1 10 227 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/b6ea16a88ee77a8554ef5e3d15309570.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=SFLkTgCZ%7Eubvq80ONhkHYi%7Er1VvkR2Qxv71X9Y83ewzPOm4a9fj3rfGLcsHltMfyYYtlxujjHbOFhmuEedYtSVe454U-H-DMEmZ2Th1A%7EVXgH6otoDarLbzZJjm55CUDCw8yZ%7EnuZcy8i6DfBksAZUniqGqIL%7EewAXJHE8FmSvIg1ReH7t-eWPQstOXy5pI6wfn7w8rEZ1Y94ODQRmgu8jhsVhilisezZt3wn7bSC0uHqTWufkxQjq41D9Hc59o28rDOjT6AJ7PV1TA%7E5q8HPF7S6XIrWzVMZrGu2XseW35Bi6aGxDJle0G16ozRyPyLFt09gNAEZIFpHoYL5GpmZg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 655a1f3e5a08b4c2b33c4abbcd510e7d PDF Text Text ���������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of John C. West, interviewed by David H. White Jr., 14 July 2000 Subject The topic of the resource Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview, Hilton Head, S.C., 2000 July 14. Final copy prepared 2003 Jan. 27. Interviewed by Citadel Professor of History, David H. White. Transcript 16 p. Lawyer, Governor of S.C., ambassador, educator, Army officer, Citadel graduate 1942. Relates to West’s active duty service, 1942-1945, as a military intelligence officer, U.S. Army. Initial assignment, 605th Coast Artillery Anti-Aircraft, Camp Stewart, GA. Assigned to U. S. Army Intelligence, Pentagon, Washington, D.C., 1943-1945. Assigned to U. S. Strategic Bombing Survey in Japan in late 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II The Citadel in War and in Peace Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2000-07-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2189 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/5fc5de36b286685f057e0aa38f179468.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=sVHn5e8vsM1uVygh34lDOzMxQ6YwsjsGbRxsaO1Kls403YbcEQJMVkgFNOvYu9pmAGD7F%7EPNK2pFwiHkaeoToFXllkF4okRggbd40RfBDP4h%7EFwaNfNAk1%7EtnsdwX2F8gLk%7EzXIdTorYrC38gmnUHLAmk5ic1LydJ20gJ6VnbY8lCRCCvT2qctXKOv1dr%7ETETVdGYsLBmvF3KI%7EmxrvLAauWGXyBIcBtQdE1GgsAUce2TsxMkPYqRe1mTxglKkO4p2fErSD3XHPrHfV6W36EPZ5VPmcHM2IYLkApBGH21h1B6NfoT9VdwnZhH1xhmKeknXBi7C4D8fw6NvWk2kifrQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e95a930e6723056e183f7f32ef603308 PDF Text Text ��������������������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with James A. Grimsley Jr., interviewed by David H. White Jr., 4 and 6 April, 2000 Subject The topic of the resource Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Description An account of the resource Interview recorded April 4-6, 2000 in South Carolina. Final copy prepared October 23, 2002. James A. Grimsley is a graduate of The Citadel’s Class of 1942 and served as President of The Citadel from 1980-1898. This interview relates to Grimsley’s active duty service from 1942-1945 as a commissioned officer in the 77th Infantry Division, U.S. Army, in pre-deployment training and in overseas operations, Pacific Theater (Guam, Philippines, Okinawa Campaigns). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II The Citadel in War and in Peace Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2000-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2188 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/546e7972419378a6b22b90f81c0871c7.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=ECIfcQ5YFx%7E4jyk9knWix-GAy17Wl-2sUBlWfsWdyCrZdz4Y6YLW3VbyuUMU0dMcw9wmX7iSQ61-LJtvOYyTk2o9rFTtzwacs00pp4WwYCisfYKT9Yh2Oz7yD2xkVo8qVq0DZbD489YjgDoLpDH-CONMbChC72TUESS6LV30TrhhY8hHC5UENjVIjrKEo4qTPTGJpfQ969JYLRxpt-bOQ1wwttFgbcYjUbrWp-IY2focMsf0p7K7h18G%7EYPzKCFMCvah7EzB8YT6oLNQ0u0Cc3G8y%7E1EUzqWGjRFHXQaVx9LtC21cGSWJw5sclPFjptKXXdnpnCT8s-g7VsEjXcSMw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e93028ae5a3d6b92daf2f8a47daa8eb0 PDF Text Text ��������������������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Alvah H. Chapman Jr., interviewed by David H. White Jr., 20 July 2000 Subject The topic of the resource Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Description An account of the resource Interview recorded July 20, 2000 in Miami, Florida. Final copy prepared January 31, 2003. Alvah Chapman was a graduate of The Citadel’s Class of 1942. He served in the Army, and was a newspaper executive. This interview relates to Chapman’s active duty service from 1942-1945 as a B-17 pilot (lead pilot, operations officer, squadron commander), 614th Bomb Squadron, 401st Bomb Group, 94th Combat Wing, Eighth Air Force, U.S. Army Air Corps. Two overseas tours, November 1943 - June 1944 and September 1944 - May 1945. Thirty-seven combat missions from England into Germany and German-occupied Europe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II The Citadel in War and in Peace Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2000-07-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2187 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/1f9d9d70feaab3976e627d4cfa15deec.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=AZ96hV9V4q%7E0ykMjdw5Valbgdjq9H5tKKIFiwkK8ys6IRAu0zlzvtvAxxAOTZAEiLteOkCjmhPQv6VAlolusDHeWKJ62atJIzrSfFQ4vu3Qq6DMUvHm%7Em8Fleq3CikqpPGE341aSI5hDoMm8HzM0uOQY-FdAuL6Vp47lQ-B9uzYTamyMI6qaharjLftghqf4oND8FzKJd5VPJoVM%7ExBUkLwjIG570lEfNZ17%7EvV5bBxYmMMpyKnmjFwrQUUINOFgTw58cWn3eDH6VhE3BlBYWLC2U5bdd7azHXLYqwPAxOomDhbf2w8Eh8rd9Y6%7Ej6E2zYf4WNRLsfdwSzxmZccEIg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6fdbb112cd754c68d3942f1406cf3203 PDF Text Text �������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History of William M. Reynolds Jr., interviewed by David H. White Jr., 16 August, 2000 Subject The topic of the resource Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Description An account of the resource Interview recorded August 16, 2000 in Charleston, S.C. Final copy prepared January 21, 2003. William M. Reynolds Jr. is a graduate of The Citadel’s Class of 1942. This interview relates to Reynolds’s active duty service from 1941-1945 as a commissioned officer and fighter pilot in the U.S. Army Air Corps (Air Forces). Overseas tactical air support duty in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, China and Burma with the 9th, 10th, 12th, and 14th Air Forces. Seventy combat missions from 1943-1944. Aircraft flown: P-39, P-40, P-47, P-63. Student, U.S. Army Command and Staff School, Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas and U.S. Strategic Intelligence School in Washington, D.C. from 1945-1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II The Citadel in War and in Peace Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2000-08-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2186 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/51f8bf80b3c8232d25bc0ca9fe276857.png?Expires=1779321600&Signature=kLAooiDmPZ0POxMOZjb0GvACEgjWKJ8od0MRuF8FTvB%7E30w6Ux90FDhLCb58kk1C296XeGac4DNXmqJ00Gxy6vXuqkiVY5vnWrLOHtefPBZ43Nrx97T-CFWESDvU0q7oDKHlWpM%7Ei3rg6h2GkLhhwrlL-DgA6zflPbg7DzqLyGZOamRic1bFCLQFBk7GLobAVHJilTiI69LjnY1OcRjpLyMYrYxKroytSk%7ED8%7Ens6ambSV4T8pJCi1ePg7RMRRgtErqkCAzb2WlWg5GvAIi21X40fYVQcAH4mIDLGoIy2gCDpUDbg0paYlmU5mDMW4Iiq78aBXanuMxNqlRgVbeytQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a3202a02ca9e6a4fd41ca19d17e79640 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/8676fac4797ff6d60ece13d731e549c6.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=SaH-OFjLq0FlGEHaTF7CdARoOW7eGoF0LNwbARXlc88tkEUeS7PzggURrG1qkVyPPZc6zLfa9ghfvh6rzaG3FJd30Cte5cBwjUFujWO4vvauS0l7pBC-n7B7I75sfZSkimFN-2L1ZgqEGNk5J1lcaeCOS0Sqx3-UrH%7E5Ka-OBccb2TiEd0fNrz8CQLmPIUR%7E2GpgD0OzLz%7ELibCyCGziddWk5s%7EnKk4YlKev-lOpoM%7EinWEZaP6uZ54ZivhvgLDRZyBGmpdNca-G25qVM-eZ272OXuewc%7Eb-W21r7A9lbiJXfZmqMdbANNkuEQzGFwANuQLr7yCUT%7EFbY%7EBoAutVFg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 4af1ee130ab23c6c2ab5b997cee35bdc PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT – WHITEMARSH (WHIT) SEABROOK SMITH, III Interviewee: WHITEMARSH SMITH Interviewer: HADLEY WHITE Interview Date: November 11, 2021 Location: Charleston Length: 1:04:27 WHITEMARSH SMITH: All right. HADLEY WHITE: Well, good afternoon. My name's Hadley White. I'm a cadet at the Citadel, and I am part of the Charleston oral history program. I'm joined today by Whit Smith. Would you mind introducing yourself and just tell me a little bit about where you grew up? WS: I grew up right here in Charleston. I've lived here all my life. Whenever I'm giving a talk, I'll tell people I've lived in the same zip code my entire life. So it's been fun growing up in Charleston. Staying in Charleston, working in Charleston, went to the Citadel graduate of the class of 1966. I was in business administration. I did a lot of sailing prior to getting to the Citadel. And while I was at The Citadel on the sailing team, traveling with them and it led me into the profession I'm in now, which is the harbor pilots. I started here in 1969. I've been president for the last forty years and had a wonderful career on the waterfront and I have been involved actively on the waterfront right here. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Do you have any early memories of growing up in Charleston you would like to speak about? WS: Yeah, like I said, growing up here in Charleston, involved getting involved with sailing at the age of nine, racing here in the high school years and into college. It opened up a lot of doors and activities to me. My father and mother grew up downtown, so I grew up down here and played at East Bay playground right next door. It's kind of fun to see some of the old people who grew up then and still here now. I'm very active in the Carolina Yacht Club, which is right next door. You know, I was lucky that I went to public elementary school, middle school, high school in Charleston. I didn't go the private school route that a lot of people do and, knew I was gonna stay in state for college. It was a good choice picking The Citadel. HW: Did you have any siblings growing up down here? WS: Yes, three sisters. HW: Okay. What was that like living in a house full of women as the only son? WS: Well, you know, I got a wife and three daughters now, so it's sorta, I know the drill by now, but it was fun. But I was a lot, it was five years between each of my sisters and myself. So, by the time the third sister came along and my mother would bring her up to the dress parades, I was, you know, it looked like my child almost, she was two years old and I was eighteen or nineteen. We all live within a couple of blocks of each other downtown now. So I see them all the time. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Neat. Do you have any early memories of The Citadel and could you speak about, what was the attraction to The Citadel and wanting to go to school there? WS: You know, I felt the discipline would be a good thing for me. I knew a lot about The Citadel obviously living here. So that wasn't a surprise, I was there in the heavy draft years of Vietnam. So I knew that you either stayed in school or you will leave early for Southeast Asia. From that stage, you know, I felt like while we were there, it was a pretty tough freshman program in those days. We started with, I don't even remember, sixty or seventy freshmen in our company and we graduated eleven. So we, we had a pretty high attrition rate for whatever reason. But anyway, we made it through and, you know, I won't say I enjoyed the freshman year, but it was tolerable, HW: Did you ever think about pursuing a military commission leaving The Citadel? WS: You know, I did. Back then they offered you either air force or army were the two choices back in the sixties. I was in the air force ROTC and they told me that if I sign the contract, I was going to flight school and then to two tours in jets in Vietnam. And I knew I wanted to try to get into the pilot organization and they had an age cutoff of twenty-eight. So, it was going to be close. I passed on the air force contract and I signed up for the National Guard. They called me my senior year, April of my senior year. And I said, I got to graduate. And they said, take it or leave it. And those appointments were like gold back in those days. And so, I passed on it and they said, we will take the number two person on the list and there's no guarantee you're going to get in. So, I graduated, I got my notice to report to Columbia, South Carolina for my pre-induction physical for �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III Vietnam. And a week before I was supposed to leave the National Guard called and said, we got an opening. So that's how close it came from me not working out here with the pilots. I guess at that point I would have gone to officer's candidate school is what I would have done. HW: Yes, sir. WS: It allowed me to stay here. I got into the pilots in ‘69, and halfway through, they shifted me into the Coast Guard reserve program over there. HW: Could you speak a little bit about your involvement with the South Carolina National Guard and then what you did in the Coast Guard? WS: Yeah, I mean the National Guard, you know, of course I didn't go to officer's candidate school, so I just went in as lowest ranked. The only interesting thing that happened is we had a hospital strike here in—what year was that? Probably in ‘69. So we got activated. So I was on a machine gun post on Calhoun Street by the hospital for two weeks. We were living under the stadium. We were at The Citadel's football stadium living under the thing while it was going on. We had twenty thousand National Guard troops in Charleston for two weeks with dust to dawn curfews. I mean, it was, it was kind of ready to explode, but it didn't, thank goodness. After that, the pilots decided, you know, that I wasn't doing them a lot of good up on a machine gun post on Calhoun. So, I got moved into the Coast Guard and did my reserve duty there and they counted my apprenticeship training here as a lot of that. I just continued doing what I was doing right here and didn't really have to go into the Coast Guard in a full-time way at all. I did go on �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III active duty with the Army up in Fort Dix, New Jersey, which is required for National Guard. And that was advanced infantry company. And everybody there was leaving for Vietnam. HW: Well, how did it make you feel taking up arms in the same place where you grew up? WS: It was a little different experience. I mean, you know, I knew why we were there, but I mean, we were sitting up there with live ammunition and there were other National Guard units that were running security with the fire department. They were lighting fires and the fire department would respond and people were shooting at them. It was a little eerie being called up in the city of Charleston. I tell you what was really eye opening to me is when you hear a tank rumbling down Calhoun Street, about twenty miles an hour, and you think, what in the world is going on and what have I gotten myself into? But it sort of simmered down and ended peacefully. Nobody really got hurt. I mean, there were some skirmishes and a lot of arrests and things like that. HW: So your reserve time in the Coast Guard, you get to spend some time on the water I'm assuming, did that kinda make you question getting into the pilot boat industry or make you want to pursue that as a job? WS: What they did is they allowed me to have a three-year apprenticeship here. So they allowed that part of the Coast Guard to be my apprenticeship training. So I just continued doing exactly what I was doing. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: What was the attraction to the pilot boat industry? You know, leaving The Citadel with a business degree, were you hoping to do something else with a business degree? WS: I actually went into business with my father. He had a glass company right here, and then three years after I finished, the opportunity came to join the Charleston pilots. I talked it over with him and he said it was something he always would have loved to have done. He thought I ought to try it. And if I didn't like it, I could always come back with him. But, like I say, doing a lot of sailboat racing all over the country opened my eyes to what pilots do. Cause a lot of pilots were involved with racing as well. So, I thought if I could end up with a career on the water it would be a lot of fun. And that sort of was the pull to do it and to come in. HW: Was sailing something you did competitively all through grade school and high school and at The Citadel? WS: It was, yes. HW: Do you have any cool stories or places sailing might've taken you? WS: The Citadel got invited every year to the Mardi Gras Regata, which is in New Orleans. And we left Christmas day for a week with a station wagon, a credit card and eight of us down there. So we were on our own without a chaperone. That was fun. We had a lot of good times down there. And then I got to go to the national intercollegiate championships on the West Coast as part of the sailing. I qualified for that. And I went out there to represent The Citadel in the collegiate nationals. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Was that individual qualification? WS: It was, yes. HW: Heading to California, did you feel that kind of culture shock as someone who grew up in Charleston, South Carolina? WS: I was really just at the San Diego Yacht Club sailing, so, I mean, I didn't get to experience the West Coast life. I mean, I was there with collegiate sailors from all over the country. HW: Well, it sounds like you have a love for being on the water. Did you ever experience or try to get into any kind of fishing down here in the Charleston area? WS: Yeah, I mean, I grew up fishing before I got into the pilots and while I'm here and the schedule that the pilots run on as a week on and a week off. So every other week you're, you're off, you have plenty of time for fishing and hunting. I was in that world for, I dunno, twelve or fifteen years before I became president. So I live that week on week off. And then once I took over as president you're in here every day. So that's when the, the business training came into running the business from a business standpoint. One of the twenty-one of us has to be in here doing it. And you know, I always enjoyed it, enjoyed the employees that I work with and I like the challenge of running the business. HW: Do you feel like the business degree from The Citadel is what helped you once you moved into that upper level management? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: Yeah, I do. I mean it didn't focus on, on accounting, you know, but just every aspect of running the business from the PR part, the political part, the giving speeches, you know, just running the day-to-day operation. Like I said, we have twenty pilots and twenty employees and we run twenty-four hours a day every day of the year. So we're staffing this place and we’ve got turnover every twelve hours with the employees, but yeah, I definitely think The Citadel business degree helped. HW: Going back to your apprenticeship, you talked about, how you were able to do that with the Coast Guard reserve. Could you kind of give me like a day in the life of what it was like during your apprenticeship before you officially had a job with the Pilots? WS: The apprentices have kind of like the freshman year, like The Citadel. And a lot of what we did back then is I put you on three ships a day for three years. So you're traveling with a fully trained pilot and everything he's doing, you're doing with him, just kind of shadowing him. Like I said three ships a day will eat up a good bit of your time, day and night. You get one weekend off a month. Other than that, you're here. You’re either running the boat, you're either dispatching or you arrive in ships with pilots. So it's a pretty intense program that we have. I mean, you miss every meal at home. And I think my nickname was the Phantom because my wife never knew where I was. HW: Did you have anyone that gave you a hard time when you were the newbie during your apprenticeship? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: Yeah, the then president had gone to The Citadel for two years before World War II. And, I think it was just a continuation of the freshman year in his mind. But I remember asking if I could get off to go to a funeral and he said, “no, there'll be other funerals.” And I said, “okay, I know the drill. I'm just gonna do what I supposed to do and not ask for any special treatment. And let's just get through this thing.” HW: So was there any coworkers that you really bonded with during your apprenticeship? WS: There were three of us that went through the apprenticeship together, and one of them was a Citadel graduate as well. So we kind of knew the drill and, you know, hung around together when we had free time, but he was familiar with what we were going through. HW: So do you feel like you were able to handle the stress and demands of that job after the knob year at The Citadel. Did you feel like you were ready for it? WS: Yeah. I mean you sort of saw what they were doing and what was being required. And it was just suck it up and let's just get through it. And it really goes pretty quick. I even tell the guys now we don't have any apprentices now, but we just got through with some a year ago and two of them were Citadel graduates as well. So, I'd say half the group down here is Citadel graduates. So, it's, everybody kind of knows what we've been through together. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Once you finished your apprenticeship and moved into a full a full-time job with the company, could you speak a little bit about what that was like, and any of the changes you might've seen? WS: Yeah, I mean, I've been here fifty years now. I mean, we started out with all wooden boats. We now have all aluminum. We used to be in the building across the street. This is a relatively new building right here. This is ten years old. The ships are not nearly as big as they are now. A big ship back then was probably six hundred feet. A big one now is thirteen hundred and sixteen thousand containers on board. We didn't have any container ships when I started, it was all breakbulk, pretty much hand loading hand store in the ships. I was lucky to see the breakbulk years and the end of that. And then I saw the introduction of containerization. So that was kinda neat to be there on the beginning of it to see what it's grown to. HW: So based off my understanding, the pilot boats kind of lead the larger cargo ships through the Harbor. Could you speak a little bit about in detail, kind of like what your duties and responsibilities are? WS: Well, yeah. What happens is the pilot boats are really the transportation that gets me off shore. We're boarding ships about eighteen miles off shore. So the boats take us from this dock, eighteen miles out, and we actually go alongside and climb up a rope ladder and get on the ship. You meet the captain. He turns the ship over to you and you do everything he's been doing at sea. You're bringing the ship in, but you're telling them where to go, how fast, what courses to stay on. The bridge team totally turns everything over to you. So you're navigating the ship in. And of course the captain's there and the �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III mates, but what they're doing is they're hiring a local expert to get them in and get them out of the port. HW: What is it like climbing up the ladder on the side of a boat that sits a hundred feet or more out of the water? WS: That can get your attention. You know, on a blue bird day, it's pretty routine. You know we're on boats on about one hundred twenty hours a week, from just running back and forth. We're handling right at forty-eight hundred ship movements a year. The ladder is the tricky part. I mean, the boat, if you remember last Saturday or Sunday, when we had that, that front coming through and it was blowing, we had gale winds. We were off shore boarding in forty mile an hour plus winds off shore. That's when it could get dangerous. I mean, if we fall, the chances of survival are not going to be great. In my career, I haven't had anyone go in the water off shore, believe it or not. And during that time, we've had eight to ten pilots killed in the last ten years nationwide doing that, making that transfer. But we put in a lot of training. That's what you do doing those apprenticeship. When you're riding with somebody and we got a lot of safety equipment that we're using, flotation coats blow up and lights come on and transponders go off. So, I mean, we've done everything we could do. If you go in to try to be able to locate you. We train with the Coast Guard, with helicopter transfer, but at the end of the day, you know, to us, it's pretty routine. I mean, it's like walking up and down the steps, but to you, it, you know, it'll get your attention because you're not used to doing it. But you know, it's kind of like climbing to the second story of your house on a rope ladder on and off of every ship. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Do you feel like the longer you've been in the industry, the more safety has become a priority? WS: Oh yeah. Yeah. Safety has really come to the forefront, but what's interesting is the rope ladders, how they did it a hundred years ago and how they're still doing it. It's just the easiest way to make that transition. And a lot of people say, well, why don't you clip on and have something connected to you? Well, I'm connected to somebody I've never met and he's from a third world country and he might not speak English. And, and I'm now tethered to him. And if I needed to do something different, you need to have the freedom to be able to do it. But every group in the country worldwide does it the same way. I mean, it isn't unique to just Charleston. HW: What has the interaction been like with some of those deckhands that may be from a completely different country and may not speak English? WS: You know, as far as the transfer of the boarding and disembarking, I mean, that's, that's the same worldwide. The language barrier is always a denominator of a third world country. Whichever the cheapest labor was coming from is what we're dealing with on deck. I mean, English is a universal language spoken on ships worldwide. I'd say the toughest ones still out there is China. And you'll be speaking to them and they'll just be nodding and saying yes. And in a lot of cases, they don't have a clue what the hell you're telling them. But what I always told apprentices when I was training them is as if I was going to port or if I'm going to starboard, I'm pointing the direction I'm talking and we have indicators up there to see, either you look at the guy staring and see, if you tell him to go port or to go left, you look at him and see if that's what he's doing. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: Or you look up at the rudder indicator. And so I find, they never teach you anything. You have to look at those instruments and double check on what's going on. Cause I can't tell you how many shifts over my career you would have been on and you say, right. And they go left. And if you're coming down the Cooper River from North Charleston, it's a series of, of left, left-hand turns that you're biting off coming down. And the first time you go right after having done all these lefts, invariably, you know, just not paying attention, he goes left again. Or if you're making that turn for the bridge, we don't have time to recover if he's putting the rudder the wrong way. We did a lot of hand signals. A lot of some of the early ships had blackboards on them and, if the course you needed to steer was three hundred, you'd write it on there. You'd get it swinging to the right. He put left rudder on to slow it up. And when you told him to steer a three hundred and when he looked at the compass, he was on three hundred. I mean you'd take the thinking away from him. But we're doing, have a lot more electronic carry on computers and things like that now with electronic charts on them. And that's totally different than what I grew up with. I mean there's a lot more advancement there and technology. HW: So once you've finished a boarding process and you're on the bridge, are you the only person, you know, in control on the boat? Or is there a team of people assisting you? WS: No. I mean, I can get up there and on a foreign ship, I might have a quartermaster or helmsman. That's, who's steering, you know, in other words, I don't take the wheel and drive it like an automobile. I'm speaking to him and I'm telling him what to do. And he's the one actually turning the wheel. So, I'm handling all of the speed up or �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III slow down, I'm talking to a mate and I'm telling him to go half ahead or slow ahead, or what have you. I got radars and all these different electronic navigation equipment available to me. But I'm the only one there from our group on board. The captain may or may not be up there. I mean, sometimes it's as many as, I mean, as little as three people, myself, the helmsman and a mate, or it could be two to three or four crew member up there to assist if I need them. WS: But at the end of the day, they're listening to everything I'm telling them. They’re not saying, “I don't think that's right. I think we need to do this.” You just tell the captain “listen, either we could do it my way. We could do it your way. And if we doing it your way, you put it in the log that I do not have the control anymore.” I'm going to call the US Coast Guard and say, “we got a hazardous condition going on. We got a master who now wants to be the pilot,” and they're going to shut it down. I mean, it just, isn't going to be a problem, but they really look forward to having you aboard. They look forward to giving you the control. In a lot of cases they have never been here before. So I know what kind of volume of traffic we have going on. I know where the dredges are we gotta pass. We have sort of a master pilot exchange where we exchanged information when I first get aboard and he tells me if there's any, any navigational problems that I need to know about with the ship, if the engines, for some reason, we can't slow down, we've got to give them ten minutes notice. You know, he tells me some things, I tell him some things, but at the end of the day, he turns it over to me and I bring the ship in. HW: Do you feel the stress of that moment when you take control and you're driving a ship that's worth millions of dollars and has millions of dollars of cargo on it? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: You know, I think I probably did on that first week, I was with somebody else. I was always with a senior pilot for three years. And then all of a sudden you've taken all your license exams. I mean, all your exams with the Coast Guard and the State of South Carolina. And the first time we assign you on your own, I mean, you don't have somebody else to say, “well, what do you think about this? Or how does this look?” I mean it just starts, it starts sinking in pretty quick. I mean you start in the first of the year and we were in folk season and the first couple of jobs you get on a zero visibility, I mean it can be an eye-opener for that young pilot. Then we try to help them and work with them as much as we can. But at the end of the day, that the way we are set up is we're individually licensed from the State of South Carolina. So if one of my pilots is bringing a ship in this afternoon and had a mechanical problem and ran aground or hit the bridge or ran into another vessel, why should Whit Smith's career be ended because of his accident? So you're individually licensed, and we've associated those individual licenses into a group. But at the end of the day, it's your license on the line. HW: Did you ever have any issues that scared you a little bit moving into the port? WS: You know, I was aground twice in my career, both times were due to a mechanical failure. One time was on a Chinese ship and zero visibility and the radar went out and they didn't understand enough English to help me try to get it through. And so we were aground for two days till we could get it off, but it wasn't deemed that I really caused the thing. HW: So there was no repercussions for you for that situation? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: Well, I mean, there was a lot of writing letters and going to hearings and things like that, but at the end of the day, nothing happened to me. HW: Technology is constantly growing in the world. Do you feel like that's implemented in the cargo ships as well to help you with your navigation moving into the port? WS: Yeah. I mean, you know, of course, you don't even know what a lot of these things, I mean, I grew up in the era of when the Navy was here and I had a secret clearance and we did all the nuclear submarines, all the attacks subs. We worked in codes every day and it was kind of fun having that part of the business that we don't have anymore. I mean, growing up, getting to drive submarines. But like I say, we don't know what's in a lot of the containers as far as hazardous cargo. There's been some talk about us carrying nuclear detection devices in case if Homeland Security wanted to know what's, what potentially could be on board before you get that ship into port. So, you know, we can be on the forefront of helping with some of that, but we worked closely with the Coast Guard, Homeland Security, and people like that. I go to a lot of meetings and make decisions for the group. And a lot of times the group doesn't even know that I've made these, you know, if we have a situation going on and they want to keep it quiet. I mean like a handful of times a year, we're bringing ships in with spent nuclear waste on them. And everybody knows the drill when it happens, but we'll put a fake name on the list in there. So if you look at the list, you could log onto our site and see what ships are moving, but you can't see the name of the nuclear one we’re moving, there is a lot of security around something like that. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Have you ever been boarded by the Coast Guard or found out later that you were maybe bringing a ship in that had something illegal or something it wasn't supposed to have in there? WS: Yeah, I'd say in the eighties and even into the nineties when drugs were really big and moving in ships a lot, it wouldn't be uncommon for the DEA or Coast Guard to be boarding with me. We'd actually take them with us on boats. You know, they're in full combat gear and weapons. And, you know, I said, listen, guys, let me get up the ladder first. And if there's going to be a shootout, I don't need to be in the middle of this. So I'd get to the top of the ladder. And the crew said, “what's going on or who is this?” And I just said, “these are some other people that need to be here.” And they go to the engine room, they come to the bridge with me, they'd round up the crew. In other words, they had a tip that there was something on that ship. Dogs are waiting at the dock, but they weren't going to leave here until they found what they were looking for. So on foreign arrivals, I'm the only one on and off before customs clears it. So, you know, we get to the dock, customs is going to kind of come aboard and clear that ship before they can start work, but we were allowed on and off and they might be with us sometimes, sometimes they weren't. I mean, the Coast Guard will just call and say, “we need to board with you tomorrow morning at three in the morning,” or what have you. And we don't go into, “what is it,” I mean, we've just been through that drill so many times. We'll get you out there. We'll get you on, y'all do your own thing and everything will be fine. HW: So when they start that search of the boat, is it a container-by-container search? I mean, that can take a long time. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: You know, as my recollection, they will be looking for stuff that a crew member might've brought a board and had in his state room, or it could very well be in the containers, but if they had a tip that that ship was coming from Colombia, South America, or one of the South American countries, and they had a tip that the drug could be on board, they will go find it before it left here. I never, we don’t stay around to watch the search go on, we're leaving to go to another job. But I mean, they might know it's on a container on board or it's in the number two hatch or something, but it's usually a tip is how they get the information, how they find the stuff, HW: Oh, working with the Coast Guard that much, do you feel like he had a pretty good relationship with the Coast Guard and the guys stationed down here in Charleston? WS: Yeah. My executive assistant is the ex-captain of the port who ran the Coast Guard here in Charleston. So we have a close relationship, and anything that's sticky, I can just turn it over to him. They all talk the same language and he can help get to the bottom of it. But yeah I've had a Coast Guard or ex Coast Guard captain in here since 1982, working with us on a daily basis. You know, and those days I had a contract with the Navy. So the Coast Guard, retired Coast Guard captain would either, he would help on the Navy contract side or whatever government agency we were working with. But yeah, we talked to the Coast Guard every day about something, buoys out of position or things they can help us with. And if we got a hurricane coming, I mean, I'm in meetings all day long, every day, planning it until it gets here and through, and then getting back open again. But they looked to us for a lot of information. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: When hurricanes roll in, what's a contingency plan for that? You guys don't have to bring the ships in and when you know that there's going to be a lot of chop out there? WS: Everything that's in has got to go, every ship that's in port is going to, they're going to get it out ahead of time. And so, you know, we got sixteen or eighteen ships in here, we’re going to have to get them out. They want to stay until the last minute unloading, which puts us a little behind the eight ball because we're the last people to come back in before it hits. And now the employees that have been around in the boats got to get home. We moved the boats up the river and keep people on them. We gotta round up the cause, we had to close up the office. If it's bad enough, we're going to change the telephones to somewhere else so you can still find out what's going on. I stay in town. My executive assistant and we’ll be in town and we'll be in a command center sometimes with the Coast Guard, just calling the shots and then as soon as it's over, they want to get it rolling as quickly as they can. HW: Well, obviously you were down there in the eighties. Could you speak a little bit about hurricane Hugo and some of the effects that had on you? WS: Yeah, I mean it was a mess. My wife and the children stayed, we lived downtown and it felt like the houses would come apart because you know, we thought it was coming ashore at one o'clock in the morning and it sped it up. It came in early at 11:30 or something like that. And the house felt like it was going to come apart. And then I'm thinking, “oh my God, if we got two more hours of this, it's not going to end well.” And she said, “the record's going to show we drowned but right before we drowned, you �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III were strangled for making me stay”. You know, I was able to walk down to the office the next day, we still had a building. The boats were up the river and they came back and were telling me what they saw on the way back down. And we had no electricity for three weeks, either at home or here at the office. And we were running on generators, portable generators in the van. We got the built-in generators that run everything now. If you've never been through one there's two or three things you need, you need a lot of cash because the ATM machines don't work. You go to the grocery store, the credit cards don't work. So, unless you have cash, you are kind of dead in the water. You need water, you need ice. It's helpful if you've got a generator. If you have a generator you need fuel, you need to have gas. I mean, we got diesel one here that's all tied in, so that isn't a problem. But it's the things you take for granted, to me, it's one thing to go to the grocery store. But if you can't pay for anything, they're not interested in work, they're like next. All the buoys in the harbor were out of place. You know, I had twenty-eight Navy ships that wanted to get back in here cause they had seventy-five hundred people on board and they needed to get home to check on their family. So we had to figure out how to get them back in without any buoys. Then we went daybreak daylight only for the next two weeks until we could get buoys in place with lights on them. You just sort of struggle back and do the best you can and open up a terminal at a time. HW: You feel like the government's response was appropriate and helpful after everything that happened with Hugo? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: I think it was a learning curve for them. I lived two doors away from Joe Riley, the mayor. I always figured that we were either gonna be first with electricity or last. And of course we were last. I could walk next to him and talk to him if we needed to get us a special thing done or assistance or things like that. It helped us prepare more going forward having been through a major hurricane. We sorta had sister associations identified that if we needed them to handle something. You know, whether it would be Norfolk for a call somewhere in Florida, depending on what places had or hadn't been hit by the same storm. I’m using a thousand gallons of fuel a day. So I mean, we have to pre put all that kind of stuff in place. So when it's over, we gonna have a week's worth of fuel before we can get a delivery made back down here. But all my employees know what they need to do. In other words, everyone can go do their thing, getting ready for hurricane, whether it's moving the boats or cars or bringing containers in to fill up with stuff that we can't leave here. And this building's built to a category three hurricane, so it can withstand 125 mile an hour winds. I mean, I've been here during a hurricane. We had two feet of water across the parking lot. It was coming ashore midday. So, I got here early in the morning and by late that afternoon, the tide was down. But you know, we didn't have any calls here, but you could just stand here and watch the parking lot. And it was kind of cool to be down here and see the harbor with all that going on. HW: Well, living down here in Charleston, it sounds like you've experienced a lot of different historical events and earlier you had mentioned submarines. Do you �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III remember when they pulled the Hunley up out of the water and could you speak about that? WS: Yeah. Senator McConnell called us and asked us to take one of the pilot boats off shore and we did. And they raised that spar, that long pole attached to the front of the Hunley, which was the detonation piece. And they brought that up and put it on the boat and we brought that back and I got invited to go out the next morning and watch him raise it. And you know, they were leaving at like three or four o'clock in the morning. And I said, “I just don't need to do that.” But I was up there when they brought the Hunley ashore from the barge when it got up to the Navy base, that was kind of neat to be there when that happened. It stopped, you know, all traffic in the river. And it was kind of funny on the bridges. All the automobiles stopped and the people got out when the Hunley went under the bridge, going up the river. HW: So you got to play a kind of a first-hand role in recovering pieces of the Hunley? WS: Yeah. You know, it was funny. I mean, they, they broke that spar in half bringing it up to put it on our deck and you know, the guys were kind of freaking out, they go, “oh my God, what are we going to tell Senator McConnell?” I said, the things you have to tell him you broke it. I mean, we're not gonna be able to fix it. It looked like a steel pipe that had just broken in half. I mean, you wouldn't have known what it was if somebody didn't tell you, I mean it has been underwater for a hundred years. But it was kind of cool that it was right there on the boat and we just sort of took it for granted, I guess. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Yes, sir. Such a big piece of history. Yeah. WS: Yeah. HW: Moving away from that, after you finished your apprenticeship, and you were working full time here at the Pilots Association, what happened that you moved you into the role of the president of the Pilots Association? WS: You know, I was fairly young. I was like thirty-six or so when I took over as president and, you know, we had a lot older pilots here because seventy is the age you got to retire. We had two family factions, you know, they were fine as long as you didn't get it. And he, you know, sort of like this and I was kind of the compromise in the middle. Both of them would support me as long as it wasn't the other. So I got kinda thrown into it early and I did it for two years and they'd burned me out. And I said, I'm going back in the river and handling shifts, which was what I was trained to do. And after two years they said, no, you're going back in the office to run the office. So I came back in and you know, like a fool I've been doing that, that ever since for them as president for the last forty years But like I say, one of the twenty of us has to come in here and run the business. And if there's not a lot of interest in somebody doing that, I guess they keep electing the one they have. I've already told them that the end of next year I'm going to retire for good. So they are gonna have to come up with a solution. HW: If it were up to you, would you still be on the river? WS: Well you know, I'm seventy-seven now, so I had to give up my licenses seven years ago, the State of South Carolina requires it. And so you do miss that part of �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III it. I mean, I can go with another pilot now and rider the ship and climb up and down the side and do all that, but it is, it is really rewarding to be out there handling ships. I mean, I was looking, I mean, we will probably see one or one will be going by before you leave, but I'll take you to dispatch in and show you, we probably have moved fifteen ships today already. And we probably have another fifteen lined up for tomorrow. I mean, it's just crazy the way it just continually flows like that. But yeah, I do miss being out on the river. HW: Could you speak a little bit about your working relationship with the South Carolina Ports Authority and what that's been like as a president of the Pilots Association? WS: I've been lucky enough to be on the State Port Authority board. I've been on there for the last twenty-two years. That's the governor's appointment that I got put on under Jim Hodges and I've served four other governors since. So, I've been on the board of planning of, you know, purchasing these big things that we need, whether it's terminals and cranes and making decisions of helping grow the South Carolina Port Authority. So I was there when they got BMW and when the plant first opened and any major thing that's come online in the last twenty-two years, I've been there to see that happen. HW: Well, could you speak a little bit about how COVID-19 has affected the supply chain issues around the world and within the United States? WS: Yeah, I mean, I think we were extremely lucky here. As far as the Charleston pilots are concerned. I called Henry McMaster and I said, “Henry, I need a favor.” And �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III he said, “what's that?” And I said, “we're on ships every day with positive cases. And if, if it starts in this group being a small group, we could shut down the State of South Carolina because there's not twenty other people you can send out there to do it.” And he said, “I agree with you. How about tomorrow?” So he moved us up, up into the January timeframe last year with the doctors and the nurses. And we got all the pilots vaccinated. We got all the employees vaccinated. We continued to wear a mask. You probably saw the note on the door. Well, we didn't let anyone in that didn't have official business in the building. Any other UPS, FedEx, they are all dropping stuff down at the bottom of the steps. We've kept everybody out of the building except for the pilots and employees. And we've had two positive cases. Quarantine kept them away. I mean two of them, well, I guess one of them wasn't, was a spouse of a pilot and one was a pilot, but he was on his time off. So it never got into the office. We continue to see positive cases on ships every day. You know, I know the port authority is vaccinating all of their people. I got about 650 people over there with the port. The Seafarers’ Ministry is doing free vaccinations for foreign seaman when the ships get to the dock. I don't think our industry has been hit as hard as other industries have. I mean, you know, the airlines all pretty much have lost a lot of people they're just starting to come back. But as far as pilots, we were probably the first pilot group in the United States to be fully vaccinated. And that was thanks to the governor. I'm not aware of any massive problem and other pilot groups. I think everyone kind of locked down as much as we did. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: In May of this year in 2021, did the ship blocking the Suez Canal have any effects down here in the Charleston Harbor? WS: No. That ship was a little bit bigger than the biggest ones we have, you know, coming into Charleston. I can understand exactly how it happened. The canal is, I don't know, five or six hundred feet wide, and they have a sandstorm coming across hitting the ship on the side. And when that happens, it starts pushing it sideways. And so you start fighting up into it, and when you do that, the tendency is you got to increase speed to get more water over the rudder. I would've guessed that ship probably grounded by the stern and then the bow ran aground and it ran aground going full ahead because he was trying to compensate for the sandstorm. He shouldn't have been there in the middle of a sandstorm. And he'd probably tell you, well, I didn't have a sandstorm when it, I mean, it was kind of a catch 22 type thing. And with something that big aground on both ends, I mean, you gotta dig it out on one end or the other to get it out of there, but there was cargo I'm sure on there for the Southeast. That ship was bound for Rotterdam or somewhere in the Mediterranean, you know, somewhere in Northern Europe, that cargo, one of them got put on another ship to come to the East Coast. Cause that ship was too big to get into anybody on the East Coast. So directly or indirectly, it probably had effect on people clearly that had stuff in those containers. I can't say that there were fifty containers or two hundred containers bound for Charleston because it would have been further down the supply chain. HW: Could you speak a little bit about any of the labor strikes that have gone on in the Charleston Port? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: We had one when I was an apprentice fifty years ago. We got a label situation going on right now with the terminal where the longshoremen are refusing to work ships at that one. And they just want to grab a bigger share of the labor aspect on the docks and South Carolina had a model where the South Carolina employees are running the cranes and a lot of the shoreside operations, the longshoremen have been doing the loading and unloading of the ships. They want the crane jobs and the state doesn't want to give up the crane jobs. There's a contract between the longshoreman and the shipping lines. The foreign shipping lines have a contract with labor. So the port authority really doesn't have a say, they weren't party to that contract. But the master contract said from the shipper's standpoint, the ILA should run the cranes. And the port authority said, “well, we built this terminal. We had a permit before you put that in the master contract.” So a federal judge ruled in favor of the port's authority. The union is probably gonna appeal that as kind of a stalemate or a standoff. Savannah, Charleston and Norfolk have the model where the state runs the cranes and the ILA runs the rest of the labor. New York, the West Coast, other places, the ILA does all of that work. That just has to be worked out. From where I sit, we're going to still bring the ships in whether they're going to the Wando, the Leatherman, North Charleston. Would it be better if we had that terminal fully operational? It would be, but at the end of the day, I don't think we're turning any ships away right now. HW: Could you speak a little bit about the construction of the Ravenel bridge? Did that have any effect on your day-to-day operations in the industry? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: It would have, if we hadn't replaced it though, the old Cooper River bridges, there were two bridges. I don't know whether you remember them, you know, before the Ravenel. They had a height of one hundred fifty feet of clearance, right now this bridge is just shy of two hundred feet. So had we not replaced it, a large majority of what we got coming in now wouldn't have fit underneath it. The Don Holt Bridge, which goes across North Charleston up there on 526, that bridge is right at one hundred fifty feet. And we'll go under it with two feet of clearance, two feet underneath the ship, on the river at the bottom of the river and two feet on the top going through. And we got an air gap sensor that tells us what the space is between the steel and the top of the water. There were a lot of ships we can't take up there or we have to bring them in on low water to get them under the bridge up there. So, we're working out calculations as to when you can move up and down, but to answer your question is without having replaced it, it would have had a major impact on Charleston. So, I think there's plans in the future to replace the Don Holt Bridge up there. HW: So the construction just made your life a little bit easier? WS: It did, except when it was going on. You know, taking the old bridges down while, the new bridge was finished before they took the old bridges down. It took a lot of coordination with the Coast Guard and things like that. HW: Was there a lot of boats and construction equipment on the water during that time period that was in your way? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: Yeah, but we always sorta had half the channel to work with. It was tight at times, but we're kind of used to that. I mean, we probably have eight dredges right now working in Charleston with the deepening. I mean, it's kind of like a slaw and run up there trying to get around them all. But I mean, we work closely with the dredge companies in the Coast Guard and the Corps of engineers and people like that. HW: So is dredging something that's constantly going on here in the Harbor? WS: Mhm. They are deepening right now to fifty-two feet inside fifty-five off shore, right now we're at forty-five. So we're going seven feet deeper inside ten feet, deeper off shore. So you take thirty something miles and go down seven to ten feet. That's a lots of mud they’ve got to move and we're probably, I don't know, two thirds of the way through right now. And then once they finish, they probably spend, I don't know, sixteen, eighteen million dollars a year doing maintenance to keep it at that depth. HW: Is that tax dollars from the state that's covering that? WS: It's the state and the federal government. Yep. HW: Okay. Could you speak a little bit about your debate at Congress on the governance of maritime issues? WS: You know, we have a national organization in Washington, the American Pilots Association, and we're a member of, and they're really the ones that are up there fighting or talking for all the different pilot groups in the country. So they are the ones on the forefront. I mean, if a particular issue is going on and they need help from [Jim] �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III Clyburn or Lindsey Graham, or Tim Scott or somebody like that, then we get involved. Or because those politicians know us better than they know the national organization. So we get brought in, but we're not up there individually. I mean, I was with the governor and Tim Scott two nights ago at a fundraiser down here. So I mean, we know them personally, they know us and, we have supported all of them throughout the time, but to answer your question on the federal level, we don't do that. Occasionally we have some involvement in Columbia at the state level, you know, we try to keep our heads down and just do what we were trained to do and not get in the middle of whatever the fight is going on. HW: Could you speak a little bit about your time as a secretary treasurer of the American Pilots Association? WS: Yeah. I mean it's more of an administrative thing. I attend all of the office meetings across the country. I know all the pilot groups in the country. When you've done it for twenty plus years you get to know a lot of people, not a lot of different pilot groups. So when somebody says, “do you know so-and-so?” Well, yeah, I do know so-and-so and we're actually having a national convention here in next year in Charleston. So we'll probably have two hundred fifty pilots from all over the country here. HW: Wow. Have you made some pretty good friendships through the people you've met in the APA? WS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we have some friends that we met, you know, back in the eighties and we've kept up with them and exchange Christmas cards and going to �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III their weddings and kid’s weddings and yeah, that's been, it’s fun to know people all over the country. HW: Well, you mentioned earlier having several children, have any of your kids thought about moving into this industry? WS: No, I got three daughters and they really didn't want to pursue that path. You know, right now everybody in the world wants to be a Charleston Harbor pilot. The last time around we had sixty something applications and took three. So it's, it's very, very competitive. So whether one of my kids would be interested or one of the other pilots, I mean, they got to rise to the top and compete against the best of the best from all over the country. You gotta be a South Carolina resident by state law. Doesn't take much to do that. Other than you just got to shift your residency into South Carolina, but that just helped slow up applications is what it does. I had a boy that six years ago we brought in that was like number two at The Citadel. I don't know whether you know him, George Campsen, he won every damn award you could win over there. He came in, that was kinda neat. His father's a state senator. They own the concession to go to Fort Sumter with the tour boat. So, I mean, he grew up on the water and a family business right here. So he had a lot of local experience that helped him, that got him through the process. HW: What would you say is so attractive about being a Charleston Harbor pilot? WS: You know, I think you gotta have a real strong pull to work, want to work on the water, be on the water. If you grew up on the water your whole life, you'd like to continue doing something along those lines. Some people are pulled to want to drive one �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III of those big ships. I tell people, if they're interested, they really need to go, in their undergraduate, if they don't go to the Merchant Marine Academy or one of the service academies, they got to go there and get a post-graduate degree. We don't have anybody here that either didn't go to a maritime college or go to one for postgraduate work that's working here now. We also tell them that if you're interested in being a pilot, you gotta be interested in being a pilot wherever that opportunity comes. So don't just focus on Charleston. I can't tell you the number of people that focused on it. It didn't happen, but the ones that had an open mind, I helped them get into Virginia and Mobile and the Brunswick, into Sabine, Texas, just because we know all those people. If you want to drive ships for a living, you gotta be able to drive them wherever the opportunity opens up. There's only twelve hundred people in the United States that are doing what I do. So, you know, there are fewer NFL football players, I mean, that's the kind of complement you're working against. So when you think about who gets into the NFL it isn't a lot of people, but we have a lot of people that will focus on Charleston. We take three out of the sixty and you know, fifty seven others, and now I've got to figure out what they're going to do. You know, and a lot of them go to sea and get a sea going license and become a captain or chief mate, or, you know, work on container ships or tankers or what have you. And if it opens up to be a pilot's job and stay in one location, then you know, that's, that's what they strive for. HW: Well, you've had a really successful career based off of what I've heard and the research I've done about you. Do you have any plans once you retire next year? �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III WS: My group sort of left it open that I could stay as president as long as I wanted to. And I wanted to leave when I still was in good shape and could travel and enjoy some things rather than the day-to-day. I hated to hang on and say, you know, we should have done this three years ago. My wife and I enjoy traveling, we've had to cancel some trips in the last year or so because of COVID. We were going to Antarctica and we had to put that on the back burner. We have been to the Arctic, out of Norway, been to Africa. I've been to the Galapagos, been to Machu Picchu. I mean, we've really been to neat places and it would be fun to continue. We're going to Russia this coming summer. So, you know, I just think it's time. I'll be seventy-eight. Somebody else needs to step up and run things. Will I miss it? I'm sure I will miss it. But I've got some wonderful people here helping me and I hope somebody comes in and treats them the same way. HW: If you could do anything differently, would you change anything about the career decisions you made? WS: No, I feel very, very fortunate and lucky to some degree that all the stars lined up the way they did. I could have real easy ended up in Vietnam, either flying an airplane or being on the ground and, you know, the life expectancy wasn't real great back in those years, even for a second lieutenant, they were probably right there with a private. So yeah, I felt very fortunate that I got in when I did, I didn't have any family in the business. I was probably the first non-family member that came in and we had to work hard to get past that stigma. Cause everybody thinks you gotta be a son or a first cousin or a relative or something. And we haven't done any of that in the last fifteen years or more. We have brought in the best and the brightest all over that we could find. �Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III HW: Are there any aspects of the interview or anything you'd like to speak about more that I didn't ask you about earlier? WS: No, you've done a wonderful job. I can tell preparing before you got here and the interview. So feel proud about that, but no, I think you, you were very thorough. I'll take you here and show you what dispatching is like right next door. It is what we do minute by minute. If there's a follow up or something you need to do that, we didn't cover, I'm usually here every day or they know where I am anyway. HW: All right. Well, that's that great. If you feel satisfied. WS: Very satisfied. HW: I'll go ahead and conclude the interview, but thank you so much for joining me today, sir. And Happy Veterans Day! WS: Same to you. Well, let's walk in here and let me show you how dispatch works. MLL 8/18/2022 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/01954810807cccbca7b767c04582973a.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=MHcGdNDZevlsnARlD9AyVkWbrILxa%7ET4T6xhaVds2tWlznVEAp7vCgwCVzODoJqD6tpBp0WA%7EBoWURb0kTiiwoaQEHnfhwO61FLY%7EOrv4jRqqiX44g40HXU75QTQnNY1eBQS7wXGTWX6yJQOZR04nBcZz6diGACae8YzMJrKH7SSS%7Efl9Vx49y-xb9HntM13WQMZoiHhoPgE1Zhn0fK%7EkwN7Xo2sEwgFt1erk2ZKJ9wR9MCUTOx3KbVw3W038vjlVzliEwJxIjEssOYkxVWye01FiTHEKZWGQKFLSHQJZJHP746UHEYj75BP5CwktJ0lc8uloiPDX3viqf-GpUROrw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 06c8acdfdc91ecc88e89bf4351c02151 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview White, Hadley W. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Smith, Whitemarsh Seabrook III Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 4 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Whitemarsh Seabrook Smith III, Interview by Hadley W. White, 11 November 2021 Subject The topic of the resource Harbors--United States and Pilots and pilotage--United States Charleston Harbor Pilots Description An account of the resource Whitemarsh Smith III, Charleston native, Citadel alum, and long-time president of the Charleston Branch Pilot’s Association, has an extensive history in the waters of Charleston. In this interview, Smith dives into his experience as a Charleston pilot and provides details of various historical events he has witnessed. As a young man, Smith chose to take the college route and apply to The Citadel rather than head to Vietnam during the war. He graduated from The Citadel in 1966. He recounts his encounters at The Citadel and discusses his time following graduation being in the National Guard, where he witnessed a hospital strike here in Charleston in 1969. Smith details the challenges which came along with his apprenticeship during the process of becoming a Charleston pilot, as they spent the majority of their time on a boat. He gives listeners insight into the day-to-day operations as a Charleston pilot on a cargo ship as well as some of his own unique experiences. This includes experiencing DEA raids of foreign cargo ships, weathering hurricane Hugo, the recovery of the Hunley, and others. At the time of the interview, Smith was 77 years old and was planning his retirement. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-11-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2011 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/a199899b0ab3aef3b876c90c9f0509bc.jpg?Expires=1779321600&Signature=QJeJLngv1dMNCXq1BmSYcgri5mz6wprE5K9CB0XjbG7T1j9PF%7E2tOOPhepvRthNcz6VlXqxPoOniUxMrm5zj0Q%7E1w-pcWdYDuDSDBIDwKB1neb959HZYXuz0lINI3A38EVP%7Evo%7EERDygUY0LHpORApQh1METvL3CwMRvXn34BSIDHNzK3cTuYhhdMgmvUOkvu6x4TVxxXRYugUAzW5bW0kETL5JQCKxzo2D20eJXSuipASSeV6oUB-EuUENvENUm8CMDBO4lZ5790AnJ-29oc-ZW9Eeyg0-m%7EUtB6RWXU5LLX8nUeAB58Of2VxPkU7qplu-Gq2vnMP49uU1ZwBZiGw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ffa8addac3de7675c69b8327eef824aa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/dda95dfac319e2a567a8ae6ece0a9620.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=mBQn085tu63xlKPk8G6f3JosGtot5O-bGhKhXJJ32NbOw186EdnSPy3TV%7EKXTRTF5i26MuGAlUvhO8OC9GeI-oP9fQaSKvJBv%7E7gp9c0K%7EGxuLpy1AvuVOkHYyfl3u%7ESSY7w7%7EFl1yUpowh8QnDyBmE7Nw7nSKJ1L8%7E2y9XhTf0EdcPKN%7EiBSZdDpS-Iwm-QcCqf5fa8lfWt1zUMNMkjAPYEx2Nd1qwT01-kLKmzJAOhvt3evHGTkf2oGqS3Dv0v4ajdwCzZDYKR4Vp9FohSopoWdRGWg0-BhklENfbciHh6qHCeP7YvU7MnQOlt3QSsO80dA211Zbr7dMiZTkeCsw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 63b2ea4c057e2a81449b38bca8208fe2 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT- RUBY MURRAY Interviewee: RUBY MURRAY Interviewer: KIERAN W. TAYLOR Date: September 20, 2021 Place: Charleston, SC Length of recording: 75 minutes KIERAN W. TAYLOR: Turn this on and check the levels here. This, this looks good. So just to start us out Ruby, can you say your name and when and where you were born? RUBY MURRAY: Hi, my name is Ruby Murray. I was born in Kingstree, South Carolina. I am a resident of Berkeley County and I live in St. Stephens. KT: Okay. Do you remember your first day of work? Any job? Tell me about what, when I asked that and something pops in your head, tell me about your first day of work. RM: So my first job was a student employee at the College of Charleston for which I graduated from, but that was my first paying job. And I worked at the College of Charleston’s bookstore and those experiences continued my love of books. And then, strangely enough, my first day of employment with the Citadel was January 17th, 1994. I arrive on campus and that's actually the start of Shannon Faulkner's first time taking fulltime classes. So, I drive up on campus and there all these satellite trucks and I say to myself, oh, they're waiting for me. So, so that, that's a part of my journey. �Ruby Murray KT: Oh my gosh! So that's your first day on the job? Did you have, was there an orientation before that, like, because I, you know, I think all staff and faculty have to go through at least a couple of days of orientation, but that wasn't your situation. Did we not do that back in the day? RM: Back in the day, we didn't do that. I think a lot of that came afterwards. So prior to coming to work for the Citadel I had, I was working for the Berkeley County School System. And so, I was doing long-term substitution, things of that nature, but that was a hourly job, but it didn't come with benefits. And so I came like a Wednesday to interview at the Citadel. That Friday, they called with an offer and we did not go through the traditional two weeks' notice because I'd had a conversation with my principal. So that Monday morning I came to the Citadel to work. KT: Had you been following the Shannon Faulkner case at all? RM: I had some, some knowledge of it. Again, graduating from the College of Charleston, having opportunities to interact with the Citadel campus and having friends. I was quite aware of, of some of the stuff that went on. KT: I mean, tell me what that was like then to be, you know, starting, just, you know, in the heat of that controversy? RM: It was very interesting. The having the reporters on campus they would, when they could because as a day student, I remember she had this big leather coat and she would walk around. So the, the media was here for quite a while, just observing, doing reports and things of that nature. And then my first personal meeting with her �Ruby Murray would have been, she came in to check out a book. It was like a recreational reading. So when I went to check her out in the system, there wasn't a record for her. So we get student tape loads of all students coming in on campus, but there was her name was not included in the tape load. So I had to ask her because she lived in her address was Powdersville. So I had to manually put her record in because it wasn't a part of the student tape load. KT: Have you ever had that experience where a student's not in the database? RM: There have been one or two occurrences, but that one stuck out to me because I would have expected KT: That clerical error, clerical RM: Error at that time. KT: I mean, did, did you ever figure out why her name wasn't in there? RM: I had my, my thoughts. KT: Okay. What so what, what, how extensive was your interaction other than, you know, taking her information down? I mean, did you get a chance to talk to her at all? RM: Not in that case, because again, that was, she came in January finished, would would've gone home for the summer and then her return where it had passed that �Ruby Murray she could be a part of the Corps of Cadets. So that's when she came in that August. And we didn't see her after that. KT: Okay. Okay. And so in, did that pose any challenges for, I mean, just with all the media attention, I mean, in terms of learning your job and, and kind of acclimating yourself to the Citadel, what was that like? RM: Well, I started in January, so if you're in the book business or the library business, think about all the students that finished up their final papers and how many books you have to process. So coming to work for the Citadel library, I did not come from a library background per se. And I didn't think about her much. It was just processing, you know, learning a new job and then trying to get all the books back where they needed to be to start the semester. KT: So your job, you were hired in as what, what was the position? RM: I was hired as a library specialist. And at that time I was in charge of the circulation department staffing with student employees. Then subsequently my duties increased because in the latter part of say 19- the 1990s, we started doing reserve course materials, which would be where we physically held anything, a professor had books, things of that nature, but then we added the digital component and so that, you know, scanning and processing all of those things. So that was the first time the Daniel Library had started providing electronic reserve materials. And so, yeah. �Ruby Murray KT: So, your responsibilities increased in that regard. Well, I want to go back and then come forward if that's all right. But so how, how long were you in Kingstree then? I mean, that's where you were born. Do you have memories of Kingstree? RM: So I am the middle child of three sisters. So Kingstree is twenty miles from St. Stephens. And that's where the hospital that, or the doctor that my mother was using at that time. So where I live in Berkeley County, that's about seven miles from Williamsburg County. But life in Berkeley County and Williamsburg County was a little bit different. So because we were midway from Charleston being fifty miles to Florence, you either shopped in the closer towns or we would go to Kingstree to shop. So as a child going there for shopping things of that nature, but it was a different place because it was more agricultural. In terms of the residents, especially African-American families, you had folks where there was a lot more sharecropping in terms of, you know, the types of jobs where people had income, how they felt being where they were at. And so, we were always a little bit different coming from Berkeley County, where my hometown in my youth had about ten different companies that you can work for. And so a lot of the folks from Williamsburg County would come to Berkeley County for employment. Yeah. Because you travel where the jobs are. KT: So, two sisters, and then tell me a little bit about the, your family. What did your parents do? RM: So, both of my parents are from South Carolina, close to the town where I grew up. My father is the one male child of eleven sisters. Yeah. Think about that. And then my mom was one of seven children, that, that's two boys. No, I'm sorry. That's one �Ruby Murray son and six girls. And so, I have lots of cousins, extended family. And so, being from rural Berkeley County, it's a place where you are pretty much related to everyone. And so that was a part of my excitement and moving away from a small town because everybody knows your family, they can look at you and I call it, do a visual DNA test. They look at you and they'll say, hey, you're so-and-so and so-and-so so. KT: Yep. So there and I'm, I'm just wondering like where your parents at all affected by Santee Cooper, if they're from that part, that region, you know, the flooding project and the, the construction of those, those towns. I know that many, many people were displaced and those are strong memories for people who lived through that. But it was that any, was that a part of your family history at all? RM: For my parents, everybody talked about the introduction of Lake Moultrie and what that meant for the area. For myself the [Cooper River] Rediversion Canal Project, which linked the silt and the, the stuff from the Ashley River that comes through Moncks Corner, that goes up to the lake system. So in St. Stephens, they built a dam that would hopefully help to clear up the silt. They also did a fish lift that would help the fish get from one part of the lake to the other. And so, the property that was purchased for that rediversion canal, it reshaped communities. Because again, we're talking about rural South Carolina where family members live close together. So a lot of folks are used to you live at the subdivision or the apartment complex where the, where your parents purchased. But for many of us, you live in areas where families either inherited land or purchased land. And so, your next-door neighbors are your cousins and things of that nature. So, for me the completion of the rediversion canal to leave my house now I have �Ruby Murray to cross three, three bridges. The first bridge is like a mile from my house. And so just looking at the landscape, how it changed and where families' members lived versus where people ended up moving to support that project. And also for the town of St. Stephen, some of the rural areas any older homes, plantations, things of that nature would have been affected because of the scope of the, the Santee lake system, KT: Where you in town or in the country? RM: I live out of town. So I'm like seven, excuse me, I'm three miles out of the town of St. Stephen. But I'm on the line. So, St. Stephen is three miles. That way, Pine Hill, South Carolina is one mile that way. And yes, there was a difference. It’s just small town rivalry. KT: And that was like, you grew up on family land. I mean, he said some, you know, that had been in the family for several generations. RM: Uh. And so my grandparents, my aunts, uncles, cousins, and that's kind of how it kind of circles out. KT: And for the most part had, had worked as farmers? RM: My grandfather was actually electrician. But people did farming even if they had other jobs. And so again, in that area, a lot of the men worked at the Naval Weapons Station, you know, the big employers of that time. So, my mom was an elementary school teacher, my father, the first eleven years after he left home, he worked for Bethlehem Steel in Baltimore. Then when he came back to South Carolina, he then �Ruby Murray worked for the Naval Weapons Station until he retired. So, the whole idea of people traveling back and forth to work is, is something that's very natural. And a lot of people, again, from that area worked at hospitals, things of that nature. So, there was some rural transportation chances or people just carpooled. KT: Yeah. Even while they maintain the connection to the land and the farm. RM: Right. So you— KT: There's always a couple of family members who are working in the city, working at the Naval Base. RM: Right. Because I've been, and this is a little bit before me, but even as a child you work those other jobs, but to support income, you still planted cotton, did vegetables, things of that nature. So it, it was a duplicity in terms of working away from home, but then still having lots of responsibilities once you returned home, KT: How old were you when you started? And I'm, I'm assuming here that coming to Charleston was kind of a big deal that there's a little bit of excitement around coming into the, into town. RM: Oh, yes. KT: And I'm wondering what are your memories of coming to Charleston? RM: Coming to Charleston? KT: Know why would you come? And what was that like? �Ruby Murray RM: So, coming to Charleston was always a big occasion. A lot of, again, you're coming to doctor's offices. If you watch television, you saw all these commercials for businesses. So, coming down King Street and seeing the, you know, Jackson Davenport or these commercials it, it was really exciting. And then for, for healthcare. If you had to come to any of the local hospitals, things of that nature, and then that also put you in close contact with fast food. So that, that was the excitement coming to Charleston. You can go to Burger King, takes two hands to handle a Whopper, two to fist burger from Burger King. So, you could do the jingles, KFC, things of that nature. So, it was always that excitement and again, for shopping, but it wasn't an everyday occurrence. It was for special occasions. KT: Right. RM: And then by the mid-eighties traveling to Charleston just became more of a, a constant, but yeah. KT: So how old would you have been before you came down without parents or without family members? RM: Hmm. I think as a freshman for college. KT: Not until college? RM: Right. Again, you would come to Charleston, you would go to the Battery. So the Battery on Sundays was the place to be, people would be from one side of the East Bay Street to the other. And that, that also meant that the residents who had their houses �Ruby Murray on the Battery probably were not home because of so many people in town. And so, I think that laid way for the Waterfront Park to just kind of shift people's, you know. KT: Interesting. Yeah. I'd never thought about that, that, that Waterfront Park that there were those dynamics that, that absorbed a lot of that energy. RM: Right. So you, you would come for those kinds of things and then you come down, you get dressed and you're just people watching and interacting, and then they would have like food vendors and things of that nature. But my first long-term stay in Charleston was as a college student. KT: Okay. And so you, you come to the, what, what was your, your major at the college and what, why the College of Charleston, did you, where you had you given thought to any other colleges to attend or? RM: So I had given thought to, I knew I wanted to go to college in state- you know- like normal students, you have these college fairs. And so I had gotten information for a whole lot of colleges, and there was a school in Anderson and the, and the card came. And so my oldest sister is ten years older than I am. And she was like, oh, I see you're interested in this school and what she says is well, “I just want to remind you of one thing that,” and this is again, back in the day when people are not traveling like they do now. So, she said, “I just want you to know you will be coming home for Thanksgiving and Christmas.” And so, let's just say, I lost that particular place, but secondarily to that my, as a, from a family of educators, the College of Charleston had a fantastic reputation in terms of success with your, what was then the NTE or your Praxis �Ruby Murray exams. So think about you wanting to have whatever career you want, but your career also comes with national certification. So if you want to be an accountant, an engineer, or something like that, you have to take these boards and the score, first of all, you have to pass. And then at times those scores also played a role in what you were paid. So my mother had been doing a great inventory of the younger students coming in, who were teaching in the name that had the best results in terms of the success was the College of Charleston. Also at that time, what you know is Charleston Southern University was a Baptist College. And they had had a, a time where they had some financial issues. And so, KT: It's that wasn't really much of an option then Baptist. RM: Yeah. Not as much of an option. But the College of Charleston. KT: You had family members to go to the college? RM: Yes. I had had cousins that actually attended both the Citadel and the College of Charleston, but I had legacy cousins that in, in the school, you know, if you've attended. So I had cousins that had graduated from College of Charleston in the seventies. KT: Okay. So arriving at CofC in the, what, mid to late eighties, right? Is that about right? RM: Yeah. KT: I mean, tell me, tell me about that. You know, moving into the city and starting at the college, what was the college of Charleston like in the, the eighties? �Ruby Murray RM: So I think my, when I arrived at college of Charleston, enrollment it was about seven thousand. And as you know, that you live on campus or you commute. So, one of my funny memories moving from quote, the country to the city, is the sound of hearing fire trucks and ambulances. So if you live in a rural area if you're at home and you hear an ambulance or a fire truck, everybody goes outside to say, where are they going? What's going on? What should we do in the home? Especially if you have rural fire department, everybody responds, whether you're rendering aid or you're just being nosy. And so being in my dorm room, it took me a while to stop running to the window because it was so ingrained. So when I'm in Charleston and I hear sirens, it doesn't bother me, but if I'm at home on the weekends and something goes by, it's like, everybody's like, did you hear that? Where do they go? I went to cousin Lucy's or whatever, whatever. So, that, and things being open later those, those were some, that adjustment. KT: Did your classmates pick up on the fact that you were country? RM: Hold on. I'm just trying to think of my—not so much. And, and there were other people who were from rural communities. So, so we had that commonality. I don't know that it was as obvious that I was like running into the windows. But you had Francis, St. Francis hospital Roper, MUSC, or they called it Medical in that day, but it was, it just took me a while. KT: Did you encounter like unique Charleston accents or not? Or not, not so much. �Ruby Murray RM: Yeah. We all have different speech patterns, even myself. I sound one way here, KT: But when you get home. RM: Soon as I crossed the top of the bridge, I will sound totally different. I had lots of folks from Spartanburg, Greenwood, folks from Conway, Florence. So, to me, they had more of a Southern twang. And then they would say, I sound one way. And I was like, but this is what you sound like to me. My sister, who's ten years older than I am, her speech pattern is very lyrical. You would think she was from a Caribbean island, I think for myself and my younger sister, because of television music and things like that. It's kind of smoothed out. KT: Interesting. In that ten years, even though you grew up in the same household, it's just that ten years difference. RM: Yeah. Yes. Again television, and like I said, we will be somewhere and someone now, let me, if we're in Florence, folks from Florence would say, oh, you must be from Berkeley County or someplace else, or they'll say, well, you sound like so-andso. But I think for my oldest sister, it's much more pronounced. KT: Oh, so how did you get from CofC to-- because your, your major was you, you were not a librarian. You weren't on any kind of track to be a librarian. RM: Correct. And so my undergraduate degrees in education, my master's degree from the Citadel is in literacy. And so I had this strange epiphany that happens to people �Ruby Murray later in life. So I had worked in someone's library since elementary school. I was always part of the library club. In our small town, the library was open three days a week. Then it went four days a week. Then it was open five days a week. So I was always reading, always at the library, the college career, I was so focused on the education component. The voice did not say, well, if you love books that much, why don't you get a career? And so I did it the hard way. So our teaching faculty, the folks that you see in the military uniforms, they have their masters in library science. I do not. My youngest sister was an English major in college. She has her MLS and is a school librarian. So it's like I found my calling, but I just did it in a different way. KT: And you'd mentioned earlier that you made this transition from, was it student teaching, or you had this job directly, just immediately before the Citadel? RM: Immediately before the Citadel. So one of the things as a College of Charleston student, unlike the Citadel, there were lots of opportunities for college students to work and get experiences in various departments. And so, again, I worked in the college bookstore, ordered college textbooks, shipping, packing, all those things. And then I also had every other job that was available on campus, where I worked with students. And so the transition is just, I ended up working with the books and the books got me the job in the library. But the good news is I am now able to use my education background. My background in literacy, my background, and having worked with college students and high school students for so many years KT: Who hired you at the Citadel, who, I don't even know who the director was? �Ruby Murray RM: The director of the library was Zelma [G] Palestrant. And she was the director of the library. And I'm hesitating because I'm trying to find the words. So it's always great to take advantage of opportunities because you don't know where that opportunity will lead to another opportunity. So my sister did an internship with the College of Charleston's library, and then she worked at the Citadel. And so they needed someone to come over because they were having some staff meetings and things of that nature. And so that's how I first came to the Citadel and met her. And, and, and when I say met that, I mean, at that particular event, one of the events were just had a chance to say hello. So I think that connection, having had some experiences with the Daniel Library was helpful in terms of my career shift. KT: And, you know, I'm thinking well, for me and for the students, what, what, what did the, you know, how, how would the Daniel Library look different in the midnineties? What, what would you know, what, what would the experience of going, because it's, you know, we all know it as you know, we have our interactions with the library, but what was it like in the mid-nineties that would be different for the particularly for the student experience? RM: So you would enter the library, the same doors, but where that grand stairwell is, would have been the circulation office, where it had our reserve materials and we would meet and greet you. In terms of resources, back then everything was about Xerox copying, because you're not at where you have all the digital things that you guys have. So, the need to make Xerox copies, VHS tapes—I've tried to write some stuff down—fax machines, things are getting faxed back and forth, microfilm, which is that �Ruby Murray small piece of film that you would have to take to a machine and then pay to print the pages. And so that technology had folks coming into the library much more often. Yeah. Then now for you guys, you enjoy more of a digital experience. And so, from that time to now, the library has also tried to keep up with technology. So not only was there the installation of the grand stairwell, but bring the building up to code in terms of providing data, because, you know, the big thing for us was we had fifteen laptops that we could check out. Now, I think we have what, 64. And just those, those things where there was some interruption in services, because we had to outfit the library with data portals, things of that nature. And so just trying to keep up with all the changes. So there used to be, when you go in the BOV area, you have all this open space, but those were once filled with all the Eric fiche, all the microfiche for everything. And so, KT: How about, was there a physical card catalog still onsite, and you would use that in a digital an online catalog or was it just the physical? RM: It was, we had the, the card catalog, and then we slowly started phasing that out, but yeah, we, we the card catalog. KT: I'm not sure they know what a card catalog is. RM: A card, a card catalog is a beautiful wooden structure that has shelves in it. And you would pull the shelf out and you would alphabetically look for whatever subject. So, if you were doing business, you would look it up or they had reference books where if you wanted like a particular author or things of that nature, when you don't use terminology, you lose it. �Ruby Murray KT: I know, I know, I know. How do you explain the card catalog? RM: So that was the paper form of what you enjoy doing when you go to the computer and you type in that you want to do a paper on Tales of Two Cities or whatever. Well, before it would have been, you went to this thing to find the book, Tales of Two Cities. Then, you would go to another resources to find authors who had done reviews of Tales of Two Cities. Then you would go to something else to find articles or journals that talked about the Tales of Two Cities. So now with the electronics that you enjoy, that's why we're able to convert space into usable space for you to study and things of that nature, because prior to that, everything required a separate resource.. KT: Yeah. And they, they were these huge structures in the library and you, you just have to, you know, scroll through it. I mean, there would have been probably like an like cards by author, subject, and maybe title where those like three separate do you remember what the standard was? You know, something like that, but if you knew the title of the book, you could go in the, you know, the call numbers in there. RM: Then you could you subject areas KT: Probably, by author and my God, how did we, how did we do anything? Speaker 3: So you'll have librarians working, you know, in the new books, in the new card typing or changing. In that time they cannot erase nothing, you have to re make them. �Ruby Murray KT: Yeah. That was a big job for librarians is to type those, keep those cards updated. And anyway, so you know, I know that a big part of that, I mean, you've long been committed, you know, I think I'm going to editorialize, you've had an expansive view of librarian and what libraries should be doing. And I'm thinking specifically about the kind of work that you do in connecting the larger community to the Citadel, and also to the work that you do with students, which in a lot of ways, it goes way beyond like the narrow definition of what your job is. And I'm wondering how, you know, was that there from the beginning, or did you have to create that space to be able to do, to, to kind of redefine your job? RM: I think a lot of that came from me in that any job that you take, it comes with a description of what's required of you personally. Before I knew, I knew there was a term called “servant leadership”. I brought a lot of what I had learned from home and, and from my community in terms of helping others sharing also being from a place far from Charleston, if you called and you asked, you said, do you have this part? Sure we do. And then, you get to Charleston and somebody made up the answer and they don't have it. They didn't understand what that cost in terms of time and money. So, because I had worked with students pretty much from elementary school, but again, my last time would have been with high school students. I kind of brought what happens when you leave high school, where you're comfortable to be in a big city, in a different place. Also again, the library served not only the needs of our cadet students, but we had graduate students who a lot of them were changing careers. And so, my philosophy was, you know, my philosophy of, I would say customer service was, hey, how can I help be warm and inviting? And a lot of times I try to go beyond that in terms of finding ways to not �Ruby Murray only help and be an influence. Cause we had a lot of community members that visited the library. So a lot of, and what I would say to my coworkers or when we hired new folks, I would say, you don't have to do what you see me do because that's a part of who I am and what I'm comfortable doing. And so, a lot of times it'd be like, hold on, let me go get miss Ruby because she can help you with so-and-so and so-and-so. KT: I thinking, you know, the, I mean, this, the Citadel you know, they're these barrier, you know, I think other colleges campuses are much more accessible to the, their larger communities, but the Citadel just being with the Citadel is being like physically a gated, you know, structure. There's some challenges to overcome to make the library or make the campus, you know, more welcoming to the larger community. And I'm thinking, you know, there's also definitely a racial component to that. And I know I've spoken to enough African-Americans who grew up downtown, who talked about being told by their parents, you stay away from, from that place, you know, that that can only be, you know, trouble and, you know, there was just all those kinds of feelings and a history there. So, I'm wondering you know, if you could comment a little bit about that and, and the role you've played in making it a more welcoming campus and welcoming library. RM: I think what you say is quite powerful and it's not just how locals felt about the Citadel, but also the College of Charleston. So as a College of Charleston student, back and forth, you would get different responses from the locals. Some would be surprised that you would speak to them because they would feel that because you were there not so much, the College of Charleston had policies where for graduation, they �Ruby Murray would cover up what is Randolph Hall and the Cistern, they would cover all that so that no one could look at graduation. Coming to the Citadel, there were folks who were not comfortable with the campus. A lot of times I would actually take the city bus from here, back to the College of Charleston. Because as I was working at the Citadel's library, my sister was working at College of Charleston library. And so, the stories you would hear on the city bus about the Citadel, the College of Charleston, Mark Clark Hall just how things were done in Charleston. So the first thing you learned when you got on the city bus was, you know, you said, good evening, good morning, you spoke. And then some, they would ask you, well, why are you, where are you on your way to whatever, whatever, whatever. And even one of our librarians, his mother worked on campus and worked in the mess hall. And when he said that he had gotten a job at the Citadel, she was very, very concerned. And he yeah, she was very concerned. So he would have been one of our librarians and she was like, okay, KT: But you ready for this? RM: You need to be careful. But that was, it was a mixture of so many different things. So you think of the campus as a place where you come and you're getting an education, but there were also people coming on campus to work and to serve others. And so that overall treatment wasn't always the same. And so, as anyone knows, if you come upon me, I try to be warm and welcoming. And I think that job has allowed me to experience so much. And so I was, again, like I mentioned, Shannon Faulkner's first day. So, January 17th of next year, will make my 28th year at the Citadel. So, I was here when Genieve Hardney and Libby Henry, our two first African-American female cadets came. �Ruby Murray I was here when Jeanie Mentavlos, Kim Messer, Petra Lovetinska and Nancy Mace came as our first four female cadets. And so think about the lots -- The Citadel never had a welcome center. Cadets would go to Mark Clark Hall. So the library was the one place that was open to the public. So because we are a public institution and the library is open to the public. And so just that opportunity to meet people from, you know, a part of their student journey, their graduate journey, or just folks coming to the library to use it as a resource. One of the gentlemen that you see all the time, Mr. Michael Bonaparte, one day he left his resume in the copier and it was one of those typed things. And one of the ladies came and said Ruby, I found this in the copier and I looked at it and I was like, ugh. So I called him and I was like Mr. Bonaparte, you left your resume in the copier, but if you don't mind, I could make some improvements to it. KT: (Laughing) RM: And so, he lives around the corner and, you know, he said, “you did my re— I didn't get any call backs, but since you did my resume, I got these calls back”. So, seeing Citadel families return, alumni, people who have different interest, there's a— we've all heard of an Austin Martin, which is like a James Bond car, but there's something called an Austin Healey. So like what, prior to the pandemic, I had a couple come and I was like, oh my God, I just love this car, whatever, whatever. And they were like, well, you know, we have a festival we're going to be at the Yorktown, come on by. So here I am on a Saturday with all these beautiful classic cars, you know, having that experience. And so there are those beautiful experiences. And then there's the sadness �Ruby Murray that comes from, you know, when cadets don't make the best decisions or you know, sometimes that's hard cause you're, you're disappointed in what's happened to them. And most recently you've heard the name Myra Thompson as one of the victims of the Emmanuel Nine shooting. So, Ms. Myra actually got two master's degrees during the time that I was at the circulation desk. And then there's Cynthia Graham. Her too, actually, married one of my best friends from college. But what you may not know is that Cynthia actually worked for the Daniel library almost three years doing reference work. And she would have been the local librarian down at the Dart branch before she moved to West Ashley at the St Andrew's. And so, you know, coming into work that day and finding out that Cynthia had passed and watching the news and from Ms. Myra, they always had this picture where it was like right on her face. And you could just see look the gray. And I kept saying that lady looks familiar to me. And it, it took about three days and then it hit me. That was Myra Thompson, who was the wife of one of the ministers on Bull Street from the Reformed Episcopal Church. And that would have been the aunt of one of my best friends from college’s husband. And so you, you have where you're working with the public and meeting people and you experienced these highs and these lows. But I think what's important is the relationships that you build. My mind is not likeI wish I could be like a historian- so the way I catalog things, I'm horrible with dates. I recognize faces. I wish I could be more precise in some things, but even this past matriculation, there was a gentleman and I was like, “oh, you look so familiar to me”. You know? And so nowadays people get really nervous if you're like talking to them. I was like, but I know you asked it. I know you either from here or the College of �Ruby Murray Charleston, he's almost defensive. I was like, you worked on your master's degree. And then he was like, or even one of the professors - professor Jim Smyre. I remember him because he's a Citadel grad and being in the, I take it back. I'm not sure whether he's a Citadel grad. My interaction was with him in the library. And so, when he first came on back on campus, he was like, oh, I work here. And so now when I see him, I still address him with that familiarity because I remember him from that time. KT: I'm finding like, COVID has really messed me up with people. Like I felt like the discontinuity is, I don't know, I've just, I'm forgetting names. And at least that's what I'll pass it off on. RM: It is names. It's not seeing people in their regular spaces also as a result. It's not your imagination, KT: Faces. You know, RM: For a lot of folks, they have retired or have been unable to return. I know for myself my job changed where I stopped working with students and started managing the Friends of the Daniel library, which is the lecture series. And getting away from working with students, it's been a little bit different. So now it's like, we're on the third class where I don't have that same kind of connection because I, the best way to explain it. And I saw one of them and I call all cadets, my cadets. I saw one of my cadets and I said some Foster, well, yeah. Cause you know you're a sophomore and there was like, “no, Ms. Ruby, I'm a junior,” because the last time we had any interaction they would have. And then the class before it was half of the time, then the previous freshmen class. �Ruby Murray KT: Well, let me, oh, I mean, I could, I could ask you questions for three weeks, but I got to restrain myself, jump in. What, what questions do any of you have? And you can either you know, the mic should pick it up or if you want to come up closer, that'd be fine. Student 1: Yes ma'am, so one of the questions I had was outside of going down to Battery Park, while you attended the College of Charleston, what was the night life like, like were people going downtown? What did, what was the college student doing on a Friday night besides going to the Battery? RM: Well, the College of Charleston was not party central. Let me say that. For now, the fraternity row was always super-duper busy. So that was without saying my amazement being able to see, so the fraternity houses are on Wentworth Street and then there's Glebe Street that comes back to Randolph Hall. But first time I was able to stand on the street and smell beer that far down, I was totally amazed. So we for the AfricanAmerican students the, again, the sorority and fraternity sponsored parties at the Stern Center. And then there were a lot more house parties. So a house party is just a group of friends. You go to whose ever apartment or whatever, whatever. And so that was that. And then College of Charleston basketball was big. And so a lot, a lot of folks went to basketball games on whatever nights. There were clubs on King Street. So there were places for people to go, lots of bars. I will date myself. When I came to Charleston, the drinking age was eighteen, then it went to twenty one. So yeah, so there were, there were lots of fun things to do, but in comparison, I will say in comparison to my friends who went to different colleges, we �Ruby Murray thought we were doing stuff, but we weren't, we weren't partying like fellow students. So sometimes I, I feel like cadets in terms of you have to find a party. But our, but our campus just wasn't party central. Student 2: With technology changing, how do you foresee the library itself changing in the next fifteen, twenty years? RM: Even our library is in the process of changing. So, like I said when you come into the library and you look to the left all that seating area where the lab, where the computer terminals are and all of that seating, previously all of that would have been reserved books, where you are on the right side- where you see all of where a Starbucks is- all of that would have been reference. So every day, even I can't keep up with the changes in terms of the building. You will see less and less physical materials. We spend almost $200,000 on electronic databases. And so the library itself will move towards being a physical place where hopefully more students have study areas. Because anytime you get rid of any space, you want to return it to where our students have quieter places to study. In terms of the technology, I almost can't keep up. So when I stopped working with reserves and just going upstairs to do fundraising, I think what did we, we had, you could borrow laptops and some calculators. Now we have everything from GoPros, every kind of camera you can think of. We even have a flipping metal detector. And so the types of every charge or a Mac cords. And so the needs of the students are being recognized, but the swiftness of how technology changes is like I go downstairs and I'm like I don't quite know what that is used for. So I will say that we're doing a great job of trying to keep up, but the vision is �Ruby Murray endless in terms of what may be the next big thing. I know a of college campuses have where the library is a place where you can have like lockers and things of that nature, where you can get deliveries and things of that nature we're restricted by space. But that doesn't mean that the next big idea won't land at the library. Student 3: Do you think, the library will ever go like totally virtual and never have and get rid of all their physical books or… RM: I would say not in that there's something to be said about physical resources. The South Carolina libraries have this consortium. And so what, we actually have a lot of history books that other libraries don't have. And so I think the state is trying to not have so much of a duplication of services. And this weekend, what, there was a power outage at the game. Everything electronic is real fantastic when it works. Was out in Sumter, South Carolina and for whatever reason, hey, I got a conspiracy theorist seriously power outage there, power outage in North Charleston, then I'm in Sumter. And like the credit card machines are going down. And that was a lot of unhappy folks. So I think there is value in having those physical resources, but as you've heard of ransomware and different things, when you come become totally dependent, that means you have to have electricity. You have to have, when was last time you went to print something and it said, your driver's no good, but you just got the printer. And so, the danger is once everything becomes electronic, you see that we're not having a lot of good success and keeping ransomware from holding from the smallest town to a major corporation hostage. So, we have to balance our smartness, but I think physical books are here to stay. The quantity �Ruby Murray may continue to reduce, and yes, there are colleges and areas that have gone completely virtual, but that just means every penny that they spend has to go to the cost of those indexes and databases. And so, if we're spending $200,000 on us for a portion of it, imagine what the budget is for that school, where everything they receive is electronic. And with providers, there sometimes is no competition. So if you need Jstor and they raised the price by whatever percentage, but you don't have anything physical today you're going to have to pay for that. So you gotta be careful in these games that we sometimes play, you have to look at it from several resources. So, I have all my books electronically, but then at home, cause I'm a bookaholic, I have my book collection, where for me, KT: When you say home-RM: Okay. I use a dualism. I live in St. Stephens. I work in Charleston. So, I'm in Charleston, Monday through Friday then. KT: You're on campus. RM: And so during the weekends, KT: So where are the books? RM: All over, all over. The only thing that has slowed me down with my book purchasing is over the years, working in the library, all that humidity and stuff like that, my allergies are a little wonky. And so I've kind of gotten away cause, you know, if someone is, if there's perfume on the book or cigarette smokers or something like that but I, I like listening to �Ruby Murray music and reading a physical book. Cause if not, you have to have your electricity, you have to plug it in. And so I have my hurricane books. Cause if there's bad weather, I'm going home and I'll have to have my reading material. KT: St. Stephen is still home? RM: Yes and no. I have. So at the beginning of this conversation, I talked about my mother and father being from large families as Marina can tell you, I am from Miami to New York, several times a year, just visiting with family. Don't know what the family structure will look like because now the younger cousins do so much with technology, but our relatives that of our generation, we visit together. We travel together, we do these kinds of things. So you know, from Miami, my love of Cuban food, Dominican food. My aunts live in Rahway, New Jersey, which has a huge Lithuanian community. So I, I am a contradiction on many levels, but again, that's from being from a very small community, but having that desire to learn about others and do different things. And so, it's like over the years, my family actually waits for us to come to town because we're like, we're going this way. We're going that way. The mistake I made as a college student was not studying abroad. So now I have to study on my own dime. And so I traveled, we traveled internationally and have again met people where you have that connection. Student: You were talking about your first day on campus with it being Shannon Faulkner first days, I'm just curious. I had kind of two questions about that. What was the overall vibe on campus like those first couple of days? And then adding on to that, I'm �Ruby Murray sure you know, that Pat Conway is working in the library here, at The Citadel. What are your thoughts on him? Paying Shannon Faulkner tuition when she became a day student. RM: Which one let's let, let's start with Pat Conroy and then remind me of the second question. Because to know Pat Conroy, the kind of man he was and his, his kindness and he had his own tough row to hoe with his books, Lords of Discipline. And so we would have, prior to his illness, he would come in and we would have these book signings. And so everyone, you’re either buying the books for your bringing in your books and that man would sit there and not only autograph every book, but having an indepth conversation to that person who he was autographing the book for and, and why, why, and to whom and what did this person. So to have those encounters with him and how he felt for that period of time, where he was pseudo non grata at his beloved institution, I could see where he would look upon her desire to come to the Citadel whether right wrong or indifferent, but pay homage to that. So that doesn't sound strange at all. And you remember that big speech where he invited the class of—which one was it? To come to his, his funeral for which there were cadets who did this whole, did a graduation speech. And he said, invited that class to come to his funeral. So that speaks to the man and maybe what he was trying to do. So, so that makes sense. So far as her coming on campus and what the Citadel environment was, again, it was a duality, it was the folks who were some kind of upset. Oh, they had tshirts you, you read, you know, the 1900 and 1 that t-shirt. Yeah. So it, it was there even amongst employees, there were those who you know, welcoming their students. We had the director of marketing at that time. His name was Terry Leedom. And what, so he presented the Citadel as anti-Shannon Faulkner with no exception. So some of the �Ruby Murray comments he made in the newspaper if you remember, I'm trying to make sure I'm not getting my people confused. But yeah, so some of the things he said in newspapers sometimes I get leery of campus surveys so that he, he sent out a survey and asked, what was your opinion on her being on campus? So he got the results. Then he went on local radio and said that nobody at the Citadel wanted her, her there. So alumni had their reasons. My position was I've been the person in a place where you're not, you don't feel welcome for reasons beyond your control. So just those years of save it, save the males in that, that whole vibe. It, it was, it was taxing. KT: The library, where did your fellow librarians come down? You think generally? RM: Oh, talk about a ride back in the wayback machine. Again, because I did circulation and I was out front so, and, and that's why I make a good circulation or information person. Cause I'm talking back and forth, cataloging people in the back are not the life of the party. So I don't really, and we had an older staff, one of the librarians, her, excuse me, one of the technical people, her husband was Lee Martin, who was the director of human resources when I came. So I can't tell you that I remember specifically what a lot of them said, some of the older ingrained librarians were not impressed. Yeah. KT: Other questions? Is um—anything that, that you feel that, that I did not ask, or maybe something you touched upon that you wanted to elaborate on or, you know, what, what did I miss? �Ruby Murray RM: I think we covered everything. I will say to the cadets. I talked about my first job being at the college of Charleston. So whether it's a paying job or an opportunity to do an internship, you want to take advantage of those opportunities because that helps you to learn about how businesses run, how business runs, how you know, financials the whole, the whole nine. Again, having that responsibility as a college student to order thousands of dollars' worth of textbooks or working for programming for the college where you, whatever you do, you have to account for the, the money that is spent, you're, you're responsible for the health and safety of students. So all those things were really valuable to me. And you had asked about our, our proudest moments and how you interact with people. Sometimes you don't recognize the value of that interaction until later on. So two stories I'll share with you. Again, I remember faces, but it's when it's time for me to go home in the evening, I can't find my car keys. And so we've had long-term folks come to the library, whether it's reunions, whatever reason. So there was this one particular gentleman that I didn't know personally, but I remembered his name and I would see him different places on campus. And so it wasn't that he knew my name, I remembered his name, but, you know, how is your son, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I had just taken over, left from circulation and reserves, had just started the friends of the Daniel Library, which is our lecture program. And so you do fundraising. And so this particular day the gentleman comes in and I'm like, “oh, hey, I'm so glad to see you”. And he's like, so what are you doing now? And I'm like, oh, I'm in charge of the friends. And he was like, well, I have some, I tell me a little bit about it. And so he was like, well, how much have you raised? And I'm like, oh, I've raised about $3,500. And he �Ruby Murray was like, well, tell me, what are you thinking about doing? So we go through this conversation, blah, blah, blah. Then he whips out his checkbook. And so he says, well, all right, I want you to be able to do some of the things. And he did not look like me at all. He's from the Northeast, but he whips out his checkbook and he says, okay, I want you to be able to do some of the things you've talked about. And I was great friends with Angie [Le Clercq] who was our previous librarian. And so he wrote me a check for $6,500 to bring my fundraising total to $10,000. And that was again, simple things, acknowledging conversation, the spirit hat, treating people the way you want to be treated. And then my second story would be it's okay to know stuff, even if it's a lot of stuff. Cause sometimes when, you know, a lot of things, you're like, hmm, well, I don't want to come across overly knowledgeable, even though you don't want to be the and so I had done an interview for the Citadel for a program that we do in February where we have an African-American Bazaar. And so this gentleman saw me on the news, contacted me to set up something where he could meet with the community and some cadets. And so and, and this gentleman was with the Navy. And so at the time my nephew had switched his major to, from engineering to something called health physics. I had never heard of it. I didn't know what health physics was. And I'm like, well, how's he going to get a job? So health physics is how you use radiation and health and industry. So again, we're at this event and so they're trying to get students to think about going into the military and focusing on the new NPOC program, which would be nucleus, submarines, and warships. And so what, and we're talking, there's all kinds of folks. Then I was like, yeah, because, you know, once you get out of the military you need to find jobs. And so you �Ruby Murray can go to—what was it? You can go to nukejobs.net and you can find all these nuclear jobs. Did you know that 114 nuclear power plants in the, whatever, whatever. And so he says to me, he was like, oh man, that sounds fantastic. Do you want to go and see a nuclear submarine? I was like, oh, that is fine. He, he gets my information. He doesn't say anything. I don't say anything. And then I get this letter. So if that was like February, like in may I get this letter and it says you've been selected to be a part of the, the Navy's educator program. And so I thought I was going to Goose Creek to see a nuclear submarine. They flew me, I went to San Diego and we actually went out on the nuclear submarine, the San Francisco. And so I say that to students, when you have folks come on campus and they do their presentations, you use that opportunity to introduce yourself, to them, find some commonality. You never know where it's going to lead you. Even if it's a job, you probably don't even like, and you think, I don't know if I want to do that. Take advantage of these opportunities because those interactions, the ring will do a lot, but you have to have that experience. So being a Citadel grad may get you the job, but how do you plan on keeping the job? And so, I encourage you just from listening to me, today, what do you need to know? You can be from anywhere. You can do anything if you treat people well, if you give of yourself to others, your trajectory is, is endless. So I've enjoyed my time working for the Citadel. Any day I get phone calls or whatever from grads, sometimes when I'm going up north, I call my cadets and we meet at the stretch Stafford exit 143 B in Virginia, all my cadets from Quantico, we’ll meet in the shoppers parking lot. Again, these students from all over the country, all over the world, they don't look like me, but the commonality is we have the Citadel experience �Ruby Murray I've learned from them. They've learned from me. And that's what networking really means. You can't use a Citadel network if you don't know any Citadel people. KT: Thank you so much for joining us today. This was terrific, you know, great way to start our semester. Right? RM: Thank you all so much. I'm so honored to gotten this chance to tell you a little bit about myself. And if you see me around campus, let me put my little mask on. So I'm the little short lady that walks really fast down the sidewalk. RM: Well, yeah, I'm that invite myself to class. Cause I love the whole series you guys did with End of recording MLL 12/7/2021 RM 1/25/2022 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/edb26ebb9d1154b646d1d5f8acc96bba.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=TzJfBvoOHYJfmJgW3AJVmlY%7ES8u2Z6QO7fM0qEo1u3ivcfGXkCS2v8gOIm-0SfiKa0zwJ4nH9pnud95yO48ob4vqS3KBsVVxcMiR8dkZBW8hBW6-f-DubwBoHVXTOr3HmHoJOHZNWJD%7EwPT8pCASx5aAC2hLC-wwRAXeCs7hgXKQDtscuHBDtE7KJ8b7iMtX6Ro8wDfaElhrifYrTq-jHuksjeuP92Swtgl2ZpIRZ8HhrJ1%7EQnNIMSzHK%7Eg0aCMTVmHlOmbrB%7EAQRV3QPp4-wYdQR5X2OoGiGUQPoYvFzuZhgJHgWSH6BkmM242FFGgoINbrBdCEg-TzhQ6qynRi-w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM fdc70ab2e0a2a2f87ed9d8511dfc4a61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Taylor, Kieran W. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Murray, Ruby Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 15 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ruby Murray, Interview by Kieran W. Taylor, 20 September 2021 Subject The topic of the resource Women in higher education African Americans--Southern States Academic libraries The Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Description An account of the resource Ruby Murray was born in Kingstree, South Carolina, and raised in St. Stephens, South Carolina. In the interview, she recalls her first day of employment at The Citadel’s Daniel Library on January 17, 1994, the same day Shannon Faulkner started taking full-time classes. Murray talks about her nuclear and extended family and remembers the construction of the Cooper River Rediversion Project and the impact it had on the community. She describes her experiences visiting Charleston as a child and later as a College of Charleston student in the mid-eighties. Murray reflects on her work at the Daniel Library and the changes she has witnessed over the years, including the Daniel Library and the Citadel's evolving relationships with the larger community. She defines her leadership style as “servant leadership” and stresses the importance of building relationships and genuinely caring for others. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2010 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/da7b199502f79ae96bd3f76d5d64a960.jpg?Expires=1779321600&Signature=qVvxF8IbZ4JoDibEO01xSCzKVEaAjqxbDNUDDakDHjiwOtVKEZgBw76qmtnCA4EiICbO6KxQTN1su2FHlCKJ74LqliXsPZqWOB5AWdfhZP2l1eheHUPsT64h0vQTn1KPodXYaB1CRuJSZopl4rDvESdlPhbNd4zgi3UK2ZSqoWN4oEn4X3L8wKejdSG9-Mqx6qPy54VAxn-SVWHQbAh1Rsvvb9T4qfqMINaCowKr5rBKonyjlQtpEQi0YwIlgsiSmIcfjqPTZTVMHwO7nUslPtilQUQu4O%7EmhCsVeR9BOlsIFwtvBZXac%7EnAFnEuKhZ8soFd72iIR4cqMO3bPwaVig__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e3b048c3441af1e0c458bc254dfb1a6a https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/b9f8feea399002b86329ac42e92e6e5b.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=eih-9LDRrVxfM1O6tSGD13bRflso2OdVOCVGtSV0TIx14xTrku36O8iOaOGHiZwHX7tzP%7EDRx0LbYzuXNY9MemXkBs1Q6LFcaeG99wsHnHVM-JPEAoO0xSVFVluKWiG6jZcWeZSJ6zCMCWqifbbpEP9U0dlE175wSn3ITDc1aIcwwxrcAFH-C9h8hVOCOawOl1YuXJJQNP5l07FbH1bo92JfLFjAEC3xvzFhVDxAAaNlhhi62HSXSZTrY1dtEA%7EWCZMR-OetGLbPqnKqkQF81Sw78Rra7qWEJoyEPBUutNjEFwFDVw4pBGIRHDhGSnx67Kjcr-ebmRI2GXwPbVvfig__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 22e6464f08a8877764835175c27e0f98 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPTION - JONATHAN LYON Interviewee: JONATHAN LYON Interviewer: JOHN ROSENBLUM Date of the interview: December 7, 2021 Place of the interview: Charleston Length of the interview: 00:44:46 JOHN ROSENBLUM: All right. I'm John Rosenblum from The Citadel JONATHAN LYON: I'm Jonathan Lyon, Dock Master, Detyens Shipyard JR: All right. So we're conducting the oral interview. So, want to start off just a question. Where are you from? JL: Awendaw, South Carolina. JR: Gotcha. So, where is that? JL: Twenty miles north of Mount Pleasant, going down Highway 17, towards Myrtle Beach. JR: Okay. So what were you like just growing up? Just gimme a little description. JL: Just old country boy, growing up rambling through the woods, walking riverbank, looking for arrow heads, squirrel hunting, just a regular old country bumpkin. �Jonathan Lyon JR: Gotcha. So just was ships always an interest for you? Just always from the beginning? JL: Not at all, my daddy retired from the Navy yard and then he went to work for Detyens before he passed away. JR: Oh, so your dad worked here? JL: Yeah. Actually retired from the navy yard part of it. Anyone Detyens was on the Wando River, he went and he worked there for about three years and then he passed away. JR: So that that's pretty cool. So, this was turned from a naval ship yard into-- ? JL: Right, into a private shipyard. JR: So what age did you start working here? JL: Well, I started in 1974 at sixteen after my junior year in high school. And then I came back in '75 after my senior year in high school. I quit and shrimped with my uncle for about six months. And then I came back in '76 and I've been here ever since. JR: Wow. That's awesome. So, just gimme an overview about the shipyard. What do you do? Just what goes on here? JL: Well, we maintain any ship, ship repair of any size that we can get in our piers and anything we can dry dock. We do bottom side work, and I'm one of the dock masters. I'm senior dock master, and I've been dock master for twenty-two years. I was assistant �Jonathan Lyon for five years before that. And, I started out in the carpenter shop as a carpenter helper and switched to the dry dock department in 1980. And I've been here ever since. JR: So what, so just job description of a dock master. What do you do? What's kind of, what do you do? JL: We just take the ships out of the water. We design the blocking systems for them, do maintenance on the dry docks, do the ship handling, some of it and some larger vessels we have commercial dock sand commercial pilots do that and just line ships up and pump the docks out. And until the repairs, when the repairs are finished, we undock them. JR: Gotcha. So work environment wise, what's it like working here? Just, the dayto-day? JL: Normally something new, you know, just, and kind of hard to describe, cause I just do it every day, but you know, one day we might be scanning docking plans to see if we can dock them in a certain dry dock. And another day we might be building blocks. Another day we might be repairing valves with, in conjunction with the machine shop or pipe shop. JR: Got you. So you've learned over the years, a ton about ships? JL: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. �Jonathan Lyon JR: That's really awesome. So just going back, let's just go back to back when you first started working. Do you remember, your first day or just when you began working, how that felt? JL: Yeah, it was strange my first day in the carpenter shop. I knew the supervisor and he took me down there. We had old wooden dry docks and there was an old fella from Andrews in there. He was doing what he, what you call caulking, a wooden dry dock that leaked a lot. And he took me down there and I couldn't understand a word he said, but he taught me a lot about working inside ole' wooden, dry docks and caulk, how to caulk and all that. So, but that was my first day. It was interesting, very interesting. JR: So, just how has stuff changed over the years? Just ship wise and working wise? JL: Oh, well, first of all, we try to work much more safely than we used to back then. You know, back in the day it was, you know, kind of a wink and nod. You might wear a safety belt, you might not. And it wasn't that we didn't care about ourselves. It's just, you know, in the industry, it wasn't that strict back then. And over years, people getting hurt and OSHA getting involved. We really tightened up on that. We have safety walkthroughs with our safety department. They send up safety discrepancies every day and we try hire a level best to correct them. And we smarter now to back years ago, you wouldn't, as in building blocks, you wouldn't have a forklift on the dry dock to help build blocks. We had what we call timber hooks. It was four men carrying a 250-pound piece of oak picking it up and repeating the process until we got the blocks built for the ship. And now we use forklifts and cranes and do it the smart way. �Jonathan Lyon JR: That's really cool. So just talk about your coworkers. So back, you know, when you first started working, so you become friends with your coworkers. How did that go down? Just cuz your dad worked there. So did you know people already? JL: Well, I knew a few people. I was real young when my dad died, but there was few of the guys still there that knew my dad. But, once you start getting into a situation, working with a group of guys, you were all in a room working on a ship or you're all down in a dry dock, putting planks on the dry, or whatever, you just form a comradery, you know, it's just, it's just a natural thing that happens in, in our situation. JR: Yeah. So, working wise, so has anyone been here as long as you have, do you have, people you were working with back near the beginning that you're still working with now? JL: There's one guy in the paint shop that's been here since 1974 and a guy I went to school with, started here in March of 1976. And I started in July of '76. JR: So you have a pretty close bond with these guys, work with them every day for the past, you know, thirty years? JL: Yeah. Oh yeah. JR: So what about the job physically? Just, you know, back, I know that back then, it was probably a lot, you're doing a lot different stuff than now. So what, what did you have to do just physically back then? Just for--. �Jonathan Lyon JL: Oh, like I said, carrying timber using the timber hooks, we had to climb up ladders to get on top of the dry dock, open hand operated valves, pumped the dock out, crawling up underneath there tearing blocks down, swinging sledge hammer., carrying timbers for planking on the decks, whatever, you know, everybody was extremely strong back there back then or you didn't make it. JR: Gotcha. So throughout your career, just, you know, what are some just kind of overlooking some difficulty, some challenges that you kind of came across? Cause I mean, you've worked there for a while, so it's probably a lot, but you know? JL: Yeah and challenges. You have challenges with certain people sometimes. Obviously, that's in any situation, you know. Hard, a lot of work was really, really hard, hot, very hot in summertime, out on, especially the old wooden dry dock and had creosote on 'em and you get chemical burns from the creosote sometimes. So it's just a myriad of stuff like that. The black, they used to use a grit called black diamond for sandblasting. And you were constantly breathing that whenever they were sandblasting a ship, so paint fumes. JR: So back then, I'm guessing you wouldn't really deal with customers as much? JL: No, no. JR: But now, now it seems maybe you do more of that. Do you deal with customers more? �Jonathan Lyon JL: I deal with the port engineers who are over, the representative over the projects. I deal with some of the government nav arcs, as naval architect, as far as our blocking schemes for government ships and stuff like that. But on a whole, I'm not as deeply involved with the customer, say like a project manager would be or something like that. Cause I'm pretty much individualized to the dry docks or tying a ship or untying it from the pier or something like that. But the actual scope of the work I don't get involved with very much. JR: So people-wise, cuz you know, every job has their struggles with people, who you've come across. People that have been difficult to work with. That's been kind of a, I'm guessing cuz of every job, you know? JL: Yeah, of course. This environment's not for everyone and there's some people I've ran into over the years, they wanna come here for the money, but they don't wanna do the work and they don't mind sitting down watching everybody else work and you know, and again, in our environment that's not gonna work. And that, as far as that goes, that's the biggest thing I've had with anybody as far as we've never, I've never had any type of racial struggles or anything like that. We've all gotten along. As I used to say, we were in the trenches together, you know, it's, it's never been anything like that at all. So, but it's mainly, there's just a few lazy people that didn't wanna work that want to get a job, a paycheck. JR: So just working wise throughout your career what has been some good moments just throughout your career? What, how has this job been, you know, rewarding to you just day to day? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Well, certain situations, like we had to dock some form of dry dock destroyers that we turned over to the Taiwanese. I think we had dry dock and repair 'em and we really worked long and hard hours, you know, for a week building blocks, cutting the caps and all that. And we finally got the ship out of water and dry dock and I walked down there and checked the blocks. It's just, wow, we really did this. You know, and it was just, it was times like that are just really, really rewarding. They really are, just to say, it's finished. It's accomplished. We've done it. JR: Yeah. I bet that that's, I mean, big jobs like that, you know, cuz I mean you're working with giant machines. JL: And you're looking at a ship that's, I just said, put on a ten, twelve foot set of blocks. It's twelve feet up in the air, you know, something that's seven, 8,000 tons and for 500 feet long it's very rewarding just to see that. JR: So remember the process of putting your, getting the ship onto a dry dock or, well, if you could explain what a dry dock is first? JL: In the shipyard, we have what we call graving dock. It's basically a big bathtub. You fill it full of water. We have flooding valves, you fill it full of water. At the end, there's what we call a case on. It's like a floating dry dock. We pump it up and move it out the way. And we bring the ship in either by tugs or sometimes they drive their selves in. We get it kind of, kind of in place. I have reference marks for them. We get it kind of in place and we flood the case on back down, have our lines made up to what we call captions for controlling the ship and setting it up where we need it. And we just start �Jonathan Lyon pumping the dock down. And normally I have divers that will also assist me in fine tuning it as I call it. Like I said, I have my references, but they do a fine tuning and they go down and then they come up every couple of minutes and give 'em a report, whether I need to go north or south, you know, forward, AFT, whatever. And that's normally the way it works and then we just pump it completely dry. Then we have a crew guys come down there and they wash because we get silt in there. We wash the dock out before anybody goes down there and starts working. JR: Gotcha. So you said that you've thought some, you've dry docked some pretty large booster. What's the biggest, biggest boat that you've, that you've put the--. JL: The biggest ship I've ever dry docked is with 754 feet by 107 feet. It's called us NS ARCTIC. It's an oiler. They supply oil to other government ships and we docked her twice and her sister ship twice. And it's actually larger than, longer than the dry dock, but I was able to overhang the stern over the forward end dry dock and bow over the afternoon of the dry dock. JR: So I'm guessing you guys have had dry dock since you guys have start since it started back in right '60s. So how has the process changed? I'm guessing it's a lot safer cuz I feel like they're could've been a lot of dangerous stuff. JL: Oh yeah. When I first started at shipyard, we happen to have an old wooden section dry docks from the War World War II. They were an old navy dry docks that Navy used. And then once the war was over, they sat around for a while and different companies used them and we ended up with them. They were called sectional dry docks. �Jonathan Lyon They were held together by pins, large pins, of course. And they would flood down and we would bring the ship in just like with the graving docks that we didn't have a case on. Then we would pump the dry dock up until the blocks touched. And sometimes we had to stop, and what we have hauling blocks side and pull blocks into the ship with a hauling block system and then bring it the rest of the way up. It was the same thing. We wash the dock down and, you know, double check our blocking and all that. JR: So, just looking back, what is probably the coolest thing you've experienced here? I mean there's a lot of just amazing stuff that goes on here, lots of large ships coming in and out. I mean, what's just maybe one of the coolest experiences you've had? JL: Oh man (laughs). I've been through so much here. Just again, the coolest to me, the coolest thing is really just the accomplishment of seeing something out of the ordinary. One of the first times, I guess the coolest thing really was, it was a ferry boat. It's a twin hull boat and it had never been dry docked before. And my boss said, called me on New Year's Day, I was sitting down having a coffee with my wife and said, "I need you to come take a look at this docking plan." And it was really different. That's nothing I'd ever like I'd ever seen before. And getting that dry dock was really, really neat. And the port engineer was pleased. I found the mistake in their docking plan, thankfully. And we corrected that but it was really cool getting that ship out of the water. JR: That's pretty awesome. So just looking around, there's so much cool equipment. So just what are some things that you use, just for maybe in the water? I see lots of cranes and stuff like that. �Jonathan Lyon JL: Yeah, we have a hundred ton floating crane. That was a Navy crane. We have probably ten portal cranes, which travel on, on train tracks. We have a hydraulic crane forklifts, you know, the forklifts we use for building, about a 25,000-pound forklift. So just our inside machine shop is, you know, just loaded down with lays and milling machines and all that, you know, it's just, tons of equipment that we're constantly using. JR: So you guys just do repairs on lots of ships, just tons of different stuff coming out. What are some repairs that you've seen, just that you'll see on average? What you do deal with? JL: Well, normally they rework the sea valves, which can't be done in the water. Normally, everything gets blasted, sand-blast, or we hydro-blast now, hydro-blasted and painted. They have sacrificial called zincs. We replace those. Normally pull the wheel, the shafts and propellers, we call 'em wheels, but propellers, drop the rudders, repair rudders, you know, any of the running works of the ship or maintenance parts of the ship we do. JR: So sand-blasting and hydro-blasting, that's to repaint, right? JL: Right. Exactly, exactly. You take the paint off, sometimes you just sand, hydro-sweep it and don't take the full coating off. Sometimes you go down to bare metal and do a complete coating, just according to how long it's been since it's been painted, what the specs call for, and how much money the customer's willing to spend. �Jonathan Lyon JR: So just going back to touching back on, you know, your earlier days, you worked in high school, correct? While you were in high school, you worked during the summer? JL: During the summer, right. JR: So how was that? Just, you know, your first summer working there. How'd that feel difficult? It was a difficult job. I know that. JL: Oh yeah, definitely. I was in the labor gang. So we were doing cleaning tanks, oil tanks and cargo tanks, whatever. It was very, very, very dirty. And, you know, for a guy, I think, I say, I was sixteen. Summer before that, I was cutting grass at a campground, having fun. And that next summer, I'm bogging in mud, they were going through ships or whatever. It was definitely different, but it was, it was a job, and so--. JR: But, you know, it was, it was rewarding. You seemed like you got close with a lot of people? JL: Oh yes, definitely. JR: That made it, you know, when you came into work every day, was it more of an excited or, oh, I don't want to be here? How were your feelings towards your job when you first began? JL: I kind of looked forward to it. I mean, everybody would rather be home than working, most people would, but I kind of looked forward to it and way back then, it was really gonna be something different every day. I didn't know whether I was gonna be �Jonathan Lyon chipping pain or cleaning a tank or you know, shoveling sand on the dry dock. You just didn't know, but we all got along good and had fun doing it. JR: So as you went through your job, so what, what do you have to do to rise through the, the ranks of, you know, working here and just getting, getting higher up and doing different stuff? JL: Work, learn, ask questions, listen, you know, that's, and that's what I did. The old, old, one of the old dock masters, when I transferred to the dry dock department, it was only supposed to be temporary, but the guy passed away that I was taking his place. So, but he took me aside. He would explain to me what he was doing, why, how, why he was using this mark or this, this type of wood or whatever. And I, you know, over years I just learned more and more and became assistant to when the next dock master came. When I took his place, when he came, he really took me aside and explained a lot, showed me how to do calculations and stuff like that. Helped me set up computer programs that would do a lot of the work for us. JR: So, yeah. Talk about the computer stuff. So obviously back when you started that wasn't as much of a thing, but how has that come to help y'all over the years? JL: Oh, it's astronomical help. I mean, I got a program where, you know, I can tell how many side blocks I need for seismic loading and, or hurricane force, even though normally when I do that, it's already been done by a naval architect. But I have a program that every bill sheet for a ship I come up with, I'll put certain particulars in there and it �Jonathan Lyon tells me how much the ship weighs, how much the loading is on the stern and, you know, already average load, that kind of thing there, but it's just from the program. JR: Wow. So that definitely helps out a lot. JL: Yeah. We, years ago, we'd pencil whip it, but (laughs) yeah, that was a whole lot worse. JR: Yeah. I bet. That was a lot of work. So what are some of the different jobs that you did just back, you know, your middle days or working there? JL: Oh again, you know, building blocks was my biggest thing, but, you know, we used to have wooden ships when I was in the carpenter shop, wooden ships called mine sweepers, MSOs. They were Navy ships, active Navy ships, and we had to tear the sheeting off of them and redo sheeting. Inside, we had to do fiber glass work over the deck. We redo the fiber, redo the decking, pour the rubber in between the seams on the wood, you know, just any, anything on the wooden ship we would do. Any type of woodwork. JR: So, you said that you do repairs of all types of ships and you talked about military ships. So that is that just U.S. Military? I heard you say something about--. JL: Well, we've docked, I've docked a couple of British ships. British warships, Canadian, Canadian. I think that's all the foreign military. I mean, we do a lot of foreign work, like from German cargo ships or, you know, stuff like that. And most of our �Jonathan Lyon American government work is Military Sealift Command. We haven't docked an actual Navy ship in quite a few years now really. JR: But yeah, that's pretty cool. So what's it like working on a military ship? I feel that's gotta be pretty interesting cause--. JL: Well, they're more stringent with everything. But it's basically the same thing though. It's, you know, there's more I’s to dot and T's to cross, but it's basically a ship is still a ship regardless who owns it and how it's run. You still got your sea valves, you still got your potion units and all that. JR: So tell me what a sea valve is. I've heard you--. JL: Oh, okay. I'm sorry (laughs). I just assumed that everybody knows. It's a valve that's hooked to the side of the ship and it provides cooling water for the plant, for the engines or whatever. They have, most ships have, has a myriad of different types of sea valves for different functions, but it's hooked into the piping system so they can cool engines, whatever type of liquid that the system needs, it's hooked to a sea valve in some way or another. JR: So just going back to your working. So, you know, you've changed jobs a lot. You worked multiple different places here, you've done different things? JL: Well, mainly I was for four years, I was in carpenter shop and then I transferred to the, the dry dock department and I was a dock watcher, really, even though we, we were involved with all the dry dockings and all that. Until I became a lead man or �Jonathan Lyon assistant dock master in, I think 1991, I believe it was or '92 somewhere. I don't remember exactly, but I became dock master in1998. JR: So, there's definitely, there's a lot of different jobs here, to, that you can do. So gimme kind of a, there's an overview of some of the different jobs that are around here, dock master, other stuff like that? JL: Well, we have a rigging department which handles all lifting of different materials, use of the cranes, had a machine shop, obviously they do sea valves and whatever, you know, the mechanical aspect of everything. And then we got inside machinists where they work, the lays and stuff, preparing ships, wheels, or shafts or making stuff for 'em. Carpenter shop, they normally handle mostly scaffolding, and the insulation aspect of ships. You got the piping department, which obviously they work on the pipes inside the ships. Haul department, they do the welding, burning and all of that type of stuff. It's repairing, plating on the ship, replacing all of that. JR: So back when you were younger working there was there was a lot less safety stuff? JL: Yeah, yeah. And it is not just this industry. I think all the, I mean, you can look at old pictures guys sitting on high beam having lunch, building empire state building, how, you know, it was the ways things were. But as we progressed as a shipyard, we definitely progressed on our safety. Definitely. JR: So just like looking back, I'm guessing you've been in some pretty dangerous situations cuz I mean, coming in here and that's one thing I was thinking about it's like, �Jonathan Lyon this seems like back in the day, it must have been, I feel like it was probably a decently dangerous job. JL: Yeah. It did have its danger points. I mean, inside the old wooden dry docks was a beam system, wooden beams that held it, dry dock together and we would have to work on replacing some of those, walking on scaffold boards, across 'em and it was a long drop down. And I see people, one guy fell and had a compound fracture on his leg. JR: Wow. That's pretty intense. JL: Yeah, it was. And, but again, with our growth, we definitely improved astronomically on our safety. JR: Oh yeah. I bet. Definitely cause I know that a lot, like they're probably more like mandates of safety and stuff you got more precaution. JL: Oh yeah, definitely. Any time a ship comes in, we have what we call a rival conference and right in the heart of that is a safety briefing and they go over all the safety numbers as far as you know, who to get in touch with if this happens or that happens. And that's normally pretty long winded, you know, going over everything, they bring the fire department in here to let them look in the ship and get, you know, get a feel of what, what they would have to do if they came in, you know, if they had to come in here for a fire. JR: So, you've have you ever been inside any of the ships? I'm guessing just like- JL:Oh yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. �Jonathan Lyon JR: You've been inside of a lot of 'em. So like what's what, what's some of the nicest ships you've been in because I know that there's, you know, there's a lot of cool different stuff that you work on. JL: Yeah. Well the ferry boats, like first one I was telling you about on the bridge. Well, I say bridge, the bridge, that's what we call where they drive a ship. When I first went in there, all I could think of was Star Trek Enterprise, you know? JR: Wow. JL: Just all the gadgets and you know, it just, it was yeah super cool. Yeah. It was really super cool. And I really thought that was interesting, but the older government ships are not that elaborate, but you know, they, you go up on the bridge and you still got your old compass things in there, you know? JR: So have you guys brought in cruise ships, at some point, correct? JL: Right. JR: And have you worked on, those cruise ships at all? JL: I've docked a couple of some of smaller cruise ships, but when we bring, bring the big cruise ships in, normally we just supply them with a pier crane service around the clock and they bring in contractors, cause when they gut it, they gut the whole top, they replace all the carpet, the furniture-- JR: Oh wow. �Jonathan Lyon JL: Everything. And we had barges outside of them. They were just throwing stuff in the barges. New dresses that look new, boom, replacing everything. JR: That's crazy. So they'll take all the stuff on just like all the floors and just-- JL: Exactly. JR: So they're doing more, or like they do like cosmetic work? JL: Exactly. Exactly. JR: That's crazy. So they'll just take everything and then they bring in new stuff and-- JL: Bring in new stuff and contractors to put it in. But I mean, obviously we, you know, we make money on it, but our biggest thing is supplying the tug work, the dread, the barges for 'em to use and the rigging mostly. JR: So this is just something I was thinking about like hurricane wise, cause you've been through a decent amount of weather stuff. So what, I know that that's probably it, I mean, just, I can't even imagine, like there's so much just exposed stuff and then in hurricanes. The hurricanes here are ridiculous, flooding stuff by it. So how is that? So let's talk about, you know, hurricane stuff like that? JL: Even for a baldheaded man, it is hair raising. I promise you it is. And I sat through many hurricanes here. JR: Wow, really? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Yes, yes. We always add extra lines to all our barges and ships or whatever. If the ship can't sail, they gotta stay here. We add extra lines to 'em, we have volunteers to do a watch and it's according to the situation, whether we flood the dry docks or not, it's, you know, what category, what they're expecting for a tidal surge category of storm is gonna be, and that's on a case-by-case basis. JR: Wow. That's, that's pretty crazy. So you've been, you've been here for a few hurricanes? JL: Quite a few, a few. JR: Wow. And how is that just like, that's pretty intense. Definitely. You just sticking around for that. JL: Yeah. The last hurricane I stayed for, I was here like sixty hours straight. JR: Wow. JL: It was a long weekend. JR: Yeah. That is, oh my gosh. And so like any damages, anything like that, or you guys lock your stuff down real, very securely. You make sure--. JL: We lock everything down as securely as we possibly can. Any flying debris that would be flying, we try to weight it down, tie it down. You know, we try to cover all angles of safety now and when the wind gets too bad, we just don't go out. We have the controls for our dry docks are called our pump wells. I have men in each pump well �Jonathan Lyon taking care of it. We have generators to take care of what we call a sump to keep that from flooding. That's where all the electronics and stuff are, stuff is. So guys taking care of that and just keeping their eyes on that and just trying to keep the pump as safe as possible. JR: So flooding wise, from the hurricanes, anything around here flood? Cause I know it's obviously right next to the where the rivers are. JL: So we've come very, very close the last storm. We were like within six inches of coming over the dry dock. JR: Yeah, because I remember out from where I was, the flood was ridiculous for the last hurricane. JL: Yeah, it was. It wasn't a bad hurricane, but the tidal surge was what scared everybody. And I know back in 1989, when Hurricane Hugo came through here, it was still a Navy yard then, but the former Navy yard dock master, I became good friends with and he worked with us for about fifteen years after, you know, off and on just helped us with blocks and stuff like that. And he said, "whole area got flooded," said, "the dry docks got flooded." They, you know, said “dry dock two was, had snorkel lifts, JLG, forklifts, all kinds of equipment down there.” And to keep it from uncontrolled flooding, they went in and opened the flood valves and just filled it up, said it was, it was pretty intense during Hugo. �Jonathan Lyon JR: So, it seems like this place has become pretty developed and gotten a lot larger. So how has this place, just in general, developed and gotten bigger from what it was back when you first started? JL: Well our biggest, obviously, was being able to take over the Navy yard cause we were, like I said, on Wando River, right on Highway 41, we had branched out to a place called Shipyard Creek. Right down here where we had a steel, dry dock and we were able to start working the FFGs, which we couldn't dock up there because we didn't have enough. So that kind of broadened us up. And then when this came, I think it was in 1995, we took this over, when this came to play, you know, we really, of course we had growing pains cuz we were always a small shipyard and develop into a bigger shipyard with such a large footprint. So many more people was, it took a while to get the gist of it. JR: So you started out in a different place and how close was it to, like you took over the Navy shipyard, correct? JL: Yeah. JR: And that was how close is that to here right now? JL: This is, this was the Navy yard. JR: Okay. So, alright. So this, what you took over, where were you, so how close were you before? JL: We were on in the Mount Pleasant area, which is probably what, fifteen miles from here, something like that. �Jonathan Lyon JR: So you changed locations completely? JL: Right. We still had the Wando facility and we had a dry dock down at Shipyard Creek right on off the Cooper River. We had a dry dock down there and then we took this over and eventually closed the Shipyard Creek branch down, brought the steel dry dock. No, we took it back to the Wando yard and then eventually we closed all of that up and just this area brought everybody over here and a lot of the older equipment that we had over there that was still good. We brought that over. JR: So, when I was coming in, I saw just other, I saw other businesses kind of out over in that area. Is that in yours? JL: No, no. JR: Is that, so this a large area of business? JL: Yeah, we own, we have from pier H to pier Charlie, and you know, as far as mass, I don't know how big it is. I know it consists of quite a few piers, but a lot of the private businesses have taken over different buildings on the, on the footprint now. Port Authorities taking over a big jump down that way now. JR: So looking back, just what are some of the most, what have you learned from just this whole experience of working here? It's pretty much, it's been almost kind of your whole life just working here. Which is so cool. Just what have you learned? Just takeaways from just everything you've done? JL: Whew (laughs). �Jonathan Lyon JR: Yeah. It's a big question. JL: That's a big question. Like I said, I just started here a longhaired country boy and just learning the ins and outs of the business. You know, I didn't know what the bottom of the ship looked like. And years later I’m designing blocking schemes for 'em and didn't know what a dry dock looked like. Now I'm running dry docks, you know, in charge of 'em. Most, the biggest thing I've learned about working at shipyard is trying to have the comradery with, with everybody to make the job work. You know, if you're a supervisor and you're arguing with another supervisor, you're not gonna be able to jell and get the things done together that need to be done. So that, but I don't feel like I answered that question too good. It's such a loaded question. JR: No, you answered it just fine, but just like digging more deep into that. Just you've learned a lot about, you know, people and stuff, correct? JL: Oh yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. People, you get around people a lot like that. You learn the temperaments, what, you know, what spins them up, what rings their bells, you know? So, but all in all, I would say it's been very rewarding. Like my children, my wife have never known me to work anywhere else. I've been working here probably two years when I met my wife. JR: Wow. JL: And you know, it's been a lot of weekends, a lot of Christmases, Thanksgivings worked, missed weddings and funerals and all that cause when the ship's gonna dock, it's gonna dock. �Jonathan Lyon JR: Yeah. So they call you when? JL: Well I'm normally--. JR: They're always around and just gotta make sure--. JL: I'm one phone call away (laugh). JR: So you're always around when they call you? JL: Oh yeah, yeah. And normally we know when something, you know, say, well, these people want to, they need to dock Christmas. So, you know, we get, we dock, you know, it's just that. JR: So, just how much notice do they give you when they say like we have a ship coming in the next, you know, week? JL: Yeah. Normally we have plenty of warnings. Sometimes you come in there in the morning, once in a while and say, "hey, we've got an emergency job. We've got a dock at such and such a time. You know, maybe two days from now, they'll be here. They lost a wheel, you know?" JR: Oh wow. JL: Yeah. So you gotta do it, you know? JR: So just like throughout your time here, what's been the weirdest thing you've seen having to do a ship repair? You said that someone has lost their propeller before? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Oh yeah. JR: What's something interesting that's happened that you've had to repair. JL: Oh, (laughs). Like you say, lost wheels, lost a rudder. JR: Wow. JL: Yeah. One ship come here. The rudder blade was just gone, gone. JR: How's that even, how does that happen? JL: I don't know. Nobody knows how it happened, but it was gone. So they had to tow it in here. We had to put it in, dried out. We had to make another rudder for it. JR: Oh, you had to make all new rudder blade? JL: Yeah. We had to make another rudder. I think we had to make rudder stock too. It might have got sheared off. I think we had to make rudder stock and the rudder. You know, I've seen ships come here where they run, run aground. One of 'em run into a reef and have what they call a bulbous balance on a smaller, well a lot of the ships. It sticks out from the hull and helps with the, how, how a ship goes through the water. Well, he had run aground or run into a reef and it actually looked like a boxer had been boxing, the nose that was just bent back and destroyed. And we had to completely redo the whole bulbous bow. JR: So how long does a job, an average job, like, take just, you know, repainting, fixing stuff? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Well, it's, it's according to the patches, normally the oilers that, TAOs, the MSC ships normally are on dock for around a month or so. Commercial ships, they want to get in and out as quick as possible cause they're not making any money when they're sitting on blocks. So they wanna get in and out as quick as possible. So, and sometimes we just, we've been known to dock something just to do an inspection on it and undock it the next day. And then we've had stuff and dry out for three or four months. JR: Wow. So you've had, you have, a lot of different jobs. JL: Oh yeah, definitely. JR: What's the, just throughout your career, what's the longest? Do you remember the longest time a ship has been sitting here, you working on a ship? JL: Yeah, I would say it would be the Taiwanese Project because like I say, we are taking old, old Navy ships that have been sitting up mothballed, as we call it, that been mothballed for sometimes ten or fifteen years. So you just gotta go through so much of the systems on them that they're normally on dry dock several months, which is good for me. It gives me a chance to do me maintenance and gives me a breather too. JR: Yeah. So just you've learned a lot throughout this whole career. And this has just been, you, been a great experience for you? JL: Oh yeah, definitely. JR: Okay and mostly you came to this because your dad worked here? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Well not really. I just needed a job, but I knew I could get a job at Detyen and then the first summer, and then second summer, this was the same thing, but you know, I quit because I could have made so much more on the shrimp boat for about three to six months. So that's what I did. But when I came back last time, you know, my mom, you know, I was still living at home and you know, my mom was a widow, so I need to be responsible to help her. And then I just got, I got married and just continued, you know, it was a good stable job and I knew I wasn't going anywhere. JR: So your plan was you did you plan kind of for this, when you started, you didn't really plan for that when you started? JL: No. No, I didn't. I really didn't have any plans. I just knew to work for a living. I had a job and I've always been, you know, burdened, a hand forth doing the bush any day of the weekend. You know, I knew I had something steady and especially after I got married and had kids. Mr. Stewart has always been adamant about making sure we have the best insurance possible. We've got a medical center right here. And me and my wife are old people and so we take a lot of medicine, but all of my medicine comes for right here. It doesn't cost me a dime. JR: Wow. That's awesome. JR: So, yeah, that's really cool. You've just been working here for so long and you met a lot of people along the right. It's been such a good experience, just any other, anything else that you would like to talk about, just about the job, about your history here? �Jonathan Lyon JL: Mr. Stewarts passed away now, but I would like to give him praise because he was one of the very few people you would ever know that was that financially fit, in shape, but he loved everybody. He would walk through the shipyard and see a laborer that, you know, just, and, you know, labor's the lowest position in here, but he would see a laborer and he'd say, "happy birthday, Ben". You know, he knew, he just, and he cared about everybody like that. And working for, working for him was really, very rewarding. As he got older and got Lou Gehrig's disease, he was, he was still very active out here. And he still, you know, tried to do as much as he could, but it got to where he really couldn't anymore, but it was very rewarding work for him. It really was. JR: He obviously taught you a lot of things. JL: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He, you know, was just an excellent guy and he taught me that just because you got money or just cuz you got a position, it doesn't make you any better than anybody else. JR: Yeah, that's, that's a really good, that's a good lesson to take away, so just it's been a really good experience for you? JL: Yes, definitely. Definitely. JR: It's just such a cool place to be at, you know? Just working, wise is this, this is definitely not a decision you regret? Obviously, this is a great place. JL: A lot of times, sometimes at night when I'm sitting the boat, did I get those blocks right? Or did I do this, that you, you kind of second guess yourself and say, dang, I �Jonathan Lyon wish I was just another carpenter, but in the long run you got a responsibility. You got a job to do and you just Nike says, "Just Do It." JR: Yes, sir. Well, it's been really great talking to you. JL: I've enjoyed it. JL: Yes, sir. It's been awesome and I hope to see you again soon. This has been super cool. JL: Alright. JR: We'll just, I'll just take this and put it in. MLL 8/10/22 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/9ceef6700c6d279350ae29d9514bd6fb.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=JzXzsUmn3TUBP-i9xG2hit9y6OPEK1nWluQ86ph%7EoSA-Erg9tvNoJegK0rC5qSerPTfiOqnPj75i6PUcRedckr9yDYjfY6iep3JcvXmPoLIA%7Ey7aRefpqusWIB7MxCcQYIC6pCgn1bM2rLrLVPPTubqo8oPp1zUkaaK7qGyk1N4ogeuZxfxlrXl0ST-CsGoTKuXaDhAOSp4fjBcMOPYxF0WwBFTKAcJZgYJqflE-RzaxvmnJ-Co0WREe7VLvalpmm5kkYoDnr%7EC7SpPydgw5UZQi52a7l6NxFmz33ggmCjSpwbVSV5b8HWEXvWQ7vBte3HS9ux6TTUyo8fi%7ETkkyLw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 094ebcdb1c81b30e059ccab3d2fde593 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rosenblum, John Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lyon, Jonathan W. Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jonathan W. Lyon, Interview by John Rosenblum,7 December 2021 Subject The topic of the resource Shipyard workers Shipyards--United States Detyens Shipyards Description An account of the resource Johnathan Lyon is a Dock Master at the Detyens Shipyard located in North Charleston, South Carolina. Lyon was born in 1958 in Awendaw, South Carolina, and has been employed at the shipyard since 1974 when he was 16 years old. With an extensive background working at Detyens, Lyon has witnessed the shipyard growth, has seen new safety measures put into place over the years, and has worked his way up in the ranks from his start in the carpenter shop to now as a Dock Master. Lyon provides a rundown of the day-to-day basis as a Dock Master and what some of these tasks might entail. He also discusses some of the challenges that are faced such as hurricanes and ship repairs. In addition to this, he praises his late mentor, Mr. Stewart, who taught him life lessons that he has remembered for years.   Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-12-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2009 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/1c8705cedabc0e8cb3e177d66ce99a74.jpg?Expires=1779321600&Signature=jJvRE6fEYOGgOUIagDobOryf7B5A-fGaKgfjQLN0pndp9fCzodbvBL0sNZT4TFNIUGhpOmAxNJgsKyxtu8M4S1uFPhM10R%7E%7E%7EwngP1XBjRXs12uv0ctHrtLXhFgOZ720zi%7EUpFf4l4gDKdQalp6vDY0weOz4JYX154WgFmgJgHbhVuB%7E1TPp6dcuuDwmIbc46O0y35wiD0EphFu-pklqaNbdmGkWlhUdVHNke%7EyesjhN1QrlZFEDVCxS7lHM9AwbKDQN3jjKyG%7Ei7rX72HzTMUxEVtjL3otfFc0smRf8lwNJoBJAUNwQxzD3fs1pLHP1%7Ebc3XqD8lYyulNNRKc8VQQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 5173bc15c9794ea90dd455aeb6c41cee https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/31f9fc0523a4f79ac730a79a2438339d.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=ATJZ693YxwnJgMK3IACmTiWD-NMiXTV0-p0Br9wdZ1YNijIq5p84e1DGgf0p-Jr1hIBPtpwKXK9v36uDxKHlveYWHp6u7Mgwp6h0mP74YrbjRhbosq3pUCwuBs1gOTtTzlHfPGnP4FgaCypIebhaMZOZHE3WV-Dinke8LZmZaMndsbg70JIGzhu1PLY7QBB04wwd6ATErRUNRCKkRIHdFzCo5T%7EAIic1ncETiwtODyJpv-RuzXo2Kg84qJIxKEtM5LFvesUB-ji5rpXGnAWHjiUaruSE8gwLqKxWJmH-NJcONIxeKnLRV1NcyQu5fjJh6pWH7D6ZEAu7dJ6pN-JMLw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 055311be2048962fdf38a6ba182ede7e PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT- ALMA LOPEZ and MARIO PUGA Interviewees: ALMA LOPEZ and MARIO PUGA Interviewer: KIERAN W. TAYLOR Date: October 6, 2021 Place: Charleston Length of the interview: 01:01:20 KIERAN W. TAYLOR: Yeah, well let's, let's go ahead and get started then. And Ms. Jarvis, fix a plate. We've got food here, if you're hungry. And our guests have graciously brought food from their food truck, which we'll talk about in just a minute, but I wanted to thank Alma López and Mario Puga for taking out time this afternoon to be with our class. This is as I mentioned, this is an oral history class and also a labor history class. So we're talking about various themes related to work and labor, and the students at the end of the semester, they're gonna be out doing their own interviews around, you know, projects related to particular occupations and just really broader themes that are related to work and labor. So what I'll do is I'm gonna ask you questions just about your work experiences both in Mexico and here in South Carolina and Mario, I know you've worked in other states in the US as well. So we'll talk a little bit about that. And then hopefully I can shut up in time to give the students a chance to ask some questions as well. But, maybe, and then— Alma I'll ask you to come up a little bit closer to the microphone. It'll, it shouldn't have, you know, it'll pick all of us up, but it's best if you're kind of close to the microphone. So just for the sake of the recording, could you say your names and where, and when you were born? �Alma López and Mario Puga ALMA LÓPEZ : My name is Alma López and I was born in Mexico City and grew up in Guerrero. KT: And Mario? AL: Mario MARIO PUGA: Yeah, my name is Mario Puga. I was born in Mexico City in 1974. And I've been in the United States since '89. KT: So you've been here I mean, the US has been home since '89. And about how long has the US been home for you Alma? AL: When I arrived at United States, I was 16. It was in 1995. KT: Okay. Tell me a little, well, first of all, just, and this is the same question that we ask anybody who comes to the class. Do you remember your first day of work? AL: Yes. KT: Tell me about it AL: I mean my first day of work when I let's say where I got paid, because I always work, but when I got paid was in Mexico City. KT: So you, how old were you? AL: I was 15. KT: And what did you do in Mexico City? What, what kind of work was it? What, what do you remember about that day? AL: Mm, it was housekeeping, not for long. And then at restaurant, I was working at a restaurant. KT: Do you remember a particular day? I mean, was that difficult to work for someone else to work outside of the home? �Alma López and Mario Puga AL: Not at all. No. No. I was used to work. I was excited because I gonna get paid. KT: Do you remember how much you were paid for your first day of work? AL: If we say it right now and dollars, it'll be five dollars a day. KT: Five dollars a day? Yeah. Yeah. And Mario, how about you? What was your first, what do you remember that first day of work? MP: Well like Alma said growing up in a foreign country, you tend to work at a very early age, so I was working, answering the phone for my father. My father and my uncle had a plumbing business going. So I was there answering the phone at the age of nine. So, and they just gave me allowance pretty much. But I was answering the phone. Yeah. MP: In the businesses? KT: Yeah. MP: Yeah. Taking, you know, messages. KT: So you as a nine-year-old, you were able to handle that? MP: Well, I'll tell you one thing though. And this is where you guys, I don't know if you can relate, but growing up in a foreign country, like I said, and she can testify to that. You tend to grow up mature, actually mature at a very early age, because that's what the culture tends to push you into is just growing up. Get matured, get ready to get, I don't know how to explain it. You gotta be ready at all the time. So pretty much growing up in a foreign country. You matured at a very early age. So that's one of the things. KT: Do you, when, when did you first work for somebody else? Like non-family. �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: At the age of ten. I was working with they were selling little, little knick knacks, foreign knick knacks. And that's when China started, well, yeah, it was mostly Taiwanese, Taiwanese washers and little gifts, electronics, radios, little radios. And that's where, there was a street stand and, two ladies actually hired me to do the, to do that. KT: And was that just like selling out on the street, MP: Selling out on the street on a, on a little stand KT: Yeah. Now this wasn't one of the stands in the Zocalo in Mexico. Was it? MP: No, no, no. It actually it's it is south of Mexico City is it is called San Ángel. Yeah. KT: Called where? MP: San Ángel KT: San Ángel MP: Yeah. Which is south of Mexico City, KT: San Ángel MP: Within the city, but he's just on the south side part. KT: So, yeah, I think I know, not as far as like UNAM [Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico], but that's close MP: Pretty much. KT: Closer to UNAM. Okay. And you were just, you were hired. Were these family members or how did these? MP: No. No, no. KT: They just hired you because, I mean, how did they know you? MP: My brother and my mom had a, a little clothing stand there. �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: Yeah. MP: And next to them, there were these ladies and they, I guess they saw me cuz I already helped out my brother and my mother just selling. So they saw me that I was able enough to sell. So they, they pretty much hired me. It's not, it wasn't a full time. It is just like over the weekends. KT: Right. MP: So it was just a little, they also wanted me because when they go and buy stuff from, you know, the suppliers because there they, they were not taxable items. They were selling on the side. KT: Right. MP: And where the area where they were selling those stuff was fully a full crime places. So if the ladies went there and buy, buy stuff, by the time they get out, they will be robbed and taking all the items that they bought. So what they hire me for just going over there, get the stuff and run down the street as far as I could so I can get into a taxi and go back to yeah. Pretty much. KT: So in a way, I mean, you were kinda like security? MP: It was actually a running, running, I don't know, how would I call myself, but I was running with the products so that they won't be able to catch me and steal them. KT: I know that, so you were part of an, frankly like an underground economy. MP: Underground. Exactly. Yeah. Because actually since those items were not, they were introduced to Mexico illegally and they were sold underground. KT: Yeah. �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: Every time, you know, the police came and sort of like take away every, all the items that were, that were there because they weren't— KT: I know that that's a big struggle in, in Mexico City, in Mexico City, the city would crack down against the ambulante. MP: Exactly. KT: And then the ambulante have to come together and advocate and say, no, you know, I know there're massive protests around MP: The that's been going on for, since I was close. I feel, you know, that's in 1980s KT: Now, did you get to keep the money you made? Or that become part of the family economy? MP: It was half and half, so yeah. KT: So you'd keep a little bit of cash. MP: Yes, yes. KT: But then there was an expectation from your parents that you would contribute to the family. MP: It wasn't like an expectation, but for example yes, for example my mother was in need of something, so I pitched in. So it is, it was just like that. KT: Do you remember any close calls where either some person who wanted to rob you was able to catch up with you or the police? MP: Well, every time I went there and there were people running. So I had to run, run with the products and of course they, I was young, so I was able to go through little alleys and stuff like that. �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Wow. MP: But, that was the first, first formal job I had, I guess. Mm-Hmm KT: Tell me a little bit about the decision on the part, on both of your parts to, to come to the United States. Did you have older family members, Mario who'd come over for work? Or how, how did you make that decision? Or how was that decision made for you by parents or older family members? AL: Yes, that decision was made by my mother KT: Uhhuh. Because by this time now you were living Guerrero you were outside of Mexico City, right? AL: No the age of fifteen I went to Mexico City and that's where I start my formal job. And that's where I started living with my grandma. I didn't grow up with my parents. I grew up with my grandparents in Guerrero. So I came to Mexico City and then my mom decided to come to United States. And that's how I came here. It's not, it was not my decision. My mom brought me here. KT: So you're still a teenager. AL: I was about to be sixteen KT: And for your mother, like, did you know, what did she know about the United States? Had she been here before to work? AL: No. my aunts were living here and her husband, he was living here KT: In South Carolina? AL: In that time her husband was in Florida and my aunts were living here in South Carolina. �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: Okay. So and I'd imagine, you'd heard about many, many people who'd come to the United States to work. Like what, what were your impressions as you set out for the United States? Like what did you have on your mind? AL: I didn't want to come to United States. KT: No? AL: (laugh) It was, not, well, I grew up in a little, little village that we didn't have electricity, so it was only— United States was in my imagination because we didn't have, TV, we didn't have teachers, I just went, went to sixth grade. We didn't have books. We learned from books. I didn't have books, the only ones, the one that were teaching, but we cannot keep them, the teachers will take it. So I was like, I don't know anything about United States. Clueless. Yes. So I was, it was not something that I was planning to come. KT: For your mother. Was it mostly an economic decision then? It was just survival or what? AL: Well, I'll say economic, but also being together with her husband and her children. KT: Yeah. Yeah. And then Mario, for you coming to the United States, what was behind that decision? MP: On my part growing up in Mexico City actually ran away from my house for a year. When I came back, they gave me the option. My parents gave me the option: you wanna keep on studying or you wanna go with your brothers, which at the time were living at, in Rhode Island. So from my understanding of the United States at that age was that Michael Jackson, Madonna, you know, all, all of the culture, pop culture, which I really enjoyed. And I wanted to be where the action was. Not so much of economy �Alma López and Mario Puga because at that time you don't think about, you know, economy, but, I just wanna be, be there. So yeah, I moved here in December of ‘89 and I crossed the border. We actually crossed the border illegally. We flew from LA to New York. And from there we took a train to Providence, Rhode Island. The major decision for me was I guess a different, different life, a new perspective, something that I wasn't accustomed to, to Mexican culture. So I wanted to learn more on some of the culture. And like I said the pop culture here in the United States. You also hear that economically of course the United States was you know, always been the major drive for you know, anyone who wants to immigrate here, the opportunities and everything. I didn't focus much on that, but I just wanted to be where the action was. KT: And you were how old? MP: I was sixteen at the time. KT: You were sixteen. What kind of work did you do in Rhode Island? MP: When I came here, it was December there was a blizzard going on at that particular moment. And of course, all the factories, which are jewelry factories over there in Providence, Rhode Island were all shut down. And the people that worked were not working at all. So my brothers told me why don't you go back to school and do high school? So I said, “well, why not?” So I went back to school and I finished high school there in, during the summer times I used to work in jewelry factories. KT: What kind, I'm sorry, MP: Jewelry factories. So I saved some of the money and then I spent it during the rest of the year and my brothers did not charge me for any, you know, at the time they did not because I was in school. They did not charge me for rent or anything like that, or �Alma López and Mario Puga the food. I, you know, I did some meals for my brothers and the people that were living in the apartments with them because being a Hispanic, you rent an apartment with two, three or four persons so that they all can pitch and paying all the bills and stuff and still save some money to send back home. So that's how pretty much. KT: These are your, these are older brothers? MP: Yeah. I'm the youngest of them all KT: And then why South Carolina for you Mario? What, what brought you to South Carolina? MP: In ‘94, I went back to Mexico. I met Alma there in Mexico City. And when she came, I came. The opportunities in Mexico were not very good and so it would've taken me what I do here in four years. It would've taken me ten years in Mexico, so I decided to come back and Alma move here to South Carolina, Johns Island. And I said, well, you know what, let's go and meet her there. So I, I moved here to Johns Island. KT: For Alma? MP: Yeah. KT: And what, what did you do when you came to South Carolina? What kind of work? MP: Johns Island was a rural area, still is rural, but it is progressing to be a part of the city too. And the only jobs that are there, it's working in the fields picking up tomatoes. So yeah, we did a little bit of picking of tomatoes, which it was, I don't know how people can manage to do that, it’s a pretty tough job. You get up at four, five in the morning, you go back to sleep at eleven and, and it is bending all the time. And I guess �Alma López and Mario Puga some of you guys go into training and if you bend for three or four hours, your back hurts and these people actually bend for twelve hours. So, yeah, it was tough. So, KT: So it was in the 1950s and 1960s where you first started getting concentrations of Mexican Americans coming to John's Island to work in the tomato and vegetable fields and the tomato shed. And so that was a, a there's a, a longer tradition by the time you got to John's Island. Mexicans had been working those fields for, you know, maybe as many as 20 years or so. MP: Yeah. What they usually do is, like you mentioned back in the 1950s up to almost 1997, that's when the tomato price kind of crashed. Not many tomato growers are there now, but what they usually do is mostly Mexicans, Central Americans, Haitians would come from Florida and will follow the harvest from South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Ohio, they would follow the harvesting of the tomato. So at the time is May, June, July when the tomato fields are producing. So that's the time all the migrants would come here. And establish themselves here and then move on to the north states once the harvest is done. Mm-hmm KT: Now did either of you work migratory agriculture, or were you always permanent here in south? MP: No we were working the fields in packing and just backbreaking. And we got a, actually both of us got a job over at a nursery, a plant nursery. So, we worked there for two years. KT: And what, what did you do at the nursery? �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: Just planting little plants from very little to big trees or, you know, there were many plants, so there were short plants, trees, fruit plants. And everything in between, KT: I'm assuming that work was much better than working out in the fields, picking tomatoes? AL: It was much better and pay was better. KT: The pay is better. Yeah. How were you? Well, first of all, how did you get on, you know, as a newcomer to South Carolina, how did you get on as—do you remember who hired you to, to pick tomatoes? MP: Well, you actually have to go to the labor camps and ask for, for yeah. AL: And that time we, because there was just, it was not many Hispanic, so we know each other and we passed MP: Information AL: Information. KT: Yeah. AL: So that person knows where, and especially because they have place where you can live there, so many people were there to work because they have place KT: Because you're living with your mother at the time? AL: No, with my aunt KT: With your aunt, but Mario you didn't I mean, just showing up. MP: Yeah. And so I end up in the labor camp. KT: So in part, because it, they provided shelter. MP: Yeah �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: I'm, I'm guessing because you had been here for a little bit long, you know, you’re not part of the migrant stream. That you have, because most Hispanics are passing through John's island, whereas you have a little bit of an advantage because you're starting to sink some roots here and you kind of get to know people and immerse yourself in the community. And I know pretty quickly, like for both of you, you became kind of leaders in the community for that reason. Or did that happen much later? MP: Much later, and she started the leadership more than I was. In high school, I was, you know, helping out with coaches, volleyball coaches, and I was a peer, but doing voluntary job for the community actually started with my wife. And she can explain a little better than me because she's the one that started it all. AL: First it was hard because I had to learn the language. I was not able to speak English and I had to depending on him, because he went to high school. So he learned English first and my family, my aunt, and all of them, they were living here for many years and they never went to take English class. And so he said, you gotta go to English class. So I went to the high school of St Johns and then I went to Our Lady of Mercy. So I was taking English class after I work. And I see it's very necessary to learn English because doors can open with knowing the language. I had to have someone with me if I go to the store, if I go to the clinic and all of that. So I just trying to be independent and start driving and all of that. So after I learned a little bit, I saw more necessary things for the Hispanic, so that's when I started become a leader in different things. KT: Yep. And a lot of that was through Our Lady of Mercy. AL: Let's say that's where I learn a lot. KT: Yeah. �Alma López and Mario Puga AL: How they care for the people. But after I was working there I feel like the doors were open for me to do many things. KT: Yeah. AL: Yeah. KT: So from like, from the nursery, what sort of jobs did you hold after the nursery? AL: After the nursery? Landscaping that's the longest job that I have, landscaping in Kiawah Island. Then Our Lady of Mercy, I was doing all the stuff, taking care of the children while the parents are in class and the front desk answering the phone —with my poor English, it was very hard (laugh),and anything what they asked me to do. KT: Yeah. And Mario, I know you've done different kinds of jobs over the years as well. MP: Yeah. Well, first of all, because of my father being a plumber and an electrician, I kind of learned their skills a little bit. Then here in the United States first picking up tomatoes, then the nursery, then I moved to tree climber. Then I moved to hardwood floor installer. From there. I learned many skills from construction skills and, and recently I was in nursing school and that's what I like to proceed doing in the future. But yeah, I've, I'm a Jack of all trades, I would say. Yeah. KT: Yes. Yep. And Alma did you have your own business before Mario? Or did you do that together because you were, did a cleaning service for a while? AL: I have, yes. I I've been cleaning houses since 2004, but I opened my business in 2015. �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: Okay. Yeah. Yep. And, and I'm just, I mean, obviously like John's Island is very different than it was when you moved here in the eighties and nineties. And can you talk a little bit about the changes that you've seen in John's Island and what does that mean for economic opportunities? MP: Well, I can tell you one thing though. I just remember one thing though. I was getting Alma from her aunt's house and I was driving this raggedy car (laugh). And when I was about to take Bohicket Road, which is one of the main arteries to go to Kiawah, there were hardly any, any cars passing by. They're hardly, I mean, two or three cars will pass per minute. And I can tell you absolutely that, because at the time when I had that little car and I kissing Alma and I realized I was in the middle of—I, I didn't stop to getting onto Bohicket Road. So I was kissing her and then I realized I was in the middle of the road (laugh) but no car was coming. So I'm like, oh boy. I'm yes, because otherwise, I, I would've crashed (laugh) and, and in good thing, and not a whole lot of cars are, were passing by, at that time. I’m talking about 1995. Nowadays traffic, the traffic it's, probably thirty thousand cars passed by per day. So it's, and I can from two or three cars to a hundred cars per minute. That's a big difference. Kiawah, it’s a community for retirees and has grown, lot since then in Johns Island right now is considered the place to be because more than thirty thousand houses are planning to be built over there. So it has grown a lot. And again, another, thing that we saw, and that's why we started this business is that in1994, there were seven or eight families, Mexican families living in the island. Right now, I can tell you, about a thousand Mexican or Mexican descendants, live in Johns Island alone. �Alma López and Mario Puga So in all the Hispanic workers, most of the time they go and work over on Kiawah, Seabrook or within the John Island area. And we saw that necessity. One day during the pandemic, we went to the store actually the gas station. And we saw all these Mexicans trying to get something to, to breakfast in the morning, but they were disgusted about the food that was there. And we thought about, you know, what we should open up a food truck business with breakfast or start a little, just a little stand and see how we sell. And if they like the product when it'll take off from there. KT: Yeah. MP: And that's how it started, actually. We didn't have any work because anyone, I mean, all the places were, you know, closed. Or they don't want anybody in their houses. Like, she does housekeeping, they don't want anybody in their houses because of the fear at the time of contracting the coronavirus. KT: Sure. MP: So, but there were still a lot of landscaping business open and many of the constructions was still going. And we said, well, let's have a little stand in (00:33:08) so, and the first day, we made like twenty meals and we sold two hundred dollars. And then the next day we say, well, let's increase it a little bit. And the next day was two hundred fifty, then two hundred eighty, then four hundred and then five hundred. So it, it, it increased. And we saw the necessity of having a food stand there. And we decided to go ahead and open up this food truck. Yeah. KT: So the business is a year old or AL: No, �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: little more than a year old. AL: Well, let's say the business, how we start, like he said, the stand it's a year and a half. We start after the pandemic. KT: Right. AL: We were not working for two months. We opened in May last May. So this past May was one year. So a year and a half KT: For the truck AL: No, for the food stand. And for the truck, we just have like three months. KT: Gotcha. AL: Yes. But like he said, one of the things is before we start, we thought a lot about selling food. A lot of people in our culture will be saying like, you, if you go to another country, you might want your chicken nuggets, your regular food that you eat, where you grow up. So for us coming here, we want our food. We, I mean, we still like the food from here, but we also want our food. So people go into the gas station and ask, sometimes I don't wake up enough early to make my breakfast. So I stop at the gas station and we just see, what is it, there is not much. So we, we want something else. So we always start in that. We always have that in mind. Right. But it, and selling something for breakfast, but we never did. But then when that happened, when, when I didn't have my job, when he didn't have his job and the pandemic, and we were like, what are we gonna do here? You know? KT: Right. AL: So that's when we start with the stand, KT: Had you ever sold food before? �Alma López and Mario Puga AL: Yeah. KT: You had, yeah. MP: Yeah. KT: So you had, what, where did you sell food? Like at construction sites or AL: No, people that we know. MP: First time we sold food was just before we went back to Mexico in 1999. KT: And so for a long time, you've made food, but, not like a business, MP: Not like a business. Right. You just make tamales on Saturdays, tamales or on Sundays we sold the menudo, which is a dish. But it was like sporadically, we sold that. KT: Right. Right, right. Right. MP: And then in ‘97 also we started selling barbecue, Mexican barbecue. It’s goat meat, cooking a pit. And we also did it. It was in 1997, but it was just spontaneously. It's not, not really a business or something that we wanted to consider doing a business. KT: Yeah. Who's the cook who has the expertise? AL: (Laugh) MP: She does. She, she's the one with the touch. KT: These are, so these are your recipes and you're, you're kind of, yeah. Yeah. Is that, are these things you learned from your grandmother? AL: A little bit I would say a little bit, because back in the place where I grew up, it was mostly me with the farm, with the chickens, with the horses, (laugh). So getting meal, making cheese, all of that. That was my job when I was little with my grandparents. KT: So you've been doing this for �Alma López and Mario Puga AL: So it's not much in the, in the kitchen. KT: Yeah. AL: I did not learn a lot from, from where I grew up, but I guess I like it that I make my food. I mean, (laugh) KT: Yep. AL: Yeah. You know, sometimes you like you look and you do it. KT: Sure, Yeah. I'm curious about empanadas though. Why empanadas? Why are they, or what else do you have on the menu? Do you usually mostly, are you doing tacos? MP: Or I'll show you what with it at first, in Mexico if you go to Mexico City and you hit the streets, the street vendors you would have in the mornings: tamales, cuz that's breakfast in Mexico, tamales in a sandwich and recently bake bread and you have a tamale inside there. So that's one of the breakfast. Then you have like orange juice or a milkshake or like egg with beans and that's the breakfast with the tortilla. But you also have, there are street vendors where they had three different, well, not really three they're like they're like twenty dishes. Yeah twenty dishes, different dishes. It goes from chicken to cow liver to what you just ate, chicken beef, pork, AL: No cows and chicken liver. Okay. That (laugh) MP: And so you have twenty different dishes. AL: That you just choose, you just choose. MP: So they put a tortilla, rice beans, and then the meat that you wanted. So that's your breakfast. A breakfast morning taco is this big with a lot of carbs in (laugh). So that's the Mexican breakfast and that's what we started doing. So every day we had four different dishes and we change every day. But now that we have the food truck, because �Alma López and Mario Puga we wanna expand our business into the Caucasian so that they'll come and eat. We only making certain dishes and, but not the all the dishes AL: That we sometimes we have different dishes, like one or two not usually there. But what we have in the food truck is, and chicken empanadas, beef empanadas, ham and cheese empanadas, tacos. We have, chicken tacos, beef, pork, chicharron, which pork MP: Skin, KT: Pork skin, pork fried pork, pork. Yeah. They're pork rinds. MP: Pork rinds but in a green sauce AL: We also have crepes. We also have milkshake, juice, but juice make on a scratch. MP: In a blender AL: And a blender. What else, we have quesadilla. And then when you order quesadilla, you order whatever you want, chicken meat, beef. So torta, we also have what else? Tostada, the crepes have a lot of fruit inside. So yeah, that's basically, KT: I have so many, so many more questions to ask you, but I also want to make sure that the students get a chance to ask questions too. But I do want you to tell me the story of the truck, because you went a long way to get a truck, right? AL: We went, MP: Well, AL: (Laugh) MP: Actually, we set up our budget. So we were thinking about financing and we looked at the food trailers that they built in Florida and in Georgia and for the custom �Alma López and Mario Puga food trailers that we wanted, it was like $36,000 to $42,000 range, which at the, at that particular time, we didn't have that much money. So we thought about financing it. And, and then we saw one that was advertised in Facebook and it was $15,000. And it was with some of the stuff that we needed and we thought, well, you know, that's not right. I don't think it's the right price, but let's call them anyways. So we did. And so these are manufactured in Mexico and because of the free trade agreement, they don't pay much of a taxes and you can bring them here, but they only bring them to Texas and you have to go and pick the trailer up over in Texas. So, and you know, that was within our budget and we thought, well, yeah, let's do it. And actually when we order the food trailer, custom food trailer, they told well, we have one already with this, this and this. And instead of a sixteen foot trailer, it was an eighteen foot trailer. And this, they told that they can sell it for the same price. Okay. So we did AL: So yeah. Yeah. We just order some more stuff like the oven and things that we order to put it together. But I don't think the, to order everything was not that much of the time and all of that, the time was we brought down here in November, remember was Thanksgiving. We thought we were gonna be opened by December or MP: January, AL: This January. No, it took so much time to the business to open the permission stuff. MP: A food trailer. It's, AL: We all this time, all this months since November and we open in July all this time. �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: So for a food trailer, business to be running accordingly, you have to have a commissary, which is a restaurant or someone that could back you up or prepare the food there at the restaurant then sell it at the food trailer. And that's one of the things you have to have all the business licenses and state local, and you have to pay taxes for here in Charleston area taxes there are called KT: Hospitality, MP: Hospitality taxes. Exactly. So into, in order to get everything together, it took about seven months to open up the business. AL: And he's the one who did all of this. I'm the one who's in the kitchen most of the time putting it together and he's with the paperwork and everything. Yeah. MP: So, yeah, it's a little bit complicated. KT: Oh, I'm sure. MP: But yeah, it's worth it. KT: It's it's been satisfying though, to have the business (laugh)? AL: Let me, let me answer that because I don't know about Mario (laugh) Mario was, is ready to close that down. He's tired. (Laugh) MP: It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming because to AL: took all of this time, yes. And he wants to close it. MP: And for me all of the process and not sleeping well and over stressing myself for this business. And it took a toll on me. And it is not really the business part. It is actually that everything involved there because in order to sell, you have to wake up at four o'clock in the morning, get everything prepared at six thirty, you have to start selling, at nine you close down. But if you extend it to breakfast and lunch, then it'll take �Alma López and Mario Puga you from four o'clock in the morning to eleven o'clock at night. So you only sleep in five hours a day. And that's yeah, that's no problem in the three first months, but after six months, a year, AL: Yeah, we have MP: Been doing, it really takes a, a toll on your mental health. AL: We have been doing this, like I said last year, a year and a half. And right now we wake up at four, but we used to wake up three going to bed around twelve because I, we have the food truck, but I also have my business cleaning business. So after selling food, go to business cleaning, when you come back, go to preparing, prepare everything, clean everything. And so that's the reason you're very, very tired. MP: Yeah. It's a challenging, I mean, it is worth it though because just by having like on Sunday, we were selling food and three kids came by probably eight year, year old kids. And the satisfaction of hearing when "aye men your food is so good". AL: (Laugh) MP: And like, oh, thank you. I mean, kids will tell you the truth so it was pretty satisfying. And I told them, you know, they like it. So, but, AL: But it is very tiring. MP: It’s very tiring. AL: In my opinion, we have been selling food, like we said before, but not like a business from all of these jobs that I have before. And, but this one, the food, this one takes most time. More tiring it's really, MP: It was really �Alma López and Mario Puga AL: Hard, really hard. Because not to just prepare the food, you go and sell the food, but come back and clean everything after that. And it's time to prepare everything again. So, and my regular job, I go do my job, come back and I can rest, but not this one, this one doesn't have time to rest. So in my opinion, yes of all my jobs, this one is the hardest. MP: And again, we have help now. So it's taken a little bit of the burden from us. Again, if it's if the make, if we make enough money, yeah, off course. It'll, we'll hire more people, but for now AL: Continue, if not, he'll close out. MP: Yeah, it is gonna come to the point of deciding what's more important in your health or your business. So KT: What questions do y'all have anyone wanna jump in? Speaker 1: So I'm curious about the breakfast. So I live in Florida, not originally, but I live there and I get I'm a sucker for good Mexican, and I've never had like Mexican breakfast and the Tamale sandwich. I'm just really curious about that. AL: Oh, that you're not gonna find that everywhere. Mostly Mexico City. Yeah. Speaker 1: Living in Mexico. MP: Yeah. In many of the big cities in Mexico, they are food vendors, street food vendors that they do that. And actually, AL: But mostly, I mean, I have been asking not many sell it. They call it the guajalota. MP: The female turkey, AL: Female Turkey, �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: Female Turkey. (laughs) MP: Yes. It tastes pretty good, I mean, it's one of those foods that boy, we don't make it ourselves. But yeah, if you ever go to Mexico, just find a food vendor on the streets, they're everywhere. And yeah, just ask for a tamale within a sandwich. AL: We didn't mention, but that's a good point. When you say the Mexican breakfast, I have not seen nobody selling breakfast with a food truck. I don't. Well, you don't see food Mexican breakfast. It's mostly. KT: Tacos and burritos AL: Yeah. You see people during the day or in the afternoon, but not in the morning. So let's say we did, I feel like we did a good decision doing Mexican breakfast cause something that you don't find Speaker 1: That's that seems like it's definitely like a, a rarity. Yeah. Like I've never, MP: Yeah. Speaker 1: Would've never thought about it MP: Yeah Speaker 2: So coming to America, like, I'm sure you've seen places like Taco Bell, Chipotle, Moe’s. Do you feel like, like the food that you grew up eating has had like a bad American twist added to it? MP: It just that, you know, you have your cultures and your taste of cultures. If you go to Mexico, it totally tastes different. This, what we make is getting as close as you getting Mexico food. But you know, still better over there is just that the ingredients. And for example the kind of chickens that they grow in Mexico are totally different that they �Alma López and Mario Puga grow here in the United States. They cannot bring specifically chicken because of the— I guess they get sickness apiarian flu or something. So the chicken meat that you get over there in Mexico is yellowish. And here's more whiteish, creamish. I'm not really sure, but it tastes totally different. And that makes a difference in flavor. AL: Yeah, when— I'm sorry—your question was if, you asked me if I go to Chipotle I don't think I ever gone to Chipotle or Taco Bell. My kids like the quesadillas, but no, it's not the same. It's not the same at all. For me, in my opinion. Let's say I made these jalapenos, I made the tortillas. The tortillas I didn't buy in the store, made it the meat, we put everything there. I mean is cooked. So the empanadas is the same. So everything, when we cook is made from scratch, that's why we say, and we were very tired. Cause everything is from a scratch. We make everything. So it's, it is very tired. It is very good. (Laugh) well, It’s what I think (laugh) Speaker 3: What's your favorite thing to make and what's your favorite thing to eat? AL: Everything. I think I gained maybe twenty more pounds after (laugh) after I'm selling food. But my favorite thing are the ones I put in the oven beef, barbacoa, turkey, cochinita, which is here too. And the pork rinds Yeah. That's I think my main, MP: What I like is she does, she does shrimp and crab and a special Chipotle salsa, which is amazing. So, and we go down on the creeks on John Island, we catch the crabs from there and we have to kill him ourselves and everything. But that, that's a very good dish, I think, from all of the dishes that she does. That's the best one. AL: I don't, we don't sell seafood because we don't have, we just didn't want to get the permission for that. I mean, we could �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: To do what permission for MP: Selling seafood. KT: For seafood. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was wondering about that because, I mean, that's, I mean, obviously you have seafood in Mexico, but have you made some adjustments to John's Island to like the local produce that's available or the seafood, or like crab, crab wouldn't be a common item right in Mexico. MP: No, AL: No, MP: No, no. And actually we were thinking about doing the shrimp and grits. KT: Ah, MP: Cause she, she did that and she put a little bit of spicy in it and it was pretty good. AL: We're thinking KT: To, but it's hominy, right? It's hominy like in a posole. MP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, AL: Yeah, because we just recently opened the food trailer. We wanna start with this and we say, okay, if we wanna put it something more, MP: Something else AL: We will. Yeah. KT: Other questions. AL: Do you like the food? What do you like the best? Speaker 3: That was the first time I've ever had an empanada AL: Really, what can you have babe? I �Alma López and Mario Puga Speaker 3: Had the beef one. That was really good. I've always like seen pictures of them or like in Spanish class, like they're in all of the books or like the videos that we watch, but I never actually MP: Yeah. Like Speaker 3: A mole. AL: Yes. MP: And in fact this, this Friday we have— because we are pretty much involved still in the community. We are helping out a couple that are actually are living with us and their daughter's gonna have a facial surgery and they have the means to pay the operation. So we help them, help them, helping them out. And we are gonna make mole. AL: We're gonna make mole to sell. Yeah. Yeah. Thirteen, twelve dollars. The plate has the mole with chicken, beef, I mean beans, rice, tortilla, and the drink. Awesome. Speaker 4: What is your food truck located? AL: John Island. KT: But are you mobile or where do you set up the truck? AL: AL: We are mobile? KT: Close to Kiawah? AL: We did first, when we recently opened, we were close to Kiawah. But you know Kerr--, what is the name? Kerrison? MP: Parkway Kerrison AL: Kerrison, they pass by very fast. So many, many the clients keep saying it's not easy to stop where you are. �Alma López and Mario Puga KT: Right. AL: So you, they said we can also have an accident because they go so fast. So we moved here at close to KJ’s where the chiropractor MP: Is Main Road, Bohicket, Main Road and Maybank. KT: OK, where all come together. AL: (00:58:36) KT: And I'm just thinking that there's like, there's so much competition now with food trucks and, AL: But not breakfast, KT: But not with the breakfast. That's that's your niche. Yeah. Yeah now AL: Yes. I'm sorry. No, no, Speaker 4: You are okay. I'm curious. Do y'all guys have like a Facebook page or some type of social media we could follow? So we know like where to go or AL: Like that? Yes. Yes MP: We can. It's it's called Huey Calli AL: When you, we call, Mario Puga: We gotta put, we go. Alma López : Not just with Cali. �Alma López and Mario Puga MP: It is called. Huey (writing in a board) AL: El palito no. MP: I forget how to write it. It's in Nahualth what means big house and that's where the place she grew AL: And there was some Facebook. KT: Yeah. We'll, we'll make sure everybody has that link. So we're, we're right up against our, our class deadline, our, our course teams. But thank you both so much for, for doing this again. I don't know if did, I can't remember if I mentioned this, but Ms. López conducted interviews with both Alma and with Mario which I'll send you the links to those, but in those interviews, they talk much more about the process of immigration and they talk about their, their international love story that took Mario you know, all the way from Mexico to the us to track down Alma which he, he did pretty in incredibly that you were able to find her and, and reconnect. And so all the, you know, those stories are in those, those interviews. MP: Yeah. And actually Charleston Historical Society made a small video KT: A video, right? Yes. The historic Charleston foundation found AL: Tangled Roots. MP: Tangle roots. So you can find her story there. AL: (Laugh) Thank you. KT: Thank you both so much. AL: Well, thank you. Both of you for inviting us. KT: It was great. I'm going to eat. AL: Go ahead. Go ahead. It's yours. �Alma López and Mario Puga � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/f9d10f4caa90e04a3fdc2d48bc7539aa.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=dYaasXXHqBC5eKVqZ-QNRnPmNLZtejuSk8llgppOR6GtJTNGf53wX5j62zbWgpTv0uoQjihpyE0tUboOMPkHb%7EyxkNqS67cR3w8h42FXgMkfsLuCdZR%7Eq-rrwmxcIG7-SeKctlsKeZ9IDNPueXxss2nFbeR36zoGG00XGMC0RXgUbVu6zMYZDDA3hWXH4ln6nOTF2BZEhrSe7e8shw-Ma10bahbwmWpSPa7%7EKM8xLhGj1Css%7EixkC8qbeK%7E541kWXUhlsWHyng%7EiYJJLwgxXi2PWJThZicNK4ocORsNvA-%7EcrGnpPUoKeXNwWm6e-9QnKvwdeQxGukPPzUAr3taUfg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM acca337f60f611e0d30851fd75e865df Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Taylor, Kieran W. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed López, Alma Puga, Mario Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 1 minute Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alma López and Mario Puga, Interview by Kieran W. Taylor, 6 October 2021 Subject The topic of the resource Hispanic Americans--Southern States Entrepreneurship Food trucks--Southern States Description An account of the resource Alma López and Mario Puga were born in Mexico. In this interview, they focus on their experiences as workers. Puga tells he started working at a young age with his father and asserts children mature quickly in Mexico. As a young man, he joined his brothers in Rhode Island, where he finished high school. When he returned to Mexico, he met López. She worked in housekeeping. Later, both separately immigrated to the United States. López was with her family in Johns Island and Puga joined her. There both worked in agriculture and progressively moved to less physically demanding jobs. López learned English at Our Lady of Mercy and became active in the community. In 2015, she opened a cleaning business. In 2020, the COVID pandemic caused a severe decrease in revenue in her business. Seeking a way to support themselves during these trying times, they decided to dig into their cultural roots and sell food. They knew there was a need: Latino workers did not have a place to buy breakfast in the morning. López and Puga discuss the nuances of the food truck business and assert that it is a very tiring activity. They state the biggest reward in this endeavor is to share their food with their clients and receive their appreciation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-10-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2008 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/2f3253a3f9ae24e24a09a3b6e19f3f83.jpg?Expires=1779321600&Signature=qha%7EWDZoT3xXae%7E9hTF0vWSOikkkXiccchBEhkuksBVTozOhqdlHnb62ueTAe1Q7mjjJLeri97YMcJgtP8flIgIakqjUoV8RCpTRKVHYwwnHf41bA9KNM5z3cDBIQaD8d7yUFFvtxJmo9Qp3q8LUc2DJbppJVcwUG65z0gPS9K7yoX3BMxUXPoJZUIiOnwKtwj40C49hBeGdaG0-uYJ1ZAdI2mrksonzM3CknmyxDoYslNP-%7EXicItlBl5rZOcqpZPp8j7YG%7EENhfbq9WtZgYQMHEVMwnscqvhNsJAUl5A4QjSUEhmc089w8NWBCVfNbv3D2ttEReSzOkM25672Cqg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d15c72d483f065d7471bc9456b05b328 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/153b84855d719df6e5fc7726e5e71276.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=MJxQG8qvxgB1vUa24HbbhjwIT2pxvBdpvuJWs7StmpTge%7EhfbY6h6hCUhiXED-KiCi9kzRiAEt%7E87ebBEuo%7EgZ9zpEswX6FqVAbQElHHkxEdLFd8-NW%7EqQ%7ESm2KYv7h9os%7EIymQGvFdWpDOMvxx2EMm52o996vAXK6O-6bJpRLO73ZLDNIaJ0BaDhsX-l-bfFKL9wcd35pZEDXdBt2B0lVGsy9LkVS9zaufb2WIr3-uWvxPzXx268SJR2W7F84hr0voYtBFrue99cRb4enkQe3M9pEkz-w9YILuE4Tk8lNLE2CQahEnUH6xcdUzri64pjzaSllzBDKGe2QFu5Fp9pA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9641536bb7c1067de1091ceabc5387d0 PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPTION - JOHN HOLENKO Interviewee: JOHN HOLENKO Interviewer: DANIEL REEVES Date of the interview: December 7, 2021 Place of the interview: Charleston Length of the recording: 00:27:15 DANIEL REEVES: Let's do it. Well, if you don't mind, if you can just state your full name. JOHN HOLENKO: Sure. John Holenko. DR: Perfect. All right, Mr. John, the first question I'm going to ask you is where are you from? JH: I'm from Denville, New Jersey. So, I lived in New Jersey through high school. Then I moved to Boston, went to school, lived there for five years, and then Los Angeles. DR: Perfect. How was living in New Jersey? What were some of the childhood memories you can remember? JH: You know, I lived in a little small town on literally a dead end street with four houses, that had a little stream running through one of the properties and forest of the side and stuff. �John Holenko DR: Nice little community right there. That's awesome. Did you have any brothers or sisters? JH: I've got a younger sister and a younger brother. DR: Are you guys pretty close? JH: Yeah. Yeah, we are. DR: That’s awesome. Well, how did you first get into music? JH: You know, my grandfather played a little bit of guitar and ukulele. My grandmother, on the other side, my dad's side, played some classical piano, so I heard music. It's oddly enough, nobody really in my family was that into music particularly, but I just sort of was taken with it. The main person in my family was somebody by marriage. My mom's cousin married a woman who was a professional clarinet player and a fair person. And that was kind of my main contact with an actual musician. DR: Would you say how it impacted you to start music? JH: Well, it showed me that there was a way to do it and actually make a living. Up until then I thought it was you were either in the Beatles or you weren't. DR: What music did you like listening? JH: I listened to rock. I listened the Beatles. I liked folk music and stuff. My dad was into big band music and some jazz. My grandfather who played a little bit of ukulele was a huge Frank Sinatra fan. �John Holenko DR: That's awesome. What was the first, musical instrument you ever learned to play? JH: The piano probably, I took piano lessons. DR: So that was a fundamental instrument to learn. After high school, did you ever have like a little band or anything that you did? JH: Yeah I had bands, you know, sort of formed my first band in junior high. I think in seventh or eighth grade, I met a drummer and a bass player. We put something together. I was kind of in the high school band of the main band in high school. I knew I wanted to do music. So I went off to do it. DR: Any fond memories you had with your band or any like little things that stand out to you? JH: Oh, you know, actually, I mean, one of the big memories is we played like the big graduation party, which I actually have a recording of. My—the drummer, the guy who played drums for us was real into recording stuff. And he had a nice tape, you know, cassette tape deck, like made a cassette of it. And years later burned that onto CDs. We all a copy of that. It's, you know, sort of embarrassing. DR: But still, I was gonna say, at least you have it though and you can still look back. So, after high school and everything, what'd you do after? �John Holenko JH: So, I went to the New England conservatory in Boston and studied classical guitar. Got my undergraduate degree in that. Then went off to the University of Southern California in L.A. and did my master's degree in classical guitar. DR: Wow. So, two different atmospheres from Boston to California goodness gracious. What about, you know, during your times there anything sticks out, let's, we'll start with Boston. What about when you were in Boston? Any cool projects? JH: Well, you know, yeah. I mean, I did a lot of crazy. I mean, I was really thrown into this thing. I didn't, like I said, nobody in my family played music really. So, it was like all of a sudden I met this conservatory, I mean, pretty heavy-duty stuff. I spent a lot of time in a practice room, playing my guitar and, gigging around town a little bit, doing some stuff. Actually did my first sort of recording in a recording studio there, played all over the place in Boston nothing, nothing tremendous. DR: What about California? JH: Then California was a little different, a little more ready to sort of do stuff, but you know, it is an interesting place, L.A., because it is sort of the center of the music business. But as a classical guitarist, it's like the furthest thing from the music business you could possibly imagine. DR: Did you have to adapt pretty much? JH: Yeah. I mean, it was a real different thing. There was like, not that many sort of gigs to be had. There was like this one restaurant in Pasadena, The Raymond, that �John Holenko hired a classical guitar. But I was on the sub list and in front of me on the sub list were my teacher and two people from the LA guitar quartet who were already out there making recordings. So, it was like very rarely that gig came away. And that's the kind of stuff that was, ahead of me in line, you know, it was a little tough, but it was a, I mean, it was, it was an interesting city. I don't know if you ever been out there, but it is L.A. is, you know, at the time, just the traffic. One of my experiences, musically, out there was, I got a job teaching at some conservatory in Palos Verdes. Which was, if there was no traffic, forty-five-minute drive, south of LA. Two weeks in a row, I sat on the hood of my car in a five-lane traffic jam on the 405 or whatever, watching my lesson times go by. Cause that's what happens out there. You spend time on the freeway. And I was just like, wow, I'm not doing this. You know? DR: So after California, where'd you go? JH: Briefly back to New Jersey to live near my folks and sort of see about New York. Then my wife at the time got a job here at the College of Charleston. So, we moved down here, I taught at the college, and I taught at Charleston Southern, and then started teaching studio. DR: So, tell me how did the studio like come to be and everything? JH: Just to be nice about it, the college and I didn't exactly see eye to eye on how things were gonna go. Maybe I'm just not cut out for that kind of academic life. I don't know, but did pretty well at Charleston Southern actually doing stuff. But anyway, the job fell through at the College of Charleston and we needed stuff to do. So we just �John Holenko started, I mean, I’ve always taught. And so, we just sort of rented some space and started teaching private students. And, you know, one room turned into a couple rooms, turned into, an actual space, off of [Hwy]17 on Daniel Street. Which after a number of years turned into, we need something bigger than that. We actually bought a building, West of the Ashley, I had just sold it a couple of months ago. We were there for fifteen years and then sold that building. And, this space was available here at Fox Music. So, now here. DR: How did the name Hungry Monk come to be? JH: So, my wife at the time and I were in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and we were doing some music stuff and we went into this little cafe and the guy said, “you can sit anywhere you want.” He said, “except over here. These monks are coming in for, this is breakfast, right.” So, we sat down, we had our, you know, I didn't see any monks right. At the end of our breakfast, this train of Tibetan monks comes in. Right? Saffron robes, and the whole thing, it was so striking. And it was like, we were like “Tibetan monks? This restaurant? Shouldn't they be like on a mountaintop fasting or something?” And we thought “maybe they have been, you know, and now they're hungry.” So, we just got this image of the, of these, hungry monks and it just became a thing. DR: I love that. That is so cool. That's awesome. How has music like impacted you personally? JH: Well, I mean, it's what I do. It's the only thing I've done. You know, so I teach, I've taught always. I remember my first actual guitar lesson, when I was a teenager. I came home, my next door neighbor came over and said, “what did you learn?” And I �John Holenko showed him and I like, so I immediately like had this thing of like showing somebody else what I knew, you know. And so that's just always, what I've done is, played music and, and taught music, and, and taught in privately at college level, little workshops, master classes, I've traveled around a bit. DR: What's like the one memory that just stands out to you in your music career so far? JH: Well, so, probably the most kind of amazing thing was, for a while there, I played medieval music on historic medieval instruments. We played an Early Music festival in Regensburg, Germany. We played medieval music in a building that was built in the 1200s. So that was pretty cool. DR: That is incredible. So, what instruments do you play? JH: So, I'm theoretically a guitar player and I've picked up the mandolin over time. You can see, I can play a little banjo. I can play ukulele. Like I said, I studied piano as a kid but I don't really play the piano. With one hand, I can play. I played actually saxophone in high school, but I never really liked that. DR: What's the one instrument you want to learn now? JH: The fiddle, violin. I would really, you know, the mandolin and the violin are tuned the same way. And so, this hand, I know where the notes are. But every time I try to do the bow, it's just a nightmare. The violin, you know, you spend a lot of time making �John Holenko a really bad sound, you know, scratchy. Anytime I've ever picked it up I've just gotten disgusted with it and put it down. But it would be cool to be able to play for sure. DR: Where's one place you want to go to get play at or anywhere in particular that just stands out to you? JH: I don't know. I've played in some pretty nice halls and whatnot, I suppose, some amazing concert hall somewhere. I don't know where exactly; I've never played in Carnegie Hall. I guess that would be pretty amazing, you know? DR: Do you like playing in low key areas, like coffee shops? JH: I've done all that stuff. I like the small sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, I do that all the time. This past Sunday I played at the farmer's market on James Island. I've played, here in Charleston at the Gaillard, the Sottile, at the Music Hall, all the sort of big places, the Dock Street Theater and whatnot, you know, big places, little places. DR: How do you say the music atmosphere in Charleston is, do you say it's growing? JH: It is, it's really quite vibrant for, I mean, you know, the size of this city. Which is really pretty small, there was a, there's a thing in school, in college, particularly Boston and L.A., big cities. You know, it's like, well, if you wanna make it the music business, you gotta be in a place that there's a scene and all that kind of thing. But I didn't really like L.A. particularly as a city, as a place to live. Which is why we moved back east and maybe New York, maybe Boston, and then coming down to here. It's amazing, �John Holenko with Spoleto, various arts festivals, and the fact that this is one of those cities along with the big cities like New York, L.A., Chicago, I guess Boston, where the organ players at the churches downtown, that's a huge job. Like, that's like a major job. That's not just like playing the piano at the church. You know, it's like a real thing. And this is kind of one of the few cities, certainly this size that has that level of music going on. That kind of feeds the whole thing. There's always been a symphony here and there's always been a traditional folk music scene. DR: For like growth, what do you wanna see from Hungry Monk personally? JH: I don't know, having taught at all kinds of different levels, I really get a kick out of teaching young kids and giving them their sort of first lessons in like what this is all about. I mean, you don't have to speak to many musicians to hear horror stories about teachers who wrap their students on the knuckle and make their lives miserable. I've always tried to not do that. I think it's incumbent upon me to grab these young people and old people who are starting out and give a good attitude towards playing. So, I like doing that. You know, playing wise, I'd certainly like to be doing more kind of higher-level sort of performances and things like that. It's come and gone, sometimes I'll play bigger places, play smaller places, whatever. DR: Who have been some really cool artists you've worked with in Charleston? JH: Oh gosh. You know, there's been some interesting people here. I just recently spent some time with a guy named Roger Bellow who ran a place called Town and Country Music here for a number of years. He just recently the past couple years moved �John Holenko to Augusta. Incredible musician, plays everything, but well known for Western swing, guitar and fiddle. He's from Chicago originally, lived here for a long time and I was always thrilled to play with him. There's a woman that I'm working with now in a Brazilian group that I'm doing, named Alva Anderson, and she just moved from New York. I remember meeting her soon after she, she's mostly like a jazz singer, and I don't really play jazz particularly. I always thought, “boy, if there was a way to work with this, but I don't know how I'm gonna ever work with her cause I don't play that kind of music.” And suddenly I'm in Brazilian group and she's singing with us and I get to work with her. DR: I think that’s the cool thing about music though, it is like, how it brings people together and everything. I mean, I think just as I continue to learn music, but just from, when I started learning music and just like when you can pick up an instrument and people will just gather around you and listen. And it just truly is just such a peaceful calm time. I love music so. JH: It is an amazing way to reach people on a different level. I have—probably the weirdest thing I did here in town, there was, years ago, there was this thing that would come through town. It did like three years in a row called One Beat. The state department actually ran it. They did these auditions worldwide, they took twenty five musicians from all over the world. They traveled to somewhere in Florida, spent three weeks getting to know each other and organized their music together after not having known each other. Then they traveled up the coast and Charleston's the first place they stopped, they did some performances, but they also interacted with musicians here. I found myself on stage �John Holenko at this pour house on James Island, playing mandolin, playing a Grateful Dead tune, with a rapper from Senegal (laugh) and that was pretty mind blowing. You know, that's one of those things like, while it's happening, you're going, “I can't believe this is happening.” You know? All real. Yeah. So that was pretty, pretty crazy. DR: Who are your major music influences? JH: I'm a huge Deadhead. I love The Grateful Dead. DR: Has anyone told you about Jerry Garcia? JH: Yeah, I'm big on that. But all kinds of rock music. I grew up on the Beatles and Dylan, I like all kinds of music. These days I've been playing this Brazilian music and really looking into that. And like I said, I played Medieval and Renaissance music too. I actually have a medieval gig coming up in April actually. I'm gonna get the name of this wrong, American Pilgrims. It's a pilgrimage group, a group that goes on pilgrimages. One of the great pilgrimages in Spain is the pilgrimage to Camino de Santiago and in the 12th century, a group of songs, it's hard to say when these songs were written, but Alfonso the 10th, the wise, organized these songs, these, these Pilgrim songs along this route. The Cantigas de Santa Maria. They are songs to the Virgin Mary and there's over four hundred of them. I'm doing a concert for these guys of that music. I did medieval music for about ten years, like I said, we played in this place in Germany. It was really cool, but there's not a lot of medieval gigs out there, you know, it's not like something popular, so we folded that group up after a while, but every once in a while, �John Holenko like something comes up where like it's early, you know, some sort of Renaissance or medieval things. I can usually jump into that. DR: Do you like to write music too? JH: I do write music. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I write, mostly like tunes, like what you might call fiddle tunes, tunes for the guitar or the mandolin. But I write songs as well. Never wrote like an opera or anything DR: You could though! (Laugh.) For someone who's like starting, just starting music and everything, what's like the key advice or something that you would like leave to them about starting an instrument or learning? JH: It's a really tough thing to say to somebody. The big question is always, “how long will it take me to do this?” And my answer is “always the rest of your life.” Like, this is a lifetime pursuit. You are never happy with it. You always want to get better at it. There is, oh, you think there's a goal to reach, but as soon as you get there, there's another one. You know? And so if you're not looking for this for the long haul and to be extremely frustrated by it too, it really, you should do something easier, like, you know, brain surgery or something. Because it's really difficult. It's a lifetime thing. Having said that, it's also immensely joyful and takes you all over the place, you know? It’s not a negative thing and hopefully that's, I mean, there are some people who take that as a negative thing. “Oh, the rest of my life? I don't know, I don't have time for that.” It’s like, “That’s exactly what you have time for.” (Laugh.) �John Holenko DR: What's the biggest lesson you've learned through your career and everything? Or the biggest thing you've had to overcome or what? JH: I mean, the biggest thing to overcome is just getting out of your own way and putting yourself in positions where there are people who are better than you that have something to share with you. Like I don't like being the best musician in a group of people. I would rather not be the best, I would rather have somebody there who's showing me something and I guess that kind of goes with everything. I mean, you're in college, you put yourself there because, you know, there's things you don't know and you want to learn them, not everybody's up for that. You know, not everybody's up for being in that sort of position, they want to be the smarter one, in charge, you know. DR: So true. How, did COVID, affect you guys? JH: It was tough. That was really tough. I mean, the performances just dried up immediately. So, and I had two major things. One was, we were supposed to play a festival in Florida and that got canceled. And the other one was, I was supposed to play at the Dock Street Theater for a musical by Steve Martin and that got canceled. Now we actually just did that this past September. So when everything stopped, which was like March, April of 2020. All this time later Charleston Stage is back doing performances. And that was the first performance that I did. So I did get to do it, but all that stuff dried up and then the students disappeared and I had to learn how to teach online. DR: How did you adapt from that? �John Holenko JH: That was tough, that took a little bit, it was funny cuz I think about it just the summer before I was in Colorado teaching and some adult that I was working with said, "boy, we like to continue these lessons, do you ever do lessons online?" And I remember saying, "no, I haven't, I have absolutely no idea how to do that. I’m not interested in it." A year later, like that's how I was spending my whole summer online. DR: Looking back though, from when COVID started to now, do you think your confidence kind of grew though? JH: Actually it's been a really good thing because now, sometimes my students they go to the mountains or they go on vacation and they don't have to miss their lesson. We can still do online lessons. So that's been really kind of interesting. The other thing it's done, is sort of pushed us. Myself and one of our piano teacher are working on a Hungry Monk music online. An online music lesson subscription site. We're starting to put videos up, I've got a couple guitar and mandolin videos up on there. It's still in the process of happening, but all of a sudden it’s like, oh this online thing, people are pretty hip to it. It's a way to reach out beyond our geographical location and also beyond my time limitations. DR: What other states do you want to travel to? Are there any states in particular? JH: You know, I've been all over the place. I've never played in Nashville, that would be kind of interesting to go play there. I don’t know. Like I said, lived in L.A. and Boston, played in New York. DR: Have you been to North Carolina? �John Holenko JH: North Carolina, Asheville. All over North Carolina actually. DR: That whole music scene is awesome. JH: So I know the guy who directs the guitar program at App State in Boone and is a friend of mine. He's come down here and played, I've been up there to play at App State. Europe would be interesting. We did that early music festival, I’ve done another trip where we did some playing there. But it would be really kinda neat to, you know, travel to all the major cities there where we could do some playing. DR: Absolutely. Well, if you don't mind, could you play an instrument? If you're comfortable with that. Whichever one you have, I just think it would be kind of cool to have it recorded so people could listen. JH: Let's see. What about that medieval music. So this is one of the tunes. One of the cantigas. There is over four hundred. I don’t remember. [Plays music] DR: Incredible. That was awesome. That was beautiful. Just as we, conclude for the music industry as a whole, I mean, where do you want to see the music industry go or how do you think? JH: You know, I don’t know. I think for myself, I've never really been part of the music industry. I mean, I see the music industry as something other than what I do. I mean, I studied in school, I studied classical music, which is on the very edge of the music industry. As a classical guitarist, it's on the edge of that. I've done everything from played for Spoleto, played with the symphony, and I’ve done whatever sort of gigs. The �John Holenko industry in terms of like, you know, concert schedules, recording careers, and all that kind of stuff. That's not really what's going on for me and I'm not sure where all that kind of stuff is at. I actually think that the sort of, I don’t know what you want to call it, there's a traditional, which includes electric music, kind of world out there of festivals and venues and things like that that don't necessarily have anything to do with the music. Again, I go back to the Grateful Dead, I mean, a wild successful band that actually was huge and people will remember, in the end, one top ten hit in the thirty-five years or something that they were together, because it's just not what they were after. I guess, for good or bad, that's always sort of been my role model. It's like, you know, if it goes and sells all that kind of stuff, that's fine. I don't really think of things in that term. DR: I love that. Personally, for you though, where do you see yourself want to grow? JH: I don't know. I mean, I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing. Like I said, it'd be nice to do more playing and get more involved in sort of things. I guess despite all my work with classical music and you know, playing medieval music and stuff, I'm more of a traditional kind of musician than a classical musician, but I can, play classical music and I do that. I like just sort of working, I feel like a working kind of person. I mean there's always a job around the corner for me or something for sure. DR: You've worked on music books right? JH: I've published several books with Mel Bay publications! DR: I love that. That’s awesome. How's that been? �John Holenko JH: I really like that. I think that's pretty cool. That usually just comes down to if I'm interested in something, I always go to my computer. If I write something down, even for a student, I eventually put it in the computer. Then once in a while I'll look at what I've got, and like, I've got a whole like books worth of, I did a book on Bach duets for mandolin, like two mandolins, a Renaissance tune book. The way it all started actually was when we played medieval music, we did a couple editions of the music, the medieval music. So yeah, different things. I've got a couple other ideas, it's publishing, it's out there in the world and stuff, but it's not like academic publishing, it's not like novels. It's not in Barnes and Nobles, you know what I mean? But it's out there and I go to music stores and festivals and stuff. I see my books sometimes. I make tens of dollars on that (laughs.) DR: It’s awesome that it’s just out there if you want to pick it up and learn from it though. Do you have any projects you're working on or any things you want to talk about that's coming up? JH: I dunno about projects. So this medieval thing that I'm doing is sort of a project, because I'm actually incorporating some electronics and stuff. Loop pedals and various effects cuz I'm doing it just all by myself. And I really liked working with the traditional medieval instruments, but I'm doing this all on modern instruments: guitar, mandolin, maybe the banjo. So, I'm trying to figure out how to make that sort of sound like something. And this Brazilian music that we're doing is an ongoing kind of research into what that stuff is. DR: That's awesome. I appreciate it. This is awesome. Perfect. �John Holenko MLL 8/25/22 RS 8/29/22 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/00d391e2e5a41329a90055343cec87f6.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=erWpJlpQiSQsXR%7EEYa4dieZ0Xzs2WRrs29FjCIdoFQg1cw0Xl3w9k9o%7Ei%7E2-zl9kZlFhqMi0L6fBhNELE7yhuoPA3hOo3IIYk4Lm3dRQLBjtXEqWLYKrPcKTDuw82TsPM-LLuBLIUbybUi0XqE6xFrPa9tp7U8afFbXY3ku3YlzvgAF-rcCsXl9MEIuv0lZ0g%7EKSsXn40bqq47Xw1bCIHOlZEf2gFIfscnb2HySkkETLJoyyjBe1PXmZR%7EBNs3zxpWYp5l5c-vz4fSQ6fTvxhfqa2SyPixgFLPow5aKO6%7Eu-VdV8y2SFKPWBQkihzOpbSAYp9Z5OrRozR9y5r%7E3G9Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 889133ba38681becc025dc31fdab3609 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Reeves, Daniel Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Holenko, John Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John Holenko, Interview by Daniel Reeves, 7 December 2021 Subject The topic of the resource Music entrepreneurship Musicians Guitar player Hungry Monk Description An account of the resource John Holenko is a musician from New Jersey with a master’s degree from the University of Southern California in classical guitar. In this interview, Holenko explores how his interest in music began, his journey of getting into gigging in Boston and California, and then eventually settling in Charleston, South Carolina. He now owns his own studio, Hungry Monk, where he gives music lessons to others. The name of his studio has its own story of how it came to be, as Holenko encountered actual Tibetan monks in a café that inspired the name. He also lists some of the places he has performed himself, including an Early Music Festival in Germany. Furthermore, Holenko touches on how COVID-19 affected his business, his personal music influences, and even provides some advice for those that are interested in getting into music. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-12-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2007 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/0486afb3ee75958f71e45bacd7d672e2.jpg?Expires=1779321600&Signature=DP%7Eu48ZnzrDnHjst5s17XC5QrRE-z0VJX4ea4sd%7ER%7E8Mc-qulwnt45agMAVzj9eB1ZuE3nW-VoviZjZgBN1Mia3iDK3X2G9ccsw93z4dUAMf4n-t5RG0jDx55UhloVLPX0e7SWVOT8CDHu06VVSrGb7UW9J1HMfj-xdNOMgy7QJbDl1Ug1qIgR%7E6AVI%7E7LEBLf-ps6U2zZAmMEkXEOVwpB8f7urLy3tMazxLmpJfF7apPcrO4lz3eg23KBO%7Ev38UR%7EIaawFrWmoxG1CcV-XZ1fFCQv-CnI0CfYeptuimWjopYxSNxyMnl6zX21Hf8ex5siVuERXnTiPoTjN8qcA92g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 425bf3ccdf8eb7b0beb59c2d7f782ce0 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/378309fc0b70ae0a506db149912f90f8.pdf?Expires=1779321600&Signature=EnZea1oRZCwbS9CPhiXu0TjdiLhIs79GHXM5%7EMucaYxG11AN93wTbBqnahnYU8K05x4tgBKX8kQ6MWOkuGrcykGX1kt4XR6efPl2bFniyy4a9LmLSShi8Sl8p8HP9%7EOTm5eOxAng39WqYBrfDAsOvilIR0FF5Ljw%7EKCnmqcC-7wymVtJPqeptrjnaVotJd9E0ozQST38sSLK3QCTl5%7EH7rsbGqPWqM6P5rzNKJskqQutpzDO6khYGAtkkBeUG672j9v3AUvBaBinq9bWgjgz5nO9HZG5lekMiz8OF6M%7EwvrJzBQ3oq%7El0ZyGI5hMWMV%7Eqy%7E%7ETs1lk-geYpFqsWfscg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 31ac45cee38141352d56a7ae82c273ac PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT- COREY CLAYTON Interviewee: COREY CLAYTON Interviewer: AZI WEAVER Date: December 1, 2021 Place: Charleston, SC Length of recording: 00:39:48 AZI WEAVER: All right, so it should be recording now. I'm here with—you could introduce yourself. COREY CLAYTON: I'm Corey Clayton, College of Charleston graduate, University of Alabama Birmingham graduate, a member of Omega PSI Phi Fraternity, Inc., and I work for Brownstone Construction Group. I have the unique pleasure of building the African-American Museum, the International African-American Museum. AW: I'm cadet Azi Weaver. I'll be interviewing you today. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to sit here with me and interview, just for my own sake and editing we’re outside of the Basic Science Building here at MUSC. So you're going to hear like car horns and all kinds of loud noises, but it is what it is. You've got to have this interview, make it work somehow. CC: We could possibly try to find us a.... AW: I think overall, this would be fine. And if not, it'll be all right. �Corey Clayton CC: If not, we'll make it. We'll make it though. AW: I'll make it work. But, so we're going to slowly ease into the interview. I'm going to start with just some basic questions. Get both of us warmed up. If you could tell me about your first day at your first job, if you can remember it. CC: Hmm. My first job with Brownstone or first day, first job, period? AW: The first day that you can remember at your earliest job. CC: First day on first job would have to be in high school working for a grocery store. So that first day was real exciting. I think still bring that same type of excitement to work every day. Just happy to go make some money legally you know what I'm saying. So full day. Interesting. Ever since I've always had a pretty decent work ethic that was instilled in me from early on. If you don't work, you don't eat. So I was always held that in consideration. And I've always tried to do something I enjoy to do never like fast food. So I've never worked at a fast-food place. So, yeah, my first day of working in high school was pretty much indicative of the rest of your life and you show up and you suit up and you go get it done. AW: Can I ask where you worked? CC: Yeah, it was, Consumer Foods is a bulk food source, basically what the prerequisite to you Costco's and things like that back in the day, but it was way before that, you know what I mean? Super huge grocery store, I started out as a sacker or a bagger and a stocker. I ended up being a bulk food manager. So, Yeah. Start from the bottom, work your way up far as you can. AW: Can you describe what you do now and what got you here? Like education... �Corey Clayton CC: The quality assurance quality control manager for Brownstone. I actually decided to work for Brownstone when I found out that they were the project managers for the African American Museum. I only took the job with Brownstone to work on the African American Museum. Consequently, I found that they were, I already knew they were, a good company. However, working for them proved to be a godsend. So I ended up, as you see, after finishing the project, I'm on, I'm still with them and I don't see me going anywhere no time soon. So it's a good organization, allowed me to develop myself. My education background is — I got my bachelor's in economics from College of Charleston. And I got my master's in engineering from University of Alabama. My background in construction goes back to my great granddad, who was a general contractor and my dad was a general contractor. So all my summers were spent measuring, cutting tape, doing stuff I did not like doing at the time. It was always a pain in the butt for that time, but those soft skills translated into me learning, how to being able to read plans and do things like that. And I always enjoyed taking nothing and making something. But my impetus, like I said, was the International African American Museum. I always had a deep desire to know more, more about our history. That's, you know, most times either omitted or just outright cut out, just not put in there at all. So from an early age, I've always had the support of my parents and my immediate surrounding to always give me access to information about myself. So I always knew about myself. So it, it always caused me to go further down the rabbit hole, now going to the College of Charleston, that being the oldest municipal college in the country. So much history on the one hand is so little history on the other hand. So while I was there, they actually started the African Studies Program with Dr. Bach and they had, they started, a minor African-American studies minor. There were under Dr. [Bernard] Powers and the other brother. I can't believe that it's escaping my mind at this point, but it'll come to me in a minute. But, those two brothers Dr. Powers and Dr. uh, I can't believe, I can't think of a brother's name right now. And I see him all the time at their ASALH �Corey Clayton conference, the Association of the Study of African-American Life and History. I saw him the last time it was here in Charleston a couple of years ago. AW: It's alright, we can come back to it. CC: Anyway, I'll come back to that. But nonetheless, those cats really helped set the pace with the studies that they, they provided an even deeper reading list, if you will, a different set of references that we could go from that took me all over the place. You know, (00:06:55) got the D OP, Dr. John Henrik Clarke, (00:07:00), list goes on and on. Carter G. Woodson was my frat brother. Just opened up a whole world of information. So, to find out that they were going to build the African-American Museum here. I couldn't see nothing else other than having a part in that. I didn't care if I had this dig dirt, dig ditches, it'd be a part of it. But yeah, it was a quite exciting, life altering. Different disposition about working with people to get that done and everything that it took to get to this point with it. So to go through the opposition, to go through the naysayers, to people who don't understand why that even is a necessity. But, yeah, it's crucial to me that I be a part of that. So, in a nutshell, that's it. AW: Right, so can I ask you who, who directly introduce you go to—Never mind, because you found out about Brownstone and all that, can ask then what it like to work at the museum? CC: At times it was extremely humbling. Especially when you think about where that museum is. Cause that museum has more than just a symbolic meaning. It's built on the site of Wharf G [Gadsden’s Wharf], where was where we were originally brought to this country. There was a holding house where they kept our people until they were sold. Right there. That's hallowed ground. That's why it's not built on the ground. If you noticed that that museum was built on piles, columns, and that's specifically because the �Corey Clayton ground is hallowed and there's a lot of souls that are unrested there. So every day that was a humbling, all-inspired situation. Especially when you see it sitting on the water and every day the sunrise, you can only imagine, and that was just another day closer to bringing this to fruition for one. And number two, I always pictured my ancestors being that much happier every day that sunrise when we were out there on that site, erecting something to their behalf, something that'll be here long after I'm gone. That will still stand as a symbol of what is. No matter how you try to erase it, deny it, omit it, there are definite distinct contributions that we have made to this society. Period. I'm not a fan of the divisiveness that's used to determine one way or the other, whether it's relevant. All history is relevant, you can't just pick and choose the parts of history that you decide to tell and, not tell you, you can't just always show yourself in a light where you're a hero, and everybody else is just-sub part that supports a philosophy of supremacy that I don't adhere to at all, nor do I give credence to at all. I think it's a travesty that we still have so many bastions that lend toward it, when we got institutions like the one we're building, so many people out there that a-don't know about it, two; don't care to know about it, or three; see it as something as pointless or futile. But to me, and teach to people who truly understand the significance of it, and that's a lifetime effort that was long overdue, but I think will help, definitely help benefit future generations and help hopefully close some of this gap, this chasm that's being created by, by divisive people. AW: So... CC: And, not to cut you off, but Dr. Dulaney. You knew I wasn't gonna stop until I figured out who that was. Dr. Marvin Dulaney, Dr. Powers, and Dr. Bach. Those three cats kind of channeled my passion and desire for the truth to be told and kind of helped me parallel them. You can only understand what's missing if you know what's there. So you got to know history that as it's presented to know what's missing, but if you don't �Corey Clayton know history, you won't know that you're missing any. So that makes it even more important for that story in the African American Museum, because that presents the part of the story that, like I said, compliments history. It's not just a showcase of (00:12:18), it's the ups, the downs, the ins, the outs. That's history. So in order for us to ensure that we don't, have some of the same pitfalls as previous generations, we got to know what all they went through and not just, not just the ups, what downs did they make, what kind of trials did they really have and how did we really overcome such situations, good times don't necessarily always fix things. It aids in things, but it doesn't always fix it by itself. You got to do things to create that. History is in my opinion, you being a history major you understand the significance of it, without history, you don't know your future. Without history, knowing it, you're bound to repeat it. Which is the scary part to me, because I see so much of history repeating itself, and people acting like, it's something new. We go back to see the predecessors. One of the things that we are looking like to me is the Roman Republic. Moments like the last of the Republic prior to, you know, the longest living Republic lived four hundred something years. America is built on the same premise. We're going through the same, same types of situations that caused, that preempted, the fall of the Roman Republic. We're going through the same things right now. We're not trusting another government; we're not validating facts. We're using a bunch of fear mongering, doing the same types of things. We're not learning from the lessons from the past. A lot of that is because that whole past ain’t there. You know, the highlight, they have it points. So again, yeah, that's about how that is. But... AW: Alright, quick sidebar; if you could, if you have a way to verify the spelling of everybody's names, because we're going to transcribe this interview too. So that way they can get their just credit for bringing you to where you are now, make sure they're not some other random guy who has a similar name gets credit. �Corey Clayton CC: No worries. No worries. I'll do that. Heavy hitters, man, heavy hitters. Now way back in the day, it would have been my track coach, basketball coach, seventh grade teachers is Dr. Bell. We call him Dr. Bell. He's not a real doctor by the way, David Bell, but we call him Doc Bell. He's a Marine veteran from the Vietnam era. But was the most thorough fellow, as far as making sure you knew who you were. He wasn’t taking no shorts on that. That stepping and fetching it. He went out, none of that. You are going to stand up right, you are going to look at a man in his eyes, you're going to be confident in who you are, and you're going to know that you come from more than just people who were turned into slaves. Because we didn't come here slaves. That was a process that took about seventy plus years. I always want to attribute that to 1619, but that's when we had already come to terms that slavery was going to be around. What you figured early 1500s when the first of that process of dehumanization began to create that slave. It's been a lifetime thing for men. To be honest, my life was filled with anger and frustration, with the status of how things were. Telling me on the one hand all the virtuous things, but on the other hand I'm seeing the underbelly of all that; and it doesn't always add up. And you tell me to keep my head down and keep pushing it and I'll eventually work through it; that's not true either. You either become numb to it and just allow that, accept that as how it is, or you buy into it and you feel like you deserve it. Which all of those are false. So this was my life coming full circle, and the almighty giving me the opportunity to see that. Be into you, knowing who you are, will get you to some form of contentment. With knowing that we're going in the right direction, as opposed to just spinning our wheels, I don't know if this will relieve us of the tenants of the things that create the division in the society, but it's a step in the right direction. AW: Over the next question—and now there's a truck CC: (Laughs) The beauties of outdoors. �Corey Clayton CC: Yeah. So I understand that they've been working on the museum for around twenty years now? Is that correct? Or at least from... CC: Concept? AW: From Mayor Riley's first public announcement of the concept to where we are now? Has it been about a twenty-year process? CC: It's been a twenty-year process overall. To be honest, Mayor Riley kind of chimed in afterwards. It was a community call for that, for a long time. Dr. Brown, Millicent Brown, was one of the, one of the founders of that situation. Millicent Brown, she was a history teacher from, I think she taught up at, South Carolina State or Claflin [University]. I can't remember exactly which one it was, but Dr. Millicent Brown, who ironically the Brown of Brown vs Board of Education, that's the Millicent Brown. So it ain’t haphazard that these things came about. No, this wasn't a concept that came outside of our community, but grassroots, but it took twenty years to try to develop and raise money. We couldn't do it, and now once Mayor Riley stepped in, and we credit him for stepping in, and providing some financial backing and bringing more in, I'm not sure who brought who in with that, but I know it was something dear to Mayor Riley to do, and then wanted to send us Robert Smalls Moore who brought his fundraising expertise in, and that's how they put muscle behind it. It was always a grassroots yearning, but they never had the capital. Now once Mayor Riley and Moore got involved, they raised the money, and I credit them for doing an amazing job, raising the money to complete such a project. But yeah, that was an internally derived concept, and it's been needed. So I'm definitely thankful for Mayor Riley for helping spearhead the finances behind it. But like I said, that was purely driven from grassroots, and I credit people like Dr. Brown. �Corey Clayton AW: When we went down to the museum, he talked to us and, if I'm not mistaken, he said they raised close to a hundred million dollars in getting the museum funded and getting everything to where it is now. And I'm just really impressed by how much money has gone into it. CC: Money, time, blood, sweat, tears, the whole nine. I mean, Brownstone being a black-owned firm and having the capacity to work like we did. I don't think. I know I've never been on a project that was like that. That had that much meaning for me, that had that much future impact. And, frankly, I can't wait to go see it myself. I already bought a membership. So I get kind of giddy about that. You know what I mean. Because that’s realization of a life's work. You got a lot of people that didn't live to see it, wanted to see it, but now we got it. I believe our ancestors would be proud of what we put through. Now, to be honest and fair, it's not a true museum because it won't house exhibits. However, it will provide a lot of primary resource material. It will allow us to have a lot of primary data to fill in some of those gaps. I know people today, the hot topic is "Critical Race Theory this; Critical Race Theory that" so many people are off base on what that truly entails, but the one thing that is certain: it's not a divisive means to be included in respectful commentary district. I don't understand why that's such a divisive element. Some people even say "why you need an African-American Museum, we got the Charleston Museum." But there's nothing about us in it other than the fact that we were slaves and they are so much more to not only our accomplishments, but our attributes, the things that we attributed to this country, the things that we can contribute to this country go further than slavery. And if that's the only representation you going to give us, it's ludicrous. AW: Yeah �Corey Clayton CC: Particularly when you want to use the defense that speaking in all honesty that to tell the truth will make somebody feel bad or to not tell the truth makes other people feel bad. It's not about feelings at this point, in my opinion, it's about the fact that we gotta deal with what is, it's not a matter of sensitivity. I always trip when you have racist issues come on, they give you sensitivity training. I'm not understanding; is it that I'm too sensitive or are you too insensitive, but neither one of those really deal with the crux of the matter. The crux of the matter is a human being is being treated not like a human being. If we had the Constitution and the Declaration, these are perfect, as close to perfect documents as you're going to get. All we got to do is honor the words, "all men are created equal." I shouldn't have to prove to you that I'm a man when it's apparent that I am. And you shouldn't expect that I ain’t, just because you don't want it to be, or because it'll infringe, somehow, on your liberties for me to have liberties. So, these are simple things, I think. Simple, however, we make them hard. AW: How long had you been on the project in total from joining Brownstone to I guess within the past week or two, is that right? CC: Well, I still kind of deal with it a little bit, but I got hired Brownstone February, 2019. I came on February of 2019. At that time, Bobby Teachey and some other guys had been working on it for probably a year prior to that. So I came on to give the ability for Bobby to leave a project, to go head that one up. So I went over to the Children's Hospital at MUSC. I worked there probably from February until we closed that part of the project out in July, maybe. And I wanted to go finish up a school in the interim. I finished up Dunston Elementary school over in North Charleston, off of Remount Avenue. CC: After we finished that, I started on the project, and they had the skeleton coming out of the ground. When I got there, we were coming out of the ground. Braid �Corey Clayton beams and pile caps, driving piles and stuff like that. I guess I started in February and started in February of 2020. I worked there from February of 2020 until just a couple of months ago, really, untill May, June. Excuse me, May. Until May. Cause I graduated in May. Graduated and came right here. So, until May. So I got to see everything from taking it out of the ground, swinging all the steel, putting it together. I'm curious to see the final, final result, which I hadn't walked the property in a little bit. So I'm going to go by there within the next week or two and go see where we are. But it was supposed to be open to the public in April. So Brownstone is actually on the other side of the table. We helped build it, and now we're on the side of helping with the exhibit. Helping the museum get the exhibits and stuff. That's what Bobby is doing while I'm over here with this. I'm still associated with the project. It's kind of more of my focus is over here, but trust me, I keep tabs on that daily. I'm not ever going to not know what's going on with the African American Museum and I'm definitely looking forward to going up there to check it out. AW: I don't think I have any more questions for you. I do really appreciate your time. Do you have any questions for me? CC: No. I'm just glad you decided to do it. I appreciate you for having me. Definitely glad to be a part of anything and everything has got to do with the preservation of our history and culture. Anything that could help bring mankind back together, for real, you know? I'm of the volition that there is only one race of people and that's the human race of people. Anything else is a dynamic that's not for us, and solely created for the purposes of being divisive. I'm not with that by any stretch of imagination. Appreciate you brother. AW: I appreciate you too, sir. �Corey Clayton CC: Spears up. PAUSE AW: All right, so this is part two. So you said that Brownstone is a black owned business. Can you tell me about some of the other companies that are working on the project as well? CC: It's actually a Turner is the general contractor that we partnered with to provide the services. A lot of good companies, a good mix. Not as much as I would have liked to see. However, that's an ongoing issue that we're constantly trying to tackle, which is converting some of the skilled labor into qualified labor. Skilled and qualified are not necessarily synonymous. We have more than enough skilled so-called minority people to do things. However, that skill level don't always equate to qualifications i.e. proper bonding, proper insurance, and whatnot. So in that regard, I think we met our small women minority and disadvantaged business owned quota. However, that quote is way too small in my opinion. Especially on something of that magnitude, but it's no different than any other project. Good, good working relationship with everybody, didn't experience more than the normal levels of American life. So that's a daily part of it. Contrary to a lot of people's belief but, I think we're very resilient people to deal with but we deal with them regularly. And I know, you know what I'm talking about, going to the Citadel. So it makes us a lot better people. I feel, you're definitely going to be tested on every front. There is. You just gotta work twice as hard and half the time be twice as smart. So you don't get yourself in a whole lot of mixed-up "this" situation. I'd have to say it was a pretty good mix of contractors. I wouldn't change anything. Even the trouble ones, even the ones that probably troublesome, you're still learning things. If you can overcome adversity to still achieve a �Corey Clayton common goal, I think whatever you got to go through most times is worth it to get to that. As long as you didn't have to kill anybody, no foolishness, but by and large though a good mix people. AW: I guess more specifically then, just tell me a little bit about like the history of Brownstone as a company. CC: Yeah, fifteen years old, Dale Collier president. Good, good brother, man. Best president of a company I've ever worked for because he shows that he really cares. He cares about the development, cares by the family-work balance. We have a good situation. I, personally the only company that I work for that is that I care as much about this one is my own. So, when you get to that point where you can feel like that about it, that's, optimal for me. And I've worked for big companies, small companies, but mostly for myself, I've always pretty much worked for myself. The entire time. Every now and then if stuff gets real hard, I'll go grab another job. However, I worked for myself. But I took this job, like I said, for the African-American Museum and fell in love with the company. CC: So I felt like LeBron, just take my talents down to South Beach. I didn't need to recreate the wheel if I got a whole—my thing was trying to recruit these kinds of people that I'm already working for. So, I worked with them. So when you got a structure where you can work with them, as opposed to for them, that's the mentality that I set out for all my people I've ever worked with. Instead of work for me, work with me. This concept; work with me, not for me. Because I'm a work with you, so we can get what we got to go. And that's Brownstone in a nutshell. Outside of me, myself, working with people; I've never seen an owner of a company come and work with the people. No matter what it is, no job too big or small that he won't step in and roll his sleeves up and get down with us. So how could I not do the same for him? So, we've developed that type �Corey Clayton of relationship. And I got that kind of relationship with the majority of the people in that company. So that's a different, that's another difference. And it's not an all-black company, technically. Technically it is because technically everybody on the planet is black, for lack of better words. Scientifically the millimeter cell is the progenitor of all cells, everything isn't mutually exclusive. So if you're a human being, your ass is black, excuse my language. However, white supremacist philosophy is what creates these divisions amongst us, and created these are the social constructs that we now use as race. But there isn't such a thing, that's all a lark. The bad part of it is that it has real consequences. Even though racism and discrimination, all these things are built on lies, those lies have real consequences. And we've been dealing with them for a long time. Even though we try to ignore or evade it a lot of times it's doesn't change the fact. Having entertainers become successful doesn't change the fact. You still—and personally that kind gets on my nerves when people want to point to entertainers as the reason that we don't have issues that you say we have. Caca. Name me people outside of entertainment. Can you name me more than ten? Probably not. Are there more than ten? Yeah. You won't be able to name them. You see what I'm saying. Only people ever presented to us as being successful: entertainers. People are out here to make people entertainment, sports, or some type of performing arts, acting, singing, dancing, or athletic venture. They don't celebrate our scientists, don't celebrate our genius, don't celebrate—Why? Is it not happening? It's happening, it is definitely happening would have been—but it doesn't go noticed, even now. And that's even saying the current contributions to society not a—You would only acknowledge the things that benefit you, or make you feel comfortable in that, that exposition. So that, to me, AW: And it kind of ties back to what you were saying earlier. Like that's why the museum is so important. �Corey Clayton CC: That is precisely why it's important. It’s all full circle. So it all ties back in, some people say "and is that all you're talking about?" No! That's all there is. If we don't correct this human problem that we have it ain’t going to be much longer. Like, I'm not super convinced that a lot of that don't tie into our abuse of the planet. We don't take care of each other, let alone the planet. If we would understand how to talk to each other, you can take care of the planet, because you wouldn't worry about you. You wouldn't be thinking about just using everything up and not caring about the next generation. The rest of this thing is the same way. And I think this: the importance of that museum is for future generations. It's easier to, you know, I forget who quoted that, but it's like, "it's easier to repair." I mean, "it's easier to fix children than to repair broken men." You know what I'm saying? So that's a true statement. This is for the kids. It's for the future generations. The younger generations, in my opinion already see through the malarkey. That's why they ain't really with it. You know what I mean? It was like the same kind of thing is going on when I was younger. We didn't really, we weren't doing, we weren't feeling the same things that our parents were feeling. Some of the status quo—nobody is trying to deal with the status quo and I ain’t trying to go along to get along. And that was the method of operation for a long time, going along to get along. For what? Go along and get along what? What do you mean by that? For real, like, no, because I can't do that. If I do that, then I'm co-signing that and I'm telling you it is alright to do me like that. It ain’t alright to do me like that. It ain’t going to be alright to do my daughter like that? My son? My nephew? Your children? It ain’t going to be alright to do that. So, we need to take a proactive stance. And everything doesn't have to be violent; but I don't understand why. We fight for this. We fight for that. But our most productive time in history, we were creating. Not destroying. We got to get back to that. We need to get back to creation and not destruction. Right now we want to fight about everything. Fight for this right. Fight for that. Okay, once you get it, then what? Can you stop fighting? That's all you know. So, we needed a paradigm shift. We need to go into a point where, "Hey, what can �Corey Clayton we do to build, how are we going to see tomorrow?” My children will see tomorrow. They are concerned about finite things, like making a whole lot of promises you can't keep i.e. climate change, i.e. Yada yada, yada. We've got a lot of issues and they will only get solved by us. Whatever your religious inclinations are, you have a creator or almighty or, or most high, or something that's greater than you. I think we all could, you know, with the exception of folks who claim to be atheist, but even in that they know it’s something. Might not have a term for it, however. We need to get to whatever source that is, and try to get right by it. Try to get back in the right, the right frequency. Like a radio, like Marconi figured out, you tune it in, you get it. You know what I mean? We just ain’t tuned in to the right frequency yet. So you know how it goes. AW: Well, I really just had those two extra questions. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit here and talk to me again. CC: Anytime you got the number, man, I ain’t going nowhere. I'll be here, you go to the service. I'll still be here. Pleasure meeting you, brother. AW: It was a pleasure meeting you too, sir. Thanks. MLL 8/29/22 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/39779/archive/files/97cc65c0f139e34c83a1e869f71da674.mp3?Expires=1779321600&Signature=c7xGR-2tuT2rxGRe%7Ezt8i1LTwFEXB6EN2KLePeLITNXbzu9Vqjpbhcygy9MQ2ncsZM%7El%7EAmgPBxJAYA6xZm7IZjq4gGFt0%7EM8-GHLkoUX0EE-k1gzP489XGjltS9%7EMvkqF-k2Tev5E-1M5KtN7tZd9dTZo-JP53zByq5XJMqwgKlHjwlzM%7Eu3QY0S0Oa%7EmFW5xNTx1fn926jB4Yep31XoC%7E-s1zei0IVKdy1HzWeRgnYclfOIUFVFgw9Dp0hFQ7u6t3P2ARsO7XmAjZuuGZZaBP81UQe6xJjuHELzVgkRhTPLtSAKjccJEE5HZ-HdSFjfe4B92cbi%7EfF11gFx51oCg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a89df2af4c58330be20635946bf34af6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource The oral histories in this collection were produced by The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel. Founded in 2008, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel seeks to deepen understanding of the Lowcountry’s rich history and culture through the gathering and presentation of recorded memories from area residents.<br /><h3>Search Tips</h3> Interviews may be browsed by scrolling to the bottom of this page and selecting "View all items".<br /><br />When using the search bar, we recommend putting quotations around your search term, and selecting the Boolean search option, as illustrated here:<br /><p><img src="https://gdurl.com/aYPj" alt="aYPj" /><br /><br />To view interviews of a specific theme, please see the search tips in each series below.</p> <h3><strong>The Citadel in War and in Peace<br /></strong></h3> With generous support from the <a href="http://www.schumanities.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Humanities Council of South Carolina</a>, The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel collected thirty interviews with Citadel alumni regarding their experiences during WWII. Journalist and historian Jack Bass conducted the interviews during the Fall of 2008.They serve as a powerful testament to the veterans' experiences and their critical contributions to the war effort.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- World War II"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Korean War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- Vietnam War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The Second Gulf War"</li> <li>"The Citadel in War and in Peace -- The War in Afghanistan"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Working Charleston</strong></h3> Working Charleston documents the on and off job experiences of the longshoremen and lawyers, the bartenders and carriage drivers, hospital aides and high tech workers who make Charleston among the nation's prime tourist destinations and vital centers of global trade.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /><ul><li>"Working Charleston"</li> <li>"Charleston City Workers"</li> <li>"Lowcountry Foodways"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</strong></h3> <span><span>These interviews explore how community activism continues to shape modern life in the South.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:</em><br /></span></span> <ul><li>"Charleston and the Long Civil Rights Movement</li> <li>"Civil rights movement--South Carolina"</li> <li>"African Americans--Civil Rights--South Carolina--Charleston"</li> </ul><a target="_blank" href="https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/193" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a> <h3><strong>Las Voces del Lowcountry</strong></h3> <span><span>This project is designed to raise the profile of the Hispanic/Latinos who call the Lowcountry home and to promote a rational and humane conversation regarding immigration, education, and employment policies.<br /><br /><em>*To search interviews in this series, use the following terms utilizing the Boolean search option:<br /></em></span></span> <ul><li>"Las Voces del Lowcountry"</li> <li>"Latin Americans--Southern States"</li> <li>"Hispanic Americans--Southern States"</li> </ul> <h3><strong>Women in World War II</strong></h3> <em>*To search this series, type "Women in World War II" into the search bar, using the Boolean search option.<br /></em> <ul><li>"Women in World War II"</li> <li>"Women--Employment History"</li> <li>"World War, 1939-1945--Participation, female"</li> </ul> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Weaver, Azi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Clayton, Corey Location The location of the interview Charleston, South Carolina Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Mp3 derivative audio created with Audacity software. Archival masters are WAV files. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 39 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Corey Clayton, Interview by Azi Weaver, 1 December 2021 Subject The topic of the resource African American engineers International African American Museum Description An account of the resource Corey Clayton is a College of Charleston graduate, University of Alabama Birmingham graduate, and a member of Omega PSI Phi Fraternity, Inc., who at the time of the interview worked for Brownstone Construction Group building the International African American Museum in Charleston, South Carolina. His interest in engineering goes back to the summers working for his grandfather and his father, both of whom were general contractors. Additionally, he always had an interest in history. When he learned that the International African American Museum was going to be built, he knew he had to be a part of that process and decided to work for Brownstone Construction Group, a Black owned company, as a Quality Control Manager. In the interview, Clayton remembers the college professors that guided him and provided readings that allowed him to understand better his history. Finally, he reflects on the museum's relevance to the region and the deep personal significance of playing a part in its coming to fruition. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Charleston Oral History Program at the Citadel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Working Charleston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Citadel Archives & Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-12-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Materials in The Citadel Archives & Museum Digital Collections are intended for educational and research use. The user assumes all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of copyright. For more information contact The Citadel Archives & Museum, The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, 29409. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Charleston (S.C.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://citadeldigitalarchives.omeka.net/items/show/2006