried about that.
The only thing is I just didn't have no insurance because I had just went through a
divorce. I went through a divorce and I had to pay back a lot of money out, you know, for
my ex-wife. And actually, I was broke. I was going farther and farther in the hole.
People didn't know. I was making a lot of money out there at The Citadel, The
River Dogs, for eight years, and like all that time, I was spending money out, like I don’t
know, I was paying like $6000 a month or whatever, through a divorce. And like, and
then all of a sudden, there’s a fire. And I said, “Oh, man, what am I going to do?” I said,
“Oh, Lord, what am I going to do?” And that morning, dear God, that morning, Harve
Jacobs came to my house. You know, when you see Harve Jacobs come to your house,
you’re thinking that you done committed a crime because he’s in the crime business; you
understand what I’m saying.
I thought I was getting ready to go to jail. And so Harve came to the house and he
said, “Tony, we heard about your fire, and we are here to help you out.” And I told him, I
said, “I thought you come here to lock me up.” I said, “What did I do man?” He said,
“No, we’re coming out here to see what we can do, and put you on the air, and let
everybody see the disaster back here.” I said, “Okay.” The next thing I know, Channel
Four came and set up in my yard also, and then the Charleston Paper came, all the
newspapers came, everybody came. I was like, “Man, what’s going on here,” you know,
because I’d never had that much attention or anything like this. And I really didn't think
people would care that much about me. I thought I was just doing something in the
�Anthony Wright
30
neighborhood. I’d go to schools and teach people about George Washington Carver,
about black history, doing black history because of my status of stuff like this here.
And like what turned out to be a pretty bad situation, turned out to be a God gift
from heaven. I mean I didn't get a lot of money. Like this here, I got some material
things, people would be dropping off pots, people was dropping off this. Mary’s Flowers
used to be over there in Mt. Pleasant. She called me up and she had wanted to start a
fundraiser. And then the people of In Town, I think that’s the name of the company, In
Town, they got in contact with me and they had wanted to do fundraisers around the area
to different clubs, this and that.
Out of all that, the thing that broke me down into tears more than anything in the
world, Piggly Wiggly came aboard--The River Dogs came aboard. The River Dogs gave
me peanuts. All together I raised about $6000. And I made sure that they were putting it
in the bank, and people would want to come up and give me money, and I’d tell them
what bank it is and all this good stuff right here because I was trying to do things right.
And maybe that’s why I lost a lot of money because I turned down a lot of money
because I told them to go to the bank and stuff. But anyway, it wasn’t about the money,
but it was the way the people’s heart was. But two things that broke me down and made
me cry. First, it was in Daniel Island, two little white boys and one little white girl.
They got out in the rain, matter of fact, the same weekend that The River Dogs
was contributing to me to raise money and all this good stuff right here. They got out in
the rain on a weekend in Daniel Island, and they stood on the street in the rain, and they
sold Kool-Aid, lemonade, and they raised $456.00, and they called me over there and
these little kids gave it to me. It was two little white boys and a white girl--I say that for a
�Anthony Wright
31
reason.
Then, the thing that really got me was Mary Ford School. You know, you never
tell what you do for people because I used to go around there and give them peanuts and
they’d call me, Black History Week, I wouldn’t charge them or nothing like this here.
And we’d just have a fun time. The teachers told me for two weeks, this was going on. I
said, “What you mean?” They said, “We didn't know what these kids was doing.” And
they said, “The parents didn't know what they were doing.” They said, “They was raising
up the pennies.” I think the highest thing maybe were quarters. They raised up $125.00,
went to the principal, and told the principal that they wanted to give this to Tony.
The principal called me up, and each kid told me what they did and the reason
why they did it, and said, “Mr. Tony we love you because of the things that you did at the
school.” Don’t you know I got that bag in my house, and I wouldn’t cash it? I wouldn’t
turn it--I wouldn’t take a penny out of it for nothing in the world right now. They made
all kind of crafts and stuff like this here, and I put it on my wall and stuff.
I got my wall decorated with all kind of stuff, but that meant more to me than
anything in the world. Those kids on Daniel Island. We talking about little kids. These
kids over there on Daniel Island, they had to be less than ten years old. And their parents
called me up and told me what the kids were doing, this stuff like this here. And I mean
what can you say after that? So, I’m blessed. People ask me, said, “How did this happen?
Tony, how did you get like this?”
I always tell them that I have a friend walking with me, he watches out for me
every day. They said, “Tony, you know, you carry a gun or nothing like this here around
with you. You need some protection.” Because I have money out in my hands walking
�Anthony Wright
32
the street. I said, “No, I have a friend walking with me, and like that was God.” And I
said, “You know, even you--a good example for yourself, you thought you might have
got in that chair by yourself, but somebody helped you get in that chair. Somebody
prayed for you to get in that chair, and they talked to God, and somehow, God put you in
that chair.” Because I remember when I lost everything I had, God started sending
people to me--didn't know it at the time, thought I was doing it all myself--to guide me
this way.
Either I could take the message or not take the message, and that’s how my life
started. If it wasn’t for him up there, not my mother, not my father, not Mr. Marion. I
mean they was tools, all right. They got the gift because the Lord went through them to
guide me where I’m at right now. So, I know it’s God. I’ll put it like this here for some
people that don’t believe in God as the Creator, okay. That Creator created me and made
me who I am right now, which is that I’m a Baptist and I just believe I’m a Baptist
person, and I don’t knock nobody else religion because everybody have religion and
everybody have somebody to pray for, even though, if you didn't believe in God, and you
don’t believe in religion or you don’t believe in a God, you still believe in something
because that’s your belief.
So, I’m a blessed man. Miss Palmer, I’m a truly blessed man. I’m gifted. When
you look at me, I’m gifted. I don’t believe I work hard--twenty-hours a day boiling the
peanuts. In 1990--I’ll show you how gifted I was. In 1994, I think it was, or ’95, I got
every dignitary together, a peanut man, every dignitary that means something, from
Henry Brown, we talking about Republicans. Democrats, all. Got what you call the guy
that’s over the House right now, the House Speaker from Charleston, Clyburn.
�Anthony Wright
33
I got all the mayors, except for mayor of North Charleston because he had to go
out of town--every dignitary that was--the Lieutenant Governor. The Governor couldn’t
make it because he had to go out of town. And I did something for the homeless shelter-what I wanted to do, and I did it. I had wanted to give them the best food that you can
give them. And I had my friends cook it. I told everybody at the shelter I want them to
take off. I don’t want them to cook nothing. Went to the shelter right there, Crisis
Ministry. We had tents set up all the way around. I even had Frankie the Big Bopper out
here, you heard of him, right. Had him out there, and like I have--they had steak and
chicken, anything you could think of.
They had ice cream. You name it, they had it. They had hamburgers, they had hot
dogs, they had turkey. They had the best food that you can find, barbecued ribs,
barbecued pork ribs, beef ribs, you name it. Matter of fact, I did it for three years. And
like didn't do it no more because I went kind of broke then. And like that’s what God had
gifted me with. Three years I did that. And the dignitaries came, we had food out there,
and all of them worked. They were serving food left and right, you name it. I was proud
of that moment. So I did some positive things. I’m proud of myself as a peanut man, I
really am.
I’m a gifted man. I’ll say it again, I’m a gifted man, and that’s it. But that song, I
been doing that song for twenty-two years, and the song is a simple song, but there was a
lot of character with it, there was a lot of respect with it. There was a lot of appreciation.
People could see it. People could see it on you, all right. You don’t have to lie, cheat, all
this good stuff right here. They used to come to me on the streets and stuff like this here,
and I used to tell them, I said, “Man, why don’t you go and sell some peanuts and do
�Anthony Wright
34
this?” I believe you can sell anything. I believe if you kill a roach and put it on the table,
something I believe in. If you have the patience to be there, it’ll sell.
I’m talking about a cockroach. If you spray it and you’re out there, and you have
the patience, it’ll sell. A lot of people don’t have that courage to go out there and sell
things, got a lot that do. Think about now, Miss Palmer, think about it. I really want you
to think about this. Suppose I passed that up and let my pride get in the way. I ask myself
that all the time because that’s what we do, because sometimes we’re, “Oh, I ain’t doing
that. Boy, I’m too this and that for that.” We won’t say that in church. I’m saying go to
church and do the same thing. That’s why we go to church, to get help.
But the thing is, think about it. Maybe you are in there, I’m not going in there,
huh-uh. You let your pride get in your way. “Huh-uh, that’s below me”. That’s what I
almost did. I thank God today for giving me the courage, not to let my pride to get in the
way. He gave me the courage to go. And now, that’s the only thing I talk about, and once
you got that strength, you ain’t going to lose it, and you can do anything. Now I can do
anything. I’m sixty years old, and I feel like I’m nineteen years old, I really do. And I
come up with new ideas all the time. Like I told you, I came up with the comic book.
Then the next thing I did, I said I really want to make a Peanut Man, and I really wanted
to make a Peanut Man, not like Planters, but a Peanut Man, so I came out with peanuts
and costumes. That’s just one more chapter. What is the next chapter? I don’t know.
We’ll see.
LP: Do you see yourself as a local legend or working in a larger Charleston
tradition?
AW: I don’t see myself as a legend, but I see myself as a human being trying to
�Anthony Wright
35
survive. I’ve heard that before. A lot of people have told me that. People have told me
that I was an icon, but I don’t look at myself as that. I just look at myself as just making a
living. I know that a lot of kids and a lot of people look up to me for strength because I
made it, and I made it through peanuts.
And so I know a lot of people look at me in a different manner, so I know I done
have to hold myself up in a certain manner of being. I can’t do a lot of things that a lot of
other people would do because I know everywhere I go, I’m being recognized.
Somebody know me, I don’t care if it’s white, black, Chinese or what. I go in a
restaurant, I go in, and they’re like, “Oh, you’re the peanut man, you’re this and that.” So,
I have to have myself on guard and stuff like this here at all times. And like, do I
appreciate it? Yeah. Sometimes it’s not easy being in the limelight, okay. A lot of people
say this and that right there, not easy.
A lot of times it’s real hard being in the limelight because you got so many people
watching you. Bigger, yeah, I’m going to do bigger things. Right now, the only thing
holding me up from the fire that I had is a building. I’m looking for a building. I think I
just found one. And once I get the building, it’s going to be on Sixty-One. And that’s
where my new beginning will be at.
LP: Your next chapter.
AW: My next chapter, and my goal is to be the number one peanut man in the
world. I don’t know if I’m going to make it or not, but that’s what I believe, okay. I just
want to leave something behind that people can appreciate. Not to say that the guy did
this or that right there, to get this award or whatever, just to say that I helped somebody
become an entrepreneur, and everybody will tell you, if they ask me for help, man, I done
�Anthony Wright
36
tell so many people how to cook peanuts, how to do this, how to do that. Never was
embarrassed by it or nothing like this here.
Only regret that I have, being immature, and I want you to understand this here, if
you want to write it, that’s fine, too. I started in the canning business. When I started to
do peanuts, I didn't know nothing about that. I think I was just a kid that somebody
mentioned to me about doing canned peanuts. I thought it was something good to do. I’m
not that very well educated on--when you’re trying to sell something. I can’t think--I’m
losing my mind. I can’t think of it, but the canned peanuts I regret because this man came
from McCall Farms.
They used to have peanuts, what you call Margaret Holmes peanuts, the worst
peanuts in the world. You taste them peanut? Oh, my goodness. I met them at The
Citadel. They came up and they said, “Tony.” No, this man introduces me to him, and he
said, “This is Tony the Peanut Man.” And he said, “He makes the best peanuts in the
world.” He said, “Tony, you make the best peanuts in the world?” He said, “Yeah.” He
said, “Give me a call. I do canned peanuts.” He said, “I’ll make you a million in one
year.” I said, “I’ll make you two million in a year.” God working again. I went back
home and somehow I lost the ticket.
Cleaning up in the attic a year later, found the ticket. Called the man, the man
said, “Tony, I’ve been waiting for you for a long time, what happened?” I told him what
happened. Anyway, the reason why I say I regret it is because I was immature. I didn't
know nothing about the business, and actually, I made him a fortune and didn't make
myself nothing. I gave him the secret of selling peanuts, and I guess I had wanted peanuts
in the stores, so I said, “Hey, you put my cans of peanuts, and I’ll pay you for the
�Anthony Wright
37
peanuts.”
And how he got me was, because I didn't know no better. He said, “Well, let’s do
all the peanuts the same.” You know, his peanuts and mine, and I did that. And like right
now, he’s a millionaire now. Matter of fact, the same peanuts that you got--Peanut Patch,
got my taste. He actually stole my recipe from me. And because I’m going through a
lawyer and I’ve been going through my divorce and all this good stuff right here, it lasted
for so many years, that I couldn’t do anything about it. And like, he did me a job, but I
still got me and I still got my name, and things are really rolling for me. So, I don’t look
bad at it, I look at it, this was a bad mistake, a business mistake.
LP: But a learning lesson.
AW: A learning lesson. It was something like, what you call the guy that sold
peanuts a while back? He had cookies, the black guy. I’m thinking of him right now. And
actually, he did the same thing. He gave his recipe away and they actually took his recipe
away. But Oprah Winfrey helped him to get his recipe back. I can’t think of his name
right now. But that’s my goal. My goal is being the number one peanut man in the world,
and my goal is to go on the Oprah Winfrey Show. I’ve been on Bill Cosby’s show, I’ve
been on Major League III, the movie Major League III. They cut me, but I’ve been there,
and they paid me real good. So, that’s my next goal, to go on Oprah Winfrey Show.
That’s where I’m at.
LP: So, anything else coming full circle, that you would like to say?
AW: I say to people out there, nothing less than the best because the one who
created you was the very best. Never settle for anything less than your best. If God
created the best, and he was the best, why should you settle for anything less than your
�Anthony Wright
38
best. I take that with me, and everywhere I go, I say it. People who are having problems
out there, because everybody has problems. Nobody’s no bigger or better than nobody
else. Even if you’ve got money, you’ve got problems, so everybody got problems.
Especially death, especially when my son died, always remember if I ain’t learned
nothing else in this last sixty years, I’ve learned this right here. You got to be patient on
anything that you do in life, and you got to remember anything happens in life, it shall
pass. If you follow those rules right there, we’ll be all right. Anything in this world, it
shall pass, I don’t care if it’s bad, good, bad marriage, bad this, bad that, it’ll pass. I’m a
proven example. It’ll pass. If your mother died, father died, this person died, that person
died, think about it. You’ve had death in your family. Didn’t it pass, didn't it heal? All
right, and so if you can have the patience of Job, and believe in the Bible when it say, it
shall pass, you’ll be all right. You can accomplish anything.
LP: Well, Mr. Tony, it was a pleasure. I thank you for coming in today.
AW: I hope I did a little good in the neighborhood, okay. I don’t know if I did. I
don’t know if answered the questions, or give you a chance to ask the questions, I don’t
know, but thank you for having me.
LP: You’re welcome.
AW: I do appreciate that. And since we are talking, all right, I’m not going to ask
you how old you are, but I know that you’re young, all right. You’re in your twenties, I
assume, okay. What are your goals, Miss Palmer, and if you write this here, this is what I
want you to put down. Miss Palmer, what are your goals now, and where do you expect
to be at ten years from now?
LP: Well, I think I’m just like you, you know, everyone wants to live a life that is
�Anthony Wright
39
fulfilling and one that they can look back on and be proud of, you know, no matter if
you’ve made mistakes or had losses, or challenges, and you know, just you can look back
on it and have a positive outlook on it. As far as you know, tomorrow, ten years from
now, or yesterday, ten years ago, I think that’s more so irrelevant, but more so, is the time
and what you learn from it. And I think that’s really why we wanted to get you in here, to
share your story and your experiences because I think that’s the most important thing, to
capture that, so you can pass it on to the world really.
AW: Thank you.
LP: You’re welcome.
AW: And I do appreciate it.
LP: You’re very welcome.
AW: All right.
LP: All right.
AW: My company is Peanut Time.
LP: Peanut Time.
AW: All right. I was Phenoma Nuts. I haven’t changed it because of the divorce.
The reason why I call it Phenoma Nuts is because I was a nut--I am a nut. I feel good
when people call me crazy. Doesn’t bother me one bit. And I thought I was phenomenal,
all right, but now, it’s Peanut Time.
LP: Well, I tasted those peanuts. They are phenomenal. So, thank you very much.
AW: Thank you.
LP: All right.
AW: And I do appreciate it, and I do appreciate you having the time and thought
�Anthony Wright
of me and such of a manner to invite me down here.
LP: All right.
End of recording.
LBP
3/25/13
Edited 12 July 14 DCT
Edited Dec 30, 2015 MLL
40
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lashika Palmer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Anthony Wright
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 44 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Anthony Wright, interviewed by Lashika Palmer, 4 February, 2013
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--Segregation--South Carolina--History--20th Century
Entrepreneurship
Peanut products--Marketing
Description
An account of the resource
Anthony Wright, renowned locally as "Tony the Peanut Man" was born in Savannah, Georgia on December 12, 1952. He grew up in the segregated Maryville community with his mother and five siblings. He attended Wallace High School and following school integration he went to Moultrie High. He was suspended for a year because he fought with a Caucasian student. He decided to quit school and instead earn his GED. In 1973 enlisted in the United States Army. After his service, Wright was employed by Gulfstream Aerospace in Savannah, and Lockheed in Charleston. When Lockheed closed, Wright struggled to get a good paying job. Mr. Marion Howard encouraged him to try selling peanuts in the Charleston market. Reluctantly, he decided to give it a try. At the beginning he was shy and other sellers in the market urged him to "be more like Mr. Ben," who was old and beloved peanut seller. Wright created a song and dance that helped him to increase sales. Wright sang, "I got some boiled and I got some toasted, got some stewed and I got some roasted. Oh, yeah, peanut man, uh-huh, catch him if you can because I got the right one baby, uh-huh." Wright's friendly and personable style made him successful and lead to appearances on television and a film. Moreover, his attitude and community involvement earned him the love and recognition of his fellow Charlestonians. Wright's entrepreneur spirit took him to write a comic book, Peanut Man. He used it as a tool to persuade children to follow their dreams. He also looked for ways to expand his business. In the interview he describes his struggles as an African-American vendor to be allowed to sell peanuts at The Citadel, Joe Riley Stadium, and the Daniel Island stadium and also the challenges he experienced when a fire destroyed his business and when a deal to sell can peanuts ended badly. In the interview he asserts being grateful for his life experiences and looking at the future with enthusiasm, "my goal is to be the number one peanut man in the world ... I just want to leave something behind that people can appreciate."
<br />This interview is a part of the COHP's "Working Charleston" series. Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:93892" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Working Charleston
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-02-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/133
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/abef42074688add654fe7ccb35c813d4.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=EualSqKDs3z%7Ez0fbXzi8htr8miwaCuwuWk-a063WYyQNZKq2jyiZHO-vchQn88Cy1-uZqFKgqIm3VPPb5C2IYkYJ0V2Y328N-EO1QZ4Le%7E182MJv4FKSokTjE4uI5BOc-E0ITmwHlqkmC%7E6qckv71HQuwMW6CeavO8gSIiXuETrekVBQ8Xrs2pqs-axc6qvStGH5XcsN2vfyu-owJIxqVzFQLVJHJ4TYo6vDXJYEtGVtBdFbfH%7EGtpg3O5eGJ3P8RQvYwTwTd9nmbQSDrMuAmXUl7KZmYmCQH3wAZhnBNyTxihDjt%7EPhLW8Sg17l9YDxydbQvx4s2fOgmzqfhctD2w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
25460a4ea7e29c206d1e047d2279a83c
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – ARLINGTON SANFORD
Interviewee: ARLINGTON SANFORD
Interviewer: MELANIE MURRAY
Interview Date: March 23, 2012
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 101 minutes
MELANIE MURRAY: Okay, today is Friday, March 23rd. I am here with
Arlington Sanford, Chief Arlington Sanford. We’re just going to test our mikes, I am sure
that they work, but we seem to be picking up. I see little moving lines; that’s a good sign.
I didn’t really decide to bring my written questions; I was just going to kind of start at the
beginning and let you kind of dictate things. So, my first question really will be tell me
about Danbury when you were a child, and what it was like.
ARLINGTON SANFORD: All right, my life then, okay, Danbury, Connecticut. I
was born real young, Melanie, December 21, 1923. Danbury, this was known as the hat
city of the world, had a lot of big hat factories. Anyway, had I not joined the Navy, I
probably would have been a hatter, so I’m glad the war came along, to tell you the truth.
Now, although I’ve got a picture of the Pearl Harbor, I was not at Pearl Harbor, let’s get
that straight ahead of time, but December 7th, my birthday was the twenty-first, two
weeks later, I turned eighteen.
MM: So, you joined the Navy at eighteen.
AS: Oh, yeah, well, Pearl Harbor the 7th, on the 8th, like all across the country, all
red-blooded American boys were in front of the recruiting stations. My recruiting station,
the Marine Corps, the Army and the Coastguard were all located in the post office
�Arlington Sanford
2
building. Well, I checked with the Army, they wanted me to go tomorrow, the next day.
Wait a minute now, so I didn't bother with that, and the Marines wasn’t open. And I
didn't know nothing about military.
So, the Coastguard, I said, “I don’t want to guard the coast, you know.” So, I
walked a few blocks up the road to the Navy, and old bulldog Chief there, and I said,
“Hey, Chief, what’s the difference in the Army and the Navy?” I didn't know. He said,
“Well, son, the main thing is the Army walk, the Navy rides,” so I took the Navy. I had to
have a good reason. However, I could have gone right away into the Navy. However, the
Navy, because I was going to graduate in June from high school--the Navy preferred we
graduate. So, I graduated June 19th, and June 23rd I was in the Navy.
Of course, you join the Navy, you go to boot camp, Newport, Rhode Island, they
called it a dust bowl, right on the edge of the ocean there somewhere. And I did five
weeks up there. After I graduated from boot camp, sent me to diesel school in South
Richmond, Virginia, right on the James River, old railroad station factory. It had been
muddy, the river flooded, and mud this deep. We got there, and who was there, “Who are
you guys?” First class of the school.
They hadn’t even had the ship’s company--the ship’s company, the people who
run it, so we became the first class, became the ship’s company till the other regular
personnel come in. I’m going to be diesel engine. Never saw a diesel; didn't know a gas
cap from a spark plug. Graduated from school, all we did was read books. They said if
you go ashore without getting muddy and dirty, boy, that was pretty good in Richmond,
Virginia, where all those girls parked outside the gate waiting for us to take off. Rough
duty.
�Arlington Sanford
3
Anyway, I graduated as a Fireman First Class, and I had not yet seen a diesel. I
wouldn’t know one if I fell over one. And of course, after that, we went on an LST335
for a while, training, listening up and down a few months, doing that kind of stuff. And
finally, we went to Boston, Massachusetts, Navy yard up there, where they were building
the LST307, which was the one I was assigned to.
MM: LST stands for?
AS: It stands for landing ship tanks, but we had nicknames for it, as large slow
target, or last stop Tokyo. We had all kinds of nicknames. We’ll have some fun with this
stuff, as long as we’re doing like we’re doing. We had the big Cocoanut Grove, a big
dance hall, and it caught fire. And people abandoned two-story place, coming down, and
they’d get against the doors and they couldn’t open because the doors swung in, and five
hundred people were killed there. I brought that up because that started the reasoning for
why doors swing out now. You’ll notice all the stores and places you go, you don't see
them coming in. That door probably swings out, I’m sure. See, that’s why they don't
swing in. They crush against them, you can’t open them.
MM: And that was in Richmond?
AS: No, that was in Boston. Anyway, we finally got the ship and it was twenty
below zero. They were still--didn't have a boiler on it yet, so we lived in the Fargo
Building in Boston shipyard, and went aboard during the day. At night, the Skipper says,
“Go ashore and do what you can to get warm.” Keep one guy on, every thirty minutes
relieve him on the ship and this and that. Finally, we got to go aboard the ship.
We got it built, and I think we was up there a month or so, maybe a little longer.
On the 23rd of December, we commissioned the ship. When you commissioned a ship,
�Arlington Sanford
4
that’s when you raised the flag, the ensign--I’ll tell you a story about that one later,
ensign. Now the ship’s in commission, and if you’re aboard at that time, you become
what is known as a plank owner. It goes way back to the sailing days, walking the plank
kind of a thing.
There was only fifty-eight of us on the ship then. So, we set sail, went down to
Bayonne, New Jersey and New York, and loaded up--started loading materials. Of course
in those days, when you left port, you didn't know where you were going. And we loaded
up--I want to make sure all this is in order now. Yeah, at Pier 92, we loaded up in
Bayonne, New Jersey, and all these--like I went to visit my wife in Beaufort National
Cemetery the other day, and March the 17th was the last liberty we had in the states
before we went overseas, St. Patrick’s Day.
I always tell Susan and my wife about St. Patty’s Day, my last liberty in New
York. We went roller skating. Same story I told all those years.
MM: So, December 23rd, you commissioned the ship.
AS: Commissioned the ship and then set sail to load. And in the receiving station,
where they called where you were staying while the ship was being built, that’s where I
met my friend Jack [Jack Junior Faughn] from Peoria, Illinois. And we were closer than
brothers. We were inseparable; everywhere we went together, all through the war and did
the same thing.
I’m bringing this up as a point for later. It just so happens, you could tell by my
notes, it just so happened, where we were loading, there was a railroad tracks where they
would bring them to load ships and stuff. And I don’t know if you’re familiar that the
railroad stations, they have these big wagons about near as big as this table, big wheels
�Arlington Sanford
5
that they push up to the luggage compartment of the train, and offload the luggage, and
would roll the wagon up to the depot, so to give it to the passengers.
Well, being good old sailors as we are, we did what we used to call midnight
small stores. Small stores in the Navy means when you go to the ship’s clothing
department, to buy equipment, we didn't have such a thing on our ship. But we had a
midnight small store. Well, actually, we were stealing it. So, we requisitioned two of
those railroad cars, and brought them to the ship, I don’t know why, just because they
were there, I think. If it ain’t tied down, it becomes Navy. And we rolled them under the
tank deck--the tank deck of an LST is just like this big room, only twice as wide, but darn
near about this height, three hundred feet long inside that ship.
AS: They got a big elevator they put up topside of a load of stuff up there. But we
rolled those things and tied them down to the back end of the tank deck. And the next
day, the railroad officials come aboard looking for them. We go, “Yeah, we got one.” So,
we gave them one.
MM: Just one?
AS: Don’t tell. Anyway, that was good. So finally, we set sail under-manned. We
still had the fifty-eight crew members, which wasn’t our full complement. They needed
us right away because where was we heading, North Africa, and big invasions and all that
stuff over in North Africa. And we just stopped in Bermuda and picked up a few extra
people on the way. Heading into the entrance there of Gibraltar, the Straits of Gibraltar,
North Africa, there’s a narrow area there. Torpedo--Bill Ledfern—funny, nice little
fellow, too.
He was a little older than us. He was a phone talker, a headset, earphones, they’re
�Arlington Sanford
6
sound powered. You press a button to talk, you release the button to listen. And he was
on the bow of this ship, and he looked over like this, and he says, “Torpedo.” It went
right under our ship. The Germans didn't know that we were shallow draft then, you
know, didn't draw a lot of water. Had it been, maybe they’d hit it at the stern, they might
have blowed us up, but they missed. From that day on, till he passed away, he was known
as Torpedo Bill. That was his nickname. Anyway, all right, you get me going, I’m telling
you there’s a lot of stories here.
MM: That’s a good one.
AS: Anyway, we finally got in North Africa, Mers-el-Kebir, that’s kind of a
rhymed one. That’s why you remember MEK, and we started our war efforts there. Old
Pop Hyland, he was the oldest guy on the ship, an old Irishman, bald-headed, hair flipped
over like this, he’d flip it back to cover his bald head-- he was in World War I. He
wouldn’t let them cut his hair in boot camp and got away with it. He was an old tough
guy, and he and I were good buddies.
We was in engineering, by the way, we were oil kings- all the liquids, water, fuel,
oil, all kind of things like that, fresh water, sea water, that was our job, part of it. Shoot, I
never knew he drank until one day I saw him sober. Boy, he was always drunk. It was a
time--well, back in the states, before we went, I remember one time, it was cold and
miserable, and he was so drunk, couldn’t climb no Jacob’s ladder. Had to raise the boat
level with the deck, so he could roll over and help him off--we had some good times, I
tell you.
Old Pop was a good old fellow, though. So, we went ashore together in North
Africa, in Arzew, A-R-Z-E-W, and that was in May--May 19th, I think. I can’t remember,
�Arlington Sanford
7
May the 19th. Coming back to the ship, it was just getting dusk. The bow doors were open
like that. And we could walk--laying on the pier, got ramps and the ramp comes down,
you just walk back and forth. That’s how you unloaded stuff on the sand, the beaches.
Well, or we could walk around up the gang plank, and in dress blues, in North Africa.
Wow. I said, “come on Pop.” He was drunk as usual. “Come on, Pop.”
Down the tank deck’s easier than climbing the ladder. We no sooner got in the
tank, and boom, a bomb hit right in front of the bow doors from here to there. They had a
bunch of pipes there and all, some kind of a building, some of them wrapped around the
bow of this ship. Oh maybe a hundred yards, if that far, from there, up the road a bit,
there was an army anti-aircraft gun crew in a tent. I know they was in there playing cards
because I’ll tell you about that. But a bomb hit, you know, right in front of that flaps.
The bomb hole was three or four feet in diameter, about three feet deep. Anyway,
they all got wiped out, and we know they’re playing cards there, and so the next morning,
Doc says--because I was one that went up there, and he decided to grab a mattress cover,
or a mattress, and we slept in a bunk about this high, and about that thick, a mattress in it.
It’s like putting a pillow cover on. They came in handy, too, by the way. We’d go up
there and pick up body parts. The biggest piece I found was a jawbone with a bunch of
teeth. That’s what I was going to--my note right here. I forgot. When all else fails, read
the directions. That’s what I used to tell my buddies. How much detail should I go into?
MM: You can go into as much as you like, gory details.
AS: Gory, like I was just telling you. You want to hear those gory details? A lot
of people--I don’t tell them very often. Sometimes they get to me, too. Well, I want to tell
you about this. It’s going into the dark--that’s why I bring up Jack. Anyway, Pop believed
�Arlington Sanford
8
to the day he died, that I saved his life. I didn't do nothing, I just said come on, Pop, on
the tank deck. And of course, I ran to my 20-millimeter anti-aircraft gun.
There’s similar shells in that little ash tray with the slug that comes out of them.
Fought my first air raid in my dress blues, and the gun, you know, you got grease is
flying, all this piping, they white stripe, they call it piping, they get greasy, ticked me off,
too. But anyway, I think we shot more ammunition that night than we shot in all the war
put together because that’s first air raid, and all the ships and everything. I’ll show you
Bizerte Harbor eventually. It was quite a harbor. Anyway, I guess that’s enough of that
part. Well, of course, you know, we carried Patton, his tanks.
We carried him one time through North Africa. He was fighting Rommel,
Rommel the great German Commander. And that was our first air raid. So, after that,
things settle down a bit and we did mucho, many, many drills, just load, unload, just
practicing, loading equipment, unloading it and reaching and this and that, so we got
really good at it. We spent over ten months in the Mediterranean, referred to mostly as
the Med, you know, beaching practices. That one night, we got orders. We was tied up at
some pier, a rickety bombed, all blowed-up pier, unload two thousand gallons of fuel for
the Army. Well, we didn't know where the fuel was, it was dark you know. But the Army
was all over there.
Pop and I walked down that rickety pier, trying to find somebody who knew
something. “Halt, who goes there? Halt, who goes there?” We would sing, “Anchors
away my boy,” was singing all patriotic sayings, I’m telling you, it scared the heck out of
me. And nobody could tell us nothing. I tell you what, to this day, Pop and I found a line
we hooked up to, and pumped the two thousand gallons or whatever it was, fuel. But that
�Arlington Sanford
9
line might have been busted off the other end. We don’t know. It might have ended up in
the Mediterranean, but we pumped the two thousand gallons of fuel. That was our job. I
don’t know where it went, don’t care where it went.
MM: You got the job done.
AS: We got out of Dodge, I tell you that. Anyway, now Bizerte Harbor--you see
the streaks of light there? That’s Bizerte Harbor. That particular picture and two or three
others--I don’t know if you heard of the Stars and Stripes and the Yank Magazine , they
were something like these rag papers that you got up at the store. And all done by
professional military photographers, and they took these pictures from different places,
and that’s how we got some of them because we weren’t supposed to take pictures, which
we did. We had our own--good conduct, that Good Conduct Medal, you know what that
means? That’s just the stuff you got away with. That’s all that was.
MM: All the stuff you didn't get caught with.
AS: You didn’t get caught, that’s it. Anyway, those streaks of light there, what
they call tracers because you can see them. We had gun sights on our twenty millimeter
crosshairs and all, and after the first couple of air raids, they vibrated loose. That didn't do
us no good, so we just threw them over the side, so a tracer--you have a tracer, which
lights up the sky like that. You’ve seen them in movies. What people don’t know though,
or think about probably, but in between, you have an armor piercing, high explosive
incendiary, and maybe a couple other shells, not all those are a tracer.
We doubled up on them anyway, and see them day or night. Each one of those
streaks represents a gun muzzle in Bizerte Harbor. The caption there is, “A typical night
in Bizerte Harbor.” We had some rough air raids, I’ll tell you that. The Germans were
�Arlington Sanford
10
good. They had good equipment, well trained, plenty of experience. Got to give them
credit where credit’s due. They just had a nutty leader, that’s all. I almost said something.
You might read between the lines there, but anyway, yeah, they were good. The Japs
were good. They were very good, night fighting in the battles in the ships and all, very
good, better than we were.
But anyway, we’d always get three or four every night, three or four air raids.
And then, sometimes it slacked off a little bit, but they had this old puddle jumper would
come along every once in a while, and every time a plane comes, you go to general
quarters. So, you didn't get much sleep. We slept in our clothes all the time. I said, “Ain’t
no dang German going to make me sleep in my clothes, but after that first raid, I changed
my mind. Anyway, that’s what happened there. The propaganda girls, Tokyo Rose over
the Pacific, and Axis Sally, was in the Atlantic side.
So, that’s supposed to be bad morale for the military, and it didn't bother us
sailors, but the Army, it might have. You’d be surprised how accurate they were. They
could name--“Hey Joe, did you know your wife’s fooling around with your best friend
back home while you’re over here in this foxhole?” She could name names and addresses
and everything, sure did. It didn't bother us because we crowed around the radio shack on
the bridge because there was the latest music we could listen to. But we finally--we didn't
call her Axis Sally, we called her Dirty Gertie from Bizerte. We gave her a nickname.
Anyways, but that was Axis Sally. There was a stray dog on the beach in Tunisia, that’s
Bizerte Harbor. We adopted him the radio man did, took it up the radio shack, and the
dog became known as Tunis.
And that dog hated the Skipper, the Captain. And the dog knew when that Captain
�Arlington Sanford
11
was walking up the ladder, and he (barking), biting at the heels. We had him for quite a
while, and a British ship pulled alongside, and the dog disappeared. The British are
known--they would carry animals and chickens and goats and stuff, fresh meat and all
that. They did on their ships. I think that’s where the dog went.
MM: You think they took the dog, or the dog just abandoned you?
AS: I think the Captain gave it to them.
MM: Oh, wow.
AS: Anyway, that--the invasion of Africa was Operation Torch. Mark Clark, who
was once Citadel Commander here, he led that invasion.
MM: Wow. I didn't know that.
AS: You didn't?
MM: Not about that particular invasion, but yeah, I know Mark Clark.
AS: Well, now we’re going to go to Husky. That’s the invasion of Sicily, after we
secured Africa. In fact, Rommel finally got driven out of Africa, through the Harbor of
Bizerte. Big harbor, he put a hundred ships in it, huge harbor. There’s always a lot of
ships, and always a lot of action. That’s why all that. That’s Operation Husky. So, we
invaded. G-E-L-A, Gela was where we landed. I wonder how it is, we always got the
toughest beaches to land in? Luck of the draw, I guess, but Gela was bad. No, really, I
didn't know how bad it was till after the war, reading some of the stuff on the website.
I didn't know that. I remember one time the tanks--the Germans almost got us
knocked out of that beach. Tanks, the German tanks were coming up behind the sand
dunes, coming up on top of the sand dunes, and I didn't know my brother was in the
Navy. On the cruiser Philadelphia, that one, the cruiser and they destroyed--boom--you
�Arlington Sanford
12
know how you go in the carnival, and those little ducks--I don't know if you’ve ever seen
them. They shoot at them, knock over a duck. Three or four of those tanks come around
like that, and so the Germans got wise, and the crews started knocking them out. I saw
that happen.
You know, these battleships were big ships like that, you could actually sit there
and watch the shell leave. You could watch them. That’s how big those are. They
weighed a couple of tons, a couple of thousand pounds, the shells come out of there. I
won’t get into all that stuff, that ain’t important. Okay. Yeah, I watched and saw it – an
ammo ship, the ammo ships they always keep further away from the fleet. Why? Well,
that was a good reason, too, because they got hit by a bomb, and you talk about a big
skyrocket, that was it.
When the smoke cleared, that was just the water, probably some debris out there
floating around, but that’s it. And the ship next to us, maybe about a hundred feet, the
LST313. They were unloading their tanks. They had tanks with guys down below in the
tanks and this and that. They got hit by a bomb. Well, that about wiped out everything
and everybody. That burned for three days and nights. Another LST came up with bow
on the stern, and some of the guys were able to jump over to the other ship. Anyway, I
was on our boat, too, LCVP, landing craft vehicle personnel is what that means, and we
decided to go aboard the ship. We climb aboard, and the first place we did, went down to
the gedunk, where they keep candy and stuff like that.
We opened the hatch, and you know, burned and smoke and black, you know.
That was a newer ship. And we didn't have that on our ship. There was Baby Ruth. Wow,
I hadn’t seen them in a long time, you know. Now this compartment is completely filled.
�Arlington Sanford
13
And the Baby Ruth are wrapped in cellophane over, just like you buy it out of the store.
So, boy, we grabbed a couple of boxes of them, brought them back on board the ship, got
back, thought, “Oh, man, we’re going to have a Baby Ruth.” Take one bite, oh, you
know, that smoke permeated, went right through all that stuff and ruined them. Now, that
ticked us off. I remember
I wrote an article for the The Scuttle Butt, which is the amphibious magazine-outfit we belonged to. I wrote an article, “LST313 Gone, but not Forgotten,” I says, “But
we got even with that guy.” We finally shot him down the next day. It’s bad enough to
get the ship knocked out, but to ruin them good Baby Ruths, that’s unforgiveable. I’m
telling you, they can’t get away with stuff like that, no way. Now, you have heard of
friendly fire. That happens from the beginning of time. I think those cave men, they were
out there throwing rocks and things, they probably hit one of their buddies in the head
with a rock. “Oh, I’m sorry.” Well, that happens.
Well, we had a--the first and only time in the whole war, we didn't fire that night.
And the reason for that was that the fleet was over here, and we happened to be anchored
over further to the left. It was darker over there. Now had we fired, and the Skipper said
don’t fire because the flashes of light like that would outline the ship, kind of make a
good target. And they had a big air raid. We wanted to shoot, but didn't. So, finally, that
air raid lands, but the fleet’s still at battle stations and fifteen, twenty minutes later, here
comes another big flight of planes.
This time, boy, you’d see these planes being shot down all over the place. Boy,
yay, you know. Well, it just so happened the next day, we found out they were American
C-47 planes loaded with American paratroopers that Patton had called in, and then
�Arlington Sanford
14
changed his mind to turn them around, and too late. And they come in on the tail end of
that air raid. They’d shot down twenty-three of them, and forty-two are very badly
damaged, and a lot more killed there. Friendly fire, it happens. It happens every day,
every war, every time. You hear what happened over there in Afghanistan. It happens.
Now, where am I? Let’s see.
MM: Sicily, I think we’re still in Sicily.
AS: While we were over here--you’ve seen movies of the gunfire at naval battles,
I’m sure, and the shells hitting the water like this, and you’re following these planes, and
boom, boom, boom, boom, right on down to the water line. Well, that happened that
night. We’re way over here. They don’t even know we’re over there. So port and
starboard, left and right, we’re all over on the port side because all the firing’s coming
from over here. I’ll guarantee you, Melanie, I was scared that night more than any.
And it is tough, I’ll guarantee you. It is very tough to dig a foxhole in a steel deck
with your fingernails. That’s true. Would I tell you a story? I would. Anyways, we landed
in-- that was Gela--we landed in Messina Harbor. That was where it also--when Patton
driving Rommel and other Germans out of Sicily, and they evacuated, and a lot of troops,
German troops and equipment were able to escape and go over to Italy. It wasn’t very far
across there. And a ferry slip was there, which we had bombed and sunk the ferry, so we
just slipped into the ferry slip and dropped the ramp.
Well, boy, it was stinky. We didn't have air conditioning, a vent fan, like a big
vent. They had bombed a troop train that was burning, and the smell was rough. We had
to finally cut the vent fans off. It was bad. And so, standing on the bow of the ship one
day there, the road coming to and from the ferry, they would divide it with something
�Arlington Sanford
15
about this wide, with trees and a little grassed area, so one lane just going, and one lane
coming to load, and just unloading.
It had these little trees, these little wire fences like this around it, and two little
kids, eight, nine years old out there playing, pulled the wire, booby-trap. Killed one child,
we carried one to the hospital, and wondered what happened. In Sicily again, at the end
of the pier, we had a trash can where we dumped the food and all of that. We didn't
realize that they were starving. And I saw one little bakery that was open and they had a
few loaves of bread and a line a mile long, the bakers were baking as fast as they could.
Little apples about that green, that’s all that I ever saw to eat.
Why I’m bringing that up is at the end of the pier, we threw that trash--the adults,
mostly the men, they’d fight each other, club each other to get at that garbage. Well, I
was standing on the tank deck in the bowels of --we’re on the ramp, on the pier, and four
little girls came along, like boom, boom, boom, boom, probably about three, four--maybe
the oldest one ten years old. The oldest one said, “chocolata, chocolata.” Always famous
throughout the world and always is, always was I guess. So I had some chocolate and I
got it to her. You know what, based on what I just told you about the adults clubbing each
other, that little girl, she broke that thing in pieces, gave the other kids first, before she ate
it.
One day, a few years ago, I was sitting up there in Walterboro with my wife, and
on the TV there was a paratrooper giving the little kid a piece of chocolate. I don’t know
what the heck happened to me. I broke down and started crying right there. I don't know
what it was. Boy, it got to me. I’m a sweet old guy until I get mad, then you don’t want to
make me mad. You’re not going to be glad no more. All right. Where did we get
�Arlington Sanford
16
through? I think we’re through with Sicily. Operation Avalanche, that’s the invasion of
Italy. All I need is a couple of little notes to remind me, that’s all I do.
MM: There’s a lot to tell.
AS: All right. Now, since the invasion of Sicily, Italy was about on its last leg
there, and the King of Italy made special arrangements with the Allies, and they
surrendered shortly after Sicily. Now we’re on the way in, in the invasion fleet, heading
into the beach. I think I mentioned this to you. Going in, and the ships only a hundred
feet apart, when the word came, Ike’s headquarters, that Italy had surrendered. Well,
everybody’s like, “Oh, it’s going to be a piece of cake now that Italy surrendered.” Well,
even in Italy then it was much, but five minutes later, an Italian sub surfaced right
between our ship and another.
And that aircraft carrier I showed you a picture of, where is that? Oh, right here,
right in front of me. That’s our flight deck, see the wooden deck they built? And these
little Piper Cubs, they only flew about eighty, ninety, a hundred miles an hour. In fact, all
planes in those days, 300 miles an hour was fast, so it ain’t like today. You’re really one
on one. Our mast was only seventy-two feet out of the water, and I’ve seen a time I
thought they was going to hit our plane--the German fighters. I think I’ll change the
subject. I don’t know whether it was camaraderie because they were veterans, we were
veterans, every once in a while, the pilot would wave to us and we’d wave back. And just
like that, and that’s beside the point.
So, the sub--and then I told you about the aircraft carrier--our ship, the next ship there’s only ten included in the Pacific that was converted, a one-time use. The two
spotter--there were spotter planes, little Piper--little tiny things. They ship next to us
�Arlington Sanford
17
going in had the--the plane took off, and all of a sudden nosedived right in front of the
ship. The gun was up. The plane hit it, and the ship run right over it and that was it. It’s
probably still in the bottom of the water where it was today. I get bleary-eyed here
sometimes. All right.
Yeah, the carrier, okay. Now, we carried 1700 tons of ammunition, and the
Germans were just about turned around--almost get turned around and run--and allies
running out--our troops were running out of ammo, and we had it on our ship. We had
440 Army engineers aboard, who were supposed to unload that ammo. Well, we aren’t
there very long when they got the word, sent half of those engineers to the front as
infantry. And a couple hours later, sent the other half, they got wiped out. That left a crew
of sixty-nine crew members and seven officers to load and unload that ammunition.
Five days and nights, if you don’t think you can stay awake five days and nights,
with constant--thirty-nine major air raids. They were trying to knock us out real bad. And
we all got little nicks, see here, and all up here, I got all cut up. But those days--we didn't
get Purple Hearts, as they called--were Band-Aid wounds. Of course, we weren’t related
to Fifty-Seven Heinz varieties either. You don’t know what that--I’ll tell you off-camera.
Yeah, we had Army rations, that’s what we had to eat. If we weren’t on the gun,
we were down there unloading, and that’s where the wagon came in handy. We loaded
that – three hundred feet of ammunition cases are heavy. And you think that suitcase is
heavy, you had all you can do. Usually take two guys to pick--one on each handle, to load
that three hundred feet, brought it up to the--there were Army personnel on the beach,
helped us after we got it off the ship, and heading to the front lines. And they sure did,
and finally, we got it unloaded.
�Arlington Sanford
18
Now, I got the word ironic here somewheres, it is ironic. I didn't know about that
till later, but reading history and stuff, I found out about it. The tide of battle was very,
very close to being--running us off the beaches. Well, the Germans were good at what
they did. I got to give them credit for that. They had completely mined--still way up on
the hill, they mined--heavily mined the area, so our troops couldn’t get in. It’s what saved
our butt. The Germans couldn’t get down to wipe us out .They couldn’t cross their own
mine field. Had it not been for them, we would have probably gotten knocked off the
beach. Isn’t that something? Good for the Germans; they did us a good deed that time.
Okay. I’m going through this pretty good.
MM: Yeah, you’re doing a great job.
AS: Well, like I said, the Band-aid wounds, yeah, well, a little here--in the ten
months we were over there, I could safely say we went through at least three hundred
major air raids in that time, and we got very, very good. Now going over this--I’d never
shot a gun. Hell, I--excuse me--that one slipped. I shot a twenty-two and a BB gun, not a
twenty millimeter anti-aircraft gun. But going overseas, we’d practice. You know what,
they had a plane like these little--well, a little bigger than that one, towing a sleeve, a
target, maybe two or three hundred feet behind it.
But going to where practicing--the pilot would have been safer on the sleeve, the
way we were shooting, I tell you. But we got good. We got good after constant practice
and plenty of air raids, we got good. So, after Salerno, we just went up the coast in
support of other operations like Naples and Monte Casino--I don’t know if you ever
heard of Monte Casino, the big monastery on top of the mountain. They finally bombed it
into submission, but that did the Germans more good than harm because they had all the
�Arlington Sanford
19
rubble to hide behind.
All right. So, we finally run out of stuff to do down in the Mediterranean, and
they sent us to England. And we got to--now during all this time, Jack and I would go
ashore. We palled around on the ship, and did all week. I got letters from his mother and
his girlfriend, named Phyllis--well, I’ll tell you that later. Sometimes I’d say, “Hey, Jack,
got a letter from Phyllis, ha, ha, ha.” That’s how close we were, you know. Well, anyway,
we went up and landed at Milford Haven, and then northern tip of England, and spent--I
don't know why we did that, but we was up there for a short time. Then we came down to
Weymouth, England.
That was my favorite port. I don't know why, I was on the boat a lot. They sent us
ashore for something and I stopped there. There’s an old warehouse there, some guys had
a little tiny baby mouse. They were gonna kill him, I said, “Oh, give him to me.” I had
him like this in my hand. I had all our foul weather gear. We looked like men from Mars,
dirty, nasty, dirty and all you know. And stopped at this little store, a little tiny store.
It couldn’t be ten feet square, and some pretty little girl there, and an elderly lady
was in there, and they had stack of--I bought every paper in there and brought it back to
the ship. And I had the little mouse like this. I kept going like this. That little girl there,
her name was Peggy. She said, “What you got?” I said, “Oh, it’s my buddy.” “Let me see
him.” “No.” “Let me see him.” Finally she pulled my hand and the mouse jumped. I
recaptured the mouse though.
MM: Wow, that’s pretty good.
AS: But going back to the ship with the mouse, like little did I know about the
facts of life, you know. Going back, I said I was going to make a mascot out of a mouse,
�Arlington Sanford
20
a little tiny thing that’s supposed to have babies. I threw it over the side. But every time
we stopped in Weymouth, I would stop by that store. I always said, “Peggy, you going to
take me the movies tonight?” “No.” “Okay, see you again.” I kept that on for two or
three times, back and forth. Finally, she said, “Okay, I’ll take you.” And I said, “since
you’re so good, I’ll take you.”
We became good friends. In fact, we almost got married. I didn't though.
Anyhow, that was another story. I came home after the war, and a girl I knew from ten
years old, I married her instead. That’s the results over there (points to daughter Susan).
We were married fifty-seven years when she passed away ten years ago. Anyhow, where
am I at now? All right. Oh, yeah, well, when we finally got into Plymouth or South
Hampton, one of the big ports, they gave us liberty, port--what they call port to your left
and right starboard, port and starboard liberty. Half the ship went for five days leave, and
when they came back, the other half--and Jack and I went to London. Everybody went to
London. And we slept in the same bed together, lucky to find a place to live. He’d go his
way, I’d go my way. I met a little girl there and we went roller skating.
It had to be close to Christmas, and on the way back, we cut a shortcut through a
cemetery, a big wide sidewalk, wide as this room. And part way through that, an air raid-that’s when they had the V-2 rockets, the buzz bombs they called them. You’ve heard of
them, read about them I guess. Had an attack. She’s like, “Quick, got to run to the
shelter.” “Lead the way.” Got in this shelter. It was a crypt about this big. Plaques all
over the wall, here lies he, here she lies. All these people lies here and lies there. I says,
“I’m getting out of Dodge, Baby. I’ll take my chances with those buzz bombs, they don’t
scare me.” But they say the dead won’t hurt you, but you hurt yourself getting away from
�Arlington Sanford
21
them, I’ll guarantee you. I’m chicken when it comes to that. Oh, I got out of there.
MM: I don't blame you.
AS: The reason I say it was close to Christmas, they had a little Christmas thing
right there, and lit up. I don’t remember now, but that was not for me, I’ll guarantee you
that. Anyway, we finally went back to the ship, and the other crew took off. Of course,
we went to a lot of ports in England, Milford Haven, Plymouth, Weymouth,
Bournemouth, Southampton, those are the major--the Navy, the seaports. Now they
wanted to see how good we were. The three LSTs, my ship and two others, they sent us
to sea--these observers, British and American observers. We’re going to practice antiaircraft fire.
Well, we were supposed to fire, and then the other two ships fire. So, they pulled
a sleeve. They didn't get part way across, and what happened, we clipped the wire pulling
it, and the sleeve was--they was good at that. They brought a second one, cut that one in
half, and third one, shredded it up. We were supposed to be out there three days. The
other ship never got a chance to fire. You don’t need no practice, let’s go home. We were
good. If you don't believe it, ask me. All right. That made that little observers. Oh, here’s
a story. What happened Devon, that’s one you want to look at, but Slapton Sands, S-L-AP-T-O-N, Slapton Sands, The Man Who Never Was, two different stories.
One of the very complicated deceptions, The Man Who Never Was. What did they
call it? It was a fake deal to make the Germans think you’re going to do something, you
know what I mean? They kept half the German Army in the south when we invaded
Normandy.
AS: Slapton Sands was right off the coast a little bit, the main place that we were-
�Arlington Sanford
22
-and they evacuated the whole town. The beach there looked very similar to one of the
beaches we’re going to hit in Normandy, and by the way, there are five beaches in
Normandy, and covered sixty miles. There’s Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno, and Sword.
Sword was the British beach. Omaha was the bad beach that we hit. We also went to
Utah. That wasn’t much at that--Utah, the beach, not the city, town--Utah’s a state, ain’t
it, that’s by Idaho.
But they evacuated it. And there were about seven LSTs, loaded, and they were
using it, live fire--they had gunfire from the town. They weren’t shooting right at you, but
over your head because you don’t want to kill each other, but to simulate it. And they
were lined up on the beach. Now, it’s right, not too far from Cherbourg Harbor in France,
right across the channel. And that was those E-boats, torpedo boats that we would operate
out of there. They were on patrol, about seven of them, and spotted this group and
torpedoed them. And three of them really got--that one really got clobbered, and another
one was towed back to England further down. I forgot the third one. But anyway, the
main part is 749 people were killed, plus the damage and all to these. That’s the stern of
the ship, the LST. But anyway, now these soldiers are loaded, all their combat gear and
rifles, just as if they’re going under the main beach. This is the real practice, loaded
down. You know, there’s about a hundred pounds they’re carrying on their back.
Probably when you was a kid--you remember your little o-ring life preservers you wore
about--I don't even see them for kids anymore, but the Army had them, and they were flat
until you had that little string you’d pull, and that CO2 cartridge that blew up that fast,
when you had to have them.
Well, if they aren’t blowing over the side, and they’re burning and all that stuff,
�Arlington Sanford
23
they were jumping over the side. What happened? They were top-heavy, they flipped
upside down, they drowned. Now what was worrisome, Ike was worried--they happened
to have ten observers who knew pretty much all the battle plans that they had planned for
the invasion of Normandy. So, they was worried that maybe one of the E-boats might
have picked up a survivor, so there was nothing--this was all top secret.
It was classified for forty-five years, too, by the way. Those pictures are classified
for forty-five years. Can you tell me why? Don’t you think the Japs knew what they did?
Gee. Anyway, kind of dumb sometimes. Anyway, so there was no mention, it was all top
secret. There was no mention of it in newspapers, radio, nothing. The British people
didn't even know what was going on. And they were listening to the intercept-communication, to see if there was any hint at all.
After about a week, they felt pretty safe, nothing had happened, and they were
safe to go on with the plan of the invasion. Later, there’s several truck loads of soldiers
who were trucked at night. They were so strict and secret, and so much concern. They
recovered everybody--everybody. And these soldiers come--didn't know what they were
doing, but they had turned out to be burying detail. Somewhere over there in some
woods, they buried them. I don't know if they’ve ever been moved. They probably have
by today, but that was secret for all those years.
Nobody’s supposed to know nothing. That’s what gets me about that, like the Japs
didn't know what they did. I’ll get in a little bit of that for you later. Usually I start at the
beginning with it, and get that out of the way. Where did I leave off now? Oh, Slapton
Sands, I think I pretty much covered the Slapton Sands. It says Devon. Just go on the
web, World War II, Slapton Sands, England, The Man Who Never Was. That’s an
�Arlington Sanford
24
interesting story. If we get time, we’ll tell you about it, a little bit about it. Where am I at
now? Oh, yeah, did I get into Normandy yet? I guess I haven’t. Oh, yeah, because this
was a beach similar to it, very much the same, yeah. All right. D-Day came, sixth of June,
and we--Operation Overlord that was called. And we--I told you there was five beaches,
and we--so Rommel had taken command of those beaches. They really, really put
obstacles. They had these big steel barricades like this, and we couldn’t get onto the
beaches like normal. It tore the bottom of the ships, that was the idea, too.
So, they had what they called the pontoons that we carried on the side, and some
of them would propel with a big outboard motor, some would push with boats and tugs. I
can’t--I had all these durn different pictures of them, don’t know where they’re all at. Oh,
probably over here. You can’t see them where you’re sitting, but anyway, they’re there.
I’ll show you later. I know it’s there somewhere. Well, that’s another story. This is not
my usual setup. That’s all right. But they were the pontoons, a big flat barge is all it is.
They connect one on to the other, and three or four, then whatever they needed
and got on the beach and we’d unload, and they’d drive over the obstacles, so it worked
pretty good. And what else did I do there? June, I know what I did there. Well, we spent
three days on that beach unloading, and on the fourth day, we returned to England, went
up the Thames River--most people call it Thames--toward London .This time, we’re
going up to load--we loaded British troops and equipment. Now can you see that picture
right there? That is what’s on top of the ship. Got a big elevator like aircraft carriers.
You‘d load it--or sometimes a crane, whatever it took, mostly that kind of stuff.
They’re that much underneath. Massive, so if you carried it--there’s stuff on the beaches.
There’s how we lined up on beaches, you see. That’s what I’m talking about. There we
�Arlington Sanford
25
are in the bottom, unloading the tank and the ship--the tank’s right there. Can you see
about the middle, that railroad car hanging on the sling? We carried them on top of the
ship, load them in England.
MM: So they’d be lowered down with a crane?
AS: No, they’re on top. I’m getting ahead of myself, getting ahead of myself. I’ll
get to that later, all right. I forgot where I’m at. I don’t remember anyway.
MM: Returning to England to load the-AS: Yeah, that’s what we did. So anyway, I don’t really need notes now. We
come back down the Thames River and we finally hit the channel. Now Jack, my buddy,
was on the stern of the ship, the fantail--that was his duty station like that, coming down
the Thames River. As soon as we hit the channel, we went back to our normal routine.
Now we’re underway.
I don’t know to this day why. I spent the whole four hours with him sitting on the
fantail, shooting the breeze, talking about his mother and his girlfriend and all the things
we’ve been through, North Africa, Sicily, all this stuff I’ve been telling you, and even
from the first day we went aboard a ship. Anyway, I get carried away here. Okay, we
finally secured from that detail, and this is the thing, to this day, I don’t get it. As we
were--he was going his way, I was going--he turned to me and says, “Hey, if anything
ever happens to me, would you go see my mother?” If that ain’t a premonition.
Well, I think it was the same morning, fifteenth of June. It’s only a short width
across the channel. We hit the beach, Sword, the British beach. It was twenty minutes
after eleven, and I was in the washroom, washing up, getting ready for chow at 11:30.
And you know, probably ten or twelve sinks, like only that far apart, and mirrors like this.
�Arlington Sanford
26
Jack--a little bit further in there, came in, he says, “Can I borrow your binoculars?” He
said, “They’re shelling the beach.” “Sure, Jack, you know where they’re at. I had a pair
of German binoculars I got from a German prisoner in Africa. We never kept our lockers
locked in those days. Anyway, so I thought that was--to this day, it gets me. Anyway,
twenty minutes after eleven, he borrowed my binoculars.
That far there--it wasn’t even as far as that wall, not even that far, half way,
maybe that door. Came back, then he had to go up the ladder, then out on the main deck.
He’s here, I’m right here below him. Closer--well, from here to that door, was the
laundry. All of a sudden, that laundry room came crashing in--caving in. Where I was
standing, the two mirrors, a hole that big appeared between them, and I’m looking out at
the water. I figured it was time to get out of Dodge, and I did. I run topside, just know
when I’m going on my twenty millimeter anti-air--but I knew instinctively that that
wasn’t going to be doing no one no good, for what just hit us?
But I did--as soon as I stepped outside that door, there was Jack laying on the
deck. And I never told his mother but he took a fire ax and hit you right here, split his
head wide open. I talked about gory. Well, I kind of held him and took care of him for a
while, until the corpsman came, and that’s the last I ever saw him. Anyway, I did go to
see his mother, but you know when that was, 1956.
She lived in Peoria, Illinois, I’m in the Navy, can’t afford to go, don’t get the
leave. LSTs don't go up the Peoria River anymore. They do, there’s a river goes up there,
but I didn't know then. I finally got orders to go to Great Lakes to special schools for
engineering. And it wasn’t far from the Great Lakes, so I went to visit her. And it wasn’t
until that, that I knew he lived three days, buried three times, first on the beach, then a
�Arlington Sanford
27
better place, and finally, in a permanent one
AS: Well, whatever, you know, you go on--look up American overseas military
cemeteries, and you get--they’re well-maintained. The Normandy one-MM: I’ve been to the American cemetery in Normandy.
AS: Which one?
MM: At Omaha Beach.
AS: Have you? You know the channel’s right there, that’s where Jack and some
of my other buddies are buried right there.
MM: It was a very powerful place.
AS: Yeah, and some of them are buried in England. Anyway, where was I? I
forgot. And I still never got over it, I don’t know why. Well, what happened, they had
five big German gun mounts, you know, they have about eight-inch guns, and they hadn’t
been knocked out. They knocked us out. We got hit the first, the worst, the last, and other
ships got hit. One ship got hit before we got hit six times. That was the beach where we
were. That’s in there. Right above that, the ammunition locker, that’s where we got
clobbered in the ammunition locker, the gyro room, the gyro controlled the compass and
all for bearings. The ward rooms, where they hit like this, and the laundry room was here,
that all came caving in. After the second hit though, we were ordered to abandon ship and
we had to swim ashore, and we get up on the beaches, and the line of the British there, we
were running up the beach and getting out of the way of the big guns. The British said,
“Watch it, there’s a mine field.” Look at them ships getting hit. You know, I forgot what
beach we were on, we were on so many beaches, but you know, you’ve seen movies
where the soldiers go into a building. They slam it open, they’re--things like that. Sailors,
�Arlington Sanford
28
they go in and see that--“Hey, a souvenir.”
Like I told you about the kids with the booby-traps. General called back to the
ship, “Get your GD sailors aboard ship. I got enough trouble with the Germans.” We did
some--where we just abandoned the cotton picking ship, went over the sand dune, a
bunch of us there. What did we find? Two miniature tanks that stood about four feet long,
three feet wide, and stood about that far off the ground, a couple of feet off the ground.
Looked like a real tank, except didn't have a gun and turret, but there was wires hanging.
And those electricians start touching wires.
Well, they started running. There are two of them, so they’re touching wires, and
they could control them. And they start playing chicken, something to do. Later, we
found out when we got back on board ship, you know what they were? They were radiocontrolled, full of high explosives. They were used on the beach to run into the side of the
ship to blow the ship up. And here they’re playing chicken with them. That’s why the
General didn't like-MM: Well, the right people didn't get blown up.
AS: I’m telling you, I don’t know--I’ve seen some funny close calls that I just
don’t know why I’m here. I ain’t figured that out yet. Only the good die young, so I’m
here for a long time. When I worked for Air Force security, after I retired from the Navy
in April of sixty-two, I retired and I worked with the Air Force ten years. This is getting a
little bit off, but that’s what the--we had a four-day vacation in Germany, and that year I
spent in Germany, supposedly ended up being six years. It was spy business kind of stuff,
and I had bases all the way from Scotland to Pakistan, I had fourteen big bases I’d go to.
My wife said, “What do you want to do?’ I said, “I’d like to go to Normandy.”
�Arlington Sanford
29
So, we packed up and that’s when De Gaulle was President and he didn't like--he
wanted to make French the national language of worldwide, and wouldn’t let--they
wouldn’t speak English. I got in Paris, heading to Normandy, and all the road signs were
just--well, wasn’t that big, and wasn’t that wide, about that wide. Got to Paris and sat in
the Notre Dame Cathedral parking lot, four times I circled around, trying to find my way
out of Paris. Nobody would talk--so I sat there for a while. I said, “You know Fran, (my
wife)” I says, "If I was living in this joint, I wouldn’t be living in Paris. I’d be living out
in the boondocks.”
Like going into the City of Charleston here, you see the traffic coming this way,
so I looked. “Oh, look at all the traffic, they must be coming from the boondocks, going
to work.” So, I took the line of least resistance. I went the other way. Bigger than heck, I
come to a crossroad with a sign, the way I wanted to go. Finally made it out of Paris, but
you know what, coming back, I bypassed Paris. I was sure I wasn’t going through Paris
again. I didn't like France anyway. I didn't. The people were all right, but De Gaulle-anyway, where was I at? How did I get into that? All right. Am I still in Sword Beach?
MM: Yeah, sure.
AS: I guess I was. Well, anyway, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, behind the sand dune. Well,
finally, after four hours, they quit shelling. In the meantime, we got hit a few more times,
and the ironic part about we were supposed to be a hospital ship. We had extra doctors
and corpsmen aboard the ship next to us, the LST 266, they did also. When we got hit,
they sent corpsmen over. We didn't--we abandoned ship, but the doctors were still aboard
operating on people.
And had it not been for some of them, we’d have lost more. And the only dead
�Arlington Sanford
30
and wounded we carried back was our own. Then we had to follow another ship back
because our gyro system was out. We couldn’t navigate, but that was all right. We made
it back. We finally got back to England and went into dry dock, and got repaired and all
that. Then after that, a couple weeks later, we got all shipshape again, and then what did
we start doing? All right. Yeah, pretty good weeks. The railroad car that I was talking
about a while ago. Now the tank deck is about thirty feet wide.
They laid three sets of railroad tracks, welded them to the deck. These are armytype, small stuff, not like the main highway here. We carried fourteen of the large
railroad cars and twenty-one of the small, that was one of the small ones there. And every
time we carried them, loaded with ammo. And we unloaded up in Cherbourg Harbor. We
finally was able to get into the--and they were still dredging. You see, right in the bottom
here, that like a ramp right there, that’s where the ship come in, lower our ramp, the
railroad was here and they had a connector, and the choo-choo train come down, up to the
train and pull it out.
That’s the way they did it, and then head right to the front. I lost my train of
thought again. My train gets off--derailed like that thing. We spent sixty-nine trips like
that, across the channel. Here, that door, was a little old dredge picking up stuff and
dumping it. Picked up a mine, boom, the dredge sunk. That’s fun, I tell you. What
happened? One night, we’re sitting there at anchor. We’re ready to go back to England,
unloaded to get ready to--and we made a lot of trips back and forth across the harbor, no
escort or nothing, sometimes alone. Finally, we were sitting out there at anchor and,
“Bridge, we’re taking on water.” “What?” “Taking on water, flooding.”
The tide went out, sunken ship, uncharted. We didn't know about it, sat on top of
�Arlington Sanford
31
it, and all that broken metal punched through the bottom of our hull. From the deck I’m
on, the main, to the shaft alley--the shaft alley was where the propeller’s at, was the
lowest part of the ship. Water tanks were down there, that’s part of my job. I start--forty
feet down--I started down, I got about six feet down, I see somebody coming up, so I got
out of the way. That wasn’t somebody coming up, it was me going down, reflection in
the water. Luckily, though, the hatch, like it was supposed to--was secured.
Anyway, we didn't know what the heck was happening, so we finally just run it
up on the beach. The tide went out, all the water drained out. We made temporary repairs
and went back to England and got fixed up. What’s the next dastardly deed happened
there? Oh, now there’s another trip, we’re heading back. Got outside the harbor, three of
us this time.
We got outside the harbor just a little bit, and boy, we got a signal from an escort
vessel out there, which we had been doing no escorts at all going back. The war was over.
I never seen three LSTs turn around so fast, zoom, back into the harbor--E-boats. So from
then on, we got escorts. What else could happen? During our reunions, one of their
officers told him he was the one piloting the ship that night and dark, you know, going
back to England, run over three channel buoys. You don’t think that--it’s quiet you know,
and routine noises--boom, and we thought we hit a mine. Mr. Chambliss, I told him about
that. That wasn’t nice. We had some good times, too. He laughed about it, too.
MM: That’s good.
AS: Where was I now? I’m getting close to the end I think--close, I guess.
MM: It is up to you.
AS: Are you getting tired of listening to me?
�Arlington Sanford
32
MM: No, we still have thirty-six minutes of time, if you’d like, we can keep
recording.
AS: Well, now, after that, after sixty-nine trips of that, then we started going up
the Seine River towards Paris. We didn't go all the way to Paris, up to Le Havre, we went
and our Skipper was transferred to become the commander of the Port of Le Havre, then
we got a new Skipper. One time--you know, the Seine River was--the area we went was
kind of high. It looked down on a lot of the town. It was like a big levy, if you broke the
levy, the town would get flooded. One time, we were going up there, we had a tidal wave
come up the river, so we had that anchor at the bow, backing down to the stern, backing
down full speed, while the tidal wave came by. Who would expect a tidal wave in a
cotton picking river? How do I get involved with stuff like that? I don’t know.
MM: Just good luck.
AS: But anyway, I think that’s all the notes I got there. But I’ll tell you a couple
other things maybe. That--see the Battle Ship Arizona sitting there. That got hit with a
bomb, right in the ammo--well, where the gun powder and all that stuff--the magazine’s
what they call that. It split that ship in half like this--like that, going down--1180 people
are still entombed in that thing, marines and sailors. I was at the school last week talking
to the ROTC people, and they said, “What made the ship sink so fast?” A big bomb,
that’s why, you blow it in half, it sinks fast.
But you know what, what I was really going to say, the Admiral Nimitz was at
some kind of a shindig in the States, and his aides said he had a phone call. He went to
answer it, it was President Roosevelt, said, “You are now in command of the Pacific
fleet.” And a couple days later, he was in Hawaii, and the first thing he did, he got one of
�Arlington Sanford
33
the little motor launches, and toured the harbor. Our morale, of course, then, at the
beginning, was very, very low, bad all over. What else could happen? In his numbers, and
you read some of that, he said, “Well,” when he came back to shore, the coxswain of the
boat, the guy who steered the boat, he said, “What do you think all the damage is at?”
The Admiral says, “Well, the Japs made three big mistakes, crucial mistakes.
One, right over the hill, the main storage, fuel storage tanks for the whole Pacific fleet are
there. They didn't hit it. The dry docks, they didn't knock out. And Sunday, the weekend,
ninety percent of the crews were ashore on liberty.” He said, “Had they lured the Pacific
fleet out,” see they had seven aircraft carriers, the Japs had in this attack, four hundred
and some planes, the bombers, and torpedo planes and all that kind of stuff. So, had they
lured the ship to sea, and that much fire power--our carriers, luckily, were not in port at
the time.
That was the biggest target they wanted, but the Japs decided to go anyway. That
was the savior in point for us there. They would have probably sunk the fleet and had-rather than losing 3,800, we would have probably lost 38,000. But now--and then the
ships are down in the middle of the Pacific, but in the harbor, there’s shallow water. They
capsized and they sunk, they sat right on bottom, so within four months, they had
refloated a bunch of them, and had put them back. I know some of them took part with us
in Normandy. See that thing right there?
MM: This one right here?
AS: That’s a dry dock. See the ship behind, standing upright? The one in front is
the Destroyer Shaw that got pretty damaged, but they didn't--see, the shallow water, they
could do it. They could salvage the ships pretty good. And had they knocked out the dry
�Arlington Sanford
34
docks, they would have had to tow the ships all the way back to the States, and it would
take three to four months to do that. Whereas, because they didn't destroy the dry docks,
they had the facilities to do it and everything was done in a big hurry. I recently got this,
the Doolittle Raiders (points to photograph).
MM: Tell me a little bit more about that.
MM: (Reading from commemorative excerpt) The Doolittle Raiders. After the
surprise Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor of December 7th, 1941, President Franklin D.
Roosevelt asked America’s top military leaders to figure out a way to strike back at
Japan’s homeland as quickly as possible. A Navy task force led by Lieutenant Colonel
James H. Jimmy Doolittle would take sixteen B-25s to a point about 450 miles off of
Japan, where they would be launched from a carrier, the USS Hornet, to attack military
targets in five major Japanese cities, including Tokyo, the capital.
Jimmy Doolittle decided the B-25 crews would consist of five men, pilot, copilot,
navigator, bombardier and engineer gunner. In the early morning hours of April 18th,
1942, Admiral Halsey promptly flashed a message to the Hornet. “Launched planes to
Colonel Doolittle and gallant command, good luck and God bless.” All planes but one
found their respective targets, but not one plane returned. The crews ran out of fuel. Some
ditched planes, others were captured as prisoners, some were seriously injured, others
died. Sixty-four of Doolittle’s raiders arrived safely in Chunking, China, with the aid of
Chinese peasants, many who later paid with their lives. Jimmy Doolittle’s famous air raid
against Japan marked the beginning of the turnaround towards victory for America and
her allies in World War II. This photo was taken on April 10, 1942 on the USS Hornet
prior to mission, and shows Jimmy Doolittle to the left front of the group, and Captain
�Arlington Sanford
35
Mitscher to his right, along with Jimmy’s famous Doolittle Raider behind him with the
B-25. So, Jimmy Doolittle is the one on the left there. This very special fighter was
individually autographed by three surviving, very brave and gallant Doolittle Raiders.
AS: When I worked at Air Force Security Service in Europe, our Commander of
the Security area over there in Germany, when he was a Lieutenant, he was one of the
Doolittle Raiders, Colonel Macia, M-A-C-I-A. I guess most of them are gone now. And I
recently read something in a--oh, for sale items in the paper. That was there and I bought
it from the guy. I’ll keep that.
MM: That’s great.
AS: The Battle of Midway--what do you always say, were we better or luckier?
Susan (Chief Sanford’s Daughter): Were we just lucky, or were we good? That
was in the movie.
AS: We were good. Anyway, the Battle of Midway was a turning point about-only six months after Pearl Harbor, did a lot in six months. And the Japs, if they had
control of Midway, they’d have us controlled in all the Pacific, and they had a good shot
at the US and everything else, you know. Before I get that--just so I won’t forget. Did
you know we were bombed one time in the United States by a Jap plane, out in the
Pacific?
MM: Really.
AS: Dropped a bomb--I think it was an incendiary or something, except it
dropped in the woods, sure did. I think it was shelling a long time from the Japs.
MM: Did they just--they missed their target, or-AS: Well, I’m talking like near San Francisco, something like that, on the
�Arlington Sanford
36
mainland, the one time. But Midway, out of the seven carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor,
there were only four. We had three. This big massive attack was heading towards
Midway, to capture. They were sure going to get it. The people--intercept command,
where the codes and all that kind of--try to break the codes, they had finally, by chance,
intercepted a Japanese code.
They had then just one word, AZ. The Japs, we were flying close to AZ, I think it
was, and our intercept didn't know what it was, AZ. But then one of the intercept guys
remembered something about it. And he thought--had thought about it, thought it might
be Midway, because where else, of all the places that they could be something like that.
So, he sent a--had the--they sent a fake message to Midway. The message was that
something had happened to their saltwater treatment, which converted saltwater to fresh
water, and sent it in plain language, so there was no chance the Japs or anybody else
could mistake it. And bigger than heck, the Japs fell for it. They radioed back that AZ
was having trouble with its evaporators.
They knew then that it was Midway. We only had three carriers. The Japs had that
massive armada, four carriers. We were outnumbered, outgunned, and out everything,
and so [Raymond A.] Spruance, who was a junior in line for advancement--I think it was
Nimitz, somebody--Nimitz was the head of the Navy. They point at him over others
because he’s so good at keeping his cruisers at the time, where they’re supposed to be,
and they made him commander of that particular carrier.
Anyway, they surprised--the Japs surprised, I guess, we surprised them, and sank
all four of those Japanese carriers, four of the originals that hit Pearl Harbor six months
before. We lost the Yorktown there. That’s where the original Yorktown went down.
�Arlington Sanford
37
That was a crucial main turning point of the war right there. Yeah, we were better, Susan.
Yeah, sure was. Well, I don't know what other stories I could tell you now.
MM: That actually sounds like a great place to stop. I like that.
AS: That will keep you busy for a while, trying to figure it out.
MM: Yeah, I’ll just go ahead and pause. May I? Okay, great. All right.
AS: We’re having to go back through Sword Beach, when the ship got hit there. I
told you about the wardrobe come crashing in, and the laundry room, and our
ammunition locker got knocked out, and the fuel tank and the other things like that. Well,
the officers’ wardrobe was very similar to this, a little--not as high and about--a little
shorter than this. Out in the hallway, the passageway, about this wide, and then the galley
was right here, just like you’re going through a cafeteria, when you slide your trays
along, and that’s where you picked up.
Well, there’s a doorway right here, and the officers--mess attendant right here,
would get the food from here and bring it in here. And then there was a little--like you go
to the drive-in restaurant window, you know, about that big of window. He would serve it
out there, then the mess cooks inside would set the tables. Well, that shell took out the
bulkhead, like this. That picture where that guy is, is part of the hull right there, that part
of the hull, that’s in England where they’re looking over the damage. There’s the
cemetery where my buddy’s buried.
Getting out of line here a little bit. That’s my buddy, Jack. There it is, there’s
some more of the damage here. There’s part of it. That’s the only picture I’ve got in
uniform. My housed burned down, I lost everything. Well, I told you about Jack. The gun
crew, number three gun mount--one of my--up there, three guys got killed in that. And
�38
Arlington Sanford
some others, I don’t remember all of them.
When that shell came through-- I told you about the hole in the laundry room, but
this little window, about that size, it sheared the top of that off. And we didn't know about
that till we came back aboard the ship to start cleaning up. The mess cook in there, it
decapitated him. You know where they found his head, in the refrigerator. They figured
that he’d been in the refrigerator, and it slammed the door, like that. Not nice, huh?
MM: No, it’s more just kind of shocking, really, than gory.
AS: There’s other--I tend to forget some of the stuff like that.
MM: Well, you know, it’s not necessarily what you want to remember.
AS: Not really.
MM: So, I don’t blame you.
AS: I’d rather do the buzz bomb and the crypt than that.
MM: I won’t press you for any more.
AS: No, that’s enough anyway. But those things--cut off the thing. Those things
happened.
End of recording.
Verified: February 2013
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Melanie Murray
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arlington Sanford
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 40 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Arlington Sanford, interviewed by Melanie Murray, 23 March, 2012
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Landing craft
Operation Overlord
Description
An account of the resource
Arlington Sanford was born on December 21, 1923, in Danbury, Connecticut. He joined the Navy shortly after graduating from high school. After boot camp in Newport, Rhode Island, he went to diesel school in South Richmond, Virginia, and graduated as a Fireman First Class. He was then assigned to landing ship tank (LST-307) in Boston, Massachusetts. He shipped out of New York on St. Patrick's Day in 1943 and took part in the Sicilian Occupation, the Salerno Landings, and the Normandy Invasion. Sanford describes his close relationship with Jack Junior Faughn, Boatswain's Mate Second Class from Peoria, Illinois: We were closer than brothers. We were inseparable; everywhere we went together, all through the war and did the same thing. LST-307 was struck hard by German guns during the Normandy invasion off Sword Beach. Upon impact Sanford sped to the main deck where he found Faughn's badly injured body. I kind of held him and took care of him for a while, until the corpsman came, Sanford recalled. That's the last I ever saw him.
<br />In the spring of 2012, Citadel graduate students in Dr. Lauren Rule Maxwell’s Advanced Composition class conducted oral history interviews with a diverse group of area veterans regarding their military experiences during World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. In addition to conducting interviews, the students incorporated the veterans’ stories into a range of writing exercises, including feature articles, which appear online. In organizing the project, Maxwell teamed up with Fred Lesinski of the Ralph H. Johnson VA Medical Center in Charleston. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum and also will be housed in the Library of Congress Veterans History Project. By capturing these histories, the interviews aim to do justice to the veterans’ stories while paying homage to their legacy and the principled leadership they inspire.Interview transcriptions are intended to reflect the words and sounds of the audio recordings as closely as possible. Even the best transcriptions, however, are imperfect representations of the recordings. For a full discussion of The Citadel Oral History Program's transcription guidelines, consult the program's Web site.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23140" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
Lowcountry Veterans' Oral Histories
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-03-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/134
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/55ef45ef287d743abc5b546b932379f2.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=SA8TBlmRdyta4V9GBHhxLqVcxyC1KynO3Jx%7EYoKLz%7EaKVdXw3SFKxuVZmfT9oH%7E-6RysjZNuubciwrC54cg-HfKLXj0nkSDLQQW-orsLOHcT6W9CLuJm30vOyvxnU-7QAVzr7djo%7E35%7ECmPZ%7EqrDmiVCCn85imTLWgJThwLUUZPwVwslK3Mmif8zW-mxG9xszysAz6v9u01FUb-obXMEz1W4rvss0BTs%7EHHTSzotlWgTcNOe8xzc9jldtHKJbkAsg5VuvSj6H9nTAjbNBNOkNRDRykYRQ7DSSeuwgU5dUbM7tMmUhFAa-40L5m5foCbib5erZSGQCpzGLF9jUHN8dw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
c115d273c5e3f78fbf93af0a5e05479b
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – ARTHUR M. SWANSON
Interviewee: ARTHUR M. SWANSON
Interviewer: Dr. Jack Bass
Interview Date: October 14, 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Length: 34 minutes and 56 seconds
Dr. Jack Bass: Mr. Swanson, how did you make the decision to go to The Citadel?
Mr. Arthur M. Swanson: I didn't, my father made the decision.
JB: Was he a Citadel graduate?
AS: No. He had a friend of a friend or relative or something and he recommended
it. I suppose I was giving him some trouble; so he suggested I go to The Citadel. In those
days, you did what your father said to do. I have four sons. They all laughed at me when I
told them I wanted them to go to The Citadel, but one, graduated from there. He had
number five for a draft number so it was either The Citadel or Vietnam and he chose The
Citadel.
JB: So you enrolled in what year?
AS: 1941.
JB: So how long after you enrolled comes Pearl Harbor?
AS: Not long. I remember it was a Sunday morning and I remember it very
vividly; laying in the bunk and that's when it all started.
JB: How did you first learn about it?
AS: Right there in my room.
�Arthur M. Swanson
2
JB: Listening to the radio?
AS: Yes.
JB: Can you recall, what were your thoughts or feelings at that time?
AS: Well, I think it was pretty much assumed that we would go to war eventually.
That was the atmosphere there at The Citadel, the environment--I guess the newspapers
and magazines and whatever, the radio. Hitler was on the march, you know, and we were
giving aide to the Brits at the time.
JB: Right. Your major was what?
AS: English.
JB: English, from the beginning.
AS: Yes.
JB: When did you actually go on active duty?
AS: In July, 1943.
JB: So you had finished two years.
AS: Two years, right.
JB: Then where did you go? Tell me what happens next. You were sworn in
where?
AS: Fort Devins, Massachusetts. I was sent to Fort Eustis in the Anti-aircraft. I
should have stayed there but I didn't. I wanted to be a pilot so I took the examinations and
so on. I went to Syracuse University, went to Miami. They had a very elaborate screening
process, psychological and physical and so on. I ended up at Santa Ana, a big Air Force
base out there and they had three classifications: a pilot, a navigator and a bombardier. I
was classified a navigator. [Laughter] Well, at that time the losses were so great--you've
�Arthur M. Swanson
3
probably run into this with other veterans--in Europe, that the Army took all men who
had been in the ground forces before, took them into the infantry. I ended up in Northern
California from the comforts of the Air Force to the rigors of the infantry in the Eighty
Ninth Division.
JB: How did that transfer occur?
AS: It occurred. [Laughter]
JB: They just--.
AS: All of us, oh sure.
JB: The whole group?
AS: And this applied to a great many--you've read Randy Bradham's book?
JB: I have not.
AS: He was a classmate of mine. The same thing happened to these people that
were in ASTP or programs like that.
JB: ASTP would be? I just wondered what the initials stand for.
AS: Well, they sent you to school; the government sent you to school in various
disciplines to prepare you for, I guess OCS; but the rationale was to keep you in school
for at least a period of time and train you as mathematicians or physicists or historians or
whatever. The losses in Europe were so great at that time that they pulled them out, too.
So, I ended up in a pup tent at Hunter Liggett up in Northern California. The Eighty
Ninth Division was the so-called "Light Division." It was an experimental division.
JB: Tell me when that occurred.
�Arthur M. Swanson
4
AS: 1944, I guess. They cleaned out that division; sent all the enlisted, the lower
ranks, to Europe as replacements. They kept the NCOs and the Officers more or less
intact.
JB: Now, did you get a commission by them?
AS: No. No, no. We're all in this together. So I had an opportunity to go to OCS
but they were recruiting Platoon Commanders for the Far East; I was with a bunch of
men that I had been with before in The Citadel and some were Air Force so I stayed in
the Eighty Ninth Division.
JB: Did you then go through infantry training?
AS: Yes, out there. Then we went--.
JB: That was in California?
AS: That's right, Hunter Liggett, a great big--.
JB: What is that L-i-g-g-e-t-t?
AS: Hunter Liggett, yes. Camp Roberts is a huge reservation. It didn't agree with
me very much physically. I had--it's beautiful country--I had sinus problems. It's that part
of California where it got, maybe ninety degrees in the day but went freezing at night so
the swings in temperature bothered me. Anyhow, we went from there to Camp Buckner,
North Carolina for division exercises and so on. In December we embarked for Europe,
supposedly to go to England. I was on the USS Uruguay with five thousand men. It took
us three weeks to get over [Laughter] there in the winter time. Because they were in a
hurry, we embarked at Le Havre. They couldn't get this ship in there; it was a twenty five
thousand ton ship. The harbor was so backed up that they took us off in gliders. You
know, to assemble a division of eighteen thousand men is really a task. But we were
�Arthur M. Swanson
5
finally assembled, you know, to feed us. It was a miserable winter. We finally went into
action, I think, in Luxembourg and went across Europe and ended up in Zwickau.
JB: How do you spell that?
AS: Z-w-i-c-k-a-u. Zwickau. I got the division; history such as it is.
JB: Is that in Germany?
AS: Yes. We stopped there.
JB: When did you arrive in Europe?
AS: In 1944, late ‘44.
JB: So this was just sort of at the beginning of The Battle of the Bulge?
AS: It was the fringes of it, you know; it was essentially over. But, the losses in
the Huertgen Forest and the Bulge and so on, were enormous. That's what caused us to go
into Le Havre rather than go to England for a period of training and so on. We were on
the go constantly. It was sporadic, the fighting that we were involved in. There wasn't any
entrenched--we had people sniping at us. We crossed the Meuse. We had a terrible time
crossing the Rhine, not my regiment but another regiment there. They took some terrible
losses. I didn’t realize the Rhine ran so swiftly and the damn fools put these men in little
boats with an oar or someone from the Midwest who had never seen a boat before
[Laughter] much less an oar. My regiment, the Three Hundred Fifty Fifth went across the
Rhine on a truck at Boppard.
JB: Spell Boppard for me.
AS: B-o-p-p-a-r-d. We had rest periods. I remember we spent a rest period at
Rudesheim on the Rhine, which is a tourist place--beautiful place. Anyhow, we went
�Arthur M. Swanson
6
across as I told you, we ended up at Zwickau. We stopped at that time. You remember the
bombing of Dresden?
JB: Right.
AS: The Russians were coming and we didn't realize it. The Germans said, "This
is going to be Russian territory." We said they were crazy but they were right. They knew
about Yalta, the settlement at Yalta, before we did. Anyhow, we let thousands and
thousands of German civilians and soldiers come through our lines, running from the
Russians and I guess to get something to eat. When the war was over--well, before the
war was over, I was the first man in my company--at that time, they gave passes when
you were in action--they gave passes to Paris. When I was in Paris on that leave, the war
was over. I went back to my unit and as a division we went to Havre; I think it was Camp
Lucky Strike, where the division was broken up. Those men--they had a point system
then--those men that had so many points could go home immediately. Those with less
points would go on the Army of Occupation. Well, I had, not quite enough to go home
but I had more than the Army of Occupation. So I went to school at American University,
set up and it was really well done in Shrivenham, England.
JB: What's the name of the town?
AS: Shrivenham. They call it the American University, but it was staffed by
American professors and so on. It was very well attended. They set up several of those
schools. They had so many men and so much shipping, they couldn't get them all home at
once.
JB: Right.
�Arthur M. Swanson
7
AS: And this was the reason--it was a good reason; and they gave us all passes;
you know, subsidized tours. I got home I think in February, 1946. I didn't do anything; I
told my mother I was being rehabilitated. I played golf and so on. I went down to The
Citadel to see Colonel Prouty--have you ever heard of Colonel Prouty?
JB: I think I have.
AS: He's a tough guy.
JB: He was like the top academic administrator?
AS: Registrar, yeah. He had the last word on any credits from other schools. I
said, "Listen, I want credits for--". "Nah. No way." Well, we went back and forth and he
finally--I did get credit for some of my courses. I only had a year to go to finish The
Citadel, which I did. And that's about it. I had the Combat Infantry Badge and I had the
Bronze Star and three Battle Stars but that was about the limit of my achievement.
JB: What was the episode that got the Bronze Star?
AS: Oh, several. I had a man when we were going into Zwickau; a big city, a
relatively big city--who was hit, some kid or woman shot a tank, a Sherman tank with a
rifle that ricocheted off the tank and hit my friend. I was about that far away
[Demonstrating]. We went into the city further--.
JB: So you were about an arm's length away.
AS: That's all. We went into the city further and there was a river, well more of a
creek; a short bridge on the other side. I happened to see a guy with a Panzerfaust; you
know that was the German rocket-propelled, you know, it would shoot a tank. It was for-.
JB: Like an early bazooka?
�Arthur M. Swanson
8
AS: Well, it was better than a bazooka. We had bazookas. I never saw a bazooka
fired in my experience. You had to get too close. Anyhow, I saw this guy and fired at him
and down below there was a tank shooting. We and a couple of other guys ran across that
bridge up to where I saw the man. And, there he was. He had--you know the Germans
had to carry, still carry, a can about that big [Demonstrating] with their gas mask in it and
they were required to--of course, we had gas masks but we emptied it out and carried it as
a little handbag [Laughter]. He had bullets through that canister and through his uniform
but he wasn't hit; [Laughter] he was just laying there shivering. That was because of the
four or five of us that ran across that bridge. Wasn't any big deal.
JB: It must have meant a little bit.
AS: Well--.
JB: Were you getting shot at while any of this was going on?
AS: I don't think so. You see, you're in a hurry [Laughter] to get across that
bridge. One thing that occurred you know, they were blowing up bridges and it could
have been blown up; but, we got across all right. But then we stopped. That was the end
of any action. Shortly after that--well, we stayed there because I went on my leave. We
went by truck to Verviers in Belgium and then took the train from there to Paris; this is
on my leave. Going through that flat country, you know where the Huertgen, that awful
campaign--I saw all these burned out tanks and I began counting them and I just lost
count. There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them; American, as well as
German tanks. It was on that flat country where they could open fire. But that's about it.
That was my prestigious career in the United States Army.
JB: What impact did that have on you subsequently?
�Arthur M. Swanson
9
AS: Well, I guess it did. You know, five years in a uniform will impact you. I had
a curious experience. You know you read about this Post Traumatic--and I never had any
problem with that but, I got out of the Army, I think, in January or February; the war was
over as you know in May. I went down to Philadelphia to visit an aunt of mine that I was
very close to. I was talking to her in her kitchen with my cousin and a siren--maybe it
was the police, ambulance, fire engine, I don't know what it was--went off and I flopped
down on the floor. [Laughter] Embarrassing. But it hit something somewhere. I never had
any experience before that or after that in that long lapse of time; it was very strange.
This happened to a lot of men, I suppose, but I didn't suffer any problems with that.
Being in the army, I think about the army; not in derogatory terms all the time but that
experience is with me and I guess with all veterans it's with us until we die. Not a fear or
disgust or--you recall good incident as well as bad for some reason.
JB: You actually graduated when?
AS: 1948. What happened--I had a year to go, but then I had an opportunity to go
to Europe. I had a strong girlfriend here in Charleston, but I had some money saved up
from the army and I had a free trip. We took a coal ship out of Pensacola to L'orient.
Remember L'orient? That's where those submarine pens--.
JB: Oh. Can you spell that for me? L'orient?
AS: L-'-o-r-i-e-n-t.
JB: Oh, okay.
AS: L'orient and St. Messier; those are the towns that Randy Bradham--anyhow,
the only thing much left were those submarine pens which were intact but the town was
flat. I spent three months and went to Paris and went to Italy. This was in 1947 when
�Arthur M. Swanson
10
things were really bad. But, cigarettes and the dollar went a long way those days. I was
married in November, 1948 so this November I will have been married sixty years. I
married a girl from Charleston. She's in a nursing home because she had a stroke about
six months ago. That's about it.
JB: So what did you do after graduation?
AS: I worked for a steamship company.
JB: Which one?
AS: Sewanee, a fellow named Lovett from Jacksonville who had other interests.
Right after the war, he bought six liberty ships and I don't know how many LSTs. You
know there was a great shipping shortage there for a while. Then I worked in New York
for that company. We first lived in Jacksonville, then New York. We actually lived in
New Jersey, but my office was in New York on Broad Street. With the passage of time
and the Europeans and so on, he didn't dismantle the company but it was inevitable. I
accepted a job in Mobile, Alabama, but we came back here; this is Alice's, my wife,
home on Tradd Street. We stayed on Tradd Street and I was walking down Broad Street
and John Welch, who was married to a cousin of my wife's, asked me if I wanted a job in
a bank. You know jobs in the bank weren't--but I asked Alice, "Do you want to stay
here?" "Let's stay here." So that started my career at the bank and I worked in the bank,
the First National Bank of South Carolina. We merged in 1984. At the time, I was vice
chairman and we merged with the South Carolina National Bank in 1984. I retired as
president of the South Carolina National Bank in 1985. I was sixty three years old and it
was an attractive retirement package. It wasn’t a golden parachute by the way. [Laughter]
Then, I didn't do anything until 1990 and I had a group of other people start up the Bank
�Arthur M. Swanson
11
of Charleston. We sold that out in 19 [AS left date incomplete]. I was Chairman of it and
CEO for a while but then my son succeeded me. We merged with the, sold out to the
Anchor Bank some years later. I haven't done anything since. I have an office; part of my
retirement, I have an office. You know the old C & S building?
JB: Yes.
AS: My son works--he ended up with the South Carolina Bank & Trust Company
and I have an office there; and a computer and so on. I go in two or three times a week.
That's it. I've been very fortunate.
JB: I once read actually, many years ago, that more CEOs had English degrees
than any other degree. It's not totally related to this but it's an interesting question I think
based on your experience: Did you feel helped or hindered by having a degree in
English?
AS: Oh, very much helped; very, very much throughout my career. It's different
now. It's all computers and emails and so on but the written word was very important in
those days. That's how you communicated--important.
JB: Right.
AS: It was very helpful to me in my career.
JB: Just to be able to write--.
AS: Intelligible, short. [Laughter]
JB: With clarity.
AS: Exactly. Exactly.
JB: And punctuation that is correct so the meaning is what you want it to mean.
�Arthur M. Swanson
12
AS: Exactly. Exactly. I'm from Connecticut. Being from The Citadel, it really
helped me in my career, too; not being unlike three or four men on our Board who went
to The Citadel. You see that at any big boards. I was Chairman of the Commission on
Higher Education for a period when we lived in Columbia. We lived in Columbia, by the
way, for sixteen, seventeen years and came back here when I retired. It gave you identity,
though. When I would call on banks all over the state they'd hear my accent and I always
said I had no accent, everybody else did. My accent was pure. [Laughter] But they would
say, "Where did you say you were from?" It helped--It gave you an identity--being a
Citadel graduate in the state.
JB: Getting back to my first question on how you came here--you said your father
made your decision.
AS: Yes.
JB: What was his connection to The Citadel?
AS: It wasn't a direct connection; it was through a friend whose son went to The
Citadel.
JB: Okay.
AS: The war was coming on and I wasn't doing anything. Those days for a young
person were--I had been two years--I wasn't exactly enthusiastic climbing that gangplank
either when I went to Europe. I had had enough history and so on to know that the
Russians weren't exactly the nicest people [Laughter] in the world. You know that was a
time of all those purges. It was all over the newspapers and it was common knowledge.
Of course, you didn't--how old are you?
JB: I'm seventy four.
�Arthur M. Swanson
13
AS: Yeah, well you don't remember those days. Our whole generation was--I
suppose we all felt that the war was inevitable. My son that went to The Citadel, he's fifty
four, something like that. They were going to Canada. Remember all those guys were
going to Canada? I had to drag him to get registered for the draft. [Laughter] Then, the
first semester, he disappeared. He hit the road but he surfaced and came back and
graduated. In fact, I gave him his diploma. It was a very nice ceremony.
JB: What questions have I not asked you?
AS: You've pretty much covered it.
JB: Any thoughts coming up? Sometimes I find people will pause a minute or so
and suddenly some memory pops up.
AS: My class at The Citadel included a great many Charleston men, which helped
me in my career at the bank. As I grew older and they grew older their situations were
more responsible and so on. That helped me very much in my career. I don't know that
I've missed anything. I don't know that I could add much. I have four sons. I have ten
grandchildren: eight girls and two boys. I play golf two or three times a week, my back
permitting. We used to have about fourteen of us; now it's down to three. Those that
aren't dead have Alzheimer's and so on.
END OF INTERVIEW
Tammy Davis, November 28, 2008
SDK, December 4, 2008; March 19, 2009
JB, March 26, 2009
�Arthur M. Swanson
KG, July 29, 2009
14
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jack Bass
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arthur M. Swanson
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
35 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Arthur M. Swanson, interviewed by Jack Bass, 14 October, 2008
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
World War, 1939-1945--Regimental histories--355th Infantry
Bankers--United States
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Swanson entered The Citadel in 1941 at the urging of his father whose friend had assured him it was a school that would instill discipline. After two years pursuing an English degree, he went on active duty in July 1943. Assigned to an anti-aircraft unit, he applied for pilot training but was selected to become a navigator. Before he could complete the course, he was reassigned to an infantry unit because of a shortage of young officers. He recalls this abrupt change of plans. “I ended up in Northern California from the comforts of the Air Force to the rigors of the infantry in the Eighty Ninth Division.” In December 1944, he embarked for Europe, landed at Le Havre, and entered the fighting in Luxembourg, moving from there into Germany. He received the Combat Infantry Badge and the Bronze Star for his efforts in Germany with his regiment—the 355th Infantry. He returned from the war in 1946, but visited Europe again before graduating from The Citadel in 1948. Shortly after graduation he began his accidental career in banking, eventually retiring as President of the South Carolina National Bank in 1985. He continues to hold an office at the South Carolina Bank and Trust Company and plays golf regularly.
<br />With generous support from the Humanities Council of South Carolina (http://www.schumanities.org/), the Citadel Oral History Program collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans’ experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23421" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/135
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/861fbf697370a9b3c2ac9c8e6982385b.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=b%7EW655Obz39y2a5fu9hfhlZNgElZp%7E95nQ9A3LuGCrvvDjyJUPiSpkbXqRMY64CLMLNth2og3d0aZAip67c-5ctzKY%7Ev53EdRYsy2LcNV39YagZs3P3%7EDF8QSFs80CDSPpmsjvSx%7E%7E4z1ggVzQ7CUewAFZwR4cJBk8CCzH2lsj%7ENueJ3mbVoKxgECYspZMf-VFpvJfurgjEp9m1n5HjTbL0277Pw3T93kvpa42fXfpMXfyQJPYtcshNTpv2nFoHQqNppKRD-r5cBsoq9ZqivpZ0XREHGiqQ9biQozl2IkWo2IrypomMSOUVStq9BmFjpzFGA4Sbfv71uTOBxTLQZ8Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
d3b7d76c63ec04f3259a0402c0491d93
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – BERNARD WARSHAW
Interviewee: BERNARD WARSHAW
Interviewer: Dr. Jack Bass
Interview Date: October 1, 2008
Location: Walterboro, S.C.
Length: 1 CD; 1 hour 26 minutes 35 seconds
Dr. Jack Bass: Bernard let me ask you this question first. How did you get
interested in going to the Citadel to begin with?
Bernard Warshaw: Well Jack to be quite frank with you I never thought of any
other college all during my growing up days. It always had to be the Citadel, or maybe
Annapolis. That was my second thought, but I always had Citadel on my mind, and I may
tell you I applied and I was temporarily turned down because of my high school
background, but I was eventually accepted because Colonel Joe Moore a member of the
board lived in Walterboro and was a friend of my father’s. My dad and Colonel Moore
and I went down to see General Summerall, and the general interviewing me, and
speaking to my father and the colonel, suggested I not enter. He said, “You'll never make
it. Why don't you go to a Prep School first? Your background and education so far from
your high school is a lot to be desired.” He looked at me and said, "What do you think of
that?” I said, "General I would like to come and give it a try and if I don't make it the first
year I'll just keep going and count that as the same money as going to a prep school.”
Well anyway after some conversation between he and the board member, Colonel Moore,
�Bernard Warshaw
2
they permitted me to enter, and I did and that's how I got into the Citadel. I did my
freshman year; I made the basketball team which was a great honor for me. The freshman
ball team and I played all during the season and also by the end of the year flunked two
subjects. This made me on the border of being a sophomore and a freshman. Well from
that time on I had a little problem there and by the second semester of my sophomore
year I got all straightened out and from that time on I had no problems, and then my
senior year I was, with only very few classes to take, but I did decide to be a five year
man, and I have no regrets about it whatever. I was too young to start with when I went
there. So anyway that is the way I got into the Citadel, and that’s a bit of my Citadel
history.
JB: And you had grown up in Walterboro?
BW: Yes, sir.
JB: You were born when?
BW: October 27th, 1920. Twenty six more days and I'll have a birthday.
JB: Tell me when and under what circumstances did you enter the military?
BW: Well, as you know graduation was May the 30th, and by the time I got home
that Saturday afternoon there was a telegram waiting for me to report for service at Camp
Stewart. [Fort Stewart was then a Camp Stewart, just starting.] I reported on June 10th,
1942, and I may tell you my good friend Fritz Hollings came over here and [Francis]
“Banny” Jones from Batesburg, we met at my mother and dad's house, and I think the
fourth person I was trying to remember the other day was Will Deas, who has since
passed away, from Charleston. The four of us reported to Camp Stewart together. We
went down in my automobile and we reported and I remember a Lieutenant Colonel
�Bernard Warshaw
3
assigning us to organizations and I asked the Colonel a question after he asked if we had
questions. I said, “Can you put at least two of us together in an outfit?” He said, “We
never put Citadel men together; we need those separated; we need your type training.” So
I was assigned to the 433rd automatic weapons battalion, Hollings to another, and
“Banny” Jones and Will Deas to others. So that's when I reported, June the 10th, 1942.
We were at Camp Stewart for about three weeks, and then we got on a train that headed
toward the west. We were supposed to be going to the California area for transfer to some
other place in the western islands or wherever. But on the way down there seemed to be a
problem with Texas. You were probably too young to recall, but it was reported that a
German submarine in the Gulf of Mexico threw a shell on the hallowed grounds of Texas
around the Freeport/ Baytown Texas area. So our train was diverted and we got down to
the Galveston area, and each of our batteries was assigned to a small town to set up antiaircraft. My battery was set up around Freeport around the Dow Magnesium Corporation
and that organization was very important to the war effort at the time and our other
batteries were assigned to Baytown, Port Arthur, etc. We stayed there until January and
we got on a train and we headed up to the New York area at Fort Dix, and around
February 1st, or 2nd I forget, we got on liberty ships. Do you know what a liberty ship is?
Boy! A liberty ship is one of those quickly made freighters, well we were put on one of
those and eleven days we were on the ocean from New York and we landed in
Casablanca, and that was my first, they call, my first invasion I didn't see too much
invading about it, but that was officially called because of the timing.
JB: Let me ask this question, when you departed from New York to Casablanca
how long had you been on active duty?
�Bernard Warshaw
4
BW: (Pause) June, July, August, September, October, November, December,
about seven months. And all that time we were set up around Texas, the amount of
training and getting our men, and myself, more knowledgeable about our guns we had
40mm hooked onto a 50 caliber; we were anti-aircraft low flying fighters, and we
supposedly, after we got situated on the [African] continent, we were anti-tank as well,
but that was not effective. So we landed in Africa and stayed there until our next
invasion, which was Sicily.
JB: Tell me when you were in Africa, were you in combat?
BW: We were not in combat in Africa; we were training and supporting, the
troops that we had over in El Alamein, that sort of thing, out in the desert. But most of the
time we were there we were training because we were really ill prepared, by the time we
left Texas and got to Africa.
JB: Tell me when did you go into Europe itself and where?
BW: Sicily was my first invasion, and that was in July or August 1943.
JB: Tell me when you were first engaged in combat.
BW: That time, we landed in a small area called Gela, it was on the southeastern
side of the island of Sicily and we were there for a number of months and also I'm going
to interrupt and tell you this was the day the Mr. John L. Lewis [President of the Coal
Miners Union] called a strike, if you don’t recall, but he did, and we were on the move
going up to Palermo area and all of a sudden, we were ordered to have our trucks
stopped, our trucks were pulling our guns, etc. We had no fuel. He was head of the CIO
at the time. If you remember, everyone was so upset with that particular union, and Mr.
John L. Lewis, but nevertheless we never did get into Palermo. We got within sight of
�Bernard Warshaw
5
Palermo. But then we took an abrupt right and headed towards the coast of Italy. After we
left Sicily, we went into Italy and we crossed over into Sorrento, worked up until we got
to the [Monte] Cassino front, we stayed for months living in the snow and mud just living
in complete rain and mist. And the Cassino front, if you recall was a monastery on top of
this very high, high cliff our air corps could not do away with it, our shelling didn't help.
We had a lot of German fighters coming at us and that's when we started shooting planes
down for the second time. We shot some down in Sicily--in fact my particular battery is
credited for having shot down thirteen enemy aircraft. My battalion was credited for
shooting down fifty one planes and all fighters. We were always with the infantry and
armor trying to protect them.
JB: Tell me how many men you had in your battery?
BW: Well, first I'll tell you in the battalion we had 900, we had roughly 200 in our
battery and at the time of Sicily I was second lieutenant, when we went into Italy I was a
second lieutenant and then I finally got promoted to a first lieutenant. I forget when I was
promoted to captain, I was a captain a long time, and I was a battery commander even
though I served on battalion staff for a while. I was the youngest officer of the battalion
for quite a while, and I accumulated the name of Junior (chuckles), but the colonel put me
where he wanted me on the staff for a number of months to help, but I asked to be with
my men, and I was sent back to my battery.
JB: Then what was the next action?
BW: After Cassino Front, truly I didn't have a bath for three and a half weeks,
because we were all in these wool uniforms, and there was no place to undress or take a
shower. We left Cassino and went back to Naples. We were put together again and we
�Bernard Warshaw
6
then invaded Anzio beachhead, that was the going around the fighting at Cassino, and
landing at Anzio-Nattuno, Anzio beachhead, and after a number of weeks we pushed
through Rome and we got up to Rome and got through it and we stayed about two or
three miles north of Rome, and that's when my Jeep driver and I went back into Rome
trying to find a place to take a bath, and we did. We went to the Excelsior Hotel, we just
happened to find it, and we walked in and told them we wanted to rent a room for two
hours so we could bathe, anyway they let us use it, and I finished my bath, and my Jeep
driver took his. I went down to the lobby and bumped into some classmates down there
who were assigned to the American embassy, right next door. One of them said, "What
the hell are you doing here?” I said, trying to take a bath, and I said “What are you doing
here?” He said, "Oh, we are stationed at the embassy right next door,” so of course we
had some little jokes about that, that was their combat.
JB: Do you remember their names?
BW: No, I don't remember those, but they offered me the chance of spending the
evening with them. They had a party planned, they and some other officers, they said
they had the girls, the liquor and the food. Wondered if I would like to spend the night
there, it was an all night party. So I asked my jeep driver, if he could find this hotel at six
o'clock tomorrow morning. He assured me he could so I sent him back to the guns and I
stayed and had a great time, I guess! I don't know what the hell I did (laughter) quite
frankly, and after that we went back to the guns and we went to the area of Civitavecchia
which is the port for Rome. Which is about thirty miles away, north of Rome, and then
we were pulled back again back to the Naples staging area where we staged once again,
and then we got on some ships and went between Sardinia and [Corsica]. Anyway we
�Bernard Warshaw
7
ended up in the invasion of southern France at Saint Tropez and we landed there and
went east and went into Nice. Luckily, two or three of us managed to get into Monaco, I
wanted to see what the casino looked like even though we were in American uniforms we
had trouble going across the border, but they did let us. We got to the casino and luckily
one of the guards or whomever it was, let us in and they assured us we could not gamble
because we were in American uniforms, so they permitted us to buy a chip at the casino,
and where it is now, it might be in my footlocker somewhere, but that was the trip there,
and we went back to our guns and then we started working up the east side of France.
Going to Lyon, etc, etc, we eventually crossed over into Germany through the
Saarbrucken area through Saarbrucken-Kaiserslautern, then we headed down to [the
Frankfurt/ Wiesbaden area].
JB: Let me ask you this question.
BW: Sure.
JB: On these trips, when you are moving forward, tell me what that was like.
BW: Well, I'll tell you this. A lot of our friends ask me, "Did you see this, and did
you see that during the war?” My answer is “No, I didn't,” and the reason was, we were
in combat all the time, we were not sightseeing. There are a lot of things I passed and
didn't realize how important it was historically, or later on I should be interested, we were
trying to stay alive quite frankly. As my colonel asked me sometime before the war was
over he said, “Would you be interested in staying in the service?” I said absolutely not, I
said if I live through this I'm going back to Walterboro, South Carolina, and sell clothes.
I'm going back to the family business! I don't recall a paycheck given to me, I didn't need
the money, it was all sent back home, and I was overseas and again I’ll tell you from
�Bernard Warshaw
8
about February 1st, 1943 and we got back to the states in October 1945. In just a minute,
I’ll tell you how I got home; it was interesting.
During the time you just asked me where I landed and stuff, in Sicily, we helped
the gliders. Do you remember the gliders? The first time they used them they came into
Sicily. Just before dawn and evidently our intelligence people failed to tell our Air Force
people that the farms in Sicily and Italy are divided by stone fences, all the stones taken
out the farms and they stacked them up and made a fence out of them separating
territories between farm and farm. These gliders came in and landed up against these
stone fences and tore them up and a lot of our soldiers get killed and hurt, and everything
else. I don't know what word to use, but some of my men and I went over and helped get
out some of the wounded [and dead] out of the gliders--they were falling apart, they were
never going to be used again anyway. Evidently, someone didn't bother to tell them what
was going to happen. So we got a lot of the bodies and wounded out then that was one
little incident that happened in an olive grove where we were bivouacked. I'm digressing
a bit. We went back to the beach to retrieve one of our guns that got stuck in the mud and
the sand there, and the beach was a little muddy, we had a lot of men trying to get it to
shore, that's when I went back with my men and I saw General Patton for the first time
who was getting off and on a tank that was stuck in the water. He was all dressed with
his Pearl handled pistols, and they were taking pictures of him over and over. He was a
tough general; he was my kind of fellow. His philosophy of war if it took ten men to
accomplish a job, take twenty. Your percentage of losses would be less. He was my kind
of fellow; he was a great military man. That was the first time I saw the general, and if
you recall, he lost his command there and he slapped a soldier who was in a field hospital
�Bernard Warshaw
9
and he thought the soldier was “gold bricking.” After hearing the story many, many times
and seen the movie many, many times, I agree with the general. I would have down the
same thing. But anyway, we finally left that area and started moving up towards the west
on roads, the better highways. Going on up there was very little combat after the initial
few days for the invasion in Sicily. By the time we got to Italy if you recall General
Clark, and General Alexander, the British General--they worked collaboratively. The
invasion turned out to be successful even though it wasn’t successful at first. We went up
where we were really stymied at the Cassino front for a long, long time and I might tell
you this it was the first time in my life that I heard bag pipes. I never saw this bag pipe
group, across a little mountain from where we were early one morning I heard this music
and it was bag pipes. The British were trying to go up the Cassino hill trying to capture
the objective, it was holding us up so badly...Cassino, but anyway it got my blood
flowing and it has never happened to me since that time and the bag pipes were
absolutely getting everyone stirred up. Anyway, I said before we finished we were then
pulled back to Naples for staging and went around to Anzio beachhead and that was a
little tough there and while at Anzio, we were told there was no more ammunition, there
was no more food, there's no more anything, and each day one of my sergeants went back
to the docks to get some ammunition and food, and on two or three occasions he came
back empty handed, because the ships that were coming into the harbor with the
necessities were shelled by the German big guns up on the hill popping them off as the
ships tried to anchor. So finally it did work out, one time we were put on fourth rations,
one for one day, it was half rations the next day, and we were told on the fourth rations
don't fire your guns unless it was absolutely at the planes coming in. So it was tough at
�Bernard Warshaw
10
Anzio and there is a pretty cemetery there by the way that I’ve never seen. The people
who have seen it say it the prettiest of the twenty-six we have overseas of American
bodies. Anzio-Nattuno that was the area. We pushed through Rome it was really
uneventful, the Germans and Italians have broken up even before that. It was really
uneventful after we starting leaving Anzio. Going into Rome was just a matter of riding
through Rome, and as we came back for our baths we were sniped at. My Jeep was hit a
couple of times by some civilians. Later they told us the fascists were shooting at us. We
fired back a number of times into what we thought were some correct windows; we don't
know if we hit anyone or not, but the three culprits were eventually pulled out this
particular building. We saw them from a distance. They were taken around the building
and I asked the police standing near me, asked what was going to happen to those
fellows? In both English and Italian he said they would probably take them back to the
building and shoot them. So, anyway, that was a story about being sniped at. Luckily we
didn't get hurt; our jeep had a lot of bullet holes in it.
JB: Now during these campaigns, was your battalion firing other than at
airplanes?
BW: We were firing either at light tanks or at armored vehicles, and we were not
really effective. The tanks we fired at even though our 40 mm shells they were fixed for
either aircraft or some of the vehicles, some of them had steel heads but they bounced off
like popcorn. It didn't penetrate anything. So we just stuck to shooting at airplanes. Now
at Anzio beachhead we did not fire at individual planes because all anti-aircraft outfits on
Anzio beachhead were set up and we fired at patterns. Soon as planes were visible we
started firing into a pattern as well as other anti-aircraft organizations did the same thing,
�Bernard Warshaw
11
throwing up a curtain. And we inadvertently shot down a British plane and luckily the
pilot was rescued right across what we called the border, it was a cement pathway for
water coming down. A great lot of farming area in that area so the, what was the word I
am thinking of? So this British plane-JB: Sort of like irrigation?
BW: Irrigation, irrigation ditch that’s what it was except this was a cement one,
and was supposedly our border.
JB: So that irrigation cement ditch was the border between one side and the other?
BW: That’s correct, that was on our side. I say it was on the eastern side of Anzio
beachhead. Anyway, we managed to rescue the British pilot. Who later said, not to me
but to an interviewer said it was his fault for coming in an area where our guns were
firing. We had some firing at certain altitudes and bigger guns firing higher, you know a
complete curtain. So anyway he was shot down, but other than that a number of German
planes were shot down, and when we finally got ourselves together at Anzio at one time-by the way my outfit was called to help string barbed wire--things had gotten that badly
on the road to being overrun by the Germans. And I had to take half of my battery, and
we were taken by a young engineer lieutenant. I was a first lieutenant as well; the
engineer lieutenant showed us how to string barbed wire and gave us gloves and my men
did a fantastic job, not only my outfit but one or two other outfits around us. We were in
a rush to string this barbed wire. And every day at three o’clock we were told by the
engineering lieutenant that the Germans start shelling, shelling us at that time precisely at
three o’clock. He made us all go back into the woods where our trucks were parked, and
we just stood there and sure enough at three o’clock the shells started coming over and
�Bernard Warshaw
12
we started hitting the ground and all that sort of thing. After one time he didn’t get up and
I rolled him over and I said “Did they get you?” and he said “I’m afraid so,” and that’s
exactly what he said, he was hit in his right chest and I made a “big booboo” and I took
my knife out of my boot and I cut his clothes to see his wound and I cut his sleeves the
best I could. This was in winter time and I put the sulfur on him and bandaged him up
here, and I got my syringe out of my kit and I stuck him in his arm, and it wouldn’t go
and I kept doing it and doing it and finally I figured it was done and I threw it away, and
I put an “M” on his forehead, meaning that he had a shot of morphine, meanwhile we
were calling for medic we had a field hospital around us all the time, and the fellows
came with the stretcher and I took the lieutenant’s gun and his wallet and watch, and
they hauled him off and then after he left, I went back to stand where I was before we hit
the ground to get my composure back and one of my sergeants said, “Captain stand up
against that truck again.” I had my back to the truck. He took his knife out and over my
head he stuck it into the wooden part of our truck and there was a piece of shrapnel must
have been about two inches long that luckily passed over my head an inch or so. So
anyway, I realized I went back to where the lieutenant was on the ground and I found the
syringe. I had failed to break the tip; that’s why I couldn’t get it into him. Why I did that,
I just failed to break off the tip. Well then I had to rush to the field hospital to tell them
this lieutenant had not had morphine and he needed a shot to ease his pain. Luckily I got
in and found a doctor there. I told him what had happened, and he said, “I’m glad you
told me.” So went back and the doctor gave him the shot. That was the last time I saw
him, and his wallet, pistol and watch that I had, they gave me a manila envelope and I put
it in and I wrote his name on it, I forget his name now, but I’ve never seen or heard from
�Bernard Warshaw
13
him since. But later on I sent one of my men to check on him, and he had been
transferred to a general hospital. And they told me he was handling his treatment well. So
that as far as I know about him. After that with the food and the ammunition thing being
very short at the time, we were very concerned if you can imagine telling your men don’t
fire unless you feel confident hit something or whatever even though we were firing into
a pattern. We all came through that okay and we went down from C rations to K rations.
Do you know what that is?
JB: Tell me.
BW: C rations is the can of food that my jeep driver and I always had wired to the
motor of my jeep so we always had a hot meal if we couldn’t get anything else to eat.
They give you a can of meat and beans, and another can that went with it were biscuits
and cigarettes and chocolate bar and salt and pepper, all the condiments. So you
somehow managed to open, there wasn’t one of those magic openers, you had to fight it
with a knife or whatever you had, and it was always hot, as I said, because it was hooked
on to the motor. So, we had that to eat, that was our main stay of eating, either meat and
beans or some other concoction, I don’t know, but that was my favorite, meat and beans,
and then crackers of course, we ate. The chocolate bars were so rich we didn’t eat those
all the time. We passed by some civilians who were groveling and the food pales
wherever the Americans cooking wherever the kitchens were. We didn’t have too much
of the mess of the dining room nothing like that. Our dining room consisted of being
under a tree, with maybe a piece of canvass hanging. We had a mess sergeant, but what
he do most of the time, opened up a can and put them in a great big pot and heat them.
That was for headquarters because they were always there. But those of us our battery
�Bernard Warshaw
14
who were in combat if we managed to get there we very, very lucky. Usually it was eat
where you can, and eat where you are. That’s how we lived for a long time. C rations
then K rations came on the market. The K ration was one box and it was made up of
concentrated eggs and very potent chocolate bar; it was so sweet I could hardly eat it
sometimes, and crackers and cigarettes, four cigarettes. And salt, pepper, that’s all I
remember. Wait a minute; I think there was a little packet of coffee in there that you
poured some hot water into it. So when we went from C rations to K rations, it was a
matter of good eating. So where shall I go from here?
JB: Ok, where did you next move into what part of Europe?
BW: From Anzio?
JB: From Anzio you went and told me how you got into France-BW: Southern France, correct.
JB: Lyon I think.
BW: That’s one of the big geographical locations. We were on the right side, the
eastern side of France. Going up the highway not much combat going up; there were
pockets. And we again went through the industrial area, the Saar area, KaiserslauternSaarbrucken that area. Then we crossed in and went to the Frankfurt/ Wiesbaden area.
And then we were called up to Belgium to the Bulge and I recall correctly it took us six
days in rain and snow and everything else to get up there. We got there and the weather
was so bad airplanes could not fly, American or German, and those were the days the
Germans had changed the highway signs, had gotten a lot of our uniforms, had gotten our
vehicles somehow, wherever they got them. They were roaming around in American
uniforms, so we didn’t know who we were talking to. Or what we were doing in the area,
�Bernard Warshaw
15
other than trying to stay alive. We couldn’t shoot at the planes, like I said because the
weather was so overcast. After we were there a week, dug in our guns and it usually took
us about two to three [days] to dig in our guns and fill the sand bags and build the
revetments around all of them. We were in that area for about a week, and we were told
the weather was so bad, nothing was happening go back to where you came from. So we
headed back south to the Wiesbaden/ Frankfurt area and we settled in a little town called
Gladdenbach. .
JB: How do you spell it?
BW: G-l-a-d-d-e-n-b-a-c-h. For a long time I couldn’t remember the name of that
town and luckily I found a little picture with the name on the back of Gladdenbach 1945.
So I refreshed my memory during the past few years. And from there we rejoined
General Patton. He got his command back and he came across the channel into France if
you recall. At D-Day he came across and we were rejoined with him, and he became my
general again, and we went up as far as we could into Germany. They wouldn’t let us into
the Berlin area because the Russians had to go in first--international politics. But we were
with General Patton, which was a blessing, and we ended the war. We were at
Gladdenbach. I became although it was not official because it was so early after the war
just finishing I became a military governor, for maybe a month. Our battery’s main job
was as well as the other batteries in our battalion and other areas surrounding us we had
to go out and gather the guns, knives, and other implements of war from all the civilians.
No matter if they lived in the mountains, wherever they lived in the area. And that’s what
my men did every day after the war was over then. And they would bring in truckloads of
armaments, pistols, and stuff. In fact they were all dumped into this particular house I
�Bernard Warshaw
16
was using at the time; it was a three story house. We used in our outfit. I had a mansion,
really a mansion; it had no furnishings. The living room became the warehouse, the
trucks would come in and dump everything that day and one day my First Sergeant said,
“Hey Captain what’s in that box against the wall over there.” It was a long box. I guess it
was about two feet long and about four or five [inches] square. I said “Sergeant how the
hell should I know? Why don’t you open up and see?” So he did and there was a double
barreled shot gun with a rifle underneath--it had never been fired. Later on I found out we
were in the plantation country so this had to belong to one of the plantation owners. So
we got ready to pack up and go sometime later I told my sergeant why don’t you take it
home as a souvenir, and he said “Captain, why don’t you take it?” I said “I don’t go
hunting, I’m not a hunter.” He said, “Well I’ll see.” Anyway it ended up weeks later we
found it along the move to come home, and I had a duffle bag and a foot locker he had
somehow [placed it in the bag].
JB: This was how long after V - E Day?
BW: This was in October of 45.
JB: Let me ask you this question. I don’t want to interrupt your train of thought.
Tell me where you were on V - E Day? How you felt at that time? When you learned of
it? How you learned of it?
BW: I was at Gladdenbach area. The Frankfurt/ Wiesbaden area, which was not
the combat there that it was later on as you went to see different parts of Germany, this
area was--there was nothing there as far as something to be done away with. We were in
an area where there wasn’t too much industry, that sort of thing-JB: It was more of an agricultural region?
�Bernard Warshaw
17
BW: Agricultural region, right. I knew they had on the rail it wasn’t too far from
Cologne, where they made beer. Of course they had a lot of places that made beer on the
river especially. But V - E Day was just another day to me. Of course we did follow the
Stars and Stripes; that was my news. It was a normal day as I remember, Jack.
JB: Remember how you felt about it at all? Did you suddenly feel the war was
over?
BW: Thank God we were going home. That was May or June. I’m going to jump
a little bit. Colonel called me one day and he said, “Junior, I want you to go up to the
railhead now see how many box cars they will give us.” So I said what’s that for
Colonel? And he said well we are going home. I said “wonderful.” I asked what’s the
deal with the boxcars? He said well, we are going to leave here in box cars and go
towards the English Channel. Now that’s a long, long haul. It ended up I went to the rail
head and they gave us how many German box cars, I don’t know, but a European box car
is smaller than our American box cars. And he gave us whatever and the first thing I said,
I took a lieutenant and sergeant with me. I said let’s find some lumber and double deck
these boxcars, and my lieutenant said “Double deck these box cars I never heard of that.”
I said well; if we are going to have enough room for all our men. That’s the only way we
can do them so we can get them to the Channel. So sure enough we scoured around for a
couple of days and we found enough boards and stuff, we doubled decked all our box
cars. Then I said let’s get some straw, we had a hell of a time finding some straw even
though we did and then we found oil cans. Made stoves out of them, we put a stove in
each box car with a smoke pipe going out. And that’s how it took us seven days to go
from the railhead near Gladdenbach or Frankfurt to head west towards the English
�Bernard Warshaw
18
Channel. Stopped twice a day and at every stop there was food available, that’s how we
got across to the channel. We got there and we went across on barges. My outfit ended up
in Tidworth barracks in England. I didn’t see the barracks, and I had my orderly take my
bags where they were supposed to be and I got two of my friends and I said let’s ride this
train. They had trains from Tidworth barracks to London, one each hour back and forth. I
said, “Let’s go into London. I don’t know if I’ll ever be coming back this way.” For sure
enough it must have been about eleven o’clock before we got situated. We got on the
train, went into London. Got back about six o’clock in the morning, I don’t know what
the hell we did. My other two friends didn’t know what they did. We just don’t
remember. But anyway when we got back and one of my sergeants said to me, “The
colonel has been looking for you all night.” So I finally found the colonel. He said, “I’m
not going to ask you where you’ve been, what you’ve been doing, I really don’t care. But
here are some papers right there on the floor. Pick those up and start studying.” I said,
“What are those colonel?”
“We are going home on the queen Elizabeth II.” It was troop ship. He said,
“Guess who is the billeting officer?” I said I don’t have the slightest idea, and he said,
“You are.” He said you are taking six thousand home on that ship. I said six thousand! He
said we had to be connected to the 69th division, in order for all the necessary military
papers to be filled out etc, etc. I said, “why me?” He said, “Well, quite frankly junior you
did such a good job getting us on the box cars, I didn’t want to turn you down. So I want
you to do it.” I said “yes sir.” So I got to Southampton. I laid out the papers and started
studying them. The first thing I did I crossed out a suite that was still available; I put a big
X on it because that was going to be for me. Well, the next day, actually two days, so on
�Bernard Warshaw
19
the third day the troops started coming each one either were in hammocks or cots.
Anyway, everyone had a place to stay. There were some rooms divided into like ten
people per suite. So we prepared ourselves and within twenty-four hours and we were
loaded and about twenty minutes before we pulled out I see this car coming down the
docks and there is a flag waving and I said “Oh, there is a general coming” and sure
enough a lieutenant colonel got out of the car and came over down on the dock “He said
who’s in charge of billeting?” I said, “I am sir.” I was a captain talking to a lieutenant
colonel. He said General so-and-so or whoever it was. I never heard of him. He decided
he wants to go home now and not wait for another couple of weeks. So, I said Colonel,
I’m so sorry, we have no accommodations for the general. He said, let me see your
layout. He looked at it and said “What’s this one crossed out? Who is that for?” I said
that’s for the general. He said I thought you said you didn’t have any room for the
general. I said, “Well I didn’t when we first started talking that was mine, but now it’s
his.” So that’s how the general got on board. I ended up having a cot somewhere but I
didn’t sleep in it because five of us were on top deck between the smokestacks and the
weather was so beautiful in October 1945 that we stayed up there. There were five
officers and three nurses and two WACs. And inside the door was the shower and bathing
facilities that sort of thing. So anyway we had a great big time eating and drinking and
whatever else went on. We pulled into New York City and I had to be the first man down
the gangplank to check my men off as they came off the ship to be sure that all six
thousand were still on board. The first thing I did--I was standing around and the Red
Cross ladies were there, two or three of them had milk. I drank five half pints of milk.
Just standing right there, I hadn’t had milk in all that time. So anyway I checked off all
�Bernard Warshaw
20
the men, and I got them all checked off. We ended up then having to go to Fort Dix, and
went to Fort Dix and stayed overnight and I was supposed to go to Fort Bragg I was
handed about sixteen folders; I was taking sixteen men with me to Fort Bragg. Anyway,
we were getting off the train at Fort Bragg, but I hadn’t been home as I told you in more
than three years. So I said to hell with this; I’m going home to see my mother and daddy
and get my car and drive back up to Fort Bragg the next day. Well, I had one master
sergeant there and I handed him all the folders except mine and I said, you handle them,
and he did and the train pulled off going down towards Charleston and we couldn’t get
into Charleston because of some kind of flood of some kind. Heavy rains. My family was
waiting for me. They stayed there for hours, never could get in. Well eventually I guess a
half a day later, the train finally got into Charleston, and I had one of my relatives in
Charleston bring me to Walterboro. I saw my mother and daddy and I spent the night, and
I got in my car and went back to Fort Bragg and a lieutenant colonel was there. He
wanted to know where I was, because I was AWOL and so-and-so. He was giving me a
very rough time he wanted to report me for being absent without leave and I finally
cracked the ice. I said, “Colonel when did you get back?” he stopped and he said “What
was that?” I said, “When did you get back?” He said I haven’t been anywhere. I said,
“You haven’t been overseas?” He said, “I haven’t been overseas.” He got very soft
talking to me then. He wasn’t quite as harsh about the absent without leave. So he did the
necessary paperwork; he got me out within a day and I started back home. And then I got
a notice, I had to report to Fort Jackson, for something, oh, for finalizing getting out
cause I was not going to be in the service even though I was again invited to. So the
general up in Fort Jackson asked me, “What are you doing wearing those captains bars?”
�Bernard Warshaw
21
I said, “I have been a captain quite a while.” He said, “You are a regular army captain or
a reserve major, which one you want to do?” I said, “I’m in the reserves. I’m not going to
stay in the service.” So, he said you better change your insignia. With that he opened his
drawer and pulled out a major’s leaf and put in on my collar for me. So I ended up being
a major in the reserves, inactive reserves. All during this time whoever checked us out,
even the colonel up at Fort Bragg who got a little ugly at times, he wanted to discuss the
war. And I give you as sure as I could but there are more interesting things for me to tell
you then what I’ve told you.
For example one thing in Italy we were riding down the road; it must have been
five o’clock in the morning. I had my head back trying to sleep sitting up in the jeep and
we were moving and something told me to say, “Stop.” And I screamed stop! With that
my jeep driver slammed on the brakes we were riding in black out lights by the way. I
don’t know if you are familiar with black out lighting. They had little slivers on the
headlights; even the flash lights just had a little light, through a flashlight. Anyway we
got out and started checking around, we were eighteen inches from a deep ditch over to
the right he stopped exactly two feet from bridge that had blown up and that was a thirty
foot drop. We went back later to check it. Anyway that was one of those little
experiences.
JB: Where was that?
BW: This was in Italy. Also, I got caught in a mine field in Italy. I was
reconnoitering for gun placement. I got on top of hill, very hard dirt and rocky. How we
got up there I don’t know, but once we got up there, and we were reconnoitering as to
where the guns were to be placed, my lieutenant said “Stop!” I said, “What’s that,” he
�Bernard Warshaw
22
said “Mines!” I looked down. There were trip wires all over the top, all over the place.
So of course we had to go down, and the stuff is the way you do it. I started down and the
lieutenant followed my footsteps, and the sergeant followed the lieutenant footsteps.
Luckily we got down. Then I called the engineers and the team blew up the top of the
knoll. Got rid of all those mines, and I could tell you this; it’s not off the record. Once
my colonel called me and said, “I’ve put you in for a Bronze Star.” I said, “What’s that
for?” He said, “Oh for the mine field deal. You handled it very, very well.” I said,
“Unless you have two I don’t want one.” He said, “What does all that mean?” I said, “It
means that Sergeant Maughn was with me, and Sergeant Maughn is very needed in my
outfit and he is very important to me; so if you only get one, give it to him. Because he is
going to stay in the service if we live through this thing.” He got upset and cursed me up
and down like I never heard a West Pointer talk. Anyway I left and about a month later,
sure enough he called and said “Come on up here I got your star for you.” So I went there
and he said “Oh, okay I had the papers all made up.” I said “Colonel I told you some time
ago, if you had one I wasn’t going to take it, I wanted you to give it to Sergeant
Maughn.” He got upset and told me to get my behind out of his tent, this and that. So I
guess about a month later he called me and told me to bring Sergeant Maughn, he got his
star for him. So sure enough I turned down the Bronze Star so Sergeant Maughn could
have gotten it.
JB: So you ended up not getting one?
BW: I did not get one, but I have no regrets! I really have no regrets about not
getting one. It was more meaningful to him because he did stay in the service. And what
happened to him after a while I don’t know. But my colonel ended up being a major
�Bernard Warshaw
23
general in charge of all of Alaska. Back in those days when you got out you had twelve
months to get back in at your same rank. I addressed him, “Colonel.” He said, “I’m not a
colonel anymore.” I said, “What does that mean, Edgar?” He said, “I’m now a Brigadier
General.” He said, “I’m going to be promoted as soon as soon as I set up the Alaskan
project.” I said, “Tell me about it.” He said, “Well number one I called you because I
have a position on my staff if you want to come back in. You can either have G-2
intelligence, or G-4 supplies.” I said, “Well, Edgar, I don’t think I’m interested; I met a
young lady and I think I’m going to get married. I’m not engaged yet.” He said “I’ll tell
you what. I’ll call you back in a so and so date,” which would have been about eleven
and a half months from me getting out. So sure enough he called back and he had gotten
that promotion. He was a major general then. He said, “Ok I’ve got the G-2 intelligence
open that’s the only one because [Major] Bristol had decided to come back with me,
Williamson has come back with me.” These were men that I served with. He said, “I’m
calling you and if you turn it down I’m going to call somebody they need to call.” I said,
“Well I’m turning it down, because I’m now engaged. I’m going to stay home and sell
clothes in Walterboro, South Carolina, as I told you before.” I said congratulations on
your promotion. Because at one time this fellow on Cassino Front called me into his
foxhole, his foxhole he dug on the side of a hill. His orderly had done that and put a piece
of metal to make a roof out of it and put dirt on top. Well anyway he called me in and he
was all upset because his West Point class--most of them were colonels and he hadn’t
been promoted yet; he was still a lieutenant colonel. And he started crying. I had never
seen that happen before. So we went into his foot locker or bag whatever he had and
brought out a half of pint of the cheapest liquor I had ever put in my mouth. I was never a
�Bernard Warshaw
24
drinker. But he opened the bottle and said have a drink. I put it to my lips enough to taste
and that was it. And he took a swig of it and sealed the bottle and put it back. And he
was crying all during this time. I said you are awful upset about not being promoted. He
said that’s right. I said, “Well you brought the subject up, when do I get promoted?” I
was a first lieutenant then. He said when I get promoted you get promoted. Well luckily
in a matter of months he was promoted to a full colonel, and I was promoted to a captain
(Bernard laughs). So that was another little incident, I don’t know what else to tell you,
I’m sure after you leave other things will pop in my mind. But I’ll tell you this, so we all
had jobs to do. We find many, many heroes. Some no question about being honest,
honest heroes. We have others who were not as fortunate as I to have seen combat. I
consider myself very fortunate to have participated in combat for our country--to support
our flag. And our way of life which is what it is all about. I have no regrets whatever, for
having done what I did. And again I say I’m not a hero. I just had a job to do, and yes I
was in combat quite awhile. Combat areas that I have according to my records, and they
were burned in St. Louis in an army warehouse. I never have found or straightened out. I
have four invasions and eleven campaigns.
JB: Can you list them?
BW: The campaigns, invasions? Well, we were given credit they called coming to
Africa an invasion. And that was fully two weeks after the initial invasion, and when the
French blew up there all the naval ships you know they called that an invasion. I didn’t
really. I called Sicily a devout invasion, absolutely. That was the day when the LST the
naval fellow wanted to drop us off, and he started off to drop us off in six feet of water. I
�Bernard Warshaw
25
said, “You going to do what?” “Six feet, I’m not going any closer all the damn mines
and look at the cross ties they made out of railroad.” You know what I mean.
JB: Railroad ties?
BW: Yeah, railroad ties. Not the steel the-JB: The beams.
BW: The rails and the mines and I said, “We can’t I got some men that are five
feet five inches tall. Anyway, he finally got up into five feet, and he said “I’m not going
any closer. And I had a carbine in my hand and I laid it on his shoulder. And he said
“what’s that all about?” I said take us up within two to three feet, and said he can’t do it.
He said, “You seem damn serious about me going up closer.” I said, “I’m damn serious.”
You know what a carbine is don’t you? He took us up within five feet, and he says
lieutenant I can’t go any closer I’m scared of the mines. See them bottling up there.
Anyway, we got within five feet as the mouth drop I was the first one off. Wading
through water I took two of my men and I held them [by their packs], we were loaded.
This was August we had wool uniforms on in Sicily we couldn’t understand why were
wearing wool uniforms in August of 1943 the invading of Sicily. It so happens, thank
God we did because that night it got cold. The nights were cold the days were hot, but we
had wool. Anyway, I grabbed two of my men and they had a lot of stuff packed on their
backs, finally got them up so they could walk they were short gentlemen. That was
another invasion. Italy, I was not there the first or second day it was the third day I got
into Italy, Anzio beachhead initially. So that’s one... two...three counting Africa that‘s
one so it’s four, next on is Saint Tropez, five, I just counted them as four on my records
and I have some little decorations somewhere with all kind of little stars on them. But I
�Bernard Warshaw
26
had out local service officer come and try to get my complete history, for ribbons that
sort of thing and they sent back information, general information they had no medals for
Africa. I understand there’s an African medals around. Some separate Sicilian and Italian
medals. There are some French medals; there is a special Anzio medal. Anyway I never
got any of that because my records were gone and quite frankly it would be nice to have
but it hasn’t affected my life at all. So again I told you originally we had a job to do.
Thank God we finished it.
I had a misfortune or fortune of going to the Dachau concentration camp the
morning after it was taken. My colonel called me late one night, and he said, “Meet me at
certain coordinates.” I said, “Colonel we are on the move.” He said did you hear what I
said. I said “Yes sir, I’ll be there.” He said six o’clock. “Yes, sir.” Well six o’clock my
jeep driver and I went to this particular cross road. I had him digging a fox hole for
himself and I saw that he had enough water, ammunition and food. Hide the jeep under
some trees. I waited and colonel came by and I got into the back of his jeep. I said
“Where are we going?” He said, “Wait until you get there and I’ll tell you.” We rode east
for about 45 minutes, came upon the Dachau concentration camp. Before we got to the
gates the odor was such, Jack, we could hardly stand it. The colonel pulled out his
handkerchief, his jeep driver did that, and of course I did that as well. We get there and
there is nothing but piles and piles of bodies. I have pictures of that that I have been
speaking around the schools and churches about concentration camps. We stayed there
must have been about forty-five minutes. We could not talk to any of the [prisoners]
patients there; they were all pushed back into the barracks. They were not permitted to
talk to us and vice versa because of the diseases were so rampant. And the few that I saw,
�Bernard Warshaw
27
they were really skin and bones. What I saw mostly were piles and piles of bodies,
because at Dachau they had four ovens. And they couldn’t burn the bodies quick enough.
I opened one oven with my right hand. It was not warm, it was not hot; it was in between
it was one of these; I still have a little remembrance of it. And then in my left hand I
opened the other one. Bones were still smoldering, and the pictures are most upsetting!
My colonel all during the war took pictures of everything; he was a big picture taker.
And he said Junior, and he threw me a roll of film. He said, “Here’s my camera.” I said,
“Colonel I’ll just get copies of yours sometime.” He said, “Nope you take these pictures;
one of these days they might be meaningful.” So I did, I took that roll and put it in my
pocket. A few days later I told one of my sergeants see where we can develop them. He
went somewhere and came back and the photographic shop was open, he said. He
couldn’t do them because he didn’t have the right chemicals. So I said take the damn
things back, and tell him do the best he can. So a week later we went back, my sergeant
did, he picked up the pictures for me. Sure enough they were developed. I have some of
the originals. But meanwhile one of my local photographers from Walterboro had some
sent off to Chicago and revitalized, and I don’t know if you know it or not but at the
College of Charleston they had a display. Or still have I’m not sure, up in the
[Addlestone] Library. Anyway they used some of my pictures. I got a call some years
ago. And they wanted to know if they could use my pictures. I had spoken at KKBE
about the holocaust many years ago. They asked if they could have pictures for the
College of Charleston. I told them I would have copies made for them, but they wanted
the originals, and they said we’ll send you the copies. I said okay fine, but I kept some of
the originals. Well back to the Holocaust concentration camp episode, it was absolutely
�Bernard Warshaw
28
horrible. Mind boggling and I say stacks and stacks of bodies must have been eight, ten,
twelve feet high. Have you ever been to a concentration camp?
JB: I have not.
BW: The way it was done. The people were taken off the trains and trucks and put
into what was called a baden, shower bath. They were pushed in and the door locked
from the outside and the only other door was on this side and it locked from the outside
as well. When the shower room, it must have been a room. I would guess fifteen by
twenty five. And the hot water was turned on and meanwhile there were people standing
up next to one another and when the shower heads were turned on there was a saline-there was a tablet in each shower head that released gas, and that’s how the people were
killed. Standing up they were dead. And they were taken out of this door after so much
time. And again I say they didn’t have enough ovens to burn everyone so they just
starting piling them outside. That was the first sight we saw. We went through the shower
and opened the ovens like I told you, and it’s been on my mind ever since. One of the
piles I saw most vivid in my mind about three feet up was a little girl must have been five
or six years old, dressed in a black smock and that’s always on my mind. We thought we
were cleansing the world, but it’s still going on these days I’m sorry to say. We humans
have a beastly feeling in us. Somewhere in the world you know. That visit was not to be
erased anytime soon. That was 1945, so that’s 63 years ago.
JB: Tell me just how you felt at that time, when you first saw all of this?
BW: Jack, I think I was so stunned that I had no feeling whatever, the colonel, his
sergeant, his driver, and myself. I don’t think we said ten words walking around looking
at these piles of bodies. We could not get into the barracks, we could just look at them
�Bernard Warshaw
29
and they were maybe twenty five feet away. The stench coming out of there was horrible,
but the bodies overshadowed the stench. Those people who were still living were just
bones. To tell you a feeling the older I get the more feeling I have. Someone along the
way, many people did not do what the Bible taught them to do. You need to take care of
your fellow man. Some Germans say it didn’t happen. I had a gentleman. I’m jumping
the subject. I had the occasion to speak at an opening of a museum in Barnville one time
when my very close friend, a Baptist minister, use to be there. He asked if I would speak
at the opening of this museum, and I told him I would, and there was a gentleman in the
middle of the audience sitting there the whole time with his hands crossed on his chest.
And I said, “Sir, do you have a question you would like to ask?” His question was, “Do
you really believe everything you are saying about the concentration camps about the
Holocaust?” I said, “I believe every word I have said to you. Do you see the pictures I
have that were floating around here? Those are my pictures that I took! I did not buy
them. I did not get them out of a magazine. I took those pictures. So everything I tell you
and everything I show you I know all about and I’m sorry you don’t but I would like to
meet with you for about ten minutes after I finish here.” So I finished with the audience
and the best questions I had came from teenagers, quite frankly. Their questions were
specific and to the point about the Holocaust and the concentration camps. Finally when
we were finished I walked down to this gentleman with a scowl on his face, and I turned
the chair around and I said “Sir, how may I help you realize what really went on.” He
said, “Well I don’t know if I really believe all of that. That it would happen I’m not that
sure.” I spent about ten minutes with him, and I finally said to him “You know the
information that I’ve given you. What I said from the podium is absolutely with nothing
�Bernard Warshaw
30
but veracity. I’ve seen it. I was there, and now I’m telling you.” Before I left after the ten
minutes could have been fifteen, he said, “You know maybe you convinced me a little
bit, but I’m not so sure. I guess I better go read up on it a little bit more.” I said, “Let me
suggest you do because it’s something that everyone in the world should know about. It’s
so inhumane.” That was a little incident, just one.
JB: Did the colonel invite you specifically because he knew you were Jewish?
BW: I never have figured that out, Jack. More than likely yes and on the other
hand he always had a hand on my shoulder I believe, because I was the youngest in the
battalion for a long, long time and he had been my third colonel. I had one in Texas, who
was an alcoholic, from West Point who was dropped, then we had another one in
Casablanca we picked up another one commanding officer, colonel, then we had this
third one; he was the one who cried. We never discussed religion. I did go to the
synagogue in Nice, France during Rosh Hashanah. It was 1944. I met some people there
that I was friends with for many years after; they were Germans and they escaped. A little
sidelight, they sent their possessions railway express to Switzerland and they finally
escaped and went to pick up their possessions and the Swiss officials at this office made
them pay ten percent of the valuation before they would give it to them--held them up
really. They asked the value and checked the slips, but anyway I met them at the
synagogue in Nice. The parents could not speak English and the teenager could, the boy,
and they eventually moved to Brussels. And one time along the way we were in France.
My colonel said it was time for you to have a little R and R--you never had any. He said
why don’t you go to Paris and have a long weekend. If you come a day late don’t worry
about it. So I got the necessary papers and so and I got my jeep with my jeep driver and I
�Bernard Warshaw
31
said, “Chief, we aren’t going to Paris, we are going to Brussels, and to hell with Paris. All
the American soldiers are going to Paris I don’t want to go there.” So it gave me a good
idea, a good chance, to visit with those Bratts’ B-R-A-T-T, the Bratt family in Brussels
they eventually got to our country. I never saw the parents over here but the son the
teenager grew up, started selling eyeglass frames in our country, and he passed through
once in a while and spent the night with us. Then I lost contact with him. So that was
another little sidelight.
Oh, I bumped into Fritz Hollings the first time in France. He was in a searchlight
battalion to start with, and then he got into another type of battalion but the first meeting
was in Algiers, but I just bumped into him, and then again I met him in southern France.
In a little town of Gruyere--they make pipes there. First Christmas we were home I got a
package from him. There was a pipe with an Arab face in it, carved with a beard and a
little note. In memory of having met overseas or something of that nature. I still have the
pipe. He brought [three] back. Do you remember his uncle and benefactor Dr. J. D. E.
Meyer?
JB: No, I did not know him
BW: He turned out to be a bad person, even though he was very responsible for
Fritz going through college, and stuff. Major Meyer eventually married a German lady,
and she had the major’s head turned against his nephew. He was too friendly with his
nephew Fritz. When Fritz was inaugurated the night before, there were five couples; five
very close couples of his up there with him. By the time he started with state politics, I
didn’t get involved in his political life. We were up in the hotel. Anyway, we were all
going to dinner that night. And Fritz finally came from Charleston, and he walked in, he
�Bernard Warshaw
32
and Pat, and he had a different expression on his face. I said, “What’s wrong?” So I said,
“Come over here I want to talk to you in private.” We went out of the room; I said,
“What’s wrong with you?” He finally told me he was becoming Lieutenant Governor of
the state of South Carolina; he doesn’t have an office, a pencil, or a nickel in his pocket.
His uncle had changed all the locks on their law office in Charleston. Did he tell you
that? He doesn’t tell many people. He had no money. His uncle had been supporting
him, really, and he worked in the law office. He went back like I said to get some papers
or whatever; all the doors were locked. All the locks were changed. Anyway we had a
celebration that night; it was a very subdued one, because of him of course. He was
subdued. And the next day he was our lieutenant governor with no portfolio. No nothing.
He didn’t tell you that did he?
JB: He did not.
BW: Anyway maybe I shouldn’t. Maybe I.
JB: No, I think that’s a part of history.
BW: Well, he and I may not see each other frequently. I know he’s there and he
knows I’m here. And we do speak occasionally. I still call him one of my close friends.
He put me on the State development board. Before he became Governor before he
created the State Development Board, and he asked me to serve on a committee South
Carolina and Georgia building up the port to Savannah. I said, “Building up a port? Hell,
we don’t need all of that?”
He said, “I want you to go and listen and see what’s going on down there. I said
ok. I went down to a meeting, went down to another meeting. I came back. I reported to
him each time, and I said there’s no sense going. They were developing the ports of
�Bernard Warshaw
33
Savannah. We had the port of Charleston to worry about. After that he created the State
Development Board, and luckily I was one of the fifteen he put on there. Our chairman
was [Mr. Francis] Hipp--you know, the insurance guy in Greenville?
JB: Right.
BW: He was our chairman; we had a great group of people. And Fritz had done a
lot for the state. We created the TEC school system by the way—
JB: I’m aware of that.
BW: I was on that committee, and of course now most of the towns wanted a
college, so they created a two year college. We don’t need that; we need people to get
back and lay bricks. Everyone is not college material. In fact after I was done reading his
book I made a few comments. That was one of them to create a Tech school system
federally. These folks don’t want to create that. We have too many people flipping
hamburgers. So anyway Fritz and I have been very, very close. Again I say he knows I’m
here, and I know he’s there. Pat and I were very close friends, and as you know they were
divorced. He married this very fine lady named Peatsy. Too bad she’s not well. And
Fritz is now at MUSC and they created a good office for him. I knew that was going to
happen, because of my cousin who’s on the medical board, been there for thirty eight
years now. Melvin Berlinsky, ever heard of his name? He was one of the mainstays with
Fritz having an office there. Meanwhile Fritz saw it fit to have a chair named for my
cousin there at MUSC.
JB: Who was that?
BW: Melvin Berlinsky
JB: Okay.
�Bernard Warshaw
34
BW: Anyway all and all Jack I have had and I’m having a very interesting life. I
am going to give you one of my resumes before you leave just in case for whatever you
might need it. I am chairman of the Hospital board here. I’ve been on the Hospital board
for about two years and I was elected chairman now for eight years, I got reelected last
year. I have an undetermined term. So I’m going to be eighty-eight years old. I really
don’t want to give in, but there is going to come a day when I have to give that up. I’m
also deeply involved with the Veterans Nursing Home. I’ve been involved in that from
back in the political days when we were trying to get it. I understand there were seven
other counties that wanted that nursing home. That it’s backed by the Department of
Mental Health, the VA through the Governor’s office, and the veterans’ organization in
Washington. I happen to be an emeritus member of the Department of Mental Health. I
served there for twenty years. I had four five-year appointments started by Bob McNair.
I’m chairman of the Literacy Council, I’m on the Alzheimer’s commission, and I’m on
the roads and bridges commission. I can go on with a number of things. I have eight or
nine important meetings a month. Try to play golf a couple of times a week. My legs
keep giving me a fit. I don’t know if I can continue, I go to the gym two or three times a
week. I try to help those that I know are in need, and I help them and I do it. I go to speak
at different churches and schools, and I’m invited to the Baptist church and Episcopal,
Presbyterian Church. Whatever it is. I have a great life, knock on wood. My wife and I
are very fortunate even though she had a very bad bout with cancer. Some thirty five
years ago. The effects are still here. We have three daughters, one lives in Charleston,
one in Atlanta, and one in Florida, and-JB: Which one lives in Charleston?
�Bernard Warshaw
35
BW: Susan Garfinkle, her husband is Jerry Garfinkle the attorney with the
Intertec Corporation. He worked with Jerry Zucker; he was the lead in-house attorney. A
very interesting position, very responsible position. As you know Jerry died and his wife
is the CEO there. When I received my doctorate my good friend Leonard Fulghum
handed me my booklet there showing me I have a doctorate from The Citadel. I’ll tell
you a side incident that is of interest. General John, what was his name. The last general
we had.
JB: Grimsley.
BW: No, after Grimsly, then Admiral was there we dressed the admiral as well.
Grimsly was a customer at one time. Anyway we are getting lined up at the parade and he
said, “Looks like there is something on your mind.” I said, “There sure is, John.” He said
“What is it?” I said, “You see all my friends sitting on the front row?” He said bring
them up here, and sure enough there is a picture up there, on your left. He got my friends
to come and stand with me. Anyway, again I’m very fortunate. There is a picture there of
Bob McNair, John West, myself, and Fritz came here and I was telling you about coming
from J. P. Harrelson’s funeral. They all ended up here and Lois West took that picture;
no, Lois had the comment, Anne took the picture. Lois said, “Aw hell I remember you all
when…”
JB: (Laughing)
BW: We’ve never forgotten that, but I’m very fortunate and my friends and I try
to “pay back” my family and I’m sure yours owe a lot to our communities. We are
payback people. What else can I say to you, other than what I’ve already said to you?
�Bernard Warshaw
END OF INTERVIEW
Danielle Dunwald, November 3, 2008
SDK, November 18, 2008; March 12, 2009
JB, November 24, 2008; March 19, 2009
BW, December 1, 2008
36
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jack Bass
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bernard Warshaw
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 26 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Walterboro, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Bernard Warshaw, interviewed by Jack Bass, 1 October, 2008
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
World War, 1939-1945--Concentration campus--Liberation
Family-owned business enterprises
Description
An account of the resource
Warshaw was born on October 27, 1920. From an early age, he wanted to go to college at The Citadel. When his high school record seemed likely to derail his hope, direct appeal to Gen. Summerall got him in. After overcoming some early problems, Warshaw settled down and graduated in 1942. He received orders on graduation day to report on June 10, 1942, for active duty and soon was assigned to the 433rd automatic weapons battalion, an anti-aircraft unit. Shipped to Casablanca, on the Moroccan Atlantic coast, his unit was assigned a training and support mission until the July-August 1943 invasion of Sicily. After the conquest of Sicily, his unit joined the Allied invasion of Italy and advanced to the Cassino front where the attack stalled. Withdrawn from the Cassino front and sent to the Anzio beachhead, he was able to visit Rome after the breakout for one evening. Withdrawn once again, Warshaw’s unit left Italy to join the invasion of southern France, fighting from there into Germany. Warshaw was promoted to first lieutenant and to captain as the war progressed, but when asked he said that he had absolutely no interest in staying in the Army. The morning after the capture of the Dachau concentration camp, Warshaw’s colonel took him to see the camp. There they found the odor was such that “we could hardly stand it . . . piles and piles of bodies.” He opened one of camp’s four ovens where “Bones were still smoldering,” and the colonel handed him a camera and told him to take pictures, some of which are archived at the Jewish Heritage Collection at the College of Charleston. A retired merchant of men’s clothing, he resides in his home town of Walterboro, SC.
<br />With generous support from the Humanities Council of South Carolina (http://www.schumanities.org/), the Citadel Oral History Program collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans’ experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23422" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/136
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Colleton (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/af7fb9dec81657f801ee2ecf6dd7a590.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=Xc0e2gmIrn3xnNGA6jliqXZfolruJ%7EIYfv0Dw2CQDa2mydLdC7QQuQUleaDLjwaUxC5ITV7yNNRHGGSut6aGYjEjd7pYq3rDbyFE5vten-xxV0cYuAhip9qEAw2pxiuoKzP%7EN0lhvfbd6jVCxIGBXBijHkha%7Ela%7EQKJJL7s11S0mN1FR5YF8UgvhUwPSuSJCZ5sos%7E1UibDxpnFM%7Ev9SwVBhPH8sQi15VswDzMzY-M3FaR-3fS4tC62UbIt9bXyOyUwQokPCC1R6CBhr8feQXkY%7EClFBGGCLOmP%7EeWkz6a2KSNb2MmbXd9QMPYc2Al1B0QKlLP2kKZk6dnw0UUic4g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
7e2c8933c632d6e22c383dc6db786fc4
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – BILL BOWICK & DAVID BOUFFARD
Interviewee: Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
Interviewer: Shannon Hungerford
Interview Date: April 18, 2009
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 35 minutes, 16 seconds
Shannon Hungerford: Now it's running. So if you want to start, maybe just can
both just, like state your name, where you grew up, don't have to give me your birthdates.
Bill Bowick: Okay, good. (laughs)
David Bouffard: My name, (laughs) my name is David Bouffard, I grew up in
Milton, Vermont, which is a small town north of Burlington, Vermont, on Lake
Champlain about half an hour south of the Canadian border. And gosh, from there, I went
to school in Boston, and then to grad school in St. Louis, ended up in Washington, DC
and then New York, and that's where I met Bill. And then we ended up in London from
there, and then down here in Charleston. So, yeah.
SH: You've been all over.
DB: Yeah, all over, we get around. They're older. (everyone laughs) We're old
enough to, to do that.
BB: Yeah, we like to travel, so it's, moving around is part of-- but I'm, I'm Bill
Bowick, and I was actually born in Georgia, north of Atlanta in Cartersville, Georgia, I
think that's where it was.
SH: I know exactly where that is.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
2
BB: Yeah, okay. Well, my dad was a minister, so we moved some. We lived in
New Orleans for a little while when I was a kid, and South Georgia, and then we moved
to Signal Mountain when I was sixth grade, so I grew up there. And after I went to the
University of Tennessee in Knoxville. And then as soon as I graduated with all my
friends, we moved to the northeast, and I was in New York, and I lived there for fifteen
years. And I met David while I was working on a project. I met him on the subway,
'cause I had all my architectural drawings with me.
SH: Oh, that's such a cool story.
BB: Yeah, and then from there, we were, we'd actually already planned to move
to Charleston and open up something, a bakery, and that's when David got a chance to
work in London, so we moved over there, did that, and then--.
DB: Just for a year, yeah. And then came down here.
BB: Yeah. And, oh, and all of my mom's family used to like to bake a lot, and so
when I moved to New York to do architecture, I was always on the phone with them,
how do you make this or how do you make that? 'Cause I missed these things I used to
make, but nobody, I couldn't go to the store and buy them, you know, so I had to, to make
them. So, and then I think because, you know, if you're, I think of all design professions,
and sort of, but then, you're sort of all geared toward the same thing, really. And so as I
was baking, I look at the aesthetics of it, and how you do it, and the process and
everything. It's kind of all the same to me. So, you know, we had gotten to a point in our
careers where, you know, especially me, I needed to either commit to a firm or start my
own. And I thought, I don't know if I really want to do either of those things. So we
thought it would be interesting and fun to kind of do our own thing, and create our own
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
3
space, and bake, try this out, do it. So that's how we ended up there.
SH: Do you enjoy kind of owning your own time, being kind of like, well, not the
top, but the person who's controlling, you know what I mean?
DB: Making the decisions?
BB: Really like that.
SH: Yeah.
DB: Yeah, it is fun. Because we, we like to, you know, not just the baking but the
graphics, the, you know, publicity, however it's handled. The business side of it. It's all,
it's fun and it's different for us, I think, so it's all kind of a learning experience as well.
But it keeps things interesting, I think.
BB: 'Cause you're creating your whole environment. And you don't have, it's not
by committee. You know, like, if I want to do something, I'll just try it out and have fun
with it.
SH: I know, that's fun.
BB: Yeah, it is, yeah. Yeah.
DB: (laughs)
BB: Today is was mint icing on the chocolate chip cupcake. That, that was my--.
SH: Oh, did you try something different today?
BB: Yeah, I liked, I do stuff like that all the time. You know, people say a lot of
times, baking is so formulaic, and we just did something recently, we were talking about
the similarity between that and, like, if you've got a building made of concrete, you know,
you're got these foundations of building things you've got to contend with. But then once
you've got that, you can kind of do riffs on it, or variations.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
4
SH: Right, like once you know the amount of sugar to make something, then you
can play.
DB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah, exactly. So we play all the time. So that's the deal.
SH: Well, that was actually in my next question. Is there any, like, common
elements between architecture and baking that you find interesting?
DB: There are, actually. We just gave a lecture at Redux not too long ago on--.
SH: I'm sad I missed that.
DB: No, no, seriously. (laughs) But on, basically on the similarities between
baking and, and architecture. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's all a
process, and there are certain steps that you go through, and there are certain things that
you have to do to get to the end product, and it's all kind of developing, kind of the
structure, and then there's ornamentation or, you know, on a building it's fenestration. So
there are different ways that you can make this end product look, you know, so there's an
aesthetic you can achieve kind of through both baking and architecture.
SH: That makes sense.
DB: So it's, you know, we went into a little more depth than that. (overlap) But
that's kind of the basics of it, you know? It's like--.
BB: One of the things that you see every day in the bake shop, that was an
original, early concept that ties into that, is that we don't have a lot of decoration in the
bakery. We don't have lots of pictures or, like, art, you know, written things, like about
the product or anything. It's the, and the concept was that the, you know, in architecture
they say the hardware is the jewelry sometime, if you've ever heard that comment. But
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
5
we thought of the baked goods as the jewelry. They're the decoration. So every day, you
know, we think of something new and kind of make it look pretty, or, you know, what's
in season and all that sort of thing, so that's it.
DB: Yeah.
SH: Well, just soon as I walked in, and my eyes were drawn to the bright green, I
think, or like, your cookies. I mean, success, check it out, yeah.
BB: Thanks, thanks. It works, yeah.
DB: And we're trying to tie in kind of the whole concept of sustainability, you
know, which is hugely important in architecture and design, and also, we think, in
baking, as far as using local eggs and organic flours, and local produce or, you know,
fruits and all that good stuff. So, you know, try to bring that element in as well, I think,
just, you know, keep it local.
BB: In fact, the whole local thing is very appealing just as our business model,
also, because sometimes people will ask us, you know, or do we want to expand or have
others. And our hope is that really, other people in their neighborhoods will open up, you
know, bakeries and things. 'Cause that's the way it used to be, and it really should all be
local. Everyone should have a bakery they can go to.
SH: That would be so great, have like a butcher shop and a bakery and kind of go
down the row.
DB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah, it's, yeah, right. When we were living in London, there was this great
cheese shop there, you know? And they had all these little shops.
SH: Ooh, I bet that was so great.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
6
BB: It was fantastic. We used to love to go over to that lady. And she'd been in
Charleston, she did a demonstration here, maybe at Ted's or somewhere, I don't
remember where she had done it, but yeah.
SH: Yeah, that might be a cool idea, just making little bakeries. Is there any other
bakeries on this Cannon Street?
DB: No, not at the moment.
BB: There's not, but there used to be. Years ago there used to be one called
Bowinkle's, down the way. And we still get, it--.
DB: I think it was even before we got here.
BB: It was. It was. My dad is, my dad is originally from Charleston, and so
they've mentioned once. And there was another, a German bakery that was nearby, and
another one on King Street. And actually, just down the way on Cannon, I was looking at
an old map of Charleston one time, and there was another bakery there. So everything
used to be local. Charleston made like that.
SH: There used to be.
DB: Right, there used to be lots of bakeries, yeah. And so now there are more,
we're not the only one. It's (7:41) you know?
BB: Right, yeah, we have, there's some more. Charleston (7:43), so. I wish there
was some more bread being baked in Charleston. We don't really do, we do dessert bread,
you know, baked goods, and I love baked bread, but it's a, kind of a different, you know,
we would be up 24 hours a day if we did both. So we just focus on one. But it's delicious,
I just, there isn't enough of it, so.
SH: Yeah, kind of a different animal.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
7
DB: It really is, yeah, than dessert baking, yeah. Yeah, it's very different.
SH: To make the desserts, does one person have to get here at like five in the
morning and start baking things? Like, what's the typical day?
DB: We're usually up at, depending on how many orders each, you know, there
are each day, but usually between five or six, six-thirty at the latest, probably, we're in the
bake shop baking. And then it opens at eleven, so it takes that much time to, to get it
going. And actually, I'm still doing architecture, so at a certain point I leave, and Bill's
basically either on his own, or somebody else comes in and, and helps get prepped for the
day. And then we're in full swing until, like, six. And then its--.
BB: That's a great way to ease into the day, though, you know? 'Cause we come
in, David makes coffee, turn the oven on.
SH: That is nice.
DB: Yeah, listen to the, you know, NPR and the radio, and just kind of ease into
it. And then at the end of the day, there's the cleanup, you know, so you're doing dishes
maybe from six until seven, seven-thirty.
BB: It's a long day.
SH: Yeah.
BB: And, and then if it's, if it's a big day the next day, then you're prepping the
night before. So, you know, so it can be, it can be a pretty long day, but--.
DB: It's different, though than being in architecture, you know? You're either
interacting with just a few people, usually, or you're at your desk, or in small meetings.
But I like, I've always liked to talk to people and meet people, like we were saying
before. And so it's, it's more social, you know? So the day doesn't seem as long as it
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
8
might be, because we're kind of having fun sometimes, too.
SH: Yeah, it's not like an eight-thirty board meeting.
BB: Yeah, yeah, exactly, right.
DB: Yeah, yeah.
SH: Creating stuff, and talk to people, it sounds like a great job.
BB: It really, it is pretty good.
DB: I like it, too, you know?
SH: That's awesome. Okay, let's see, focus in, I'm asking you like a million
questions.
BB: Okay, no.
DB: That's, I enjoy it, actually.
SH: Maybe you've already answered this, but who or what inspired you to create
Sugar? Maybe a person, or just had an idea?
DB: Well, Bill inspired me, but-- (laughs) 'Cause it was really his, his, he had this
kind of idea, probably long before I met you, I mean, I think you'd always kind of
thought that it would be great to have a bakery.
BB: To do this kind of thing. And it--.
DB: And then so you had the idea, but, but you were inspired probably by your
mother or your grandmother?
BB: Mostly by, you know, there are a couple of different directions. You know,
there was my grandmother, certainly, and my mom. Both my aunts, actually, really bake.
And they've always made, you know, all the food from scratch, and my grandmother
always used to have a garden and the family would eat fresh stuff. And so through the
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
9
years, when everybody was making things out of a box, they always kind of saw that as
kind of silly, and made really good, delicious things. And I, I don't think it's even shorter,
really, to use stuff out of a box. Or, you know, it's pleasurable to cook, and that's one
thing they taught me. So, but you know, I also remember little stores in the South from
when I was growing up. Like, we would visit, when I was little, we didn't live in
Chattanooga, we'd visit my grandmother. And they would, they would go shopping, and
like, Miller's department store downtown use to have this, like, ladies' tea room. And I
remember this really, this homey feeling and being taken care of. And so those are
inspirations for how the store feels. You know, it should feel homey, but neat and clean,
and also a little modern. We didn't want it to be too kitschy; we wanted it to feel kind of
crisp and professional. And then the actual name turned out to be one of the hardest
things about the store. I thought it would come really quickly, but it took us a very long
time to figure out the name.
SH: I love the name.
BB: Thanks.
SH: It's very, it's crisp, what you just said.
BB: It's (11:53).
DB: Pretty simple, yeah. It kind of says what it is inside. (laughs)
BB: And it--.
DB: It's, it's the, it's what's in everything, basically.
BB: And it's a double, you know, it's, it has a double meaning, too. Because in the
South, it's also a term of endearment.
SH: Right.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
10
BB: So we got it from both ways, so that's why it's Sugar.
SH: Oh, that's cool, I didn't think about that.
DB: It's like, hey, Sugar.
SH: Double entendre, got it.
DB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah, it is, yeah.
SH: That's cool.
BB: Thanks.
SH: Nice, so. We already talked about kind of like what drew you to Charleston
after New York, just a good place to start a bakery. But kind of the next round of
questions is, what kind of bakery is Sugar? What kind of customers would come to
Sugar?
DB: That's interesting. Well, I guess what kind of bakery it is, it's something that
we want it to be its own thing, and that would be discovered by people. It wasn't
something that was necessarily going to put itself out there and try to be everything to
everybody.
BB: But it's approachable at the same time.
DB: Yeah, we wanted it to be friendly and neighborhoody and approachable. And
kind of, we wanted, basically, people to discover us and discover what we have to offer,
and then to, but for us to be able to focus on what it is we wanted to do as well. So I think
it appeals to a wide range of people, from kids to, you know, adults. I don't, it's, it's, you
know.
BB: A whole economic range, too. We got, actually, a lot of our business is South
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
11
of Broad, they kind of love it.
SH: Really?
BB: Because we do, yeah, I think it's because we do really personal things, and
they want things for their family, and that they can enjoy with their visitors come into
town that seems really Charleston. You know, a lot of the recipes we try to gear toward
local, like the Lady Baltimore cake. We do that 'cause it's a Charleston cake, you know?
DB: And I think some people really appreciate, you know, that it's homemade and
hand-made, and kind of custom made to a certain extent.
BB: Yeah, so, exactly. But we get, you know, South of Broad, we get girls from
Ashley Hall afterschool every day. We get--.
SH: Oh, that's right, that's--.
DB: You people, yeah.
BB: And the, lot of the families that have lived in this neighborhood for a long
time, like, and the kids at the Y and their families.
SH: I was just about to ask, yeah, it's so close.
BB: They've been a great, great neighbor, because they, the director actually
brings people over all the time and introduces them to us, you know?
SH: Oh, that's so nice.
BB: And, like, today was healthy kids day, so we made a special cookie that they
could come over and try a sample. And it was, so it was oatmeal raisin with chocolate
chips, you know? So, get a little bit of health--.
DB: Yeah, semi-healthy. (everyone laughs)
BB: And it's made with good ingredients also, so you know (overlap).
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
12
SH: No artifical, so--.
BB: Yeah, yeah.
DB: Yeah, exactly right.
SH: Who needs the sugar, right?
DB: We also wanted to appeal to our neighborhood, and I think we have great
neighborhood support and great neighbors, so that was, that's really nice.
BB: Yeah, we were really fortunate with that.
DB: Yeah, and not just the business community, but the local community, which
is really nice.
BB: A lot of people thought we would really, you know, try to get more with
tourism, and that has come, I guess, through the internet a lot. You know, people find us,
and, but really, in spite of that, we really don't promote it. In fact, we ask, a hotel, locally,
was wanting to really promote us, and we were kind of a little shy about that because we
want to be a local bakery, so--.
SH: I think that's great. It's something you don't hear every day, like, you know
(overlap) that you just put yourself out there, you want to stay true to what--?
DB: Exactly, that's what, that has been our, that's our goal.
SH: That's refreshing to hear, that's awesome. So you felt welcomed when you
moved in by the neighborhood?
BB: We really did.
DB: We did absolutely.
BB: And also you know, with David's and mine situation, you know, this type of
couple we really made a conscience decision coming to Charleston, you know (laughing)
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
13
because a lot of people here are really shy about it and or don’t put themselves out there-.
DD: That’s true yeah.
BB: So we made a conscience decision to just to be comfortable with ourselves
and to be open about everything.
DB: I think there was concern moving from New York, where you know you can
just be whatever, whoever you want to be. That we might have to kind of be a little more- and it hasn't been like that at all.
BB: Everyone, across the board, I have never heard a negative comment or one
unfriendly word. Which is a good thing. Speaks well for Charleston, for sure.
SH: It does certainly and I think that’s something cool about Charleston that you
might not find in the rest of the state, I don’t know how to say it.
DB: It is like a little enclave of much more socially, kind of--I don’t know what
the word is--progressive.
SH: Because Charleston kind of has a little bit of a reputation of not welcoming
New Yorkers--.
DB: Outsiders. Yeah.
SH: I think that that reputation has kind of been skewed because every person I've
talked to who is not from here has said, "I've felt welcomed."
DB: Yeah, I felt that way.
BB: You know when I was growing up and used to come visit my Dad's family
here, it was you know every person we would run into it was like, "This is your third
cousin," everybody was related--.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
14
SH: That's so funny.
BB: So our timing turned out, it was just luck, because Charleston has really
changed in the last five to seven years I would say. In a good way. You know it’s always
good for a city to get some new faces and I think that we're all here together having fun it
feels like. Like the art scene and stuff, it’s kind of burgeoning--.
DB: And there’s a good music scene.
SH: And do you still do Spoleto or are you connected with that?
DB: We do, yep.
BB: We had a gallery show with Jeffery Rhodes and Margo Kauffman where part
of the proceeds went to Spoleto.
SH: I always mispronounce it.
DB: Oh no! I think it's either way. Spoleto/Spoleto.
BB: That’s me; don't look to me for pronunciations! I'm telling you.
DB: Don’t look to him. He's from (?) Can’t say that here!
BB: We did a party last year for the Carolina Chocolate Drops, for that festival.
DB: Yeah we had the backyard kind of fixed up.
BB: That was fun! And you know we don't really overtly market ourselves and so
it just kind of turned out that doing things like special parties, also through architecture
and professionalism I think we've really kind of learned that it's important to give to the
community. So we’ve donated things to charitable things for parties and such and
actually a lot of people have actually found out about us through that so that was kind of
a surprise. We didn't expect that. It's been a good thing I think both ways.
SH: Yeah that’s a cool way for people to find out about you.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
15
Both BB and DB: Yeah, Yeah.
DB: And then the neighborhood, I'll just say the neighborhood, when we got here
has, well, has changed probably in the last five years as well. It's definitely, there's been a
lot of kind of growth in the neighborhood, even as far as housing, like, some of the
developments over on Morris Street and on the corner of Cannon and Calhoun were, or
Cannon and Coming weren't there. But just as far as businesses, now, we've seen like this
whole kind of neighborhood, like our neighbor over here, and the new--.
BB: Do you know, Lee Maygar makes hats, she's over here, she makes amazing
hats.
DB: Amazing hats.
SH: (overlap) (19:28)
BB: Is she open? Have you seen her?
DB: I just saw her open, I don't know that she's open for appointments today.
BB: We'll give you her number. You can call her and see sometime, 'cause she's
really cool.
DB: Just does amazing stuff. And now there's a new stationery store on this street,
and some restaurants and stuff.
BB: We're going to a party in a little while with Fuzzco, do you know that
couple?
SH: No.
BB: They’re over on Spring Street, it's a husband and wife, and they bought a
house, and they have a graphics, sort of advertising, PR company, and they're doing it out
of the house. So it's their shop and their home, kind of like we're doing.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
16
DB: This is becoming kind of a cool kind of live/work kind of community, I
think.
SH: Yeah, short commute, right?
BB: Right.
DB: Yeah, exactly.
BB: Highly recommended.
SH: Yeah, and like how many (20:10) a neighborhood type of restaurant can the
same feeling (overlap)--.
BB: Yeah, and he was a pioneer, he really--.
DB: Yeah, he was. When he first opened up, there was pretty much nothing in this
neighborhood, I don't think.
SH: Really?
DB: Yeah, he was.
SH: Not like (20:24).
DB: Yeah, it has, (Garona?) has changed.
SH: That's awesome.
DB: I think that helped, though, with people being very receptive.
SH: Mmm-hmm. Certainly. Shannon Hungerford: Well my next question and you
sort of already talked about the Lady Baltimore cake but I was gonna say do you have
any historical recipes on the menu, that historical in the sense of it’s an old family recipe
or it’s a very Charleston recipe?
BB: Right.
SH: What sorts of things would you have on the menu?
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
17
DB: Well other than Lady Baltimore which is very historical, I think the caramel
icing is from kind of family historical--.
BB: That actually comes from Chattanooga.
DB: Comes from Chattanooga, right.
SH: Oh, right.
DB: Even our yellow cake that we use we got from your mom--.
BB: And it’s an old-fashioned, it’s actually a 1-2-3-4 cake--.
SH: Oh yeah.
BB: Which is simple. I like things that are simple that rely on good ingredients.
The comparison I often make, with our sort of philosophy, approach to baking, is it’s like
Italian cooking. It’s not really hard but you just need good ingredients that are fresh.
SH: Right, because with good ingredients you automatically don’t have to
overdress it.
BB: Right
DB: Yep, Yep.
BB: And its one of the reasons why David was making fun of me because you
know I always talked about these old family recipes and stuff like that but my family’s
recipes tend to be like: well you take a bunch of apples and sugar to taste and you put in
some butter so they’re sort of guidelines, you know with what you’re kind of trying to
do--.
DB: And I like the chemistry of it all, I like: OK it’s this, it’s this, it’s this, you
put it together like this and it comes out like this--.
SH: Right, right. 1.5 milliliters of this--.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
18
DB: Exactly.
BB: That’s precision but like the sugar cookies that I do, those are ones my mom
used to make when I was growing up.
SH: Oh.
BB: And the Lady Baltimore actually both my grandmother here in Charleston
and my mom in Chattanooga, grandmother in Chattanooga used to make Lady Baltimore
cakes, and nobody did and I thought that would be a great reason to make it because we
were trying to kind of create this sense of you know point of origin from where things
were kind of coming from, and so I like the idea of things being a little bit hazy, you
know and so the idea that it’s this kind of mythical cake and--.
SH: Yeah, from the book right?
BB: Yeah and its named Lady Baltimore but it’s for Charleston, yeah it’s from the
book, so I just thought for all those reasons that would be a good one to have.
SH: Is it popular?
BB: It is actually.
DB: It is.
BB: We have a lot of people come by on, we make it on Thursdays, so yeah--.
SH: Oh ok, that’s nice ( ).
DB: And you can buy it in a cupcake form as well which is good because I think
Lady Baltimore is very sweet and so a little goes a long way. So--.
BB: Yes, yeah (laughs).
DB: So the cupcake is a good amount of Lady Baltimore, at least from my
standpoint. But it is very, it is good--.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
19
BB: Yeah, and we do cakes and stuff, the cakes and pies, the larger things are
only to order, you know and so I was really pleased when like this last Christmas, we did
a lot of Lady Baltimore cakes for people’s Christmas Eve dinners and such.
SH: Oh.
BB: So that was great, the Charlestonians you know were coming to get their
cake, so I thought that was kind of cool.
SH: That is really cool, Christmas Eve dinner.
BB: Yeah.
SH: And on the website, I saw something, the Huguenot torte--.
BB: Torte, uh huh, yep.
SH: Can you describe that a little bit? I’ve never had a Huguenot--.
BB: Its kind of like, we make this one with chocolate, you know it’s got walnuts
and apples. And we do a couple of different variations on that. Which, an interesting
thing, is you know David’s family has some French ancestry and he has this little book
that he made--.
DB: Not necessarily French Huguenots but hey--. [Laughter}.
BB: Right the whole, but I just thought it was kind of interesting because we were
looking through there’s this thing they call, what do they call it? Apple brownie or
something like that?
DB: Yeah, there’s an apple.
BB: And it ended up being really similar to the Huguenot torte so I thought that
was kind of interesting--.
SH: Isn’t that neat?
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
20
DB: So there might be a connection there--.
BB: Yeah, it just seemed like yeah--.
DB: We’d have to research that further. (laughs). But for now--.
SH: We’re working on that.
BB: And one of the reasons I had that, is because this fellow who grew up in
Charleston--.
DB: They’re cousins--.
BB: Came in and was asking if we were gonna do that and so I thought well that’s
the reason to do it right there because somebody is wanting that that they have a memory
of.
SH: So someone just requested that?
BB: Yeah, actually some of our biggest sellers have originated with cakes that
people ask us to make. Like somebody who normally had a woman that made their cakes
for them she couldn’t do a cake and she did a lemon curd cake with buttercream frosting.
So I made that--.
SH: That sounds really good.
BB: I made it our own. That’s a Frankenstein recipe I call it because I use one
cake recipe and then I got the lemon curd recipe from somewhere else and then I kinda
whittled together, you know the icing--.
DB: And there it is--.
BB: (laughs). So that’s a Sugar recipe, I guess you call it--.
DB: A star is born--.
SH: That is hilarious. I have to write that down. Frankenstein cake.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
21
BB: We should just call it that shouldn’t we? That would be funny.
DB: No I think that really detracts from its appeal. (laughs).
BB: We could do it at Halloween. (laughs).
DB: Let’s see. Frankenstein or lemon? (laughs).
SH: That is really funny. Oh gosh. Ok well so would you consider the Lady
Baltimore maybe the most Charleston recipe on your menu? If not, what would you
consider the most Charleston?
BB: I think it is.
DB: I think so, yeah just given that it’s kind of a unique you know cake to this
area or originated here and that probably most of our other stuff you can find other in
other places.
BB: Yeah, or variations--.
DB: Or variations therein and I had never heard of a Lady Baltimore cake before
until you kind of brought it up. (laughs).
BB: See, well.. (laughs).
DB: I come from a non-baking family, so--.
SH: Right, right.
BB: There are other things that I remember eating growing up that we don’t make
but some of them are just really labor-intensive like there’s these sands which is like you
know pecan and kind of like--.
SH: Oh yeah, the sands, the sandies?
BB: Yeah.
DB: Yep.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
22
BB: And they used to make those a lot here but they just take me forever to make,
I’m sorry I can’t make them for everyone else--.
SH: Right, you have so many other things on your menu.
BB: Right, yeah, enough is enough.
SH: Yeah.
DB: But that is definitely, yeah that’s got to be the most Charlestonian recipe.
BB: Yeah, but there, and there are a lot of other recipes that we want to try. Like
we recently, I had this recipe I've been wanting to do for a banana cake, and I did that.
And so another person had, like, somebody gave me a recipe for a lavender pound cake.
Another friend of David's gave him a hundred-year-old family recipe for blackberry jam
cake.
DB: Yep.
BB: I haven't even tried those.
DB: Yeah, but now that came from Cincinnati, so I wouldn't call it a Charleston
connection. (laughs) I mean, they live in Charleston now, but--.
SH: You can (overlaps).
DB: But if we really, you know, traced it back to it, so yeah, place of origin, right.
BB: Listen, it's delicious, we'll make it.
DB: It has no Charleston connection.
SH: That's Charleston, taking things from other places and making them your
own.
BB: For sure, it's a port city.
DB: Well, there you go, it's true, that's true.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
23
SH: Port city, there you go. That is too funny. Well, those sound really good,
lavender pound cake? Wow.
BB: Yeah, my friend Julia gave me that one. It's pretty too, you cut into it, and
this, yeah.
SH: It does sound pretty. I bet it smells good.
BB: It smells really fragrant, yeah.
SH: Would you say that history at all has contributed to your success, or maybe
the kind of historical side of your recipes draws people into the store a little more?
BB: I think so.
DB: I think so.
BB: Like I mentioned the Lady Baltimore; people are wanting that because it has
this sense of history with it. We do get a lot of visitors to this city who and they’re
anxious to try that because it’s a Charleston cake.
DB: That’s right. They’re in Charleston, they came to Charleston to see the
history, the buildings, the architecture, and then they also want to try things that are
Charleston like She Crab Soup, and Lady Baltimore. And they do their research I think
on the internet to kind of find out what it is that’s local and has some kind of connection.
BB: Another thing like that is the Buttermilk Pie. That’s another one.
DB: That’s true, Buttermilk Pie. I think also just the shop itself kind of has some
nostalgic kind of appeal to people so that kind of gets back to their history, maybe where
they’re from or things that they’re experienced in their lives.
SH: That’s interesting, so kind of the out-of-towners are more drawn to that
historical side of it.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
24
BB: I think maybe so.
DB: Maybe, although there are definitely locals who come into get Lady
Baltimore who like it because it’s something that they had when they were growing up
here.
BB: Yeah, actually there were maybe two or three groups of people this week,
where one lady said she maybe hadn’t had Lady Baltimore cake since she was a kid. You
know so.
SH: Okay, last question. Like I'm giving a quiz, I'm sorry.
BB: I felt like, I felt like (overlap).
DB: Yes, a C (overlap). (everyone laughs) Let me change my answer. D.
SH: What advice, as successful businessmen, figures, what advice would you give
to someone that's starting a business in Charleston 2009? What advice would you give
them?
BB: Be true to yourself. I mean, that would be mine.
DB: Yeah, I think--.
BB: 'Cause if it's coming from within you, you're going to have fun with it, and I
think people will respond to that.
DB: Yeah, I think that's, that's a good one, good learning to develop, to, you
know, kind of develop your concept and then to, I don't know, see it through.
BB: Which, and yeah, stick with your concept.
DB: Stick with your, yeah. Have a plan, too. (laughs) That can't hurt. But--.
SH: That's reasonably good advice.
DB: But I think the other thing is just not to try, not to try and be everything to
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
25
everybody, but to, you know, focus on what you're good at, and what your core kind of
values are, and what your core business wants to be, and kind of to exploit that, and just
to really--.
SH: Not to be everything to everyone. That's just such good advice just overall.
BB: You know, you know, unless you're Wal-Mart or, you know, or something.
(laugh) Like, you're trying to carry, but--.
DB: We didn't have those resources, so.
SH: Yeah, I think that's good advice.
BB: And I think that's something that we try to do, like when we think about,
when people say, you know, have you thought about doing bread, 'cause lots of people
come in and will say that. And we're like, well, you know, we're just not necessarily
bread bakers. It's not our expertise, it's not what we've kind of focused on and kind of
developed, you know?
DB: We recommend, we recommend other bakeries to people all the time.
SH: Oh, that's nice.
BB: Yeah, yeah, like--.
DB: 'Cause we want them to get what they're looking for and be happy with it, so.
BB: If they want a very, kind of, highly stylized wedding cake or something like
that, we're just not the, the place for that, so we'll send them to, you know, other places.
But we do do our own kind of very simple versions that can be used as wedding cakes.
But if it's something that's, you know, extremely, you know, got to--.
SH: Right, you're not going to drop everything and spend the day on a wedding
cake.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
26
DB: Right, exactly, and kind of use, yeah, 'cause our fondant, which we don't
necessarily use, so.
BB: Yeah, we just make our simple little cakes and we keep 'em. Like I did one
cake, the lady was using for her wedding on the beach. So it was a white cake with raw
sugar, looked kind of sandy, and that was it, you know?
SH: Oh, that is cool.
BB: And, like, we did one for another lady. We, I really like the concept of using
flowers, you know, because you can do seasonal things, or you can do, like we could use
camellias or things that are associated with the city. And David also has a friend that
went to architecture school, and we've, a couple of times we've used him for these, he
makes custom flowers out of sugar, and so--.
SH: Oh, wow.
DB: Sugar paste flowers, yeah, that are very, like, detailed.
SH: That is (overlap) yeah, that's cool.
BB: So that's the way we kind of make, you know, work with what we've got, to
not be something else, to make something that they're happy with, you know? So.
DB: Yeah, and I think all that just comes from, you know, traveling around and
you get to these places, and you just find these little local hole in the walls, or whatever
that, you know, shops that specialize in something, and it just, those are the places you
want to go back to, you know? So that's kind of what we want to, we want people to want
to come back.
SH: They might try to come here (33:06). (everyone laughs)
DB: Yeah, yeah.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
27
BB: Exactly.
SH: That's great advice, that's really good advice. Okay, I lied, this is the last
question. (overlap) Bonus, this is extra credit.
BB: This is a bonus question.
DB: Oh, okay, this is make, it's not make or break.
SH: How do y'all stay in shape working in a bakery, I mean, come on.
DB: (laughs) That is sad.
BB: That is, it's (33:30).
DB: Nope, that's--.
BB: Well, the Sugar diet is to stay on your feet all day and be too busy to eat
lunch.
DB: Right.
BB: So, we used to jog a lot, and we really love running. It's just, we don't have
time.
DB: No, there's not been time for that.
BB: So we really miss it, you know, yeah.
DB: Right now it's just lack of food, right. But the other thing is--.
SH: Oh my God! (laughs)
DB: Right, we don't have any, no, but the other thing is, when you're around this
stuff all day, and you're testing, you know, little bits and pieces throughout the day--.
BB: A little goes a long way.
DB: Yeah, you don't really have a craving for a big chunk of pie or, big, you
know, piece of cake or whatever at the end of the day.
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
28
SH: That makes sense, if you're making it all day, you're probably like, oh, I just
want a steak. Like, you know.
DB: Right.
BB: I do, I crave potroast--.
DB: Yeah, yeah, right, I want savory stuff.
BB: But we taste our things and make sure they're tasty, you know, like they're
supposed to be. But a little light, here, something, (34:19).
DB: Goes a long way. And then, you know, when you go out to eat you're like--.
SH: (laughs) I don't want anything.
DB: I don't want any baked goods. (laughs)
BB: We, we were at (34:25) recently, and somebody was apologizing for not
using, they, somebody else had offered to do some things, and I'm like, I'm happy to have
something that someone else, you know, made. It's fun, and it's kind of, you try
something different, you know? So.
DB: Absolutely.
BB: Actually, you know, the thing about living here next to the shop, and working
here all day, and you can see we have long hours. A lot of times, when it's night, it's like,
well, let's go somewhere, you know, out of our block. Because otherwise I'm just here all
the time.
SH: Yeah, kind of holed up.
DB: Oh, yeah, that is holed up.
BB: Yeah, with our little compound here. (everyone laughs)
SH: It's been great, (34:58).
�Bill Bowick & David Bouffard
BB: Thanks.
SH: I hope to write a book on this Sugar diet.
DB: Oh, yeah.
BB: I like that, it's good. (everyone laughs)
DB: There you go. I don't know that it's really the healthiest way to go, but
anyway.
SH: Well, thank you so much, again.
DB: Thank you.
BB: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW
Matt Allbritton
March 11, 2010
KG, March 25, 2010
SW, October 20, 2010
29
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Shannon Hungerford
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bill Bowick
David Bouffard
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
35 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Bill Bowick and David Bouffard, interviewed by Shannon Hungerford, 18 April, 2009
Subject
The topic of the resource
Bakery employees--United States
Cooking-American--Southern style
Gays--Southern States--History
Description
An account of the resource
“Sugar” is a bakery located on Cannon Street in downtown Charleston, S.C. that was founded by Bouffard and Bowick in November of 2007. Bowick, a native Tennessean, and Bouffard, a native of Vermont, have replaced an old vegetable stand with a new sweet shop. Both men worked in New York as architects, but moved to Charleston twelve years ago to pursue their dream of baking. In this interview, Bowick and Bouffard discuss their career backgrounds and inspirations, and how their background in architecture relates to the process of baking. They also discuss family connections to Charleston and local cuisine, the relationship between history and Charleston history in recipes, and how customers are attracted to the historical side of certain treats. An openly gay couple, Bowick and Bouffard also comment on the warm welcome they received upon moving into the neighborhood and what it says about how Charleston has changed in the last decade.
<br /><span>Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation’s prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.</span><br /><br /><h3><strong><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23442" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></strong></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Working Charleston
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-04-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/137
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/98c6d2cf5a7fdf77e983c74a0556922b.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=DYVjnO%7Eu6F659JY0bMXc-OZjGo-gsyAM6aldjB5a6NSLGYWybkLe4VCG3wBldDwA3CAkQDRtt%7EpzZ1ntcwUsTpgTlBR83AkgfFStf4C50Eq7OuZq5zes3pfywdWmh3BcjfgznTG0rsdm8tcM-JuS5MZJE7Iy0zlBNguMAa1mXQXtDKUsy%7EVMpL2W-%7Epd221IxEQ8cHTDqHheNsxL%7ETSvUcmF3MK4R04YLm7nhlU1fNlNqPudDgxJ2facJiKx3tCSyEOm49YzzY0ARLXww-os3mdtFfwBp6fJV4JAJG02hKekGmwN5Ysj7WA2G1jLQuII2oTHWB9ymgJzVa90sjSpXg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
0a1765c3a0e13cb9de75e7bb8e52d0a5
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT--BOBBY RICHARDSON
Interviewee: BOBBY RICHARDSON
Interviewer: KERRY TAYLOR and JOSEPH CLYBURN
Interview Date: November 5, 2013
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 79 minutes
BOBBY RICHARDSON:--field at 7:00. I wondered why I was meeting him on
the field. And so I got there and he said, “You’re leading the chant today.” We had a
chant before every game--Gamecocks, Gamecocks.
Interviewer: That’s awesome.
BR: I said, “It’s a good thing you didn’t tell me. I wouldn’t have come.”
KT: (00:00:13) It’s in perfect condition.
INT: And then, I think my grandma got me this when I was in high school. And I
had Brooke Shields sign it, so you're number two of the--.
BR: Is she on here?
INT: No. She’s--.
BR: I was starting to say, if she is, (Holy, man?).
KT: I thought you were going to say Stengel.
INT: Yeah, so I got her. I always thought she was a babe.
BR: I agree. I agree with you.
INT: So, I was like, I’ve got to get something.
BR: Frank Crosetti was there forever. He actually ran the ball club. Stengel ran
the press, Jim Turner ran the pitchers and Frank ran the ball club.
�Bobby Richardson
KT: Art Ditmar, of course, opened the ’60 Series.
BR: That’s why Stengel got fired.
KT: Exactly, some controversy about that.
BR: You follow it real close, I can tell already, real close.
KT: This was a significant part of my growing up.
INT: And then, I have a specific page.
BR: OK. Did you want it on the front here, or where did you want it? Inside?
INT: On the front, inside, whatever is more comfortable.
KT: Someday I’ll have to bring in (00:01:34)
INT: Oh, man. I feel like I’m so far away.
KT: I’ve got Satchel Paige (00:01:40) Seventy-six, he was sitting in the stands in
a White Sox (00:01:47).
KT: They activated him when? He actually pitched in the seventies. (00:01:52).
INT: He did?
BR: Yeah. They brought him in for a one-day deal.
INT: I got really into that.
BR: I batted against him in an old-timer’s game one time.
INT: Did he taunt you?
BR: He didn’t talk to me, but he did a step.
INT: And then waited?
BR: Then threw the ball. I was way out in front.
INT: Yeah, he did that to Josh Gibson a couple of times (Oh God, for sure?)
Kansas City Monarchs, I’ve met a couple of those guys.
3
�Bobby Richardson
4
KT: But yeah, he was just sitting there, and my mom recognized him (00:02:31).
INT: This is really awesome. I’m actually really excited. I’m super-excited. I did
some homework.
BR: Well, you’d have to, because I’ve been retired almost fifty years.
INT: Yeah, it’s been a while.
BR: This is the fiftieth anniversary of the Dodgers Series.
INT: That’s right. And I actually do have a question. This is a weird request, and
you can--I guess, Dr. Taylor, you can let me know if this is weird. But I found your
closing remarks when you were leaving in ’66, and I wanted to see if you can possibly
reiterate them one more time.
BR: I’ve got to see what they were.
INT: This is just--like, towards the end, if you could say that, I think that would
be hopefully not too corny.
BR: I remember them just like that. Can I hold onto those? You go (00:03:34).
INT: It was October second.
BR: October second, ’66?
INT: Yes, sir. You were thirty-one.
BR: Thirty-one years old? I played in my first old-timer’s game, I was still thirtyone.
INT: Really? That’s awesome.
KT: Old-timer, huh? We’ll give people one or two more minutes and see who else
shows up here.
INT: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I put this on Facebook and had a few people
�Bobby Richardson
5
asking me where it’s going to be. So, hopefully we have more people coming. This
doesn’t really happen every day. You’re pretty local. Sumter’s not too far away.
BR: You weren’t down here, but I’d forgotten what year. It’d be probably in the
‘60s. Mendel Rivers was still living. And I had a Greater Issues series down here. And I
was invited by him to come down and speak to the Greater Issues series.
KT: We had your photograph digitized (00:04:34).
BR: Is that right? Okay. I remember one of the things. I’ll share it with you a little
later. One of the things I said to them, I told them about a story at West Point that
happened. The Yankees would go up and play an exhibition every year. Yogi would read
the rules of the day. That was funny.
KT: Now, you weren’t there when Murderer’s Row was there (00:05:04)
BR: That would have been--I’m assuming we’re talking about Babe Ruth, Lou
Gehrig? I was there when we had what we called Murderer’s Row, but it was Mickey
Mantle and Roger Maris and Yogi Berra and Elston Howard and Bill Skowron. And I
was somewhere down there. In fact, in 1960--well, we aren’t talking yet, are we? Are we
on--.
KT: Yeah, let’s just go.
INT: Just go ahead and start?
KT: Yeah. Finish the story and then Cadet Clyburn can (00:05:34).
BR: In ’61, Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth’s home run record with sixty-one home
runs. Mantle didn’t play the last three weeks of the season. We were all pulling for
Mantle to be the one to break Babe Ruth’s record because he’d grown up in the Yankee
farm system. Roger had been traded in. But on the last day of the season he had sixty-
�Bobby Richardson
6
one.
Thirty-five years later they had a reunion of the ’61 Yankees. And they made a
sweatshirt of the starting lineup and how many home runs they hit. And we had three
catchers on that club but no DH that hit over sixty home runs. That would have been
Elston Howard, Yogi, and John Blanchard. And Roger had sixty-one, Mickey had fiftyfour, some of the others had thirty. I had three that year, and I was embarrassed to wear
that sweatshirt. I gave it to my wife. That’s it.
KT: Yeah, take it away.
INT: Ready to go? All right.
KT: This will pick you up fine. If you can just--it doesn’t need to be overbearing,
but that’s a good distance.
INT: All right. Actually, what’s today’s date?
KT: Today is the fifth.
INT: The fifth? Awesome. Ready?
KT: I had already turned it on, so it should be.
INT: Oh, it’s already on? Fantastic. Cool beans.
KT: Go ahead.
INT: All right. It’s the November 5th, 2013. My name is Joseph Clyburn, and I’m
here today with Bobby Richardson. Would you please state your full name and place of
where you were born and the date?
BR: Full name is Robert C. Richardson. Clinton is my middle name. And I was
born August 19th, 1935, in Sumter South Carolina, not with a P, just S-U-M-T-E-R,
South Carolina.
�Bobby Richardson
7
INT: And you’ve had a pretty illustrious career. You’ve had a number of awards
that you’ve received. You’ve met tons of people. Would you please explain to everyone
just kind of how you got your start, how you got interested in baseball in the first place?
BR: You know, it’s really interesting, but I went out for the high school baseball
team when I was a freshman. And I got cut from the team. I was also playing basketball,
and we were in tournament play, so we were two weeks late going out for the high school
team. There was a big catcher by the name of Ladson Cubbage. He later coached at
Wofford and some other schools in the state.
And after three days I got cut but he made the team. I told him that he made the
team because he could move the batting cage by himself. He didn’t laugh at that. But I
went out for the American Legion team that summer, and we won the state
championship, regional championship. And we were playing in Charlotte, North Carolina
against Richmond, Virginia. And the winner of that last game would go to the American
Legion World Series in Omaha, Nebraska.
And before that game they took us out to see a film. Now, the name of the film
was Pride of the Yankees, the story of Lou Gehrig. You two would remember it. They
wouldn’t. But Gary Cooper played the part of Lou Gehrig in that film. And I just thought,
man; that is the finest organization I’ve ever heard of. I’d like to be a part of that.
It just so happened the next year the New York Yankees had a farm club that had
spring training in Sumter, South Carolina. Mayo Smith was the manager of that, and he
came out and watched our high school team play. I made the team that year. He came
over to me after the game and said, when you graduate from high school, I’ll see to it you
have a chance to sign with the Yankees.
�Bobby Richardson
8
He kept his word. We kept in touch. And then, at seventeen, the day I graduated
from high school, I was given the opportunity of signing with twelve of the sixteen Major
League clubs. There were eight in the National, eight in the American. There was no draft
at that time. And so, you could sign with anybody. And I didn’t think it might be harder
to make the Yankees. My heard had been set on the pinstripe all those years. And so I
signed at seventeen, the day I graduated, with the New York Yankees.
I was given a four-day trip to New York to work out with the Yankees. We had a
fellow that owned the Coca-Cola bottling company. He had a private plane. He said I’m
going to fly you to New York. I said I’ve never been on a plane. Can we go any other
way? We took the train from Sumter to Florence to New York, checked into the Hotel
New Yorker, took a cab out to the stadium, and for four days I worked out with names
I’ve been reading about--Mickey Mantle, Phil Rizzuto.
And then I was sent down to work my way back up through the farm system. I
spent two years in the minor leagues. I played at Binghamton, New York, Denver,
Colorado, joined the Yankees at nineteen. And then, the Yankees won the pennant nine
out of the first ten years that I played. So, we were in World Series competition every
year but 1959. And that’s when your professor’s love won that year, the Chicago White
Sox.
KT: White Sox.
INT: Now, did you--when you first started playing baseball--I read, was it the
P15s?
BR: P15s.
INT: Post 15s? You went to your first game with your father, right?
�Bobby Richardson
9
BR: Yes.
INT: Can you tell me a little bit about him?
BR: Well, my dad was a hard-working man that loved baseball, and they tell me
he was a good ballplayer. But because he worked he didn’t have a chance. But his desire
was for me to play professional baseball, or at least to have a chance to play professional
baseball. He was a very quiet man. He’d come to the games. You’d never know he was
there. He’d sit down the left-field bleachers and wouldn’t say anything, never was
critical, ever, with me. Just after the game, the only thing he’d say, “Good game” or
something like that.
If I hit a home run, he probably would say, “You hit that ball good.” I didn’t hit
too many of those. But he loved baseball, and I think the thrill of his life was the fact that
I was playing for the New York Yankees. He only saw me play one game, and it’s funny
but the program that was brought today was when the Yankees were playing the
Milwaukee Braves in the World Series. That was in ’57. We lost in ’57, but in ’58 we
came from behind and won the Series.
And my dad saw me play one game in ’58. I played third base. Gil McDougald
was our regular third baseman, but before the game that day he went up to our manager,
Casey Stengel, and said, “ I just don’t feel good. I feel like I’m too close to the hitter at
third base. Let Richardson play third. It doesn’t matter where he plays. And let me play
second.” He said, “OK.”
So I played third base, didn’t have a ground ball or a popup or anything. And I
think I went 0-for-3 against Warren Spahn. And that’s the only game, because of his
health, that he ever saw me play. But he saw numerous games on television. Back in
�Bobby Richardson
10
those days the Yankees were on television just about every Saturday. Dizzy Dean and
Pee Wee Reese were the announcers, and so he saw me play a lot. But a great
relationship that lasted through the ’63 Series when he had a stroke and went on to be
with the Lord.
INT: And, I read that your dad didn’t initially want you to be a--you weren’t
supposed to be a second baseman. You wanted to be a shortstop, right?
BR: Yes.
INT: And that was because of Phil Rizzuto?
BR: Well, that’s right. I played shortstop all through high school and through
American Legion ball and even in the minor leagues. But when I got to New York, Casey
Stengel, our manager, said we’ve got Mr. Rizzuto. You’d better find a new position. So I
moved over to second base in a hurry. Jerry Coleman, who was a second baseman, taught
me how to make the double play. And so, I was able to make that and make the transition
real good.
INT: Fantastic. So far, what I’ve got on you, your stats pretty much speak for
themselves. You’ve had 1,432 hits. You averaged .266, had thirty-four homers, including
that big grand slam, which was really nice. I saw a video of that and loved it. You’ve had
390 RBIs. And out of the twelve years that you’ve been playing you only had 243
strikeouts. Twenty a year is not bad if you’re playing--now they’re playing, what, one
hundred and something games now?
BR: One hundred sixty two. Well, no, you’re right, much more with the playoffs
now.
INT: Yeah. So each award that you’ve been given--you were an All-Star, three-
�Bobby Richardson
11
time World Series champion, Gold Glove award--how did all that affect you? Did you
have just more press than you could imagine? Were you a hometown hero when you
came back?
BR: Well, you’ve got to remember I was playing on a great ballclub that had won
so many times--nine out of ten while I was there. And we had some real stars. Yogi
Berra, some of you might have been around too, has seen his commercial on television. I
was with him the other day in New York, and I asked him, I said, “How much did they
pay you for that commercial?”
Aflac was the one that they were doing. They were in a barbershop, and he was
getting a haircut. And they had a trainer there and three ducks. The trainer would blow
his whistle; the ducks would stop on command. He told me all about that. He told me
about the lunch breaks. And then I said, “Well, tell me this. Did they pay you one
hundred thousand dollars? He did like that. Two hundred thousand? He did like that
again.” We found out it was a quarter of a million dollars that he made. And they
renewed it over again, too.
But he didn’t think I understood it because he thought I thought the ducks don’t
really talk. And so he told me this, “You know, those ducks don’t really talk?” And, of
course, they put it in later, and somebody’s voice was there. But he thought I thought-well, never mind.
But to answer your question, I was a, I want to say, average player on a great
ballclub. I did make five consecutive Gold Gloves as a fielder. Hitting, I still have a lot of
records that still stand, one that we’re going to show maybe.
INT: Yeah, I have a few of those. Now, I’ve got to ask, because I can’t imagine
�Bobby Richardson
12
being you were, what, nineteen, stepping on the field for the very first time? What was
that like?
BR: Well, actually, when I was seventeen and worked out, they told me to put on
a uniform and go out and field some ground balls with the regulars before their ballgame.
And they said after you field some ground balls, come up to the cage and take some
swings, batting practice, with the regulars. I fielded the ground balls and then I came up
and stood around the cage and watched Hank Bauer Mickey Mantle, and Yogi Berra.
And finally Mickey came over from behind and said, “Come on kid.” I wasn’t
about to step in front of one of those. He said, “Take some swings.” And it started a
friendship that lasted a lifetime. And I’ll go into that detail later. But we had a little place
together in Boone, North Carolina at Grandfather Mountain. He came to my home in
Sumter on numerous occasions, and we had a close friendship.
But to answer your question specifically about the first game I played, I was in
Denver. Gil McDougald got hit by a line drive, and I was flown in from Denver to New
York to play in the next day’s game. I spent my flight up from Denver to New York
talking with a lady by the name of--I’ve forgotten her first name, but it was Johnny
Pesky’s wife. If you’re a Boston Red Sox fan, you know they have the Pesky Pole in
right field. He was a star player for the Red Sox all those years.
So, my comments to her were asking questions. What will it be like? What will it
be like? But sure enough, when I walked out on the field for the first time, it was an
awesome thrill. You come through the dugout, you walk out, and you can see all the
buildings in the background. It’s a massive stadium that at that time was probably seating
75,000 or something like that.
�Bobby Richardson
13
And so, it was tremendous. My hometown probably had ten thousand at that time.
And so, to walk into--it was filled to capacity. And the thing I remember most is I was
playing second base, and I got a base hit. And I stole second base, somebody walked, and
Yogi Berra hit a three-run homer and we won the game three to one. So, as I look back
now, that was probably one of the special thrills of my life, that first game that I played as
a Yankee.
INT: Absolutely. Your first year, becoming an All-Star in ’57, and the followed
by seven more--there was another one in ’59, there were two in ’62?
BR: We played two games in 1962, the only time they did that. The money from
the All-Star game goes to the pension plan for players. And they tried it, but it didn’t
work out. It was just--fans weren’t interested in two all-star games, just one.
INT: Right. And then, ’63, ’64, ’65 and ’66.
BR: And then I retired.
INT: You’re just full of colors. And then your first World Series in ’58, I mean, I
can hardly even speak right now because I just think that’s so awesome. I grew up in a
baseball family.
BR: Well, some of you remember the name of Hank Aaron. That’s who we were
playing against, Hank Aaron and Eddie Mathews. Are you an Atlanta Braves fan?
A: Before the Rays established, I was a Braves fan. (00:18:37).
BR: Absolutely. He and I kind of started out together. I played against him in
spring training and then, of course, in the World Series. We were also good friends. He
fought for me one time. That’s a long story and a different time, but we had an interesting
incident. He wrote it up in Guideposts magazine as a religious experience, but he just
�Bobby Richardson
14
confronted a guy that was giving me a hard time. He picked him up with his right hand,
hit him with his left hand about seven times and said, “Get out of here.” And he did get
out of there.
INT: What kind of dynamic would you say that you had with Roger Maris and
Mickey Mantle? I know you were closer, I think, with Mickey versus Roger, but I know
you guys had a really interesting relationship.
BR: Actually, I was close with both of them. Let me just talk about Roger first.
Roger was traded in from Cleveland to New York, from Kansas City to New York. And
the reason I was so glad to see him come on board is because he was the very best in the
league at breaking up the double play. And since I was the second baseman, he just had a
way of sliding into the second baseman and knocking him out into right field. He was a
great football player growing up.
I would change my whole way of making the double play when he was on first
base. And so, I was glad to have him as a teammate. He was a very quiet person. He was
a good family man, but just a tremendous hitter. And he was a dead pull hitter, and
Yankee Stadium is 296 down the right-field line, so the field was just ideal for him to hit
home runs. And in ’61 he did. He hit sixty-one home runs.
But Mickey was just special. He was the icon of that time. The name, the run,
everything about Mickey was just--he just caught on with the press, and he was
advertised as the best player around during that time. He was a switch hitter. He could
outrun anybody in baseball. He had a one thousand dollar bet if anybody wanted to try
him. One did. He got beat so bad nobody else ever tried him. He could go from first to
third. He was a great defensive outfielder. He could bunt with two strikes when you
�Bobby Richardson
15
thought he was going to strike out. He could bunt it right to the second baseman and still
beat it out.
I was in Kansas City the other day and Pete Rose was there. You know that name
from baseball. He had four thousand hits. And he asked me a question. He said, “Tell me
something. Did the Yankees ever talk about me?” And I said, “Well, they did.” He said,
“Who?” I said, “Mantle and Ford.” He said, “What did they say?” I said, “Well, they
were talking about how fast you got down to first base.” He said, “Well, I wasn’t that
fast. Mantle could outrun me.” I said, “They were talking about on a base on balls.” He
used to run full-speed when he got a walk down to first base. And they sort of named him
Charlie Hustle for that. And that name stuck with him all these years.
But Mantle was special. He came down to my--you’re from Columbia, but I
coached at the University of South Carolina. We’ll talk about that later. But we had eightyear-old boys and educational TV asked us to put together a batting instruction program
with Mantle leading it. He did. He would encourage the little boys that came up to bat.
He’d not change them too much but just encourage them.
When it was over, one of the little boys said, “Mr. Mantle, would you just take
one swing with the bat and let us see you swing?” My assistant coach was pitching, and
Mantle chose to bat right-handed. He threw the ball, and he hit it out of the ballpark, over
the football field, into the parking lot. I jumped up and said, “Stop, we’ve got to stop that.
I parked my car over there. We can’t do that anymore.” But he was a tremendous
individual as well with a great heart.
INT: Did you skip college ball?
BR: I was not eligible because I signed at seventeen, came back to the University
�Bobby Richardson
16
of South Carolina on a semester basis. And you can’t play both professional and college.
And I chose the Yankees over playing for the Gamecocks.
INT: And here’s another question. I know Mickey Mantle; he wasn’t able to go
into the Korean War because he had a hip problem or a leg problem?
BR: He had osteomyelitis, which is a bone disease and blood issue, when he was
young. And because of that he was 4F and could not go in. But I remember that people
said, “You’re the best. You can outrun anybody in the league. You ought to be over
there.” I remember that Martin kidded him a lot. Martin said, “Why don’t we do this?
The fans are getting under you so much. Let’s trade uniforms.”
So, he wore Martin’s number one and Martin wore his number seven. They went
out on the field. It didn’t last long. They came in, and Mantle said, “I’d rather face that
bullet that they told me in the letter they were going to go shoot me out on the field than
to get the boos I got from being Billy Martin.” Anyway, it was a funny thing that
happened.
INT: Right. I heard that name.
BR: You heard that?
INT: Yeah. And they also--the Army tried to get him three times, and he failed
each time. But you had the Korean War--or not the Korean War, but the Vietnam War
going on. Were you ever considered?
BR: I wasn’t because I got married young. I got married at nineteen, and just at
that time if you go back to that era, it was a draft where they were not drafting married
folks with children. So I did not get that.
INT: And what’s your wife’s name?
�Bobby Richardson
17
BR: Betsy.
INT: Betsy?
BR: Been married fifty-eight years.
INT: You have kids, I’m sure?
BR: I’ve got three boys, two girls. My boys were captain of their college teams.
They went to school out west, Wheaton College in Chicago and Taylor University in
Indiana. And they were captain of their college teams. And both of them are pastors now.
They had a chance to go into pro ball, but they chose to go to seminary. They’re both
pastors, one in Michigan and one in South Carolina.
INT: What would you say--what year would you say was probably your favorite
year? I think I have a pretty good idea which one, but if you would just explain to the
class your best year of memories.
BR: I think 1962 would be the year that I would pick. We were the world
champions. We lost to Pittsburgh in the ’60 series. That’s when I set the record of twelve
RBIs in a World Series. And Mantle thought that was our biggest disappointment. When
that Series was over, he was actually crying in the clubhouse. He said we had a better
team but we lost.
And that also is the time that Sport magazine came into our clubhouse and said to
me, “You’ve been nominated. You’ve been chosen as the most valuable player in the
World Series even though the team lost.” That’s never happened before, and I don’t think
it ever will happen since.
Now, the trophy is a ’60 Corvette, and so I was able to drive a ’60 Corvette to my
home in South Carolina, realized that I couldn’t get my two boys in there. I’m a quail
�Bobby Richardson
18
hunter. I’ve had bird dogs and all. And so I took it down and traded it for a Jeep. My son
now says, “Dad, I can’t believe you did that.” And I can’t either, now. But at the time I
thought it made sense.
But to answer your question, Sixty-two. We won the world’s championship the
next year in ’61 when all the home runs were hit. But ’62 was the year that I liked the
most. Mantle was hurt a lot of that season, but he still was voted most valuable player in
the American League. And I was runner up to Mickey Mantle for most valuable player.
And then he made the statement, “Bobby should have won.”
I led the American League in hits with 209, and it was just one of those years
when everything seemed to go my way. But if I had to pick one time, it would be the ’62
World Series.
INT: And you had a hell of a snag against Willie McCovey, and I’m sure he was
pretty upset about that. Did you ever talk to him afterwards?
BR: I did. It’s interesting you’d say that, because for those of you that weren’t
around, the situation was very simply that there was Willie Mays on second base, Matty
Alou on third base, two outs, the last inning against the Yankees playing the San
Francisco Giants in the World Series. And Ralph Terry was pitching. He was the same
guy that was pitching two years earlier to Bill Mazeroski when he hit the ball out of the
park, and he was sort of the goat of the year, goat of the series.
But then two years later here was an identical situation, Yankees ahead by one
run. And our manager came out to talk to Ralph Terry to see whether he were to walk
him, load the bases and pitch to the right-handed Orlando Cepeda. I walked over to
second base and Mays was standing there.
�Bobby Richardson
19
And I roomed with Kubek my whole career, and Tony came over and he said, “I
sure hope McCovey doesn’t hit the ball to you.” And I said, “Why?” He said, “Because
you’ve already made one error in the Series and I’d hate to see you blow it now.” That’s
what I was thinking about as I walked back to my position.
He hit a line drive that’s probably one of the hardest balls I’ve ever seen hit. It had
overspin on it. It looked like a sure base hit. The Giants thought they had won the Series
because both runs would have scored. But it came down real quick and I was able to
catch that ball and end it. And so, that catch has been, over the years, gotten better and
better. But it really was not that difficult of a catch at that time.
The thing I remember most is right before the pitch the umpire at second base, the
National League umpire, said, “Hey Rich, can I have your hat for my little cousin?” I
caught the ball, took my hat off, and gave it to the umpire. Then I went in, and of course
everybody gathered at the mound. I gave the ball to Ralph Terry. And you can see a
picture. The New York Times had a picture of the umpire walking by with my hat and I
was bareheaded.
INT: I thought that was a really good catch. It almost looked in the video like you
were about to drop it or you’re going to fall on your face.
BR: I came down with it. If you’ll notice, I caught it with two hands.
INT: Yeah, I saw that. I wouldn’t want to drop it either. But you were talking
about how Mickey Mantle was in the hospital, and he felt like you should have gotten it.
Can you talk about your relationship with Mickey?
BR: Mickey and I did have a place together in Boone, North Carolina. I remember
one occasion. We were up there together, and it’s sort of a snow area, if you know the
�Bobby Richardson
20
area up there in the wintertime. And we were both grand marshals of a ski festival. They
had a skier by the name of Billy Kidd up there that was supposed to be fantastic.
I didn’t know how to ski. Mickey didn’t know how to ski. But they wanted to take
a picture. And so they took it on the lift like we knew what we were doing, just going up
on the lift. And then the weather turned real bad, and Mickey had to fly from Boone,
North Carolina to Charlotte in a helicopter. And then he was going to fly from Charlotte
on to where he was going.
He looked over at my wife and he said, “Hey, before I get on that bubble
helicopter in this weather, let’s go in and have prayer together. Let’s read the scriptures
together.” And we did. And we just had a great relationship. And on numerous occasions
he and I would do that very thing and talk about his relationship with the Lord.
And then, Roger Maris at fifty-one years of age had a battle with cancer. And he
died in Fargo, North Dakota. And I was asked to represent the Yankees and speak at his
funeral. Mickey was a pallbearer. And when the funeral was over that day, we got in a
motor home going back to the hotel. It was so cold. I’ve never been that cold in my life.
And I remember that Mickey Mantle sat down by me, and he looked over at me and he
said, “Hey, I want you to have my funeral.”
I guess that was one of the first times he had heard me speak. And he said, “I want
you to have my funeral.” And I didn’t answer him because I didn’t know what to say. I
thought that’ll never happen. But every time I saw him after that he would say, “Don’t
forget now. You’re to have my funeral.”
And then there was a poignant interview on national television with Bob Costas.
And Mickey had been through Betty Ford. He said, “I don’t drink anymore.” He said, “I
�Bobby Richardson
21
haven’t been a good father.” It took so much courage on national television looking like
he did for him to say that--haven’t been a good husband, haven’t been a good father.
And then he said, “I have a void in my heart.” And it wasn’t too long after that
that I was in Dallas, Texas, and my phone rang at 5:00 in the morning. I was on a board
called Baseball Assistance Team. And my wife answered the phone. It was Mickey, and
he said, “Betsy, I’m really hurting. I want Bobby to pray for me.”
And he got on the phone, and we did have prayer together. And I shared this one
verse with Mickey. I said, “Mickey, there’s a verse in Philippians, the fourth chapter, and
it says delight yourself in the Lord. Find your joy in Him at all times. Never forget his
nearness.” Then it says, “Tell God in detail your problems, your anxieties, and the
promises, the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall keep our hearts and
minds as we rest in Christ Jesus.”
I went out and spent the next two days with him, and Betsy spent the time with his
wife. And as I started to leave, he said, “Don’t forget now, have my funeral.” Well, about
three weeks later the call came. He had taken a turn for the worse, and the family wanted
Betsy and I to be with them. Immediately, we were on a plane flying toward Dallas, and
one more time I wanted to be bold in my witness to him.
I dropped Betsy off and went to the hospital. He just had a smile on his face, even
as sick as he was. And he said, “I want you to know I’m a Christian. I’ve accepted Christ
as my savior.” We had a wonderful time together. Betsy talked, and then it was all set up
that he was talking to me about the funeral. He went on to be with the Lord four days
later, and on national television I had his service.
And I remember that Mickey had a day in New York. They retired his number
�Bobby Richardson
22
seven, monument in center field. If you’ve been up there, you’ve probably seen that
monument in center field. And they retired his number seven. And he had heard me use
these words, and he said, “I want to use them on my day in New York.” Too much going
on that day, and I didn’t have a chance. But they were appropriate then and now as well.
It says your name may not appear down here in this world’s Hall of Fame. In fact,
you may be so unknown that no one knows your name. The trophies, the honors, the
flashbulbs may pass you by, and neon lights of blue. But if you know and love the Lord,
then I have news for you. This Hall of Fame is only good as long as time shall be. But
keep in mind God’s Hall of Fame is for eternity.
This crowd on Earth, they soon forget the heroes of the past. They cheer like mad
until you fall, and that’s how long you last. But in God’s Hall of Fame, by just believing
in his son, inscribed you’ll find your name. I tell my friend I wouldn’t trade my name,
however small, that’s written there beyond the stars in that celestial hall. For every
famous name on Earth or glory that they share, I’d rather be an unknown here, have my
name up there. And I guess that really does say it all.
INT: Absolutely. Well, I mean, with baseball comes many things along with it,
especially in the Mick’s case; women, for sure, alcohol. I’m not too sure about the drugs,
but I know money is definitely a factor. But I’m sure you dealt with your fair share of
pressures. Did you have any that were very prevalent?
BR: Well, I had two uncles that were both alcoholics, and I had to hold them
down when I was about seven or eight years old. And so I just decided I would never
touch it. I’ve never tasted beer or alcohol of any kind. Nothing on my part other than the
fact that I went through something that I didn’t want to be a part of in the future. And I’m
�Bobby Richardson
23
smart enough to know that if you take one drink you are liable to be an alcoholic. That
doesn’t necessarily mean you will. If you can control it, fine. But so many times and so
many of my teammates couldn’t control it.
That was a big problem on our Yankee ballclub, alcohol. We did not have drugs
in the era that I played in, and alcohol was the big issue. They would laugh about it.
Mantle would come in supposedly drunk in the morning and have his best day ever--three
hits, four hits. They would kid about it a little bit.
But in afterlife that was probably his biggest problem. And with alcohol comes
the women you’re talking about. He lived with his agent for a long time, and so I’ve been
through all that, and I’ve seen. I know what the answer is. The answer is in the Lord. And
in my case it worked out fine. And I’m bold enough to share that to young people that I
think will enter into that themselves sometime if they’re not careful.
INT: The game’s a lot different now. I mean, if you look at any live game going
on, you can see where the strike zone is and where you’ve thrown pitches. Just compared
to the 50s and even the 60s, for instance the ’61 game when Roger Maris hit his homer,
you just see 61 just blinking. And now it would be just completely digitized and just
crazy.
And also with that being said you have your free agents and stuff who just go up
on a waiver wire, and you have all these opportunities to pick up new people from every
part of the United States. How would you say this differs from your time being picked up
and scouted?
BR: Well, finance would be the big problem. When I started out with the
Yankees, my salary was five thousand dollars a year. This would have been in 1955. My
�Bobby Richardson
24
son equated that to thirty-five dollars a game. Can you imagine now a ballplayer making
thirty-five dollars a game? And we had to work during the offseason to supplement our
income.
And the minimum salary at that time was five thousand dollars. Now, today the
minimum salary is a half million dollars. And they make--the average salary in the big
leagues now is multimillions. And I just can’t believe some of the contracts. A-Rod, the
Yankees have been trying to get rid of him now for three years. They still owe him about
two hundred million dollars. And even though he’s supposedly suspended, he had to play
last year to get paid the money that was due him.
And it’s going to be interesting to see what happens in the future. But drugs and
those things are all a part of it. But everything is built around finance. You notice how
late the games start because they want prime time, how many interviews there are, how
long it takes to play a baseball game now? During my time, if you would have had
somebody (00:36:32) their batting--we didn’t wear batting gloves, but if they had a
batting glove on and every time they stepped in, his teammates would have said, hey, get
on with it. Let’s get on this game.
We had two-hour games when Whitey Ford pitched back then in those areas. So,
the whole game--we traveled by train in those early years. Now, of course, some of the
players even have their own jets. They don’t fly with the team. And so it’s a different era
now altogether.
INT: What kind of work did you do in the offseason?
BR: I had a situation where Liberty Life Insurance Company had their home
office in Greenville, and they asked me if I would put together five color commercials for
�Bobby Richardson
25
them. These were all outdoor commercials. I’d be introducing a new policy. I’d be
walking through the woods and put my gun down and say, “This is an opportunity.” With
this new insurance policy you can save money and you can retire, that type of thing.
I did one for US Keds, and I was supposed to dribble a basketball between a
group of young boys. The first time I dribbled it, one boy took it away from me. The next
time I missed the shot. And then I finally made one. I put it up and talked about the arch
support and the heel-to-toe cushioning and said US Keds are a good tennis shoe or
something like that. I had some of those.
I had menial jobs, too. I remember going back one time and my buddy was
driving an oil truck and he didn’t want to work at Christmastime. And I said, “I’ll do it
for you. I’m going to be right here, and be glad to.” And I remember that I wasn’t really
used to driving a smaller truck, but not the big truck that he gave me at Christmastime,
and I turned and not sharp enough and didn’t get into the driveway, and I had the whole
street blocked and didn’t know how to get it in reverse. And we had it all blocked for two
hours.
So, I’ve had all kinds of jobs that would have worked out. But as you probably
know, I went into coaching. Are you going to mention that?
INT: Yes, sir. So, you coached from 1970 to ’76 at USC?
BR: I did. Here’s what happened. We retired a little bit early. Kubek and I were
both the shortstop and second baseman on the Yankees. And we had played ten years,
and the Yankees had won nine out of ten years. And we decided we wanted to change our
priorities. Instead of staying in baseball and traveling 162-game schedule, we wanted to
see our boys growing up.
�Bobby Richardson
26
And so both of us decided to retire. Sports Illustrated found out about it. They
were going to put us on the cover of Sports Illustrated magazine. It was to be a big deal.
Ralph Houk was the general manager, and he came up to us and said I need one of you
two to play one more year to break Bobby Mercer in. It was all set up that Tony would
play one more year and I would retire.
As it turned out, Tony got called in the reserve program, and playing touch
football he got a pinch nerve, and Mayo Clinic said he had to retire. It might result in a
permanent paralysis. So the Yankees called and said Tony can’t play. Will you play one
more year? And I was glad to do that. And because I did, they gave me a day at Yankee
Stadium.
I was the tenth Yankee to have a day at Yankee Stadium, including Babe Ruth,
Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle. And it was a wonderful day. George Beverly
Shea--you remember that name--sang “How Great Thou Art.” They gave me an
automobile and some wonderful gifts. I went 0-for-5 that day. I remember that very well.
When it was over I flew back down to South Carolina and then ended up the
season. But anyway, I retired. They gave me a five-year contract, one to play that last
year and four just to decide what I wanted to do. Well, three years later when I got back
down there, I told him, I told the general manager of the Yankees, I said, “Listen, I just
want to get out of the travel.” I said, “I want to go back there.”
And he said, “Well, when you get settled, just give us a call and we’ll bring the
Yankees down to play your ballclub.” Three years later we lost out to Miami by one run
in Columbia, your hometown. And so I called the Yankees and said, “I’m ready for you
to come down and play.” Lee McPhail was the general manager. His father used to own
�Bobby Richardson
27
the Yankees before that.
And he said, “Well, we’ve got a little problem. We’re traveling north with the
Mets. Would it be all right if the Yankees and Mets come and play your ballclub?” And
Yogi was managing the Mets. So both the Yankees and the Mets came into Columbia.
We played three innings against the Yankees, three against the Mets. They played each
other under the lights, just put our team on the map. And the next year we finished
second in the nation in the College World Series.
Our record was 51-6, and two of those six were the last two games of the College
World Series when Texas beat us. And so, I really--are you from Texas?
Audience: Yes, sir.
BR: OK.
A: VT alum.
BR: I saw that. Gustafson, Cliff Gustafson was the coach at that time. And then I
retired from coaching the next year and ran for Congress. I hope you’ve forgotten that.
Did you remember that?
A: I remembered that.
BR: I’m sorry. I had an unusual situation. Go ahead.
INT: So, you ran for South Carolina’s fifth district?
BR: Fifth district.
INT: And then you were also backed by--.
BR: You know what the representative’s name is there, don’t you? What’s your
last name?
INT: Clyburn.
�Bobby Richardson
28
BR: OK, Clyburn.
INT: Yes, sir.
BR: It’s not your kinfolk, though?
INT: Cousin. I’m sorry. I’m just kidding.
BR: Is it really?
INT: Yes, sir.
BR: Is it really?
INT: Yes.
BR: Well, anyway, here’s the deal. Gerald Ford asked me to run. He was a
personal friend. I don’t know how I got to know him so well, but he was chaplain of the
Senate, chaplain of--let’s see how that--my best friend was chaplain for President Ford.
And he called me and asked me to run for Congress. And it’s kind of hard to say no, and I
did.
And my first check was from Gene Autry. Do you guys know that name, or are
you too young? Gene Autry? Roy Rogers? You ever heard those names? You aren’t
Cowboy fans. Gene Autry was a great Cowboy, and Roy Rogers was a great Cowboy.
Gene Autry sent me a check for five hundred dollars and said come out to California. He
owned the Angels out there. He said, “I’ll help you raise some money.” I flew out there,
and I remember so well that he got up. He’d been drinking a little bit. He said, “Bobby is
Conservative. We need to vote for him.”
Well, as it turned out, DiMaggio and Mantle were there in attendance, and they
both came up to me and said, “We hear you're running for Congress. I don’t know which
ticket. It doesn’t matter. We’ll both come across the country at our own expense and do
�Bobby Richardson
29
anything you’d like.” And Mantle came in to Rock Hill. I’m not sure he helped me that
much because he got on the CB radio and said, “I wouldn’t vote for Bobby for dog
catcher,” and then laughed.
And DiMaggio came in. We had a barbecue in Sumter, and three thousand people
came out. Everybody in Sumter’s got a Joe DiMaggio ball now. But I lost the election by
1,500 votes out of 128,000. My wife said I won because I didn’t have to go to
Washington, and I think she’s probably right.
INT: Yeah, 51.4 percent to 48.3. So, it’s actually a pretty slim margin.
BR: It was close. I was leading until the last day, and Jimmy Carter came in and
brought his peanut brigade in, and all of a sudden I wasn’t leading anymore.
INT: But yeah, I do think that’s interesting that Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle
and Ted Williams, Bob Feller and Wilmer “Vinegar Ben” Mizell helped you out, which
was really nice. And then you mentioned earlier Tony Kubek, he unfortunately didn’t.
BR: He was a staunch Democrat.
INT: He was a Democrat, so he didn’t help you out there. That’s a bummer,
though. And then, as far as--.
BR: I never did understand that because we were such close friends. And it wasn’t
so much--he checked on the opponent, and he thought the opponent was doing a good
job, so that was the reason he said he didn’t vote for him. And I understand that. I just
didn’t think he was doing a good job. That’s why I ran.
INT: And besides USC, you did coach at other schools, right?
BR: I coached at Coastal Carolina in Conway, Myrtle Beach. And I coached at
Liberty University. And both places I was the athletic director as well as baseball coach.
�Bobby Richardson
30
INT: And then you’ve also written a book?
BR: I’ve written a book. I’ve written two books. I wrote an autobiography way
back in ’65. It sold 100,000 copies. A little different price in those days, though--the
paperback was sixty cents, and the hardback was $3.95. This is called Impact Player, just
written this. Joe Girardi, the current manager of the Yankees, wrote the forward in the
book. It’s really going well. Tyndale Publishing Company wrote the book--I mean, was
the publisher of the book. And it sold a good number of books.
I’m hearing--it’s amazing how when you write a book--and I’m not--it was
something that I felt led to do. But I don’t push the book. I brought one here today
because I didn’t know he already had one. And I’ll just give it out. We’ll have one
question and I’ll see who’ll win this book.
KT: Circulate it around.
BR: Oh, yes. Please do.
KT: I think the group has probably got some questions, but I was wondering,
would this be a good time to play the DVD?
BR: That would be great. If you think we can do that, great.
KT: You said it’s just a few minutes?
BR: Two and a half minutes. It shows me in an empty stadium, and it switches to
Yankee Stadium.
KT: Is it short intro?
BR: Yes, the first one. It does have sound, though.
[PRESENTATION PLAYS]
KT: Can you hear that?
�Bobby Richardson
31
BR: We can hear it. I want you to laugh when you see smoking cigarettes now.
You will in just a second. That’s her. That record has been tied. Pujols got six RBI. And
you heard me say I only had twenty-six the whole year. This is one little fielding play. It
shows that. The runners aren’t that slow. That’s slow motion.
KT: Do you remember that, Bubba?
A: (00:48:23) ground ball.
BR: You’re going to miss this next one, though. So, that’s what you were talking
about, going down with the ball.
INT: Yes, sir.
BR: If you don’t--can’t notice it, but my hat’s--well, you couldn’t see it there,
though. That’s fine.
A: I actually do remember that. I’d just gotten home from school and watched the
last couple of innings of the game. Very tense.
BR: It was tense.
KT: So, what other questions BR: For some reason, you need to cut that off. This is starting the Bobby
Richardson Story, which is a film they made back in those days.
KT: What questions from the group?
A: You wore number one, and I don’t know about--I’ve always heard athletes are
superstitious with what numbers they wear. Why did you pick number one?
BR: Well, you know, the athletes don’t pick it. They assign them to you.
A: Oh, really?
BR: They do. And what happened, Billy Martin was wearing number one, and
�Bobby Richardson
32
Billy Martin liked to drink a little bit, and he and Mantle and Ford and Bauer went out to
the Copacabana nightclub in New York, and they ran up a bar bill that was about two
thousand dollars. And none of them had that much money. And so, Billy Martin chose to
sign the owner’s name--Dan Topping owned the Yankees--to the bar tab.
And so, he signed it, and the owners didn’t like it too much, didn’t want to do
anything to Mantle or Ford, so they traded Billy Martin to the Kansas City ballclub. And
the clubhouse guy is the one on the Yankees that dictates who wears what numbers. You
would think it would be somebody high in the organization. But the clubhouse guy, who
was there with Ruth and all of the guys, the finest man I’ve ever met--his name was Pete
Sheehy. And he just came up to me the next day and he said, “You’re to wear this
number.”
And then what happened, it was retired. Billy Martin became a manager, and a
good manager. But he’d often get fired. He’d get in fights and they’d fire him, and they’d
bring him back because he’s so good, and actually came back five times with the New
York Yankees. And on the fifth time he came back he told Steinbrenner, “I’ll come back
if you retire my number.” And so, he said, “I’ll do that.” And so they retired the number.
And then he wrote me a letter. Once a number’s retired, you can’t wear that
number. And so, he wrote me a letter and said, “I want you to know that as long as you
live you can wear that in old-timer’s games or any time you want to.” And he signed it,
“Your friend in God, Billy Martin.” And I appreciated that. Tony Kubek, for instance,
Phil Rizzuto’s number is retired. If he were to come back, because he didn’t have that
letter, they would just assign Tony another number. He wouldn’t wear that. Yes?
A: Now, from what I’ve gotten from here about you, it says that you won Gold
�Bobby Richardson
33
Gloves as a second baseman from ’61 to ’65, with Robinson Cano being the second
second baseman in 2010 (00:51:30). So, in other words, does this make you the first
Yankee at the time to be a Gold Glove recipient for the time period?
BR: No. That’s a little misleading. Every year they pick nine, one for each
position, as a Golden Glove, one in the American League and one in the National League.
And, what happened, I’m not sure about this, but I’m just insinuating now that during the
next years and so forth the Yankees just didn’t have a second baseman that made the--I’m
going to cut this doorbell off just for a minute. Sorry about that.
A: What about Horace Clarke, maybe?
BR: Horace Clarke, I don’t think he ever got a Gold Glove. Horace Clarke took
my place and played for the next seven years.
A: Willie Randolph--.
BR: Willie would have had some, Willie Randolph. They pick one each year.
Now, Nellie Fox had to retire before I got my first one because he had a whole bunch in a
row. Yes?
A: You had a baseball park actually built in Sumter. I grew up there.
BR: What’s your name?
A: (00:52:37). I went to (00:52:39). I actually played at your park for about five
years (00:52:43). Can you tell us how you built that baseball park?
BR: I sure will. I had a day in New York that I mentioned. The mayor of Sumter,
his name was Bo Graham at that time. And he came up, and on that day they established
the Bobby Richardson Ballpark. They fixed it up pretty nice. We have another one that’s
even nicer now out in that--what do you call that area out there? But anyway, whatever
�Bobby Richardson
34
you call it--but that’s an honor.
And they put a little--they wanted to put a statue up that cost one hundred
thousand dollars. I said, “No way.” I said, “I’d just rather have just a little plaque of some
kind.” And they put a plaque up.
A: I remember the big entrance (sign?) with your name on it (00:53:25).
BR: The Yankees sent down two photographers, and they just wanted to see what
an old retired baseball player would do in two days in his life. They came down. I have a
little restaurant, Guignard Diner. Do you know where it is?
A: Yes, sir.
BR: I live just a block from there. And we have a little group called ROMEO
Club, Retired Old Men Eating Out. We go down there for coffee in the mornings. So, I
took them down there and they interviewed some of my friends. And then I said, “Now
what I really do is quail hunt. Let’s go quail hunting.” And I took them out, and we had
dogs. And if you’ve never been quail hunting, the dog stops and points. He smells the
scent, and he stops. And you walk up behind them and all of a sudden the birds get up
like that.
We shot for a while, and I had my grandson with me and my son, and they shot.
We all grew up hunting, so we’re pretty good at it. And the photographer said, “I think I
could do that.” So, we let him try. Six straight cover-your-eyes shots, he didn’t cut a
feather. He said it’s a little harder than it looks. But we did that, too. But Sumter has been
home all these years, live in the same home fifty-four years. We do spent five months a
year at Litchfield. We go down in March and April, September, October, and this year
November, too.
�Bobby Richardson
35
A: (00:54:35) when you were playing and you were batting. What pitcher do you
think was your favorite pitcher to bat against? And who was the worst that was always
(00:54:44)?
BR: Let me tell you the worst first. When you mentioned a while ago I didn’t
strike out much, I didn’t strike out. 200 sounds like a lot, 200 and whatever it was, but it’s
not very much.
INT: Twenty a year.
BR: But three of those in one World Series game was Sandy Koufax. Sandy
Koufax was pitching, and Tony Kubek led off and he struck out. I was batting second. I
struck out. Mickey Mantle was batting third. He struck out. The next time around, Kubek
struck out. I struck out. Mantle struck out. Third time up, I just wanted to be a first-ball
hitter, hit it somewhere. Kubek struck out. I struck out again. When I walked by Mantle
in the on-deck circle, he shook his head and said no use for me to go up there. He got him
three times, too. He was the worst.
The best was a boy by the name of Paul Foytack from Detroit. One year I only hit
two home runs. I hit them both off Paul Foytack. He was my favorite. He didn’t like that.
Yes?
A: (00:55:41) What’s your personal opinion of today’s game dealing with steroids
(00:55:47)?
BR: The unfortunate thing is they were not--let me think, what’s the word? They
were legal. I mean there was no rule saying you couldn’t use them in the early days. And
then when the rule came down, I think the unfortunate thing is that some that were using
them just said, “Okay, I’ll stop.” And you never hear any more about that. They stopped.
�Bobby Richardson
36
But there were some that stood before Congress and argued and said, “I didn’t use
them,” and so forth. And those are the ones that are being penalized right now. I think
that now they have a system set up where you’re not going to have a problem with
steroids because they got a fifty-game suspension for the first time, somewhere on that
now.
But I just think it’s unfortunate because pitchers were probably using them, too,
and you don’t know of too many pitchers. Well, the one, of course, is, and he’s the one
that has the big court case, and they still. But what I guess where the tough part will come
in, some of those players won’t get in the Hall of Fame, at least for a while.
And it just seems like that when you cheat like that, or at least it’s cheating when
you’re told you can’t--it’s illegal now and you still do it. But the voting in the Hall of
Fame has shown that they won’t get in when they should. Some have already happened
that way. But when you take a Barry Bonds--or take Pete Rose, for instance. Pete Rose of
all people should be in the Hall of Fame, four thousand base hits.
Now, in his case, all he had to do was say, gambling is wrong. I want young
people to know that I did it. I’m sorry, won’t do it again. And they shouldn’t do it. He’d
be in the Hall of Fame just like that. But instead he chose to kind of make some money
and do some other things, write a book and so forth.
KT: I was wondering, just kind of on that topic, what kind of things would
players, both pitchers and hitters, use to get an advantage; things that kind of skirted the
rules here back in the 50s and 60s?
BR: Well, Gaylord Perry was one that would skirt the rules with a spitter. And
he’d hide it in such a way I don’t think they ever found it. He was with somebody. He
�Bobby Richardson
37
coached at Limestone, and he was telling them the other day where he hid it, in the crease
of his uniform or something like down there. But it’s amazing what you can do doctoring
up a baseball to make it really do something.
I remember Elston Howard was our catcher, and I could see it. Evidently nobody
else picked it up in the stands or anything, but he would just make like he was falling and
rub it in some mud that he had put some water down there, and then throw it back to
Whitey. And when that mud is on one side of the ball, if you hold it the right way, it’ll
just really dip, just like a spitball.
And then Whitey used his belt buckle a couple of times to put an indentation in it.
I remember one time, and this is kind of funny, but Yogi Berra has kind of stubby fingers.
He was a great catcher but stubby fingers and they couldn’t see the signs and tried
painting them a little bit.
And Mickey said one day, “We don’t need Yogi, Whitey. Let’s just--when you're
pitching, I’ll give you the signs. I’ll be in center field, and Yogi, all you’ve got to do is
look at me and then give a very simple sign.” He said, “If I’m standing up straight it’s a
fastball. If I bend over a little bit it’s a curveball. If I just touch my glove it’s a slider.”
And so, Mickey gave the signals from center field. He pitched a shutout that day.
And then Whitey said, “Well, I don’t even need you. I’m going to call them myself now.”
And he from the pitcher’s mound would call the signs. And he would just tell Yogi was
he was going to throw. Yogi wouldn’t even put anything down.
But it’s really funny like that with baseball. You know, when you have twentyfive guys together like that, you get to be sort of a family, like. My reputation was that I’d
grown up as a Christian and I didn’t drink, and so they kind of had good-natured jokes
�Bobby Richardson
38
about me all the time. And then when the Yankees were the last team to fly, we got on a
plane.
And one day--I had permission. Any time it was an off day; I could fly home to be
with my family. I had to pay my own way, but I could fly home. We were in Los Angeles
one time and we played an afternoon game. And I flew home and I was going to join the
team on Tuesday in Detroit.
And on two occasions with the Yankees--the landing gear wouldn’t go down one
time, and they had some fuel trouble the other time. And the first thing my players, my
teammates, they looked down and said, “Where’s Richardson?” And I wasn’t on there.
They said, “We’re in trouble.” But it’s all good-natured. And since that time, honestly,
I’m not bragging about this at all because it’s a humble thing. But I’ve had eight of my
teammates’ funerals, just over the years.
Mickey asked me to have his funeral. Roger Maris, I represented the Yankees for
that. I’ve had Ralph Hauk’s funeral. I had Clete Boyer’s funeral. I had Enos Slaughter’s
funeral. I had Steve Hamilton’s funeral on the Yankees. And so the Lord just gave me
that.
While I was in New York, actually Steinbrenner actually called me, and I had the
prayer of dedication for the new Yankee Stadium, not the one now, but they renovated
the old stadium. They played at Shea for two years. When they came over, he asked if I
would have the prayer for dedication.
So, the Lord has honored. You know, I was thinking about jobs. This is vocation
we’re talking about. And you can see where baseball can go in so many directions. I
became a coach at the University of South Carolina. When I decided to call the Yankees
�Bobby Richardson
39
to get my release so I could be a college coach, they said to me, “Well, if you want to,
you can be our AAA manager, you can be our broadcaster, or you can be our coach on
the Major League level.” That would have been three opportunities to go in a different
direction in baseball. And I said, “No, the travel is the reason I got out. I’d like to try
college coaching.”
And then college coaching, I moved into the [directorship of the athletic.] But I
have young boys that are very much interested and would call me a sport--what would be
the deal if you go into--sport management, I guess it would be. And the Atlanta Braves,
all of these, that’s a wonderful vocation. And it’s the same way with you guys. When you
graduate from The Citadel, there’ll be some very successful businessmen that are Citadel
graduates. And I’ll guarantee you when you go to them, they will steer you in a direction
that will give you a wonderful job. Am I right on that back there?
KT: Yes, sir.
BR: OK, great. Yes?
A: What made you decide to coach?
BR: Paul Dietzel asked me--he was the athletic director at South Carolina. I had
five years on a contract, four to go. And he came over and spoke at a banquet and asked
me to be the baseball coach. And I turned him down. I said, Paul, I just don’t think that’s
for me. Thank you very much. He came back the second time, and I said, “Paul, I still
feel the same way. I just don’t feel--I’m still working for the Yankees.” I was doing those
commercials on television. And I said, “I just don’t feel it.
And he came back the third time and said, “Last time. I won’t bother you
anymore.” And I said, “I’m ready to try it.” And I tried it and I just loved it. I had--y'all
�Bobby Richardson
40
don’t know names, so it’s kind of hard for me to throw them out, but you can help them a
little bit. In ’75, when we finished second in the nation, I had some really good
ballplayers.
But two guys that signed to come and play for me, one was Wade Boggs, and the
other was Tino Martinez, who was a first baseman for the Yankees. They chose not to go
to college but instead to go pro. Recruiting was easy because we were ranked so high. We
had a great facility. We have a better one now at the University of South Carolina. We
used to play The Citadel. Chal Port was the manager.
And I had a friend by the name of Dickie Jones. Dickie Jones was one of those
guys that was really well thought of down here at The Citadel. Do you remember that
name at all? (Dickie?) Pardon?
A: He’s a good golfer.
BR: Yes, right. He’s a lawyer in Sumter, in my hometown. And he was a catcher
on the baseball team. And I told my catcher, I said, “Now when Dickie comes up, tell
him what’s coming.” And he would say, “Dickie, it’s going to be a fastball.” Dickie
would step out of the box. He said, “I don’t want to know.” And he’d throw him--it was a
fastball. He said, “You’re working with my mind. Don’t tell me that.” And the next pitch,
he said, “It’s going to be a curveball.” He said, “No.” He stepped out. He said, “I don’t
want to know. Don’t tell me anymore.” We laugh about it now. Yes?
A: I was wondering, like, when you’re batting, you hear some funny stories with
the catchers trying to get in your mind.
BR: Well, Yogi could do something that would really bother them. You know
how when you swing back, when you’re up at the plate you just let your bat go back like
�Bobby Richardson
41
that and then get up there. And Yogi would hit their bat with his mitt right before. He’d
just mess their whole rhythm up and they’d step out. He’d say I’m sorry. But you’re
right.
I remember one time I was 0-for-29. They talked me into chewing tobacco. They
said they would help me in my headache. I chewed tobacco, and then I didn’t know
which ball to swing at when it was coming. I’d see more than one.
INT: I have a question. I was talking about 1962 and the catch you made against
Willie McCovey. Do you still have that ball?
BR: Oh, I wanted to add something. I’m glad. I don’t. I gave it to the pitcher. But
forty-five years later I was invited to come out and be a part of a program at San
Francisco. They invited a number of the Yankees, but they won’t fly across the country.
Yogi won’t fly all the way to San Francisco just to be introduced before a ballgame or
something like that with no intent.
But they asked me to come out, and they said, “We’re going to have a banquet the
night before, and you and Willie McCovey will speak at this banquet. And then we’d like
the two of you to throw the first ball out.” Well, when I saw him for the first time he
looked at me, and this is what he said. He said, “I bet your hand is still hurting.” I said,
“You hit it hard.” And he did. He said I was playing out of position. I just didn’t know it.
INT: Yeah, well, you were probably a little bit to the left.
BR: I was. That’s what he said.
INT: I think that’s really--I’m trying to remember what I was going to say. So, he
was inducted in the Hall of Fame in 1986. And not to be disrespectful or not to sound any
kind of way, just a warning so I don’t get jumped. Why aren’t you? You had a really
�Bobby Richardson
42
good career.
BR: You hit the right word. Good, not great.
INT: Oh, jeez. I put my foot in my mouth.
BR: Plus, I didn’t play as long. I retired at thirty. If I had played another five, and
I could have easily played another five years, if you would measure my stats with Bill
Mazeroski’s--he’s in the Hall of Fame. The other thing is the Yankees had so many Hall
of Famers. Pittsburgh didn’t have hardly any. And that all--for instance, an All-Star,
every year you have to have somebody from every team to be chosen on the All-Star
team. So, there’s some chosen some years that aren’t quite as good. Maybe they aren’t
really an All-Star, but nobody else from that team, so you get on there.
Now, I’m not defending, but if you look at my record and compare it with
Mazeroski’s, he was only in the Series one year, in 1960. And I was the KTP of that
series. But I hold the record of playing in thirty consecutive World Series games over a
five-year period, plus I played in some more. I led the American league in hits. I was the
most valuable player of a World Series. I still hold the record for the most hits in a fivegame series, a seven-game series, or at least tied with it, I guess it is.
And so, what I guess I’m saying, runner-up to Mantle for KTP in the American
League, if you look at my record on that basis and compare it with Mazeroski’s, then yes,
I do have a chance. But the Yankees had so many great--look at down the middle. Yogi
Berra, the catcher, is in. Whitey Ford, the pitcher, Phil Rizzuto, the shortstop, Mickey
Mantle, the center fielder. We had so many Hall of Famers during that era that I played.
And then, following behind that, Reggie Jackson and so forth. It’s still not a good answer,
but the real answer is I was good but not great.
�Bobby Richardson
43
INT: Right. Well, and I was just kind of looking at Mickey’s statistics, for
instance, in ’62, kind of comparing them to yours. He had 96 runs, 121 homers, which is
a lot, 89 RBIs, 78 strikeouts, batted .321, and his on-base percentage was .489. But the
Series, he didn’t do that well. He was hitting .120, which isn’t high at all, only had three
homers and five strikeouts. No homers, three hits.
BR: If you were to ask me my biggest thrill in baseball, on two occasions Mickey
was out of the lineup. He missed a lot because he had injuries and so forth. And then he
was about ready to come in but didn’t start the game. But in the ninth inning or the eighth
inning, you’d see him walk up into the on-deck circle. They were going to pinch-hit him.
You could hear the rumble in the stands, not just Yankee Stadium, on the road as well.
I remember once in Baltimore, the fans saw him, and you could just see the
emotion rising in the stands. And they actually started clapping. And he walked up, hit
the ball out of the park, and I remember goose pimples coming out when he rounded the
bases. And I saw that happen on two occasions. He was just a great ballplayer that was
ready for whatever came his way.
INT: And you can correct me if I’m wrong, but did he not hit a home run with one
arm? Did he do that?
BR: I think he did. I think his hand slipped off the bat and the ball still went out of
the park. But he was strong. We have--in center field, it’s 400 and--let me think, 467 feet,
447 feet, but a 40 foot-high fence. Now, what I’m saying is, if you go to Wrigley Park,
and they’ve got a short left field and the wind’s always blowing out, Mantle would
probably have hit 300 more home runs if he had played his career in Wrigley Park rather
than Yankee Stadium. So, the stadium enters into it, too, and it did with Roger Maris, 296
�Bobby Richardson
44
down the line.
A: Yes, sir. What’s your opinion of the Major League Baseball today versus when
you played?
BR: I think it’s hurting. I think the integrity of baseball is suffering a little bit
because of steroids, because they're giving in to finance on every corner. And the games
are so long. They’re adding games. We’re playing during the basketball season. In fact,
the basketball season is almost over, and they’re still playing baseball.
It’s too cold to play, and everything is built around finance. I think we need a
commissioner of baseball that would step in, speed the games up a little bit, and there’s
some other things that could be done to really help baseball. It used to be the national
pastime when I was playing, but it’s really hurting right now.
KT: Can you talk a little just on that subject, talk a little bit about your training
and offseason regiment compared to today?
BR: Well, mine was quail hunting. I’d come home and take my bird dog and go
out and follow the dog around for several miles. There were no strength coaches in that
day. But now every ballclub has a strength coach or strength, what do you call it, strength
coach. And then they also have a conditioning season all season long. We didn’t do
anything.
I remember one time Mickey told me the only thing he did, he’d take a chair
every now and just lift it up just to work on his wrists a little bit, but nothing organized at
all. And the equipment is so different, too. I used a flat glove that people laugh at it when
they see it now today. I used it because you get the ball out quick for the double play. In
fact, Kubek, myself, and Clete Boyer; the three infielders, all used it.
�Bobby Richardson
45
Rawlings made the glove, Bobby Dillinger model. I signed with MacGregor. I
wouldn’t use MacGregor’s gloves. But Mantle signed with Rawlings. He’d get all of us
three gloves every year. And so Mantle would get us our gloves. They would give them
to us through Mantle, of course. But the big webbing now and so forth you see,
everything’s different. Bats are different.
INT: They’re just like big fingers.
BR: Yes.
INT: My dad used to have one that looked like hot dogs, almost. They were huge.
A: I was wondering, today, are you kind of staying in touch with the Yankees
organization or the minor leagues, or are you just kind of a fan?
BR: I do. It’s really funny, but I had a closer relationship with the Yankees. Dan
Topping owned the Yankees, and after the day that I had in New York, he asked me if I’d
come down. They just made a little film that was coming on just a minute ago there of
my life. He had a son named Bobby, and he asked me if I’d come down and spend three
days with him and just show the film to his family and so forth.
And then, as I mentioned, they called me up and asked me to come up and have
the prayer. So, we’ve had a close relationship. Not too long ago, Mr. Steinbrenner’s
daughter found out that my daughter had bought two tickets on HubStub--in fact, four
tickets on HubStub--but the Roger Maris deal. Fifty years later, when they’re observing a
new home run king pre-steroid, and they were honoring Roger even though he wasn’t
there and his family was there.
And her tickets were no good two days later when they rescheduled it. She
brought them up in the box and let them just stay up there with her and so forth. So, over
�Bobby Richardson
46
the years I’ve just had a great relationship with the Yankees. In fact, the former owner of
the Yankees used to come down and fish with me on the Santee in South Carolina. So, it
continues.
I’ve been invited every year. Played my first old-timer’s game at thirty-one, been
invited back every year. I’m going to be honored in New York on the 21st. They’re
picking two players, Major League Baseball, to give them their distinguished service or,
let me think, Lifetime Achievement Award. And Ozzie Smith and myself are going up
for that award in November at the Marriott Marquee.
And the Yankees asked me to come over. They’re filming something about
Mantle, and they wanted me to do some filming that morning before the occasion. So, we
still have a good relationship. Is our time up?
KT: Pardon?
BR: Is our time up? I was looking.
KT: A couple of minutes, maybe time for one or two last questions.
INT: Sorry. I wanted to touch on something that I thought was really important.
Religion is a really important topic when it comes to you. I mean, it stuck with you your
entire career, and through you, you really did make a heavy impact in Mickey Mantle’s
life. And I read that you are the national leader for FCA.
BR: I was president of Baseball Chapel for ten years, and I actually go back fifty
years with the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. We had a little deal in our home just the
other day at Litchfield. And we had an All-American from Oklahoma fly in. We had
somebody fly in over here that was the president of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes,
and entertainer, about ten of us, I guess. Jerry Moore was there, who was the football
�Bobby Richardson
47
coach at Appalachian and so forth.
That was started by a college coach whose dream was very simple--if in some
way Christian athletes could band together to influence young boys and girls. And it’s
been in existence now for almost sixty years. I have found that that’s the one organization
across the country that can still get into the schools with an open door.
They do it in a manner that’s before school, but they use school property. And it’s
instigated by the students themselves. And it is, I think, the best organization in the
country. So, I’m real active. And I feel like it’s having a real impact. And in my life the
Lord has been so real and so dear. I’m not a guy that’ll tap you on the shoulder and say,
“Hey, have you made this decision yet?” My personality is really low-key. But if I’m
asked or if I’m asked to share, I’ll just share what the Lord means to me.
DiMaggio and I were close friends. I remember that Kubek and I had his
confidence. He came back and coached two years for the Yankees when I was playing.
And he did it to upgrade his pension. But he was a loner. He was never with anybody. I
remember one night he said, “Rich, let’s go out and eat tonight.” I said, “My son, Rich, is
going to be there, and my wife.” He said, “Fine.”
And so, when we got there my little son, who was about seven, said, “Mr.
DiMaggio, can I ask you about Marilyn Monroe?” And I kicked him under the table like
that. He said, “No.” He said, “I really cared about her.” He would call Tony and I up if he
wasn’t traveling with us. He didn’t make all the trips. He said, “Now, when y'all get to
California, the phone will ring. It’ll be Marilyn Monroe. Just tell her that I didn’t make
the trip but I’ll be in touch with her,” and so forth.
But anyway, when he died, he had a deal where he didn’t want anybody to come
�Bobby Richardson
48
to his funeral. He was a very lonely man, very quiet. But I had a call from San Francisco.
His name was Greenberg. And he said, “I interviewed Joe DiMaggio six months before
he died. And he had a lot to say about you. I’d like to send you the notes.” And he did
send me the notes.
And what Joe was saying, in essence, was Bobby didn’t wear it on his shoulder.
In a quiet way, he shared what was real. He came down. I mentioned that he came down
when I ran for Congress. And a friend of mine by the name of Chuck Colson had just
written a book called Born Again.
And I gave Joe a copy of it and he said, “I didn’t like that guy. I don’t want that
book.” And I said, “Well, you’ll like the change in his life.” He said, “Okay, I’ll read it.”
And about two weeks later Decision magazine, Billy Graham’s magazine, came out with
an article.
There were three of them. There was Joe DiMaggio, Dom DiMaggio and Vince
DiMaggio. And Vince was sitting down watching television one night, but he was really
reading the sports news. And his wife was watching television. The second night he put
down his newspaper. And the third night he got down on his knees and accepted Christ.
And I clipped that out and sent it to Joe and he just said, “I got your letter.” He’s
very quiet. But the notes that they sent me said that he did listen in a quiet way, and it had
an impact on his life. Now, I’ve said all that but didn’t say anything, did I?
INT: No, that’s fine. That absolutely works.
KT: Mr. Richardson, thanks so much for coming out.
BR: Well, you’re welcome, man. I appreciate the honor of being here. Just know
that how much I appreciate the military, I appreciate you. I know we used to come down
�Bobby Richardson
49
here and stay in the dorm when I was in high school playing basketball. We’d stay in the
dorms here at The Citadel and play Bishop England and other schools here in the area.
And I could see what you’re going through and the discipline, so I appreciate you just as
much.
KT: Great.
BR: Thanks to you. You did a great job.
INT: Thank you, sir.
BR: Very good job. Let’s give him a hand. All right. Wait a minute. I saw one
didn’t clap. Go ahead. No, I’m just kidding. Thanks very much.
A: Sir, can I have your autograph?
BR: Yes, sir. You’ve got a pen? All right.
A: What’s it like when the people are asking you for your autograph?
BR: Well, to be honest with you, you wonder why. But I know there are some
baseball fans that really enjoy it and collect them.
A: Thank you, sir.
BR: OK, you’re welcome.
A: Can I get an autograph, too?
BR: Yes, sir.
A: My brother, he’s a big sports fanatic. He’s got a picture of Murderer’s Row. I
don’t know which one it was.
BR: That would be Ruth and Gehrig, in that era, I’m sure.
A: OK. He’s got a lot of sports memorabilia, particularly the Yankees, because
my grandmother, she was born in New York and she’s been a big Yankees fan. Is it OK if
�Bobby Richardson
50
I get a picture with you, too, sir?
BR: Absolutely.
KT: (01:18:55) Fantastic. Tell me when (01:19:01).
End of recording.
Transcript edited 10 July 14, DCT
Edited MLL January 1st, 2016
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kieran Walsh Taylor
Joseph Clyburn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bobby Richardson
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 19 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Bobby Richardson, interviewed by Kieran Walsh Taylor and Joseph Clyburn, 5 November, 2013
Subject
The topic of the resource
Baseball
New York Yankees (Baseball team)
Baseball players--1950-1970
Description
An account of the resource
Bobby Richardson was born in Sumter, South Carolina on August 19, 1935. While playing high school and American Legion baseball, he was discovered by the New York Yankees and after his high school graduation he joined them. He played two years on the Yankees' minor league farm team and at nineteen he participated in his first professional game. Richardson played with the Yankees for ten years from 1955 to 1966 and won nine out of ten World Series. Richardson earned several awards and holds still-standing records. Following his retirement from professional baseball Richardson coached the University of South Carolina Gamecocks from 1970-1976. In the interview Richardson recalls his friendships with baseball legends Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris; he shares his opinions about the present-day game of baseball, including length of the season, finances, and steroid use. Finally he reflects about the importance of his faith and the impact it has on his personal and professional life. When asked about his best year in baseball he choose 1962, stating "It was just one of those years when everything seemed to go my way."
<br />Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><h3><strong><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:93893" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></strong></h3>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Working Charleston
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/138
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/2bd9ecac52b8d2667349c9e3bc879137.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=KucqaUMoau8FV-L-4nuyigeeMWRW4QrxhrJk6947ZqG1vj5o8BCRDj0nlu5KQid1VObP7V92xHPSSo9Tw%7E3m3MKO1qkGGxrSR1pgaPY2wSvMsvioXbFtZcawZwAa0Sj7%7EL8hCKxifC%7EWfRsgqxhcHjE8lue22FyurpfNmvHyft7DNgE-4t9Ys-w%7Euv96t5Et-uiMNjmwOTFz4so5eLskH%7E1ku7hdm%7EP5L9%7EwW4O9rp1vJ8%7EXK6shCO8B2%7Em3zkC%7EIUFKz5jNfG6Cz0Kbp8Ea09FcwlzH8AR5n7SOBX-jNvpeCS94ySIWQ%7EN3xrEBlcnGPUK3v2D0WmISEJN%7EjgXRSw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
777e8e27226500f4571f0561a0a8b1fa
PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT – BURNET R. MAYBANK, JR.
Interviewee: BURNET R. MAYBANK, JR.
Interviewer: Dr. Jack Bass
Interview Date: October 23, 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Length: 60 minutes and 46 seconds
Dr. Jack Bass: Let’s begin with your telling how you ended up enrolling at the
Citadel to begin with.
Burnet Maybank: Well, I was in Charleston High School for a couple of years.
And then my father, who was elected governor--we had to move to Columbia. And I was
in Columbia High school for a year. And then he went to Washington and I transferred up
to Episcopal High in Alexandria, across the river from Washington. Episcopal High,
which is a fine old--old high school--prep school, I guess you would call it, and I was
there for two years. And then was talk --most of the boys that was there--it was a boy’s
school--ended up going to the University of Virginia, and that’s where I was thinking of
going. But my father says I could go anywhere that I wanted to, but he would pay it--pay
the way if I went to the Citadel [Laughter], which was the last thing that I had in mind
doing; but that’s how I ended up, I went to the Citadel. And in my first year--I started in
September of ’41. And so midway in my first year, I was up in my room with a number
of cadets that were on the room serving confinement to the room. And I was in my room
on the fourth floor of Murray Barracks and somebody came out in the quadrangle about
3:00 or 4:00 that afternoon and hollered up that, “Pearl Harbor has been bombed! Pearl
�Burnet Maybank
2
Harbor has been bombed!” We weren’t supposed to have our radio on. Of course, there
was no TV. And so, “Pearl Harbor has been bombed!” they called out. And I remember
some fellow down at the end of the hall hollered out and said, “Where in the hell is Pearl
Harbor?” [Laughter] We were kind of an unsophisticated group of fellows at that time.
So, that’s how I ended up at The Citadel.
And started on of course, after Pearl Harbor--to complete the first year in June of
’42 and started back in September ’42, when I--well, I wanted to get into the Air Force,
but they wouldn’t let any cadets, aviation cadets in the Air Force unless you had two
years of college. And, of course, I only had one year. So, that was changed just about
September of ’42, when they were running short and at the different aviation cadet
programs; and so, they said all you had to have was one year. So, I qualified for that. I
got in by going over to Fort Moultrie to get sworn in as an Aviation Cadet. And Fort
Moultrie, of course, was an artillery unit was stationed over there and you could get in
with one year of academic undergraduate school. And it was not the Air Force, it was the
Air Corps. We were under the direction of the Army Air Corps. All the way through
Pearl Harbor was the Army Air Corps. I mean, all the way through the four years or so
that I spent in the Air Force, it was under the command of the Aviation Air Corps. I got
into that and got sworn in at Fort Moultrie. And then I had to be on my own, of course,
had to get to Nashville, Tennessee, which was a pre-flight school for the eastern part of
America for aviation cadets. And I was supposed to ship out to Maxwell Field at
Alabama to flight training--to start off flight training at Maxwell Field, as most cadets did
who were in the Army Air Corps. But I had a bad strep throat and was in the infirmary,
so I couldn’t ship out with my group. And I got out of the infirmary a couple of days
�Burnet Maybank
3
later, and they were gathering up all of the cadets that didn’t ship out with that group to
Maxwell Field to ship out to--which we didn’t know, but when we got on the train we
found out that we were headed for Los Angeles; that was a staging area for aviation
cadets on the west coast.
So, we spent seven days on the train, as I recall. Which, I was lucky, actually,
because I had never been west of Ashville, North Carolina. [Laughter] And to see all that
Indian country, which I’d always as a little boy heard about and whatnot, be a part of it
for seven days on the train. It stopped off and on and gave you a sandwich or something,
and you could see the Indian groups and all out there.
So, when they got to Los Angeles, the field out there was at Blythe, California
was a suburb of Los Angeles. And that was where our group disembarked at Blythe,
California. And we were in pre-flight school at that point in time, which means we got a
uniform--a private’s uniform and assigned to barracks; which was nothing but chicken
wire around the top of about four feet of boards--and had chicken wire around it and had
a roof on it. And about twenty in each one of those so-called barracks, which was nothing
but chicken wire -- chicken coop thing with a roof on top. And stayed there for, I guess it
was--if I’ve got my memory right, we stayed there for about three weeks in pre-flight
training.
And then part of us, me included in the group, shipped to Blythe, Arizona or
Blythe, California, which was on the Colorado River. And we stayed there for a couple of
three or four or five weeks in pre-flight training. That was flying--learning to fly the little
P-51, they called it or it looked like a regular P-51; only, of course, it didn’t have any
horsepower to it and it could hardly get off the ground. And so, we stayed there.
�Burnet Maybank
4
And then from there, I went to--I’ve forgotten the name of the fields--in
California, north of Blythe, north of Los Angeles and then stayed there. And then went to
Roswell, New Mexico, where we stayed for about three or four weeks; got our wings, and
then the group was shipped to Moses Lake, Washington, and that’s where we learned to
fly the B-17. A B-17 was a four-engine, of course, aero plane driven plane. And we
stayed there flying about a week or two or maybe three, flying around Spokane,
Washington; that area. And then we flew to Tampa, Florida, which was Drew Field in
those days. Drew Field was a last staging for flying for B-17s until you went overseas.
We were shipped out of there after about three weeks up to Savannah, Georgia,
which was the jump-off point for B-17s to head to Europe. And we were supposed to fly
over to Europe by the southern route, down to Key West and then over to South America
and then, of course, to the Atlantic. But they came out with some modification on the B17s that we were supposed to fly. So, they told us that we weren’t going to fly; we were
going to take the train on up to New York Harbor where the Queen Elizabeth was taking
on 14,000 troops to make the run. And we got up to New York--actually we were on the
New Jersey side of the harbor, and we were assigned twenty-one--man, we were Second
Lieutenants. We were assigned twenty-one men to the little tiny room. Seven little
hammocks on three sides of the room. We had twenty-one in the room.
And I remember one fellow from the Midwest somewhere, after we had been in
there for a little while, he started getting sea sick and throwing up and it was terrible. And
I just started cleaning up after him. And finally some guy in the group got mad as hell
and he told him--he almost slapped the guy in the face and said, “What are you getting
�Burnet Maybank
5
sea sick for, you jerk?” He said, “We are still tied up to the wharf in New Jersey. Why are
you getting sea sick?” So that calmed the fellow down, I guess, and he quit throwing up.
And then the next day, we took off from the port that we were in--the harbor that
we were in on the New Jersey side. We took off and went up through the New York
Harbor. And then we turned. We couldn’t tell then, of course. We were stationed seven
flights down. We were Second Lieutenants. Not much respect for Second Lieutenants in
the Air Corps then or probably since then. And we got out in the harbor. And after
awhile, people were out on the decks thinking, “Oh boy, this is wonderful. This weather
is going to be great over in Europe.” It was balmy and the wind wasn’t blowing. Nice and
sunny. People were lying out on the decks. And a lot of the infantry and enlisted men
slept--they weren’t given rooms. They were sleeping lying out on the upper deck. “This
was going to be balmy. This is going to be great.”
Well, of course, we didn’t know it, but, naturally, when they left the port of New
York for Europe, they didn’t draw a straight line or every submarine in the German Army
or the Navy would have been stationed along that route. And there wouldn’t have been
any ships get underway that way, they would have all been torpedoed. Turns out, we
were thinking the weather was going to be balmy in Europe. We were laying off of
Miami, Florida or somewhere. [Laughter] Then they made a turn, of course, across the
Atlantic. And I guess it was about five or six days later, we ended up in the port of
Glasgow, and up the river -- whatever that river’s name was, I have forgotten--and
disembarked there at that Scottish port.
And the trains were waiting for us. And our group got aboard a train and ended up
downstream of Scotland, in a little town called Bury, St. Edmonds, where the English had
�Burnet Maybank
6
renovated--St. Edmonds was an early Christian Saint. And there was a big mound in the
middle of town, which he was supposed to have been buried in and then they built up a
big mound of dirt right over it.
JB: The name of the town was Bury, B-u-r-y?
BM: B-u-r-y. Bury just like as if someone was buried there, Bury, St. Edmonds.
And so, we were stationed just about five or six--not that long, I guess about two miles
outside of town. And there were no airfields in England at that time, but maybe one or
two in the whole country. We took off and landed each time as did every other aircraft
that was assigned to all the different fields--took off down a dirt runway. And they
planted cabbages and turnips and all right alongside the dirt runway, so the food was, of
course, of very much concern of the English Government and the American Government.
So, everything was planted right along--about ten feet was left right in the middle of the
runway for like an aircraft, like a B-17 or aircraft fighter planes, too, all took off down
runways and then took off up into the air. And we couldn’t fly direct, of course, to our
bombing runs, wherever they were supposed to be, because we couldn’t fly direct,
because you had to get up in the air of about 10,000 feet before you could turn and went
across the English Channel. Because right on the German/French side of the English
Channel, of course, were hundreds of ack-ack guns that were deployed to shoot down
aircraft or to shoot down ships that had violated and gone across the territory of the
British--of the English Channel. So, we had to just fly back and forth for three or four
hours trying to get up enough altitude. We were loaded with 10,000 pounds of bombs.
There were usually ten--ten of one-pump bombs or other times there were 500 pound
bombs, and there were about 500 of those in the aircraft.
�Burnet Maybank
7
JB: And you were flying in formation? Am I right?
BM: We were making up a formation to get ready to turn over the English
Channel, up at around 11,000 feet. That altitude, a German aircraft gun 105, I think they
were called, could get up to about 10,000 feet, but they had no control of the air. And so
you could see them puff, puff, puffing, exploding all around you out there, but we were
up too high so there was no damage. I never saw a plane get hit by one. But a lot of them
used to get up that high and burst, and then occasionally would make little small--the size
of nickels or dimes, I guess, just little holes in the aircraft; but I never saw anyone that
ever had any real problem. And then when you got across the English Channel, you took
off for whatever target was assigned to you to bomb for that particular day mission.
We were always told that the English bombed at night. They didn’t have the
sophisticated bomb sights that we supposedly had, so we bombed in the daylight. And we
were always told if your target was obscured, for which it frequently was, of course, by
bad weather over the English Channel and the German Channel up in the Balkans and all,
if it was bad weather, you weren’t to just indiscriminately drop your bombs. You were
supposed to go to a second target. And if that was, the bomb was out of sight, you went to
a third target. And if that didn’t work out and everything was all cluttered up and you
couldn’t see the ground, then you were supposed to go back to the English Channel and
jettison your bomb load in the English Channel and then go on back to Bury, St.
Edmonds or whatever field you came from and land. But I never saw anybody jettison
their bombs. [Laughter] I mean, I don’t think they followed that advice very well. We just
took a chance on maybe we hit a German target and bombed there.
�Burnet Maybank
8
So, that was about it, I guess. I was on seven of the first eight or nine raids to
Berlin, which was a tough target. Because it was so far inland from the English Channel-that when you came back, you were in real danger coming back into Bury, St. Edmonds
or wherever you were going, whatever field you were assigned to. You were in danger of
running out of gas just in sight of the English Channel. So, that was a factor that had to be
figured into the thing and why we didn’t hold up our bombs [Laughter] We bombed them
and then headed on back. I was never on but one mission that was aborted all the way.
Otherwise, we found a second target or a third target and then dropped the bombs.
I was on about the seventh out of the nine Berlin raids, which was pretty tough
because we were in danger, really, of running out of gas or fuel before we got back to
England. So, only two or three missions stand out in my mind. And one, as I said, was the
one that we made with a small number of aircraft and we had to go over the channel at
10,000 feet. But then we had to get back down low because we were assigned to bomb
the target that was known as Penamunde, which was actually in Denmark and we weren’t
at war with Denmark. But we turned back to bomb--drop our bombs at Penamunde and
we found later that it wasn’t much of a place to go, we had to get down low to even see it.
It was German buildings that we were told had been dedicated to building up the atomic
bomb. So, a lot of the German scientists and all were stationed at Penamunde, which
wasn’t much of a target to see. But we found later, it was a big target to bomb. Because I
think we kept the Germans off balance on the atomic bomb by bombing like we had done
at Penamunde, which was in Denmark, as I say actually, but the Germans didn’t care
about violating Denmark’s sovereignty and we sure didn’t, so that was the way that
happened.
�Burnet Maybank
9
Then another mission that I remember of consequence was the one that we
bombed in southern France at Granoble, southern, which was south in France, and was
supposedly under the control of the free French, which would mean that they weren’t
helping the Germans. So, we were to drop down at Grenoble, we were to drop down to
about a thousand feet from our 10,000 feet we would have been at to cross the Channel.
And in the bomb bays, instead of bombs were these big heavy-duty canvas bags that were
full of small arms, ammunition and maps and regular ammunitions and pistols and rifles
and all. The Free French were out where they gathered. You could see a lot of commotion
down there because we were only at about 500 feet. They would pick up all the bags that
we were dropping of ammunition and all, and they were to fall in behind Grenoble--what
was the name of the--Cherbourg--where the Americans were being held up at Cherbourg
by the German Aircraft and Army and all that was stationed in those big bunkers across
the Channel from England. And the Germans had our infantry troops and artillery all held
up there, because they were in bunkers and we were absolutely exposed right out in front
of everything. And the ships, a lot of the ships that were bringing, tracking the gear in to
there for the American troops, they couldn’t get through because the tide had gone out
and we had made some sort of mistake on the tide and we hadn’t--and also we had made
a mistake, or we hadn’t realize how heavily armored the water was. They had all sorts of
steel spikes and things thrown in. And small aircraft carriers like thirty and forty feet long
and twenty feet wide, they couldn’t get in and they were all held up on these spikes and
things and all. And trying to walk and swim, and by all holding their rifles up in the air,
and trying not to get them too dirty. These free French were supposed to fall in behind the
German Army and create a problem for them.
�Burnet Maybank
10
Later on we found out that, after I inquired around about how our mission had
gone, they said it hadn’t gone very well because the damn free French had taken all of the
armor that we sent and had marched up close to Paris so they could make a show of
power, when the Americans did actually break through and head up toward Paris. The
free French fell in line with the French flags and all, like they had done [Laughter] like
they had done the liberation. When they actually had done nothing, and holed up their
army, what they had of an army, in Grenoble, France, in southern France. And then the
gall of this magnificent entry into Paris, like the French had liberated the country from
the Germans; when, in fact, they hadn’t done a damn thing but hide out. So that made a
lot of Air Force guys kind of mad that we had taken our chances on that fairly dangerous
route by going down the roads we had; and then, you know, dropped out canvas bags and
then headed back to England. So, that was the two missions that I remember most of all, I
guess.
JB: Well, how about D-Day?
BM:
Well, D-Day was a--I was back in America. That was when the war was
over when D-Day--.
JB: No, I meant D-Day when you landed--?
BM: Oh, oh, oh, when we had two missions which had never been done before-well, our group did. I understood the other B-17 group had done the same thing. We were
awakened. And this room was about half the size of what this room is and about the same
length. And we had about twenty cots, steel-lined cots, where we slept. And they woke us
up. Come to get coffee and start on a regular mission around 2:00 in the morning. It was
daylight actually. And, too, as you know up north, far north like that it stays daylight
�Burnet Maybank
11
almost all night. And so, we were woken up about 12:00, which was a couple hours early.
Told to get up and go in or a briefing and get some coffee and powdered eggs, which is
what we had for breakfast; so, we did that there. We were told that the American forces
had--were invading the French coast at that time and they had already started in and it
was too late to turn back. And they had been held up for almost a day or a day-and-a-half
by Eisenhower because the weather report was so terrible. It was just heavy winds, rain
and whatnot. We almost would have cancelled and had another date set, but for
Eisenhower. He was sitting on pins and needles whether to go or not to go. And the
reason they did not wait it out and why they took a chance on it was that it would have
been thirty days more before we would have gotten the right tides. So, they went ahead
on in, even though the weather was perfectly terrible and whatnot. So we made our run
and dropped our bombs on the territory behind the Germans troops at Cherbourg and
whatnot, and then turned and headed back to England. When we got back, we--.
JB: When you first -- when the troops were-BM: They were invading. You could see the--.
JB: This was essentially around Normandy?
BM: Normandy. You could see hundreds, I guess thousands of the small vessels
and all, you know, that had infantry troops on them and artillery troops and cavalry
troops and whatnot. And they were trying to fight their way into the land and get out of
the terrible cross-fire that the Germans had set-up; just like duck soup, you know? Just
like the troops in the water and the tide going out and all and these bayonets and things
sticking up out of the ground which were keeping them from coming into land. They
were getting out in to three and four feet of water and having to walk through the water
�Burnet Maybank
12
out to the beach and then as the infantry, cavalry and people were saying, “Get your asses
off this beach! Get up! Close in behind the hills as you can!” They had regular patrols
with loud speakers, “Get off the beach!” You could see a group that was straggling along
and they would go right up to them, “Get off the beach or we’ll shoot you!” You know,
they were hollering at them. Because those guys were hunkered down and were terrified.
So, we made our run and dropped the bombs just behind the German lines. Back to
England, we went. When we landed back at Bury, St. Edmonds, we were told get some
coffee. And they will always give you a drink of whiskey, if you wanted it, which I
always did. [Laughter)] And they said get on back to your barracks and get some sleep
because you are going out on a second mission around 4:00 or 4:30. So, we said well we
never did that before; but, you know, we followed command. So, back we went to get
some powdered eggs and some coffee and back to the barracks, which was nothing but a
round, half-rounded Army thing which was split in half and we were about twenty troops
that slept in those things. Why we can’t let the criminals in America today have that same
kind of treatment, I don’t know. Because we have to have them in nice air conditioned
and heated barracks and all like that. But, anyway, we got back there. And then about
three or four hours later, we got a knock on the tin wall; because that’s what they were,
just tin barrack things. Got a knock. “Get out. Go back for some more briefing.” And so
we went back and were told, “Well, you haven’t done it before but the planes, all the
planes had been renovated and re-routed and filled up with fuel and everything, You’ve
got a second mission.” So, went back and the second mission was just basically the same
thing as the first mission. It was down low, fairly low level and drop your bombs right
behind the German bunkers and the German crossroads that the Germans were using to
�Burnet Maybank
13
go up and down the area there. So, they would find a weak spot and they would get back
out on the highway; like they would pave roads and they weren’t very wide. But pave
roads and they would go scooting up north or south, wherever their Luftwaffe had told
them that the Germans were bunkered down in. So we made that second run. So, that is
about it, as far as I know.
JB: Cherbourg was later?
BM: I guess Cherbourg was in the first few days of the invasion. I’ve forgotten
now, to tell you the truth.
JB: Was it part of the whole European invasion but landing in a different part of
France?
BM: Different part. See they faked up, the American troops faked up a landing
north of where we were landing to draw the German troops up that way, thinking that
was where the invasion fleet was coming in. And they faked that perfectly almost, the
landing there. And then they went in there they did. I’ve forgotten now. Cherbourg was in
the area where the German Allied troops were landing. I have forgotten even the names
of the--Omaha. Yeah, it was Omaha Beach. So that’s about it as far as I know.
JB: Now, tell me about what it was like on those flights to Berlin.
BM: Well, I had to fly about an eleven-hour flight, because ninety-percent of that
time was climbing up an elevation to go across the English Channel. Like ordinary, a
flight to Berlin from Bury, St. Edmonds, would have been about three hours; would have
been no problem at all. But to get up to the altitude of about 10 or 11,000 feet that you
had to get to or be shot down going across the English Channel, the flight was about
eleven hours, as I recall.
�Burnet Maybank
14
JB: It took so long to climb because of all of that heavy weight of the bombs.
BM: Yeah, the heavy weight that was one thing, and all your fuel was still in the
plane, you know.
JB: Right.
BM: You know and so we had all that heavy load, which we had to carry and not
get rid of until we got to Berlin or wherever the target was that we were going. Hamburg
was one, as I remember, and Berlin was another.
JB: Even at 11,000, did the Messerschmidts try-BM: No, German fighters and our fighters couldn’t get up at that time to 10 and
11,000 feet. They had to do their work at about, no better than about 5 or 6,000 feet and
they were very agile at that altitude. But once they got up above that, they almost could
be shot down by a B-17 gunner; as there were about six gunners on a B-17. There was a
nose gunner, a top gunner, a bottom gunner, that’s where nose, bottom--top three and
then two waist gunners, which was another couple--and a tail gunner. So, we had about
seven or eight gunners in all who manned each B-17. They were on the B-17.
JB: How many planes did you have in the formation?
BRM: I--ai-yi-yi, to tell you the truth, I forgot, tell you the truth, it has been so
long ago. In each group would probably run--I see them, in my mind. I see them coming
across the sky. I would say there were about, about ten B-17s in each group. Like I was in
the 49th Heavy Bomb Group and that was about ten, ten or twelve planes in that group.
Then there was another bomb group that was the 584th Bomb Group. I remember that
number and that’s about it. And what was I going to say? I don’t know. [Laughter] I
don’t know.
�Burnet Maybank
15
JB: So you-BM: I will think of it in a minute, what I was going to say, but I can’t remember
now.
JB: Let me go back a bit and ask you: You know, as you were preparing to go into
the Air Force, what was your father’s views at that time?
BM: What was his what?
JB: What were his views about your going--?
BM: Oh, oh, oh, that was the only view he ever expressed was that if I went to the
Citadel, he would pay for it. [Laughter] But if I went to University of Virginia or
something, I was on my own.
JB: What did he say about going on active duty?
BM: He thought it was a good idea. He said, you know, “We are going to be in
war anyway. It’s just a question of when. We are going to be in the European War and
the Japanese or Oriental War. We are going to be in there sooner or later.” He was in the
Senate and, of course, he was familiar and being briefed by different groups that attended
to Congress. You know, they were looking for extra money and whatnot. So, he said, you
know, “Just go and do what you want to do.” I said, “Well, I would like to get in the Air
Force, is what I want.” You know that was sort of a romantic type of thing, you know for
a freshman at the Citadel to get in the Air Force. So, he said, “Well, if that is what you
really want to do, you get on over there to Fort Moultrie.” And he says, “I’ll help you get
aboard. I will put you on the train headed for Nashville.” And then he gave me his
overcoat, I remember that, which I put in the barracks in Nashville and, of course, it was
promptly stolen [Laughter]. And I never saw it again--so that was about it, I guess.
�Burnet Maybank
16
JB: How many total missions did you fly?
BM: I flew--I think it was around thirty-seven. I never had but one aborted. One
was when we had engine trouble and we couldn’t--we couldn’t keep up with the group.
So, we turned and went back to the barracks at Edmonds. Yeah, that was the only one.
There was about--whatever I said.
JB: Where were you when the war ended in Europe?
BM: When the war ended in Europe, I was in San Antonio--San Antone--and I
was gathered with a group there that was being gathered to go to the Pacific. We didn’t
know, of course, how long the Pacific war was going to last. The Japanese, the way they
were kamakazing our ships and all, it looked like the war might go on for a long time in
the Orient; well, you know, Japan and the different islands; off shore islands in Japanese
control. It looked like it might be going a long time, so we were keeping up our flight
training there in San Antonio to be ready to be shipped out to the new B-17s. You know,
they came up with the new models which were a little better than the old ones, but not
much. We were ready, you know, to be able to be shipped out there so we were just
hanging around. So, I played golf twice a day. [Laughter] I had a morning round of golf
about eighteen holes. I had an afternoon, 3:00 or so, round of golf. Which I never got
very good at, but I could break 90, but I never got in the 80s and all like that.
JB: Tell me where you were when you first heard about the atomic bomb.
BM: I have forgotten. I have forgotten when that was. I guess I was in San
Antone. Still waiting, you know to go to Japan.
JB: Right.
�Burnet Maybank
17
BM: We didn’t have any, you know--oh, I had gotten promoted to First
Lieutenant, too, when I came back from Europe. But we didn’t have any advance
knowledge of anything anymore than the average American who just read the paper, you
know, and figured what was happening.
JB: After it was dropped?
BM: Well, we said Thank God, because that meant probably that we weren’t
going to Japan. We were not going to be flying in the Orient. So, that pretty well--you
know, the papers and all made a point that that pretty well meant that the war was going
to wind down pretty quick now. And, of course, it did. When they dropped the second
one, the Japanese leaders saw that we were serious about ending the war and so they got
the Emperor to, you know, Hail Mary, and bow down to the American officers and troops
that were sent there to negotiate the Treaty. And we didn’t have--so after that, we just got
discharged out of Wichita Falls. That was a discharge area; where if you were getting out,
you were going to Wichita Falls. And then got out and I hitchhiked all the way back to
North Carolina. My family at that point was staying at Hendersonville. And so I got out
and, of course, with a uniform on, and I had no other clothes, of course, but a car never
went past you that didn’t give you a ride. Sometimes it was, you know, five or six miles
is all a fellow was going. And you got out of the car and stood by the side of the road and
waited for another car and you know hitchhiked a ride. Give them a thumbs-up for a ride
and everybody who passed you would give you a ride.
JB: Were you wearing a uniform?
BM: A couple of times a guy would -- not only just give you a ride; but at the end
of the day or something, if they were staying in a motel or had a house with rooms in it,
�Burnet Maybank
18
they would say come on in and spend the night with us and you would hitchhike out
again in the morning. You would try and hitch a ride in the morning.
JB: So you were doing hitchhiking in your uniform?
BM: Oh, yeah, that’s all I had. I didn’t have any civilian clothes. A uniform, that’s
all I had. And so they would always give you a ride. Or if they stopped and said, no, we
aren’t going but two miles up the road and you have got a better place where you are now
than if you go two miles up the road. So, thanks for what you are doing; but, you know,
stay where you are, because you are better off than going up the road.
JB: During all those combat missions, did you ever -- tell me, did you ever have a
situation where you lost an engine or lost two engines?
BM: No, never did. We had plenty of salt and pepper marks. Where, you know a
103 shell would break open at the same altitude about where you were at 10 or 11,000
feet and would just fragment out into hundreds of little tiny, size of nickels and dimes, we
would call them. You’d get a lot of that but I never had any problems with the plane
going down or anything like that. The only one I actually saw going down was, or knew
was going down, was I told you was Bill Daniel from Mt. Pleasant. He was a senior my
freshman year at the Citadel and he went in the Air Force too. Although, why, I don’t
know because he got a commission in the infantry or artillery, but he chose the Air Force.
When he went down in the English Channel--which they had these boats in the English
Channel and you wore their “Mae West” which they always said, “You got to put your
Mae West on when you go, if you go down the Channel.” Mae West was an inflatable
booby looking thing [Laughter] which was called a Mae West and it was like a life
jacket. It would go up around your neck and would keep your head up out of the water.
�Burnet Maybank
19
But somewhere along the line after not too long of being over there, we found out, the
word was out that a Mae West wouldn’t do you any good to keep you afloat. Because
after you were in that North Sea water, ice water for maybe three or four or five minutes,
you were dead anyway. You couldn’t exist in that frigid type of water.
JB: Then when you--am I correct that when you achieved a certain number of
missions, you would get to go back to the United States?
BM: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. You’d get to go back to the U.S.A. And that
was changed as the missions became easier and easier. Towards the end of the flying over
Germany, they were calling those missions, as opposed to those that were six and eight
and eleven months before into Germany, they call them a “milk run” because you
wouldn’t see any Messerschmidts. There weren’t any. They were all on the Russian front.
You wouldn’t see any aircraft being fired because they had taken most of those 105--I
think it was called a 105 aircraft, I mean cannon, they had taken all of those to the
Russian fronts to hold the Russians back from overrunning--they were still in the Russian
territory in Czechoslovakia and places like that. They hadn’t gotten into the German area
of German people, German houses and all. So, they had taken, and so they called those
milk-runs. So, instead of like about nine or ten or eleven flights early on, they got them so
they were flying twenty-five and then thirty and thirty-five flights because there was not
the danger there was in the earlier flights. Yeah.
JB: Tell me then, so you got home. When did you get discharged?
BM: You got discharged when you went to Wichita Falls from San Antonio.
JB: And so when you got back to civilian life.
�Burnet Maybank
20
BM: And then I hitchhiked across the country to North Carolina. Of course, then I
got my discharge papers at Wichita Falls.
JB: And when was that?
BM: And that was--I couldn’t tell you. I’ve forgotten the date of it.
JB: Still in 1945, before the end of the year?
BM: It was right about the end of the war. Right about the end of year--the end of
the time, I guess it was, yeah. Wichita Falls.
JB: Tell me what you did then.
BM: Well, I hitchhiked back and got into North Carolina and that was, I guess
toward the end of the summer, as I remember. I got back to Charleston and then inquired
around. Because I only had one year of college, inquired around about getting some
credits for the time I had at the Citadel, get some credits there. General Summerall would
have no part of it. We veterans, we World War II veterans, I forgot what they called us,
but they had a certain designation. We hated that son of--he wouldn’t give any. And
schools like Princeton and Harvard and Yale and University of Southern California had
given all of their people who had served in their capacity, in their college and then in
their capacity of whatever it was, they had given them credits for I think it was almost
like a semester for every six months or whatever it was that you served in the Army.
They gave you a six-month credit. So, if you only had one year as a cadet, I went in as a
veteran student, along with my house downtown on Tradd Street. I took about three
veteran students, who were friends of mine, about three, because my father and mother
were in Washington. So, I took about three friends. We had about three extra bedrooms in
the house, so it was the four of us in the house then as veteran students. Catching a bus or
�Burnet Maybank
21
ride a bike up to The Citadel and attend class, whatever classes you had set for the day.
And as soon as you could get out of the classes you had been assigned to and whatnot,
then you headed back downtown. And most of my time was, again, spent playing golf in
the afternoon at the Country Club. The Country Club would let a veteran student play.
You didn’t have to join. You didn’t have the privileges of the Country Club’s dining
room and parties and all like that, but they let you play for seven dollars and fifty cents.
You could play for a quarter, a fourth of a year, so that appealed to a lot of the veteran
students like me who wanted to play at least eighteen holes of golf in the afternoon. So,
that was a big help. So for seven dollars and fifty cents, we could play for about four
months I guess it was. Yeah. So that was what we did. We played golf and went to the
Citadel for classes. They didn’t have any afternoon classes at that time, as I recall.
JM: What was your major at that time?
BM: I had started off as -- my grandfather was a very beloved physician. When he
died-- and he died the week of Pearl Harbor, up in Hendersonville, North Carolina, where
he had gone for a few weeks’ vacation and he was a beloved physician. When he died the
newspaper actually had an editorial on him about how he was so beloved. My father’s
success as mayor, Alderman and all, was attributed to what a wonderful guy his father
was, my grandfather, which was Dr. Maybank. So, I was taking pre-med. But when I
came back, I just went for a regular business course. I didn’t--it looked like I would be in
college for about ten years if I was going to pre-med. So I didn’t want it. So, I just
thought I would go ahead and take a business college and then I will go to law school if I
feel like it and that’s what I did. I took a business course for a year and a half or so,
�Burnet Maybank
22
maybe two years as a veteran student and then went to the University of South Carolina
at Columbia.
JB: Oh, you went after your third year of college?
BM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn’t--I never got my Citadel ring, so to speak. I didn’t
get the four years. And General Summerall, we petitioned him but he said, “No.” He said,
“We don’t do things like that at the Citadel.” He said, “You can either do the whole thing
or tough luck. Sorry, but you don’t get a diploma from the Citadel.” Yale, Harvard,
Princeton, University of Southern California, Notre Dame or prestigious colleges worked
out a deal where they gave credits to the veteran students who were coming back from,
sometimes three, always at least about two and a half or three years, like me. But some of
them had been in, you know, the service for four years and they were just getting out. But
the General was a stickler. I remember he said, “No, Maybank.” There was about five or
six of us went into see him. “We don’t do things like that at the Citadel.” We turned
around and said, “Thank you, General.” Walked out and that was it.
JB: So you finished law school when?
BM: I finished law school in the summer of--what was it? The summer of ’45, I
guess. Then I stayed at law school for a semester so I could get my undergraduate degree.
I didn’t get it from the Citadel. I got it by going one semester to the University of South
Carolina Undergraduate Degree. And I did that after I had already gotten my law degree,
but I wasn’t sure I was going to practice law. And I said, I am this close to getting a
college degree -- a B.S. is what I got, Bachelor of Science--and so I said I better not leave
right here now, I better get that degree, and so that’s what I did.
JB: That must have been around what, about 1949?
�Burnet Maybank
23
BM: No, around ’47.
JB: ’47?
BM: Yeah, because I was three years in law school. I took the full three-year
course and I finished in ’50. So, that was in ’49, ’48.
JB: So you finished law school in ’50?
BM: I finished in ’50 because I dropped out one whole summer, because my
father was running for reelection for United States Senate. And he had--supposedly, a
really a tough race. Bryan Dorn had chosen not to run for Congress but to run for U. S.
Senate. He was suckered into that by Wilton Hall, who was the editor from Greenwood,
no Anderson. An editor from the Anderson Independent. Wilton Hall was a big Olin D.
Johnson supporter. So, he suckered Bryan Dorn into running against my father to keep
him from being on the shelf for a year or two and then running against Olin Johnson. So
that was a sly trick that old Wilton Hall pulled on poor old Bryan that he didn’t have
enough sense to know the difference. So, he ran against my father along with about five
or six other candidates. So, I dropped out to drive my father around. And in those days
the Democratic Primary, of course, was tantamount to election and you had to make the
full round of all forty-six counties. Every county had a date set for a political meeting. If
you are running for governor and the other lesser things, you had a certain date. To run
for the United States Senate, you had to have all forty-six counties, and you had to attend
the county-wide meeting, which you were running for the United States Senate. And so,
Dorn did that and along with about, there were about ten people running. I don’t know
why they thought that they could get my father’s seat, but they were after it. People were
mad about the war, for one thing, and my father thought that he was going to get a lot of
�Burnet Maybank
24
antagonism from the people in South Carolina about the war and he might not be
reelected. He didn’t know. So, I dropped out of law school and I was his chauffeur and
matchmaker, and sort of taking care of him--get him a Coca-Cola or whatever he wanted
and do the little chores that I had to do. So I took the full three years: ’47, ’48, ’49, and
most of ’50, I guess it was. Yeah. So I drove him around. That was in ’48 when he ran for
reelection, yeah.
JB: And then you finished law school in ’50?
BM: Yeah, and then I finished law school in ’50.
JB: And then you had a political career of your own for a while, right?
BM: Well, not for a little while. But I got out of law school and I got an
opportunity to go to Greenville. I didn’t have any law practice in Charleston or any
connections with anybody in Charleston. Although, I probably could have done so with
my father in the United States Senate. But I chose to go to Greenville, where I got a
chance to go with a very nice firm. I had to do all the dirty work, little small things; but it
was called Haynsworth and Haynsworth and they were a top notch legal thing. And so I
went with them for two years. And then at the end of the second year, I ran for election
for the State House of Representatives. Twenty-nine people in Greenville running. There
were nine seats. I think we had in those days in Greenville, nine seats and I was one of
the twenty-nine or thirty running and I headed the ticket, so-to-speak. I got more votes
than anybody else who were running. So that was quite a little bee in my bonnet, I guess
you would call it. So I stayed there one more year at Haynsworth and Haynsworth and
then went out on my own, two or three times. And always headed the ticket in Greenville,
which showed the people from Greenville had good sense, I guess. [Laughter] And so I
�Burnet Maybank
25
then--after the third time decided the statewide thing was up. My father was dead at that
time. The statewide thing was up. So, I decided, well, I would run for Lieutenant
Governor. Fritz Hollings was Lieutenant Governor and he was planning to run for
Governor. So I said, well, not any conflict. I was in Greenville and he was in Charleston,
although we were both Charlestonians and both had gone to the Citadel; although that
was sort of a drawback, you know. Looking like we were too close together to elect a
Lieutenant Governor and a Governor, both who from Charleston with our background
and all. But anyway, I went around and said, “Well, I am running, Fritz, and that’s up to
you what to do.” So, anyway, he ran for Governor. I ran for Lieutenant Governor. About
ten people ran for Lieutenant Governor. Four or five from the Pee Dee area and three or
four from Orangeburg; in all, about ten ran. I headed the ticket again, and it wasn’t any
runoff with anybody because I got more votes than the other nine put together, so I didn’t
have to run for reelection. I didn’t have to run for election. But the first time in my life, I
didn’t have to run for the run-off. Fritz got in a run-off with Donald Russell, who had
announced for governor, as a last spur of the moment type thing. Rather stupid on his
part.
So, Fritz got quite a number more of votes than he did, so he got out and then he
hung around Washington. He never did anything in his life but hang around Washington.
Anyway, he got more votes than I did. [Laughter] He ran against me for governor. He got
more votes than I did. So, then I came back and then I had to either go back to practice
with Haynsworth in Greenville, or do whatever I had to do. So I said I am going back to
Charleston. I am getting homesick up there in Greenville. My wife was from Charleston.
She liked Greenville, but it suited her to go back to Charleston, that’s where all of her
�Burnet Maybank
26
family was. Grandparents were still even alive, so we went back to Charleston. That was
it. So that’s all I know.
JB: So what questions have I not asked you this time?
BM: None that I know of. I can’t think of anything. Oh, I did get our group, the
Heavy Bomb, the 94th Heavy Bomb Group, did get the Presidential Unit Citation, which
was a little blue box that you could put on your uniform. And then I got the Air Medal.
Leaving the European Theater of Operation, I got the Air Medal. And when I was back in
town, I got the Distinguished Flying Cross. I got the Distinguished Flying Cross, which
was quite a nice little honor. They gave out a good many of them, I must say. They gave
out a good many air medals too. But anyway-JB: The Distinguished Flying Cross, was that for a specific--?
BM: No, that was for general doing well in the combat area, you know. It was not
for any one single event that stood out. It was just for the general. That’s about it I guess.
JB: Burnet, when you came back to Charleston, you practiced law?
BM: Yeah.
JB: Was that with a different or larger firm?
BM: No, just one other. Orian Manucy and I had rented the same office building
from my wife’s father. He retired. He was using the office just to go in the morning and
get coffee and read the newspaper or something. So, he was getting out of that office--31
Broad Street. We both got in and rented the office; primarily me. He owned the office
and Chapman; he never did give the office up. The title of it. He still had the title until he
died here
JB: All right. This was good.
�Burnet Maybank
END OF INTERVIEW
Elice McCulley Graham, March 30, 2009
SDK, April 6, 2009
JB, April 13, 2009
KG, July 30, 2009
27
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3>
Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p>
<h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3>
With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li>
<li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3>
Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li>
<li>"Charleston City Workers"</li>
<li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3>
<span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span>
<ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li>
<li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li>
<li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li>
</ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>
<h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3>
<span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span>
<ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li>
<li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li>
<li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li>
</ul>
<h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3>
<em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em>
<ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li>
<li>"Women--Employment History"</li>
<li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li>
</ul>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jack Bass
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Burnet R. Maybank Jr.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1 hour, 1 minute
Location
The location of the interview
Charleston, South Carolina
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History of Burnet R. Maybank, Jr., interviewed by Jack Bass, 23 October, 2008
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Lieutenant governors--United States
Description
An account of the resource
Burnet Maybank entered The Citadel in September 1941 at the urging of his father, who had agreed to fund his college expenses so long as he attended The Citadel. He reflects on his decision to enter the Citadel and his tour of duty in WWII. In September 1942 Maybank joined the Army Air Corps and served as a B-17 bomber pilot flying on around thirty-seven missions in the European Theater of WWII. Maybank discusses some of his most memorable missions, including flying over the Normandy beaches a few days after D-Day in 1944, in some of the earliest bombing missions over Berlin, a mission against a “secret” facility in Denmark. He tells of a fellow Citadel cadet’s plane, Bill Daniel’s, going down in the North Sea. For his war service he was awarded a Presidential Unit Citation, the Air Medal, and the Distinguished Flying Cross. After the war years he returned home to become a lawyer and later lieutenant governor of South Carolina. Maybank resides in Charleston.
<span><br />With generous support from the Humanities Council of South Carolina (http://www.schumanities.org/), the Citadel Oral History Program collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort. The digital recordings and transcripts are part of The Citadel Oral History Program Collection at The Citadel Archives & Museum.<br /><br /><a href="http://lcdl.library.cofc.edu/lcdl/catalog/lcdl:23435" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Listen to the audio on the Lowcountry Digital Library.</a></span>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II
The Citadel in War and in Peace
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
The Citadel Archives & Museum
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/139
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Charleston (S.C.)